The recent scandal in Germany compounds what I have been trying to say all along. Sharia law supercedes common law to a Muslim and political correctness "in high places" makes us all an open target for a Religion belonging in the middle ages. Give me your take on this. What about you Jeehad do you support the Koran in this matter.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070322/wl_afp/germanyjusticeislam_070322132641
regards Mustardseed
Religious laws have 0% value compared to laws of a country, unless they are the same like in some Arabian countries. Its idiotic to take a religious text and put it above the law.
What if I sacrifice my kid and say I was just following the Old Testament to appease God?
Absolutely...............could not agree more. What about YOU Jeehad do you support Sharia in western countries
I also totally agree Mydral.
But there's one thing worth thinking about....
The laws of a country are mostly based on religious laws to begin with.
This is why we often see big discrepancies between the laws of western countries and those of middle-eastern countries.
Quote from: James S on March 27, 2007, 23:09:40
I also totally agree Mydral.
But there's one thing worth thinking about....
The laws of a country are mostly based on religious laws to begin with.
This is why we often see big discrepancies between the laws of western countries and those of middle-eastern countries.
The United States is not a "Christian country", but those who say that there is no Judeo/Christian influence on those Europeans who first settled there and set up their governments are ignorant of history. Their beliefs first shaped the whole American sense of justice and ethics. DH
looool Every Scholar nowadays knows that the verse that allegedly allows "wife beating" means to leave! The word Darb has multiple meanings and by understanding the root word of such we know what it truly means. It actually means to reject or leave, Therefore on the basis of "wife beating" God says that if she cheats on you at least twice you are allowed to leave the relationship.
"The Arabic word used in Noble Verse 4:34 above is "idribuhunna", which is derived from "daraba" which means "beat". The thing with all of the Arabic words that are derived from the word "daraba" is that they don't necessarily mean "hit". The word "idribuhunna" for instance, could very well mean to "leave" them. It is exactly like telling someone to "beat it" or "drop it" in English."
Taken directly from an article on the arabic language written by doctor tariq al suaidan. Now is it really a erligions fault for a mans misunderstanding of the religious system?? Can I blame Americans for misunderstanding the role Bush played on the role of Iraq and solely blame the deaths of innocent Iraqis on them? NO I cant... Secondly, Shariah law is actually a democratic system.
"...Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them...(The Noble Quran, 2:231)"
"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:128)"
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"
He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)"
"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"
"And among God's signs is this: He created for you mates from amongst yourselves (males as mates for females and vice versa) that you might find tranquillity and peace in them. And he has put love and kindness among you. Herein surely are signs for those who reflect. (The Noble Quran 30:21)"
"Women impure for men impure. And women of purity for men of purity. These are not affected by what people say. For them is forgiveness and an honorable provision. (The Noble Quran 24:26)"
The Islamic empire was a system known as the caliphite which allowed the people to vote for a leader. The system compared to the other systems present at that era seemed very noble in the lights of such an age. Now, shuld we incorporate the laws of the babylonians? The laws of the israelites during exile? The laws of the romans? No, they are past civilizations, they are past laws to rule mankind and seem barbaric in the lights of modern day. But lets be real here..... the Study of an Islamic system and a democratic system are really very similiar. There was a lecture I went to in Toronto on this topic. It stated how the system of sharia law actually is not implemenmted today in society. NO COUNTRY HAS AN ISLAMIC SYSTEM NOT EVEN IRAN!! An Islamic system must have a caliphite which I do not see any of this today. The laws for punishment of execution and jail time is permissible but under certain circumstances. execution must be done after a terrible deed that the person commited such as murder, or possibly rape. Although, YOU MUST BE 100% SURE OF THE INTENTION AND CRIME COMMITED. There are also many rulings which explain such consequetive actions. I'm pretty sure if the western societies governments were more lineant on punishing people instead of offering an easy way out of it would set a good example for people. Look at Saudia Arabia.. although the system is a monarchy(which is against Islamic beliefs) it still offers some views on islamic law. Such as, death if one was to murder... Such as Death as to someone was to rape. The thing I see in such a country is that the rape and murder rate is one of the lowest in the world. It bears witness to the effectievness of such a system.. although, there are some aspects to this system which I think are unislamic and nowhere in the Islamic religion overule such doins. Such as... women not driving cars? The Quran CLEARLY shows that man and women are equal! So in retrospect, I think all modern politics is corrupt and that the political systems people try and convey are to tehre own humanly desires and not of thd divine... hope I answered your questions.
I think that shows how much religious doctrines can vary in interpretations.
The obvious concern there is who's doing the interpreting and what kind of political influence they have.
Once again this comes back to the core messages at the heart of all religions being about love, oneness and equality, but the application of religion by those in positions of power seem to be completely the opposite.
I agree with you completely James. The danger is the interpretation of religious doctrines and not the religion itself. I dont agree with the use of religious "leaders" in any religion. Because there opinions and interpretations get projected throughought the community allowing a change in the society. In Islam when a matter is not sure of we are obliged to say allahu a3lam(Only God knows), I think that the people who perform these terrible acts are presuming and unlearned about the Islamic scriptures. I don't think that we need to literly TAKE AWAY Islam from these people, but rather teach them it... The Taliban,Alqaeda,and various groups in war should not be turned away from Islam but rather learned. I think this is the solution to stop these crimes, and injustices, become learned in the religion. Now, in the matter of shariah. During the rise of the Muslims through ought the world. It was apart of this religious law that people of all colours and skins may live among eachother. In many Muslim countries, Jews,Christians, and Arabs lived side by side among eachother without persecution. Court orders would be taken according to the plaintiffs religious beliefs. Churches, synogogues and palces of worship were permitted. I just wanted to emphasize that the Sharia doctrine governing people many centuries ago was actually quiet humane and modern in the eyes of the community. When spain was reclaiemd by the Christians, the Queen Isabella actually kicked out all Muslims and Jews and allowed ONLY roman catholics to be apart of the country...... Now on the basis of woman. I agree with you that there few countries which do not give woman equal rights to men, but I will disagree that this is an islamic doctrine. In Islam women have a choice whether they marry, wear the scarf, get a job, drive a acr etc etc. But, can you really say that solely afghani women are being treated badly? With all due respect, take a look at the USA. The rapes being done to women, the pornography and blatant uncovering of skin on woman? The Divorce, abuse, and untreatment can be FAR WORSE THEN MANY MUSLIM COUNTRIES. You need to understand it is not MUSLIM MEN FORCING WOMEN TO WEAR THE SCAR, but it is they who choose to. The "burqa" is not mandatory and it simply tells men to look at my mind and not my body. Personally, I'd choose a sharia then a Bush and Blair democracy....
What was that about a crooked rib? lol
My turn to agree with you completely Jeehad.
QuoteIn Islam when a matter is not sure of we are obliged to say allahu a3lam(Only God knows), I think that the people who perform these terrible acts are presuming and unlearned about the Islamic scriptures.
The Christian phrase "it's the will of God" applies very much here as well. It's as if blind acceptance to what a particular church leader says is far more preferable than seeking out the will of God for one's self.
What certainly doesn't help here is the churche's influence over people's education. Something anyone who attended catholic schools will attest to.
The history of the catholic church is most definitely written in blood, as muslims living in the middle ages experienced.
For those who would wish to point the finger at Muslim groups for the inhumane treatment of others, a good look at the beliefs and actions of Western governments, particularly that of the US is in order.
I think whichever religion is used by a dictator to rally people to thier twisted cause is typically only determined by which country they were born in.
One interesting thought here, people in western worlds criticise eastern (middle eastern) religions for the poor treatment of women. My sister - Australian born, lived for 8 years in Japan - a country that has a mix of Buddhist, Shintoist and basically atheist beliefs. Their treatment of women there is terrible. Japanese Women are treated as second class citizens, and foriegn women are treated much worse than that.
Blessings,
James.
That was an enlightening post, which you have written James. I completely 100% agree with you. It is not the religion itself, which is in danger! Dictators and men of power like to use people's beliefs to stir them into there own wills instead of Gods wills. Unfortunately the people who fall for such actions are unlearned about the religion itself. Lets not even blame Islam for the treatment of women. Any historian, or one learned in Middle Eastern culture will tell you about the call to Islam. Before Islam spread in Arabia, the country itself was engulfed with barbaric behavior. Women would be raped at will. Female newborns would be buried alive, many women were forced into marriage at young ages. Muhammad saw the evil in the society and god taught him ACCORDINGLY FROM THE QURAN to rid all this behavior. How does a religion, which abolished the mistreatment of women turn out to be accused for mistreating women? What my Muslim brothers and sisters are doing worldwide is not a good representation of Islam............
I don't believe it's coincidence that like Muhammad with his people, Jesus saw these atrocities happening among the Hebrews and tried to teach them to change their ways.
The sad irony is now we have the Christian religion founded by the Romans in around 300ad, with its patriarchal / male dominant views promoting women being subordinate and subservient to men whilst trying to convince people that this is "God's will" and sticking the teachings of Jesus in the middle of it as justification.
Quote from: James S on March 30, 2007, 20:19:47
The sad irony is now we have the Christian religion founded by the Romans in around 300ad, with its patriarchal / male dominant views promoting women being subordinate and subservient to men whilst trying to convince people that this is "God's will" and sticking the teachings of Jesus in the middle of it as justification.
You are right. What Jesus seems to have preached is much different than the Roman version that came out later.
Constantine was responsible for squashing all challengers to the "orthodox" theology of Athanasius. This squashing included the death of many versions of Christianity, which included several very creative theologies of the gnostics and various Jewish-Christian sects. However, most of these groups, including the majority of gnostics, were still patriarchal.
What's interesting to me is that there is some evidence that the earliest version of Christianity in Britain was more inclusive in leadership (female as well as male leadership) and was grounded very much in the goodness of creation and human nature. All of this changed after the Romans consolidated their power and influence in Britain. The Roman pattern changed everything -- from leadership (a move to solely patriarchal) to theology (Augustine's doctrine of original sin and corruption of creation replaced the Celtic idea of innate goodness in people and creation) to even architecture (Roman rectangular replaced the Celtic circle).
It makes you wonder who first took the message of Jesus to Britain. Whoever it was seems to have been more in tune with the Jesus of the Bible. Despite the patriarchal bias of those who put the Bible together, we still discover the Jesus who treated women as first-class humans along with the men. This message also seems to have struck a chord with the Druidic roots of Celtic spirituality, which was more egalitarian.
DH
Sharia deserves to be everywhere.
Ha Sharia. Gimme a break. Fredom of women, love and peace respect of religious differences and tolerance.
James do me a favour and spend a bit of time investigating Islam. Start with Aborgation. It is absolutely mindblowing to me that noone speaks up here. I have lived for decades in muslim countries, I know the reality as does Jeehad.
I dont want to discuss this with him anymore but James take some time to check it out Youtube, Islam and womens rights, Islam and voiolence, Islam and Jihad.............it goes on and on
Regards Mustardseed
Quote from: Mustardseed on March 31, 2007, 20:44:03
Ha Sharia. Gimme a break. Fredom of women, love and peace respect of religious differences and tolerance.
James do me a favour and spend a bit of time investigating Islam. Start with Aborgation. It is absolutely mindblowing to me that noone speaks up here. I have lived for decades in muslim countries, I know the reality as does Jeehad.
I dont want to discuss this with him anymore but James take some time to check it out Youtube, Islam and womens rights, Islam and voiolence, Islam and Jihad.............it goes on and on
Regards Mustardseed
The reality, whether you like it or not, is that only God has the right to Legislate, and that His legislation must be accepted. Anyone who refuses to accept a legislation from God on the basis that he personally sees it has 'inhumane' or barbaric, is in reality simply arrogant.
Quote from: abu-usaama on March 31, 2007, 20:47:23
The reality, whether you like it or not, is that only God has the right to Legislate, and that His legislation must be accepted. Anyone who refuses to accept a legislation from God on the basis that he personally sees it has 'inhumane' or barbaric, is in reality simply arrogant.
And what does Sharia say we / you should do with people who activly preach, lets say Christianity, in an Islamic country. They won't leave and won't stop preaching their religion tell me what does Sharia say should be done?
Quote from: Mustardseed on March 31, 2007, 20:57:11
And what does Sharia say we / you should do with people who activly preach, lets say Christianity, in an Islamic country. They won't leave and won't stop preaching their religion tell me what does Sharia say should be done?
Why does it matter? God's Legislation is God's Legislation. Noone can dispute with God's legislation.
"Is it the judgement of days of (preislamic) ignorance that they seek? And whom is better in judgement, than Allah, for people who have certain faith."
The Shariah is quite clear regarding the issue you brought forth. Christians are not to be permitted to preach christianity publicly .
MustardSeed its pretty funny how you claim abrogation is "mind blowing" when you cant even reply to any of my rebuttles... OH yes your SOOOOOOOO educated! Im sure benny hinn would be proud of you. About the Roman council thing which you were speaking of. I totally agree and as does Islam! We believe that Jesus DID IN FACT teach the message exactly the same as Muhammad, and moses and noah, and abraham and soloman! But the people of that time eventually changed and corrupted the message! Christianity now is a complete transformation of the word of the roman council and the lost propogated words of the Romans who used it to suit there needs. When Islam came into its final form it said to turn worship away from Jesus and Redirect it to God almighty, and rule under Gods law. In Islam we are not permitted to rule under any man made government ssytems. Tell me MustardSeed is democracy really working in Iraq??? Is demcoracy really working in chechna? Is it even working in America? Do you really think people have freedom of speech? Do you really think people are able to walk through the streets without fear? Just look at your own society before judging an Islamic doctrine which you have no knowledge about. Your interpretation of shariah is that portrayed by your opressive and closed miknded government, you are the same as them! A zealost bigot who's linear train of thought forbids them to learn the truth. Its a shame you don't get it...
Hi Mustardseed,
I have absolutely no doubt that women are being very poorly treated in Muslim countries.
I do believe that many women have been forced to wear burqas and be subjugated by innapropriate laws and restrictions rather than doing so by choice.
I feel though that these human rights issues come back to the interpretation and implimentation of islamic teachings by ruling parties rather than the spiritual roots of the teachings, just as I feel many christian teachings have been wrongly interpreted and implimented to diminish people's rights.
Mustardseed just wanna tell you you are such a nice guy :-D sorry just had to ......
What is the problem with women and skin or wrists or hair?, like , we were born naked not furred lol
And really, if a women is covered, isnt that even more fantasy creating for the men?.
Come on, get real.
The muslim men i speak to on the internet, drive me insane with wanting to talk about sex and they get really rude and obnoxious. They seem very frustrated. I dont seem to get that from non muslim men.
BTW do the women wear undergarments? lol.
That would drive men crazy in the west, if the women covered themselves with no undergarments lol.
And why cant muslims sing solo, has to be in groups only?
And why is the answer to all muslims problems the death penality?
And not one religion has proved the existance of God yet, so what is this about the undisputable word of God?
We dont know what God is yet. The only clue we have is to look in a mirror.
Paola I shall try explaining all your questions to you inshallah ^^. First of all, let us judge the religion and not the followers! For I do agree there are people who are distorted and twisted in there views and ideas but it should not be a representation of Islsm and may God spare mercy on them adn direct them to a riteous path. Anotehr thing, the covering for women is optional! Many people in the west believe that Men force there women to cover up but this is nto the case. The prophet Muhammad specifically states that the covering is a choice and onyl performed if she is right. Islam gives equal rights to both men and women! So, if you chose to wear a pink bag instead of a black one even though it contradicts the fashion trend its no problem correct? See, Muslims in general are pious people.... Oour struggle to liev what God has chosen contineus through out our lives. Read my previous posts on laws and such since I do not want to repeat them:P Another improtant fact, the reason why we believe Islam is the indisputable truth is because the Quran (the revelation sent down to Muhammad) contains amazing things which appeals to many people. Islam is the fastest growing in the world(conversion rate), so thinka bout it for a second if it truly was an opressive religion then why are people turning to it? The existence of God almighty is all around you, you testify unto yourself of his existence. The earth, the trees the wind the stars testify unto tiself of the existence of God almighty the supreme the most merciful. So ask yourself where did you come from? Why are you here? Learn and read and inshallah may God open the path for you and show you the reality of his existence.
Peace and blessings.
Ok, I'm feeling the urge to rattle the cages of religious "truth" here.
Islam is most definitely not the fastest growing faith in terms of conversion rate.
Sorry Jeehad, that old argument got blown out of the water a long time ago.
That "fact" came from the Reader's Digest Almanac published back in 1983 which claimed a global growth rate of 235%
The truth of the matter was revealed by UN global census surveys that showed the growth in Islam is directly attributable to the population growth rate in countries, many being 3rd world countries, where Islam is the main religion.
Since the late 90's, Wicca or Neopaganism is actually the fastest growing faith in terms of actual conversions. Between 1990 and 2001 wicca has experienced a growth rate of 143%.
A "quick reference" source of info about this can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion
The second thing I'm going to pick on here is the Qu'ran being "indisputable truth".
The only piece of literature or information available that can support the claim the Qu'ran is the indisputable truth is the Qu'ran itsself.
And guess what? The Bible makes exactly the same claim
So since both the Bibile AND the Qu'ran claim to be the indesputable truth, which one is correct?
While I find there to be much beauty and wisdom contained within the pages of both books, it's this kind of sheer arrogance from the religions surrounding them that keeps me away.
James then I challenge you to find me at least one error in the Holy Quran? Or a contradiction?and for every error I shall conjure at least 10 in the Bible. The fact is that the Holy Quran remains unchanged and errorless? This is quiet funny because even modern day literture will have some sort of contradictions, especially religious texts.
Islam is actually the fastest growing religion in the world...
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/
http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/a100501b.html
Data for Islam reveal that the growing number of Muslims is due primarily to the higher than average birth-rates and consequent population growths of Muslim countries and communities.
In 2006, countries with a Muslim majority had an average population growth rate of 1.8% per year (when weighted by percentage Muslim and population size).[9] This compares with a world population growth rate of 1.12% per year.[10]
According to the World Christian Encyclopaedia, between 1990 and 2000, Islam received around 865,558 converts each year. This compares with an approximate 2,883,011 converts each year for Christianity during the same period.[6]
The World Almanac Book of Facts 1935 estimated 209,020,000 Muslims in the World. The Readers Digest Almanac 1983, estimated 700,000,000, Comparing these two estimates gives an average annual growth of 5% or 10,228,750 for Islam over these 48 years.[11] But note that this value is as unreliable as these rates are calculated from two separate sources, which may have used different counting rules.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion#Wicca
"James then I challenge you to find me at least one error in the Holy Quran? Or a contradiction?"
You know I might just be wasting a great deal of time I could be spending doing something far more useful and enjoyable than arguing religion with a zealot (like getting my nipples pierced or reading the local tax laws), but here, cop a few of these:
(No their not mine. A great many other people have done just as you have asked me, so this was definitely a case of "Google is my friend")
How many days did it take to create Heavens and Earth ?
Quran 7: 54 Your gurdian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran 10: 3 Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran 11:7 He it is Who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran-25:29: He Who created the heavens and earth and all that is between, in Six Days
The above verses clearly state that God created the heaven and Allah created the heaven and the Earth in 6 days. But the verses below stated-
Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
Quran 41: 10 He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS...
Quran 41: 12 So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and ...
So which is it, six, four or two?
Allah's Days Equal to 1000 Years or 50,000 Years?
Quran 22: 47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning. Quran-32:5: To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be a thousands years of your rekoning
Quran 70: 4 The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is Fifty thousands years.
I guess Muhammad wasn't too good at Math!
Koran teaches us that the Sun sets in a muddy spring:
Quran 18: 86 Till, when he (the traveller Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring...
Quran 18: 90 Till, when he reached the rising-place of the Sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter from it.
Serious scientific errors here! Firstly, it is scientifically accepted fact that, the Sun never go down in a muddy spring. Secondly, this seems to presuppose a FLAT Earth, otherwise how can there be an extreme point in the West or in the East? A sunrise there would be basically just the same as at any other place on this earth, at land or sea. It would still look as if it is setting "far away". It does say, that he reached THE PLACE where the Sun sets and in his second Journey the place where it rises.
Does Earth Spread Out Like Carpet (flat)?
Quran 15: 19 And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon Mountains firm and immovable;
Quran 78: 6-7 Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs (anchor)?
Allah was sure that earth is flat like a carpet and mountains are there to anchor the earth so that earth does not shake with us. Allah is really merciful scientist.
Is Man Created From Clotted Blood?
Quran-23:14: Then fashioned We the drop (semen) a CLOT OF CONGEALED BLOOD then fashioned We the Clot a little lump (foetus), fashioned We the little lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators. ( Bengali translated Quran said: "Zamaa't Raokto theeke Manoosh banieesi" And this Ayat has been repeated again and again throughout the Quran ) Quran-75:38: Then he becomes a CLOT; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned...
Quran 96: 2 Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood
There are serious scientific problems here:
Blood clot cannot grow into anything. This idea also came from the Greek. Aristotle erroneously believed that, humans are originated from the action of male semen upon female menstrual blood, which is absolutely an incorrect assumption. Quran's assertion on Clot (alaqa) is completely wrong about human development, since there is absolutely no stage during which the embryo consists of a clot. The only situation in which an embryo might appear like a clot is during a miscarriage, in which case the clotted blood that is seen to emerge (much of which comes from mother) is solidified and by definition no longer alive. Therefore, if ever an embryo appeared to look like a clot it would never develop any further into a human; it would be a dead mass of bloody miscarrying flesh. Since Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had some thirteen wives it is entirely possible that he would be very familiar with miscarriages.
This also highlights another point that I believe Gandalf has made a time or two. Much of Muhammad's scientific insight was not give to him by Allah, but by Greek scientists and philosophers that came along many years before him. This example above is a mistake that was "coincidentally" also made by Aristotle.
Ok, and here's a real biggie for you...
Is religion compulsive or is it not?
Quran 02: 256 There is no Compulsion in religion....
OR
Quran 9: 29 Fight those who do not profess the true faith(Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.
Quran 9: 5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush....
Quran 47: 4 When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads....
Quran 2: 191 And slay (kill) them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
Quran 8: 65 O Apostle ! rouse the believers to the fight of....unbelievers.
Very often apologetics claim that, Islam is a religion of peace and there is no compulsion. Yet punishment of an apostate in Islam is, of course, death penalty.
Ok this didn't actually take me long at all. I'm sure I could have found many more but I do dislike posting long boring posts of words that are not my own. There is an entire legion of theologins, philosophers and religious researchers that have spent many years studying both the Bible and the Qu'ran and have found massive errors and contradictions in both. I figured better to leave it to people more knowledgeable about this stuff than I.
What I can and will tell you about my own views of the Qu'ran are this:
I've said before there is much spiritual wisdom and beauty in both the Qu'ran and the Bible. But it is my belief that these words have been defiled by the religious leaders (and the blind followers) that promote them.
My spirit, my soul, that part of me that is God-self cannot abide by the teachings of men, of the man made religions that oppose the laws of love with their egotistical fear based manipulations.
So tell me Jeehad, are you prepared to accept that there are errors and inconsistencies in the writings of Muhammad, or, just like a Christian zealot, are you led by blind faith?
Although you have made some very insightful posts Jeehad, you still do come across like a blinded religious zealot, so please excuse me if I choose not to debate religion with you any more. Not only do I find it pointless, I'm also not actually really interested in trying to change your mind about your beliefs. Only you can do that.
My role here in these kind of topics is to bring a bit of balance back and stop zealots from pushing their religions on people in a manner unchecked.
*raises hand*
I think I can help ya with the nipple piercing... :-D
HeHe James ^^ With all due respect I shall begin refuting your "contradictions" :P First of all,
How many days did it take to create Heavens and Earth ?
Upon creation, the Quran is a sequence ofe xplaining Gods creation in a period of 6 ayam(in total) 1 ayam means a period. Most Arabic translations use thje word period for we do not believe the earth was created in 6 literal days but rather 6 stages or periods. Secondly, if you notice the term " the heavens and earth " used in the description of the 6 ayam. The term heavens and earth refers to literlly everything! Now if you have noticed the otehr side of the contradiction only states either the earth(which was createdd in 2 ayams) or the mountains and nourhsjmen on the 4th day and the atmoshperic layers in 2 ayams :P SO ine ssence, 6 ayam refers to the total amount for creation and the other ayams refers to the creation of that particular thing mentioned.
Allah’s Days Equal to 1000 Years or 50,000 Years?
Allah’s Days Equal to 1000 Years or 50,000 Years?
Quran 22: 47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning. Quran-32:5: To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be a thousands years of your rekoning
Quran 70: 4 The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is Fifty thousands years.
lol the verses are talking about completely differnt things....
Sun sets in mudy springs?
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503547494&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar
refer to that plz
Earth is spread out?
First of all you shall notice the (like a carpet) in
Quran 15: 19 And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon Mountains firm and immovable;
lol nowhere in the Quran does it mention anything about being flat like a carpet. Allah clearly is saying that he spread out the earth, although in many verses we see allah describe the earth as an egg shape. The Quran makes clear draws that the earth is a rather spherical object.
Is Man Created From Clotted Blood?
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=102
This will surprise you:P
compulsion in religion?
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=34770&ln=eng
If you truly cared about my answer then you would read the links:P Every so called error or contradiction is actually not valid at all and are easily explained. Read the holy Quran and you shall see what I am talking about.
Jeehad,
You gave me EXACTLY the answer I expected.
So predictable.
See, I've played this game.
16 years in the Christian church defending the Bible against "nonbelievers". Defending against exactly the kind of accusation you made a couple of posts ago.
The answers and defensive arguments Bible scholars have concocted over the years are an artform with the most astounding twists in logic used to defend a logically indefensible position.
But here's the rub -
Just like Christians defending the Bible, the only defense you can ever possibly provide are interpretations of the Qu'ran itsself. NOTHING exists to support the Qu'ran other than the Qu'ran.
I had a look at the links you gave me and all I saw were interpretations of the Qu'ran. Nothing more than that.
See, this is one of the main reasons people are getting so fed up with the Piscean Age religions. They no longer accept the circular arguments provided by their scholars. Blind faith is not enough anymore. People are now better informed than they used to be. They have greater freedom of information and freedom of choice than previous generations. More and more people are also getting completely fed up with the different religions arguing against each other over who's right and who's wrong, and worse, fighting over it.
Are you in any ways able to see Jeehad that the kind of responses you gave me when I presented contradictions in the Qu'ran are EXACTLY the same as the kind of responses a Christian zealot would give me if I pointed out flaws in the Bible?
It is EXACTLY the same. Same mentality, same blind faith, same complete unwillingness to look outside the box you've placed your beliefs into.
So this is where I come back to the point I've been trying to put across. What makes you, a follower of Islam any different to a follower of Christianity?
Don't go saying because your way is the truth and you can prove it. You can't prove your way is the truth and the Christianity is false any more than Christians can prove their way is the truth and Islam is false. And if the figures Runlola posted are still accurate, then the Christians have the Muslims outnumbered, and isn't that used as a classic argument over who's right and who's wrong?
Well, why not? it's every bit as good as the kind of "logical arguments" you're presenting.
On the Astral Pulse Forum Jeehad, you are dealing with a great many members who have spent their time following one of the major religions, and have walked away from religions because they no longer work for them. These members have learned to think for themselves and learned to find their own personal path to connect with their own Divine truth. People like this are wise to the kind of arguments you're trying to present. You really do need to know that it just doesn't work on people who are capable of independent thought.
Talanay,
Aren't you wonderful. I don't know what to say? Wow, but... umm... we're both married and...
Admittedly, it does sound like a lot of fun, and my nipples are getting a little... ahhhh....
Heh. :-D
i have an idea. lets combine the bible and the quran (since the basically tell the same story(ies) but differant characters at certian places) in to one book - then we can safe on paper, copy and paste - also allot less contradictions and My Book is right yours is wrong... :roll:
Sometime i get christians coming to my house, or seventh days or something, and i ask if they can discuss God without quoting the bible, and they leave quickly lol.
I just wonder, what good are these mindless parables, in todays world that needs action, not re-action.
Btw , i want my nipple pierced!
Quote from: Paola on April 08, 2007, 19:42:39
Btw , i want my nipple pierced!
lol... thats propbably the part that sticks out most in this passage...
Personally, I think it is up to every person to develop their own beliefs on the world. It's pure arrogance to say that one particular group is God's choosen one, are we not all his children?
Right it's settled then.
No more messing about, no more arguing about who's right and who's wrong, no more mucking about with misinterpretations.
Paola and I are getting our nipples pierced!
You up for it Talanay?
:wink:
LOL! Line 'em up boys! :-D
A good man requires no laws, a bad man follows no laws,
I have no idea who said that, i think it was some buddhist, probably the same buddhist that said Buddhism can take one to hell.
Just thought id throw that in. :-P
Quote from: Jeehad on March 28, 2007, 23:57:41
looool Every Scholar nowadays knows that the verse that allegedly allows "wife beating" means to leave! The word Darb has multiple meanings and by understanding the root word of such we know what it truly means. It actually means to reject or leave, Therefore on the basis of "wife beating" God says that if she cheats on you at least twice you are allowed to leave the relationship.
"The Arabic word used in Noble Verse 4:34 above is "idribuhunna", which is derived from "daraba" which means "beat". The thing with all of the Arabic words that are derived from the word "daraba" is that they don't necessarily mean "hit". The word "idribuhunna" for instance, could very well mean to "leave" them. It is exactly like telling someone to "beat it" or "drop it" in English."
Taken directly from an article on the arabic language written by doctor tariq al suaidan. Now is it really a erligions fault for a mans misunderstanding of the religious system?? Can I blame Americans for misunderstanding the role Bush played on the role of Iraq and solely blame the deaths of innocent Iraqis on them? NO I cant... Secondly, Shariah law is actually a democratic system.
"...Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them...(The Noble Quran, 2:231)"
"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:128)"
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"
He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)"
"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"
"And among God's signs is this: He created for you mates from amongst yourselves (males as mates for females and vice versa) that you might find tranquillity and peace in them. And he has put love and kindness among you. Herein surely are signs for those who reflect. (The Noble Quran 30:21)"
"Women impure for men impure. And women of purity for men of purity. These are not affected by what people say. For them is forgiveness and an honorable provision. (The Noble Quran 24:26)"
The Islamic empire was a system known as the caliphite which allowed the people to vote for a leader. The system compared to the other systems present at that era seemed very noble in the lights of such an age. Now, shuld we incorporate the laws of the babylonians? The laws of the israelites during exile? The laws of the romans? No, they are past civilizations, they are past laws to rule mankind and seem barbaric in the lights of modern day. But lets be real here..... the Study of an Islamic system and a democratic system are really very similiar. There was a lecture I went to in Toronto on this topic. It stated how the system of sharia law actually is not implemenmted today in society. NO COUNTRY HAS AN ISLAMIC SYSTEM NOT EVEN IRAN!! An Islamic system must have a caliphite which I do not see any of this today. The laws for punishment of execution and jail time is permissible but under certain circumstances. execution must be done after a terrible deed that the person commited such as murder, or possibly rape. Although, YOU MUST BE 100% SURE OF THE INTENTION AND CRIME COMMITED. There are also many rulings which explain such consequetive actions. I'm pretty sure if the western societies governments were more lineant on punishing people instead of offering an easy way out of it would set a good example for people. Look at Saudia Arabia.. although the system is a monarchy(which is against Islamic beliefs) it still offers some views on islamic law. Such as, death if one was to murder... Such as Death as to someone was to rape. The thing I see in such a country is that the rape and murder rate is one of the lowest in the world. It bears witness to the effectievness of such a system.. although, there are some aspects to this system which I think are unislamic and nowhere in the Islamic religion overule such doins. Such as... women not driving cars? The Quran CLEARLY shows that man and women are equal! So in retrospect, I think all modern politics is corrupt and that the political systems people try and convey are to tehre own humanly desires and not of thd divine... hope I answered your questions.
Hi,
With all due respect, we have no clue what the criminal statistics really are in Saudi Arabia because they are a closed society with the government hiding almost everything bad that takes place. For instance, the Sauds always lied about their statistics on AID's victims, sometimes even claiming to not have any AID's cases at all. YIKES! No kidding. This is what they had in the CIA Facts Books. Some other Islamic countries did the very same thing, only they were a little more realistic about the number of cases in their countries. However, years of denial, also brought on years of ignoring the problem, which caused AID's to become either an epidemic or on the verge of becoming an epidemic in many Islamic countries, which forced them to admit the truth so they could finally do something about it. We also saw in Egypt not long ago how the men on the streets suddenly started chasing the women and trying to rape them. We saw this very same thing in Saudi Arabia a few years ago. Women could walk down the streets where I live in bathing suits and not get attacked by men. When a government runs the media, etc, in a country, there are many things that are never told. With the Internet in this day and time, though, things are beginning to leak out. They still are not like the western countries, having all of our dirty laundry hung very high for the world to constantly see. But there is no difference as far as morals are concerned in any Islamic country today and in any free western country. I have had this conversation with many Muslims who have tried to claim this very same thing and they have gotten barbarded with the truth. The only difference is our dirty laundry is viewed and talked about and they are constantly trying to hide theirs. This was also brought out when Muslims were making fun of the so-called Christian bishops that molested some children. A quick google search shows this is a major problem in the Islamic schools. The only difference is that it is probably done much more in the Islamic countries because they still do not protect the victims so the victims are usually either intimidated into keeping their mouths shut, paid off for keeping their mouths shut, or they tell and are made out to be the bad person. And sometimes acid is thrown in their faces for telling as we saw the brave boy from Pakistan being interviewed from his hospital bed and telling all about it. One school in Pakistan had like 1200 molesting complaints in one year. Also, Islamic countries have immorals that are different from the western free world. For instance, we saw how the girl's school caught on fire in Saudi Arabia a few years ago and the religious police would not allow the girls to come out of the burning building because they were not properly dressed. I can't recall now how many girls burnt up in that school, but that was definitely a huge embarrassment for the Sauds, and rightly so.
Unfortunately, most of these immoral problems/crimes are universal, but denying that they exist or saying the Islamic countries are somehow more moral for some reason or another, is simply not true. Through many years of mistakes, we finally learned that cutting off body parts, etc, and much more harsher punishments do not make people behave much better. It's when society accepts the bad things that makes them much worse. The US and Europe have a lot of crime because we have had a whole lot of illegal immigrants coming into our countries. Most of them come with little to nothing.
I have talked with a whole lot of Muslims on this subject of being allowed to beat their wives and this is the very first time I have heard this one about interpreting it wrong. All of the Muslims I have talked to say this is used as a last resort and you are only to hit them lightly without making any marks. So they admit that it is true. Well, I hope they do come to the conclusion that it isn't interpreted correctly. However, the Muslims I have talked to about it speak both English and Arabic and, obviously, they have always interpreted this to mean you are allowed to hit your wife. Also, I have always read and I have always been told that the Caliphate is appointed by a certain group...like a council, and were never voted on by the people themselves. And the way I understand it, Islam can never divide religion and government. You cannot have a true free, peaceful, Democratic country without separating religion and government and without having a free media. The western free Democracies did not just dream all of these things up overnight. All of these ideas were based on many years of mistakes/failures/wrongdoings, and seperating religion from the government was one of their main themes. There is no way in the world anyone can have a religion as a country's religion and not have the minorities treated very unfairly and badly. If the government doesn't treat them badly, the people will. It's just human nature, and minorities were and are definitely treated very badly in most Islamic countries. There's always going to be someone treat the minorities bad if you make any group superior. Anytime throughout the history of the world that someone is made more superior in a country to others, it has been a disaster. Christians fought for many years because no one interprets any religious book in exactly the same way, therefore, you cannot make one group more superior to others and expect there to be peace and fairness. In fact, in looking at the Muslim world today, it looks much like the way the Christian western world used to be. Muslims have already made these very same mistakes. If they would take a good, honest look at their history, they would see that the Muslim world wasn't much different most of the time than the way we see it today. There were always other groups taking down others and many assassinations and wars going on in one place or another. The Muslim countries almost always end up with dictators because being ruled under dictators who rule with an iron fist is the only way to keep them from fighting one another for the power, just as it used to be in the Christian world. Also, Islam's leaders are given power for way too long a period of time, making it easy for their leaders to take over the country's army and, thus, turning into a dictatorship. I have seen Muslims trying to say they had the first Democracy, but they were very far from having a Democracy as we do today. I've even seen where some Muslims are trying to say America's founding fathers used Islam's system as some kind of an example. Then I have seen where some Muslims are trying to say that Muslims were in America first. Then I've seen some saying that Americans brought some Muslims over for slaves and that Islam helped shape America. The story gets bigger and bigger as time goes on. Before we know it, they will be saying that Muslims were with our founding fathers and told them how to write the constitution. I am sorry, but there is a reason why Muslims' history is the most controversial history in the world. Many Muslims rewrite their history, as well as everyone else's. I'm not sure why they have such a hard time admitting to their failures/mistakes/wrongdoings, but they do. The rest of the world admits to all of their failures/mistakes/wrongdoings. If you can't admit to them, you can't learn from them and will continue to repeat them over and over again, which is what we see Muslims in the Muslim world doing today.
Quote from: James S link=topic=25948.msg218060#msg218060 date=1176103288
Paola and I are getting our nipples pierced!
:wink:
/quote]
Meh, why not me too... lol, actually I have a really cool idea about a tattoo. Starting at my lower back/upper buttocks it would be tree roots that joined together into a trunk going up my spine, and in each please my corrisponding chakra embedded in the trunk... as it reaches its top, it'll branch out into two angel wings going back down my back... all of it being in a grey mettalic color except for the chakras...
Quote from: DebInUSA on April 12, 2007, 20:55:09
Hi,
With all due respect, we have no clue what the criminal statistics really are in Saudi Arabia because they are a closed society with the government hiding almost everything bad that takes place. For instance, the Sauds always lied about their statistics on AID's victims, sometimes even claiming to not have any AID's cases at all. YIKES! No kidding. This is what they had in the CIA Facts Books.........
Fanatics of any stripe cannot bear the truth and will do anything, including re-writing history, to suppress the truth. We've seen it over the centuries with fanatical religious sects, whether they be Christians or Muslims or otherwise; and we've seen it with fanatical political groups, such as Nazis and Communists. In the good ole US of A we've seen it in the past with the attempt to wipe out the Native American perspective things on things, and most recently we've seen it from some in their attempt to eliminate the spiritual/religious influences on our country from history books in public schools.
I appreciate the reminder, Deb. Fanatics come in all forms, and whoever wins gets to control the PR spin and write the history books. DH
Dear Posters
Just a last post before I start my trip. I see that Jeehad is still at it :-D and surprise surprise James actually took time to make some observations. Most of the points you brought up I have allready tried to bring up as well but used to and probably you will only get met with a virtual barrage of cut and pasted speeches transcripts and quotations..........it really seems that the old saying is true
You can take the monkey out of the tree but you cannot make him drop thye bananas.
I think thats how it goes. It does in honestly seem like a very futile job to attempt to argue Islam with a committed Muslim. Just like arguing Christianity with a Christian or arguing American forign politics with Rush Limbaugh. All you will get is words words words.........
All the best to you all.
Regards Mustardseed
PS wish me well I am scared :-(
Well wishes MS! I will say a prayer nightly. :) Pictures would be nice. :-D
Would love to post some but.........I forgot how I do that. Can anyone help me remember. I made it over safe, and had some amazing experiences. Heard voices, faces a force 10 storm for 10 days, and hit a whale. ha eventful to say the least.
Regards Mustardseed
Quote from: Mustardseed on July 09, 2007, 13:32:03
Would love to post some but.........I forgot how I do that. Can anyone help me remember. I made it over safe, and had some amazing experiences. Heard voices, faces a force 10 storm for 10 days, and hit a whale. ha eventful to say the least.
Regards Mustardseed
Whoa...... cool haha. Sorry for my childish outburst but thats pretty amazing hehe. Hitting a whale... now how does one do that lol. I get this picture of you beeing after Moby willy haha