Different Christian Beliefs

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Beth

To all Christian believers,

Since I have been rightly chastised for trying to "lump all Christians" into the same stereotype, please share here your own brand of the Christian message.

This thread is to share why and how your Christian belief is different from the most conservative position--which most of us are very familiar with.

For instance, my error came with a particular topic: Sex.  Please explain your Christian based attitudes toward sex.  How about toward birth control? Toward women in general?

Another good detail to include is your position on the eucharistic meal, aka, The Lords Supper. If your view is transubstantiation, i.e., magical transformation of bread and wine into Christ's body and blood, explain how you understand this to occur. Or if this ritual is only a symbol, how does it fit into your overall belief and practice?

How about hell, pergatory and the afterlife?

And most especially for this forum, how does your Christian belief support or discourage astral investigation, or other topics that this forum addresses?

Certainly include any other beliefs that differ from the well-known conservative beliefs that you would like to share with us.

Please do not argue with one another over the differences. This thread is for information purposes only.

All members may be able to learn something from this information, even if not Christians by faith.

Also, if any non-Christians have questions regarding the religion that they have never understood, ask away! (But BE NICE about it!)

Knowledge is a good thing.
~Beth

p.s. Please do not quote long verses of scripture; just paraphrase and cite the pertinent scripture. We can all look it up for ourselves!

p.s.s. No sermons please!! Just talk to us...
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

CFTraveler

I'll bite.   :lol:  I'm a metaphysical christian.  I believe that God is everywhere present, including people.  I also believe that that is the message that Jesus came to bring.  
Now, for the mythology/ritual part of it:
QuotePlease explain your Christian based attitudes toward sex. How about toward birth control? Toward women in general?
My perspective towards sex, isn't that it's good or bad- it's just a drive, like hunger, which can exert a lot of control on us (as humans).  When sex is demonized, as most orthodox religions (not all) do, it becomes a method of control.  That's why sex is such an effective advertising tool, because the normal healthy sex drive has been rechanneled towards psychological control.  This has nothing to do with spiritual expression, but it has to do with social control, something religion in general is very good at.
QuoteAnother good detail to include is your position on the eucharistic meal, aka, The Lords Supper. If your view is transubstantiation, i.e., magical transformation of bread and wine into Christ's body and blood, explain how you understand this to occur. Or if this ritual is only a symbol, how does it fit into your overall belief and practice?
How
The Lord's Supper was the celebration of a Jewish family of the Passover meal, which is a symbol for freedom from bondage.  It was taken as a symbol of Jesus' passing from human to 'more', which can also be seen as Freedom from bondage, symbolically.  In the ancient religions, blood was seen as a symbol of life, and bread was a symbol of fertility.  So the wine and bread symbolize life(fertility leading to life)-> But as a symbol for passing (dying on the cross) it becomes a symbol of everlasting life- Once again, freedom from bondage.
Quoteabout hell, pergatory and the afterlife?
No hell- We consider ourselves students, and as such study the bible and other spiritual material in it's historical context.  For example, there are a couple of words for hell in the Bible- sheol and gehenna.  Sheol has been described as 'death' or a state of 'nonexistence', which has nothing to do with eternal punishment, and Gehenna was a place that was cursed, actually a place that had been used for human sacrifice and dumping (and burning) trash.  So the expression 'go to hell' is a little less punitive than the idea that modern orthodox religions have of hell.  It wasn't a place for eternal punishment, just a way to describe what loathing a person felt for whomever.  Also, the third adjective for hell, "Lake of Fire" in Revelation was supposed to be the "lake of fire to end all death' which could mean something spiritual and symbolic, which makes more sense than the literal interpretation, since Revelation was a symbol wrapped on a symbol.  (Sorry, Batman)
The socially accepted prejudice against women was a cultural one, not based on religion originally (it became so later).  The jewish culture we have now indicate that jewish women have a high value, and if you look at the Bible and the Kabbalah you'll see a high regard for women.  The view of God as male became dogma after the influence of Greek and Roman thought (it may surprise some to know that the ancient greeks made women wear veils) and considered homosexuality to be superior to heterosexuality (between men, of course) because women were for breeding, for fun, men were superior.  Whomever doesn't believe me, read any good historical account of how Sparta was founded, for example.

QuoteAnd most especially for this forum, how does your Christian belief support or discourage astral investigation, or other topics that this forum addresses?
My belief system encourages astral investigation, because metaphysical christians believe that the whole universe is 'in us', and that's what astral investigation is, isn't it?  The objectification of what we can create. IMO, anyway.
QuoteCertainly include any other beliefs that differ from the well-known conservative beliefs that you would like to share with us.
Just one, quite controversial:  Jesus died on the cross, not for our sins, but to show us that death isn't the end.  
Also, no original sin, no purgatory (I believe the Catholic church is beginning to officially get away from this concept, but with the new Pope who knows?)
Reincarnation:  Probably the one that makes the most sense, since it appears to be the most fair, but not because of enforced Karma, more like the desire of the Spirit to experience physical reality with both pleasure, pain and transcendence.

Ryuji

i have questions :)

1. why are all the key points in Christianity being taken by men - angels, god, prophets, Jesus etc etc

2. it is rather noticeable that all those are also and always drawn as concasion white

3. why is god in old testament different from the god in the new testament

4. in essence is divination and magic really different from prayer/asking holy spirit or god for knowledge. the prophetic stuff

5. can one really discern from other person speaking on tongues what he is saying.

6. how different is magic from miracles

7. why does god need us

8. why does god need worship

off the topic maybe but why does this type of religion have similairities to all the other virgin-only-son-become-god, what does it mean towards it ?

9. gospel of Tomas, was Judas a hero or and why is the bible made up the books in it. doesn't all the Christians then become catholics in that sense reading and believing from the same book.

10. the other one - why and how did reincarnation start, that bit make me understand it bit more.

11. whats the original sin thing, becuase of that we reincarnate.


those are few tho...

blessings and peace,
Ruy

Nay

No fair Ruy.  You have to answer the questions given by Beth or start your own questions thread.   :grin:

Ryuji

QuoteAlso, if any non-Christians have questions regarding the religion that they have never understood, ask away! (But BE NICE about it!)

:cool:

Beth

:confused: Well...I did post that didn't I???? :confused:

How about this Ruy...go slowly.

Ask only one, or just a couple of related questions at a time.

Surely you can see where your post is a bit too much???

~Beth
Become a Critical Thinker!
"Ignorance is the greatest of all sins."
                   --Origen of Alexandria

Ryuji


CFTraveler

Quote from: Ryujii have questions :)

1. why are all the key points in Christianity being taken by men - angels, god, prophets, Jesus etc etc

2. it is rather noticeable that all those are also and always drawn as concasion white

3. why is god in old testament different from the god in the new testament

4. in essence is divination and magic really different from prayer/asking holy spirit or god for knowledge. the prophetic stuff

5. can one really discern from other person speaking on tongues what he is saying.

6. how different is magic from miracles

7. why does god need us

8. why does god need worship

off the topic maybe but why does this type of religion have similairities to all the other virgin-only-son-become-god, what does it mean towards it ?

9. gospel of Tomas, was Judas a hero or and why is the bible made up the books in it. doesn't all the Christians then become catholics in that sense reading and believing from the same book.

10. the other one - why and how did reincarnation start, that bit make me understand it bit more.

11. whats the original sin thing, becuase of that we reincarnate.


those are few tho...

blessings and peace,
Ruy
Who are these questions for?

CFTraveler

I'll bite again!  Just realize, Ruy, that my views are not orthodox, but I'll try to answer them as I understand them.
Quote from: Ryujii have questions :)  
1. why are all the key points in Christianity being taken by men - angels, god, prophets, Jesus etc etc  
At the time scriptures were written down the culture was male-dominant.  That could have been different if written before they were.

Quote2. it is rather noticeable that all those are also and always drawn as concasion white
The artwork associated with Christianity was done in europe in the middle ages- when religion ran the show-so the people that did the work were european and white.  There are more semitic looking pieces in the eastern churches, and also black virgin Marys in Egypt, but those are probably statues of Isis recruited for christian worship.
Quote3. why is god in old testament different from the god in the new testament
That's a great question.  I would say that the mentality of the people of the old testament times was different than the people of the new testament- but what I really think is that they lived in a system where they saw God as a ruler, or tyrant, and the movement started by John the Baptist and then Jesus were eschatological movements concerned with inward spirituality- therefore as a mystic, Jesus saw us connected to God in an intimate way- as a parent instead of a ruler, and amazingly the more orthodox religions didn't completely revert the idea of God back to it's original view. (They tried, though.)
Quote4. in essence is divination and magic really different from prayer/asking holy spirit or god for knowledge. the prophetic stuff
In my opinion, no.  I believe that the central message 'ask and it shall be given' and 'only if you believe' is not much different than usic magic and sorcery, because both involve knowing how creation works and how to get what we're supposed to.  Of course, everyone has their own opinion of what they're entitled to, so I'll stay away from that.
Quote5. can one really discern from other person speaking on tongues what he is saying.
I wouldn't know.

Quote6. how different is magic from miracles
Probably the point of view.  How the blessed see what happened to them, and how much conscious involvement they believe they had in the event.

Quote7. why does god need us
The pat answer would be to experience imperfection, but the question is:  Does God need us?  If you see God as separate from us, then the point would be moot- but if you consider yourself as a part of God, then it's not that God needs us, is that we need to comprehend ourselves as parts of a greater whole, which some call God.  It's a question of being, not needing.
Quote8. why does god need worship
God does not need worship.  Again, it is man who has the drive to either study or worship something- there is something bulit in in us that make us revere- it can be something outside of us, it can be something inside of us, or it can be what connects us.  But the idea that God needs us to worship God is absurd, based on politics. (Commence bashing here).
Quoteoff the topic maybe but why does this type of religion have similairities to all the other virgin-only-son-become-god, what does it mean towards it ?
I think that what christianity has in common with in other cults is the worship of God made man.  The virgin thing is a cultural one, born of the male need to think their mate is theirs only- that their children are theirs only- a biological drive- and that has been translated into that seeing God as man (male)- therefore his mother (or the vehicle for his offspring) has to be untouched by a measly human.  But that's the wannabee anthropologist in me talking.  The historian part wants to see that the idea that Jesus came to fulfill a prophecy created the 'virgin mother' thing, due to a mistranslation of the original prophecy- he was born of a young woman- became he was born of a virgin.  Also, it's fun to note that the romans had that Vestal virgin cult- so there could be another influence.

Quote9. gospel of Tomas, was Judas a hero or and why is the bible made up the books in it. doesn't all the Christians then become catholics in that sense reading and believing from the same book.
I don't understand the question- the Gospel of Thomas was let out of the orthodox bible after about 90 years, but was part of it before then.  Judas
was considered vile for turning Jesus in and recently has been discovered not to have been vile because Jesus at some point realized that to get his message across of life being more than the body had to get himself killed so Judas was the only one who understood him enough to do what he did.
Historically accurate?  Who knows.  The Bible is made of the books that it is because the spiritual leaders of the areas got together and decided it in a few meetings (The Nicene Council is the better known one).  As to how all the books became to be used, it started out that christianity was a religion started with groups of people who wrote letters telling their families, etc. how their ministries were doing.  Then the town scribe would read the letters to the groups of followers, and it became a regular thing- then the letters became the central theme for their ceremonial life, and the gospels were born.  Because they went around preaching their beliefs and telling their stories, christianity became a bookish religion, and books became important in the religious life of their followers.  In the beginning there were many books, but after a while different groups started choosing some accounts over others, and pretty soon some had different beliefs than others, and when christianity became the official religion one of the conditions were that it be centralized and homogenous.  So at that point beliefs started clashing against others, and the more democratic beliefs got the boot.  
Quote10. the other one - why and how did reincarnation start, that bit make me understand it bit more.
I'm not sure, but I read a book about Buddha, and it said that reincarnation began to get popular about the time when Gautama was a young man and had begun seeking enlightenment, and that's the point of view that he took.  But I'm not an expert.
Quote11. whats the original sin thing, becuase of that we reincarnate.
Interesting to combine those two beliefs-
The original sin idea began when St. Augustine, a christian, decided to leave his 'debauched ways' and decided then that sex was bad and we were inherently defective.  This idea came from the myth of Adam and Eve- Since they "disobeyed" God and got kicked out of the Garden of Eden that made the rest of us defective because of what they did. (Eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil- there was no apple.)
Reincarnation is whole 'nother concept- That we're here to achieve perfection or enlightenment, and whatever we cause will come back to us, so we have to stay here until we stop affecting our environment- then we don't have to come back again. I super-simplified it 'cause this post is so long.  I hope it's not too simple or boring.  :lol:

Mustardseed

Please explain your Christian based attitudes toward sex.

I I suppose I already did that, but will get a bit more explicit. This is however a peripheral belief and as you all know something I have never before felt a need to share with the AP. However since you ask so directly, here I go. I do ask that you respect my views and those of my fellowship as Beth has requested.

We (I) believe that sex is a gift of God. His gift of love to us. The Devil actually hates sex, as it is a creative process. Sex however, without love (without a desire to love someone else) is meat without potatoes. To some this might sound as if it is a kind of holier than thou kind of sex but we believe that sex is erotic and should be exiting yet loving, we do not accept the fundamental mishmash about lust and love. Sex is sex, exiting, erotic, lusty and great. We accept sex before marriage if engaged in by consenting adults, and believe that even adults can have sex outside marriage, if it is in agreement with your partner, and within the bounds of what we term the law of love¨. (the greatest of these is LOVE)
 

How about toward birth control?

We leave that up to folks themselves to decide. Though we are categorically against abortion which we consider murder. We do feel however, that contraception is different. If you use it you are OK, if not you are OK. I have been married 2 times and have 15 children. I love them all and see each one as a gift of God.

Toward women in general?

Though we believe that the sexes are loved equally by God, we believe women have an ¬° "advantage". They are smarter (and certainly prettier) ha aside from that we believe that at this time in the earth's history it is a time for women to lead, through a superior sensitivity to the spirit. They are however not to use this in pride but should be humbled and sweet and consider it their responsibility rather than getting all uppity. Only in working together and esteeming each other (the sexes) better than one self will we ever be able to get where we are going.  

Your position on the Eucharistic meal, aka, The Lords Supper.

It was the only real tradition or shall we say or formal worship, that Jesus asked us to observe. We are not bound by what we eat and drink and can do it with water and cookies. The spiritual idea is the point.  We are the body of Christ all believers, and through partaking in faith we receive unity and healing. As to the timing it says ,as often as ye to this you do it in remembrance of Me, so we sometimes do it weekly or every day and sometimes not for a year. Depending on the setting.

If your view is transubstantiation, i.e., magical transformation of bread and wine into Christ's body and blood, explain how you understand this to occur. Or if this ritual is only a symbol, how does it fit into your overall belief and practice?

How about hell, purgatory and the afterlife?

We believe that Purgatory is one of the doctrines that the Catholics got right. We believe in Universal reconciliation, that eventually all will come to understand the Love of God. That by praying for departed spirits we can still help them and that salvation in the spirit world is a possibility. Hell is a continuation of the hellish lives people live on earth not a punishment for sin as in the 10commandments. All have sinned and come short, but rather it is a very basic learning level the cellar of heaven you might say and upward progress is possible. The belief system territories are not only inhabited by Christians and we expect to find a few from the pulse there as well. Ha.

How does your Christian belief support or discourage astral investigation, or other topics that this forum addresses?

We encourage it but leave it up to the individual. We do however practice Prophecy (Channeling ) and live our every day lives as individuals, by it. Visions and spiritual exploration is encouraged and we believe that a person is judged by their motive not only their action. There does seem to be rules of attraction and behavior like attracts like like yet angels mostly stay incognito. We believe in Spirit helpers and that departed believers act as helpers for the ones asking their help

Certainly include any other beliefs that differ from the well-known conservative beliefs that you would like to share with us.

We believe that Church Christians i.e. Fundamentalists are an abhorrence to God. Lukewarm hypocrites, and that the Churches (maybe especially the American Churches have led more people astray than any drug user or whatever. We are in constant battle with churches and religious people and receive profound persecution from fundamentalists, who have taken our kids away and lied about us to instigate the powers that may be against us. We do however rejoice and count it an honor though it is often hard to endure. I have myself on different occasions been jailed and tortured for my faith. Maybe that is why it is so dear to me. WE are by most Churches considered in error and misguided, yet see ourselves as average Christians............we are just having more fun and getting more done. Ha Our fellowship number 10.000 active missionaries. Membership without service is not accepted. Everyone is expected to be a Missionary and engage in loving folks into HEAVEN, and minimizing ungodly influences and certainly try not to get too self righteous ha.

Hope this is a help

Regards Mustardseed
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Mustardseed

PS I forgot, another nail in my coffin, we believe the Holy Spirit is female :cool:
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Ryuji

CTFTraveler... thanks for response. ill ponder throught it :)

mustarseed
QuotePS I forgot, another nail in my coffin, we believe the Holy Spirit is female

how can a spirit/entity/deity/god have a gender ?

blessings,
ryu

Mustardseed

Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Ryuji

QuoteGenesis 1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

hehe that sounds like yoda speaking all in backwards English

anyways that's all figuratively - unfortunately god don't have gender same with holy spirit/spirits/angles etc etc. you don't see them needing genders anyways they don't need to produce do they ? or are they all asexual ? heterosexual ? homosexual or bisexual ?

-> those are things given to them by men for men so that they can associate with them for example the fact that angels came down because they saw the woman was beautifully and made children with then and out came the giants (sounds allot like men who cant control their urges and thus thing all things must be like them even the high evolved spirits)

just saying something is wrong or so without proper explanation is not proper way - quoting from bible or some phrase. can't just say for example don't have sex before marriage or ye will burn in hell. there's obviously more to it than just that if you want to do it you should with correct person and have the financial backing if there is a child conceived.

anyways aside with that.

one thing i always wanted to know whats the deal with Abraham's 2 sons
one becomes Islam and other goes into Jesus's line. maybe remembering it wrong now from Sunday school tho.

2nd question (hehe i know i should keep it to one *hides from Beth*) when heaven is described having streets of gold and crystal see is that symbolic or literal and is there some meaning to it or it just is...

blessings,
ryu

Ryuji

CTFTraveler...

ok read through it, i must start when i read the bible not to take it up so literally tho...

i am becoming more and more on the idea that it should be taken as a guide and not black on white, that one should take the good from it and the warnings and live life to become your own person to your fullest potential
seeking out the truth in all matters rather than living by the bible as a robot.

...one should look at the teachings than striving to be the person.

what u say on gnostic Christians if one can call them that ?


wohoo double post

:twisted:

blessings,
ryu

CFTraveler

Quote from: RyujiCTFTraveler...

ok read through it, i must start when i read the bible not to take it up so literally tho...
Always a good idea, in my very humble opinion.

Quotewhat u say on gnostic Christians if one can call them that ?
Well, I'm no expert on gnostic christianity (and yes, I believe they were christians as much as the other ones, they just lost by two bishops, if I remember correctly. :lol: ). I have read a few of the gnostic gospels and actually own a couple of them.  I do think they had the right idea as to God being in us as much as out of us (from the Gospel of Thomas.)  However, they tended to be so mystical that it's very difficult for me to deal with the more arcane of their theories (and there were a few) and some of the gnostic gospels were as 'reactionary' as the orthodox Bible, so I really try to see it as a snapshot of how life was back then, instead as rules for living.  My favorite gnostic gospel is the Gospel of Thomas, and my least favorite is the Gospel of Peter.  I'm surprised it didn't make it into the Bible.  :shock:

burnination3

i'm pretty new here, and i'll assume fairly young (sixteen) compared with the majority of members on here, so i guess that this might be the best place to start. first i'd like to say that i was, and still sort of am, considerably interested in and fascinated by astral projection. i am still trying to find a way to balance this with my faith, however, so i can't exactly answer why Christianity is incompatible/compatible with AP. some rather smart Christians have said that AP is dangerous and could open oneself up to demons (negative entities, whatever you like to call them). on the other hand (i'm starting to take this opinion as my own, which will be proven once i actually AP haha), it could be used as a way to draw closer to God. i'm not too sure of either yet, but we shall soon see!

also, i apologize in advance for my "Christianese". if further clarification on any subject is asked, i will gladly give it. :]

as for my faith, i don't know where to begin. i attend a non-denominational church mostly because i like and because, while the people might be great, i'm not a big fan of having different denominations. i feel that we, Christians, should be unified and not given various titles. we should be Christians, and not Baptists or Methodists or Lutherans. however, in no way am i saying that one is wrong for going to a Lutheran/Baptist/Methodist/whatever church. it's just my personal feelings about the subject.

i guess i'll start with the Bible. i believe it to be the divine Word of God, written by humans under the influence of the Holy Spirit. i don't think, however, that this leaves room for error on the part of man, because that is in a way implying God to be imperfect. if He wanted the Bible to be infallible, then He would make sure that it would be. the canon was not made at the Council of Nicaea, since that wasn't even on the list of topics to be discussed (the big thing was refuting Arianism, which says Jesus was created). and, i guess i'll throw it in, Jesus being God was not even an issue. it was Arius who was arguing that Jesus was created and not God. the vote was 300-something to 1 (1 being Arius). anyway, the canon was merely reflecting the view of what Christians held to be the Word of God for a little over three centuries. so the Gnostic Gospels, which A) were written too late to be seriously considered (many scholars agree that the four gospels were written as early as two years after Jesus' death), and B) contradicted many of Jesus' teachings (Gospel of Thomas says women have to become men to enter Heaven), were already viewed as ludicrous.

also, i share Martin Luther's view of sola fide (saved by faith alone), sola scriptura (the canonical Scripture alone holds authority), and sola Christu (Christ's sacrifice and our faith in it alone saves)(dunno if i spelled Christ's name in Latin right).

as for the afterlife, i believe in Heaven and Hell and nothing more. Purgatory, as far as i understand it, was an invention of the Catholic Church at the time and unsupported by canonical Scripture. i am not going to immediately bash them and say that they created Purgatory to get money. there is another possible motive, such as them thinking that a merciful God could not make people suffer eternally, so they made Purgatory as sort of a way around Hell. in Purgatory, people suffer a bit, but eventually they can get to Heaven. as i said before, Purgatory is not supported by Scripture.

Hell is the ultimate end result of man's utter rejection of God. i believe that God is merciful, but at the same time He is just and righteous. God is merciful by allowing men 70-90 years to live and giving them hundreds of chances and signs of Him (Romans 1 states that creation attests to the attributes of God). but as He is just, He must give the unsaved their penalty. this does not make Him evil, as Ezekiel somewhere says "God does not delight in the death of the wicked." also, God does not send anyone to Hell. rather, if one was already hardening their heart towards Him, He, who's very essence is love, would not keep them from that path. free love and all that.

Heaven really isn't much of a reward as it is a rest for Christians who have "ran the race". the old idea of "do good things and you can get to Heaven" is simply not true. it is by the very grace of God that He would stoop to save us from the mire and save us. and if we could do nothing to save ourselves, then what can we do to get to Heaven? nothing. before i go off on a tangent about good works, i'll say that Heaven is spent eternally worshipping God. now don't get the idea of everyone standing in front of a giant alter or throne singing forever and ever. that's not exactly what i meant, because worship is verb, and can be applied to different things. and here i go down a rabbit trail again. but my point is that we will not only worship God in praise, but also in our actions, being freed from sin and becoming utterly perfect. also, Heaven is not clouds and whatnot.

good works is also a subject of controversy between Catholics and Protestants. as i said earlier, self-righteous deeds accomplish nothing. however, Christians don't do good things to gain anything, but rather out of gratitude for what God has done. also, Protestants believe that one's capacity to enjoy Heaven is effected by this. this does not mean that one who does no good things, but is saved, will be miserable in Heaven, but rather it's more like they'd be content by lesser things, like a child playing with pots and pans.

sex, as i see it, is a natural human function. in itself, it is not bad. i'm planning on saving myself for my future wife simply because i think that it'll make her feel more special. i don't really believe in sex outside of marriage, since while it's the highest expression of one's love, i feel that it would be better to have it with someone who you've pledged to live your life with.

communion is basically a reminder of what Christ suffered and accomplished on the cross. and transubstantiation is not something i believe in.

as for men and women ... well. men and women are equal in the sight of God. man is not higher than woman, nor vice versa. however, i believe that God created men and women quite differently and, because of such, they are inclined to take different roles. therefore when it comes to marriage, i think that, when it comes to a decision, they both must discuss it. the wife is to give her opinions, and possibly argue her position, but the decision is to be left to the husband. also, i think that when the man realizes that he is making a decision for both of them, God will give him the wisdom and humility to consider both options and go the right way. but, as i said, women and men are still equal.

anyway, i'm in the middle of something, so if you have any questions feel free to ask.

a conservative open to AP, who would've thought. :B

Mustardseed

Explain this

"Indeed, God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." (John 3:17)

"Therefore, just as one man's [Adam's] trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's [Christ's] act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all." Rom. 5:18

"For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all." (Rom. 11:32)

"For as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ." (1 Cor. 15:22)

"He [God] has made known to us the mystery of his will ... as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." (Eph. 1:9, 10)

"Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:9-10)

"... through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross." (Col. 19-20)

"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, singing, 'To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever.'" (Rev. 5:13)

Then follow this link  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

And use the "see also"

Let me know what you think. It is always nice to be the who belong alone to the club.

Trust me I know
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

burnination3

Quote from: MustardseedExplain this

"Indeed, God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." (John 3:17)

"Therefore, just as one man's [Adam's] trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's [Christ's] act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all." Rom. 5:18

"For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all." (Rom. 11:32)

"For as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ." (1 Cor. 15:22)

"He [God] has made known to us the mystery of his will ... as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." (Eph. 1:9, 10)

"Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:9-10)

"... through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross." (Col. 19-20)

"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, singing, 'To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever.'" (Rev. 5:13)

Then follow this link  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

And use the "see also"

Let me know what you think. It is always nice to be the who belong alone to the club.

Trust me I know
sorry for taking a long time to reply. i've been really busy. :redface:

Proverbs says that God desires everyone to be righteous. does that mean that all are righteous? of course not. most theologians agree that God has a perfect will and a permissive will. the perfect will is a result of His character, meaning that because He is perfect He wills and desires all to be saved and be righteous. obviously, not all are saved. then there is the permissive will. this means that God leaves room in His plans for sin, since God does not purpose sin. Adam and Eve sinned because God made room for it, i sin because God allows it, and so on and so forth. therefore, it is God's perfect will that all will be saved, but that does not mean that all will be saved, since God's permissive will allows room for people to disobey and ignore the call of salvation.

the John text you quoted does not support universalism, since it says "might be saved." as God's perfect will proves, this does not mean all will be saved. it merely means that God sent His Son in the hope of all being saved, but His permissive will means that He allows disobedience.

the last three mean only that people will eventually see God in His full majesty. this does not mean, however, that all will be saved simply because they believe that Christ is God. this is after they have died. humans have thousands upon thousands of chances in this life to turn and repent, so why should they be able to repent in death?

the 1 Corinthians text simply says that those saved will be made alive.

"The first question that must be asked is HOW... How did people become IN ADAM and how do people become IN CHRIST? It would seem obvious that ALL men are born in Adam via natural birth, but NOT all men are born in Christ.  Does this contradict the text?  Not in the least bit.  The text is NOT saying all who are in Adam will be in Christ, but rather it is contrasting that all that were in Adam were under death, and thus all who are in Christ (which is not everyone) will be made alive." - Confronting Universalism

Mustardseed

Dear Friend

Thanks for the reply. Your answer, and the way you answered it, is my own best personal reason for believing in universal reconciliation.

You see my friend, it is obvious at least to me that you grasping at a straw, and that you are actually twisting the scriptures to make it appear, that you, who know Christ at this moment, are the only ones who deserve to be saved.

Besides the fact that it makes absolutely no sense, that God should create something and then take pleasure in destroying it, what it does, is promote fear and elitism, a sort of Superior feeling that goes against everything reasonable in life. Young Christians like yourself are so easily lead astray, mostly because you, in your pride, actually "feel good" to be part of the club, and often you end up living your lives in a sort of dazed "spoiled brat" kind of way, a bit like Americans in general.

You just feel so good about yourself and your own Christianity (Americanism?) that you never actually take the time to pray and deeply think about things. You feed on the easy answers, right off the appropriate websites, making it obvious that you never actually took the time to really consider things deeply. Getting answers becomes a sort of fast food thing, where all you are interested in is arguing a all ready accepted and believed point. So you take the easy route, ask what all the others believe and hang with that  :grin: .

In discussing theology in a serious manner, you have to actually CONSIDER the points brought to the table. You actually have to see if these things "be so". It is not enough to dismiss thoughts and scriptures by stating that "that's not what they mean". Universal Reconciliation is a very strong argument theologically, it is based on scriptures, many scriptures at that, and it makes sense as well.

Besides that, and this is my own experience, in the spirit things are different than in Church. There are so many things you  dont know yet my suggestion is that you break the mold and start thinking for yourself, you could begin by asking God about this question and then really research it.

Consider this argument By Thomas Talbott and take a look at his page

            A simple argument for universalism

Suppose that Christ commanded that we love our enemies and love our neighbor even as we love ourselves because such love is an essential condition of blessedness or supreme happiness.  If this is true, as I believe it is, then God could not possibly bring blessedness to one person without also bringing it to all.
Here is why. If I truly love my daughter even as I love myself, then her interests and my own are so tightly interwoven as to be logically inseparable: any good that befalls her is then a good that befalls me, and any evil that befalls her is likewise an evil that befalls me. I could never be happy, for example, knowing that my daughter is suffering or in a miserable condition--unless, of course, I could somehow believe that all will be well for her in the end. But if I cannot believe this, if I were to believe instead that she had been lost to me forever--even if I were to believe that, by her own will, she had made herself intolerably evil--my own happiness could never be complete. For I would always know what could have been, and I would always experience this as a terrible tragedy and an unacceptable loss, one for which no compensation is even conceivable. Is it any wonder, then, that Paul could say concerning his unbelieving brothers and sisters whom he loved so much: "For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people" (Romans 9:3)? From the perspective of his love, in other words, Paul's own damnation would be no worse an evil, and no greater threat to his own happiness, than the eternal damnation of his loved ones would be.

God could make us "happy" whilst our loved ones suffered in hell only in two possible ways: either by concealing from us the magnitude of the tragedy (blissful ignorance), or by giving us a callous and stony heart, so that we no longer truly loved those who were lost. Both of these possibilities, however, are incompatible with true blessedness. So in the end, it is logically impossible for God to bring blessedness to one person without also bringing it to all

http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/theol.html

I am not saying that my beliefs have to be yours, but they have to become part of your considerations. It is your job to weigh the scriptures, to consider to ponder in your heart, you yourself, so I hope that you will do that.

The net is chuck full of religious Church Christians who believe that they alone have the answer. They are secluded in their "blessing" of being saved, supporting church of horribly cruel individuals who are so self righteous it hurts, much like the scribes and Pharisees mentioned so often in the Bible

Think about it.


Regards Mustardseed
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

gdo

LOL   Thanks.

We are each 'saved' in our own individual manner and no other person here can understand what an other persons situation may be.  

In our differences we are the same and the answers all come from the same source.  We just get there by sligthly different paths and at different times using different languages.