Soul Retrievals: The Origin of an Idea

[James S]

Hi Berserk,

It is interesting to look at the origins of this practice from a Christian theological view. Unfortunately these texts don't really give much of an impression of it by comparison to the way those who actually practice soul retrievals have described it. When you say the Christian idea was abandoned, is this possibly due to a shift in thinking about astral projection perhaps?

Have you had a look at some of the posts on this site, particularly from the members Frank and Ginny, who have offered their service to the higher beings for the purpose of soul retrievals? Between them there are quite a few interesting stories of their work in this area.

Here are some posts on the subject:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1716

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1722

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1791

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3991

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4853

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5378

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5702

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6516

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7135

Regards,
James.

[Berserk]

Dear James,

From 170 to about 225 AD, a charismatic Christian movement, emerged that called itself the New Prophecy.  This movement, dominated by female leaders, reactivated the spiritual gifts commonly exercised in Paul's first century churches.  There were several female leaders in Paul's churches.  After 170 AD women were again prophesying and experiencing OBEs during public worship.  After the service their revelations were subjected to the critical discernment of the church leadership.  These women (e.g. Priscilla, Maximilla, and Quintilla)were excommnicated by the bishop of Rome.  They retalliated by  excommunicating him and then proceeded to appoint women as bishops in various places.  To muzzle these women and expel them from leadership roles, the Catholic church invoked the notion that divine revelation ended with the death of the apostles.   This contention, among others, was used to justify the closure of the New Testament canon to the books we have today.   The sexism that lurks in the background of this canonical closure raises the question of whether the church should consider adding modern revelatory books to the Bible.  It is hard to imagine this happening.  But after these women were muzzled and persecuted, the church's openness to exotic gifts like OBEs and prophecy virtually vanished for many centuries.  This can be considered the Alamo for female leaders in the early Catholic church.  After this period we no longer hear about the possibility of participation in soul retrievals.

Regards,
Berserk

[Palehorse]

Hi Berserk.

Great post, and a timely one for me.  I've been thinking a lot lately about soul retrievals, Christianity, and how the two might relate to each other.  It's so ironic to me that as much as Jesus' ministry was carried out in the spirit of setting people free from spiritual bondage... even literally, according to 1 Peter 3:19 as someone already pointed out... while at the same time, the religion that bears his name has put more people in bondage to fear than perhaps any other to date.  I'm thinking mainly of the idea of eternal torment, which I believe is probably the one concept that has done the most damage to individual lives and Christianity as a whole since it was brought into the Church years after the death of Christ.  If anyone needs to be "retrieved," I can only imagine there are millions of Christians and those influenced by them suffering in some sort of Hell that we've created.

Unfortunately, to even entertain ideas of AP or soul retrieval is, to many modern Christians, inherently sinful.  What this means is that if there is indeed a focus 23 with people suffering therein, then they're going to be there for quite a while, because the very people who could help them out the most aren't interested.

This puts someone like me in an interesting position.  I think I'm somewhat unique in that I'm very much a Christian (albeit a rather unorthodox one) with a strong interest in theology, history, scriptures and all related subjects, to the point that I've made it my major and career goal.  At the same time, I'm completely open to the possibility of all the paranormal things we discuss in these forums, which most Christians don't seem to be.  I'd think that this would put me in a rather ideal position to be able to relate to someone that is stuck in some sort of hellish belief-system limbo thanks to the more distorted and fear-based side of Christian theology.  I know from personal experience what that kind of bondage is like during physical life; I can only imagine what it must be like in an environment where beliefs create reality.

All this has lead me to wonder if I'm being prepared to play such a role at some point in the future.  I'd certainly love for that to be the case, as I have a *very* strong desire to help set others free of all the fear and suffering my own religion has caused, but I suppose I should probably worry about just being able to get out of my body to begin with.  Siiiigh.  Heh.

[exothen]

Hmm...soul retrieval, baptism for the dead, and Christianity.

First, using the verse (1 Corinthians 15:29) where Paul writes of people being baptised for the dead is very obscure. This practice is not mentioned elsewhere and Paul doesn't approve of it. It is extremely dangerous in biblical interpretation to get doctrine based on very verse, particularly a very obscure one.

Second, Hebrews 9:27 states that "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment." This is consistent with other teachings in the NT that man only gets one shot and then faces judgment, the outcome of which is eternal. In other words, there is no soul retrieval, if I am understanding that term correctly.

[Mustardseed]

quote:Originally posted by exothen
First, using the verse (1 Corinthians 15:29) where Paul writes of people being baptised for the dead is very obscure. This practice is not mentioned elsewhere and Paul doesn't approve of it. It is extremely dangerous in biblical interpretation to get doctrine based on very verse, particularly a very obscure one.

Second, Hebrews 9:27 states that "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment." This is consistent with other teachings in the NT that man only gets one shot and then faces judgment, the outcome of which is eternal. In other words, there is no soul retrieval, if I am understanding that term correctly.

Hi Ex
A few observations. First I would agree with you that basing a doctrine on one scripture is a bit ...say dodgy, however it is not compleately unheard of. Allthough I have some questions about babtisms for the dead the connecting doctrine of Universal Restitution is not only based on one scripture but indeed a lot. This has been a much debated topic through the ages.
Your second question about "it is appointed for man once to die and after this the judgement" qouting from memmory here, does not state what judgement!!!!It seems clear that there are many judgements, the Great white throne judgement and the book of life etc but this could in my opinion be the judgement that we ourselves make on our own life when we see Jesus. It seems that all of us will get the opportunity to review our lives and Judge ourselves.  It is not specified, as I recall

Regards Mustardseed

[shedt]

Dear Berserk,

what a wonderful post. I look forward to learning from what you share here.

It's nice to see a new member here who is well versed in the history of such events, and whom does not take the written word to be the absolute truth (or this is how it seems so far too me)

I look forward too reading more of your posts.

Palehorse- What you say strikes a cord within me, i would love to try and help others like this. I've read briefly about this on the Monroe Institutes site.

James- Thanks for the links !


-take care,

-shawn

[shedt]

I've read all the links James posted and now I'm hungrey for more !

I'm very interested in the phasing too. Are there other religions that have such beliefs now or before ?

[shedt]

I was doing some research on proxy baptisim and came across this:

http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id72.htm

quote:In the second-century Christian text entitled the Shepherd of Hermas we are told that the "they" were "apostles and teachers" (1987:130). Proxy work for the dead might even be alluded to in the Old Testament. Robert Millet and Joseph Fielding McConkie discuss a possible Old Testament foreshadowing of baptism for the dead:

There are scriptural, apocryphal, and historical references that evidence that these principles were understood anciently. . . . [A scriptural example] is found in this prophetic statement by Zechariah: "By the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth prisoners out of the pit wherein there is no water" (Zechariah 9:11). The pit is the spirit world, but what waters are necessary to free one from captivity? Why, the waters of vicarious baptism--a doctrine taught by Paul and restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith. (1986:156-158)

The sublime doctrine of baptism for the dead demonstrates the justice and completeness of the plan of salvation. Thus, even those who die without baptism will have the opportunity to receive this saving ordinance. The question is often posed, "What of those who died before Christ?" The restored gospel has the answer: They will be taught the gospel in the spirit world and can receive baptism as a result of proxy baptisms performed on the earth

very interesting I'll keep reading and trying to learn about the evolution of Christianity

[Mystic Cloud]

quote:Originally posted by Berserk

 The practice of soul retrievals in shamanism cannot be traced back very far in history.  The possibility of such retrievals seems to have originated as an early Christian idea which was soon abandoned.

W00t are you talking about?!?
I'm PRETTY sure that soul retrievals have been around in shamanism for as long as the shamanism itself has been around, which is a _VERY_ long time.

I really do not understand how this would have originated from an early Christian idea when it has been around globally in most different tribes around the Earth.

[Berserk]

Many Christian leaders would dismiss the claims of modern astral adepts to perform soul retrievals as occult heresy.  In this post I want to offer a bridge that might be built between modern retrievals and early Christian tradition.   The practice of soul retrievals in shamanism cannot be traced back very far in history.  The possibility of such retrievals seems to have originated as an early Christian idea which was soon abandoned.

Jews began praying for the dead in the second century BCE.  In the early church this practice evolved into proxy baptism for the unredeemed dead.  We encounter this mysteriously lost rite in 1 Corinthians 15:28-29.  Here Paul hints at his belief (expressed more clearly elsewhere) in the possibility that all humanity will eventually be saved.  He insists that God will ultimately "be everything to everyone" and implies that proxy baptism for the unredeemed dead is part of this process. This is the first text to document the concept of soul retrievals.

In the early second century, this practice was reinforced by a belief in postmortem baptism in the Acherusia lake near the Elysian field.  The early church borrowed these locales from Greek mythology and incorporated them into their heaven.  Consider these 2 quotes from apocalyptic writings from the first half of the 2nd century:          

"[Christ:] Then I shall grant God to them, if they call to me (in the torment) and I will give them a precious baptism for salvation from the Acherusian lake, which, people say, is located in the Elysian field, the portion of the the righteous with the holy ones (Apocalypse of Peter 14--Rainer fragment--written around 135 CE)."

"To the pious, when they ask eternal God, He will grant them to save people out of the devouring fire and from everlasting torments...For having gathered them again from the unwearying flame and set them elsewhere, He will send them for His people's sake into another life, indeed an eternal one with the immortals, in the Elysian plain, where are the long waves of the ever-flowing, deep bosomed Acherusian lake (Sibylline Oracles II:331-338--written around 150 CE)."

These 2 texts hint at an early Christian perspective that is often implied  but never made explicit, namely that none of us ultimately make it unless we all make it.  Your success is my success; your failure is my failure.  Heaven cannot be heaven for Christians unless they do something about the fact that many unbelievers are languishing in lower spiritual planes.  The seeds of this teaching appear in another New Testament work, the Book of Revelation.  To see this it helps to realize that John the seer does not comprehend every aspect of his astral journeys and that, if he did, he would no doubt grimace at the teachings being disclosed to him. John is shown heaven through the image of a hovering New Jerusalem and learns that heaven's gates can never be shut (21:25).  This image seems to imply eternal traffic coming and going.  But going out on what missions?  Why would anyone leave heaven?  We are told that "outside" are the wicked residing in hell (22:15).  So the image seems to imply soul retrievals from hell.  

This interpretation finds reinforcement from 2 other texts in this apocalypse; (1) John's vision of everyone in hell (i.e., those "under the earth") joining all humanity in the worship of God and Christ (5:13); (2) the mystery of "the second resurrection" which John never identifies.  That is, his visions assume a patterm of first death, followed by first resurrection and second death followed by second resurrection (see 19:5-6).  But John never identifies the second resurrection. His anger over his persecution makes him reluctant to do so.  The second death is the lake fire.  So the second resurrection is surely retrieval from the lake of fire.   Only heaven's eternally open gate makes sense as the vehicle for the second resurrection!  Here it is iimportant to realize tht neither in Hebrew nor in Greek do the words tranlated "eternal" mean that.  Rather, they simply mean "for an indefinitely long period of time."  Thus, in Judaeo-Christian literature in late antiquity, a new status often follows "eternal" sleep!  It seems legitimate to read soul retrievals into Revelation when the Christian apocalyptic texts from the very next generation explicitly celebrate this practice.

The apostle Peter also embraces the concept of soul retrievals.  In 1 Peter 3:18-19 Peter implies that after Christ's resurrection, He retrieved "the spirits in prison" who had been trapped there for thousands of years.  Peter then offers a more generic vision of the possibility of soul retrievals in 4:6.

[Berserk]

In considering soul retrievals, this generally overlooked fact needs to be recognized: in both Hebrew ("olam") and Greek ("aioios"), the biblical words translated "eternal" do not mean that.  "Olam" just means "for a long time" and "aionios" means "age long."  Thus, intertestamental Jewish writers speak at times about what happens AFTER THE "aionios" period has ended.