The Death of Robert Monroe

[Berserk]

A couple of years ago I read an internet announcement that Robert Monroe had died of pneumonia in 1995.  I didn't think much of it at the time.  But that changed when I stumbled on to pp. 208-209 in his last book, "Ultimate Journey."  In the context, Monroe has just resolved to seek out his "source."  Then he is accosted by "God" [?] in the same OBE:

"What!  Blinding energy--I cannot move!
A voice in my head--a cold, admonitory voice. . .
`I AM THE LORD GOD WHOM YOU SERVE.'
A feeling of immense pressure, as if I am dissolving. . .Now I am in water...MY LUNGS ARE FULL OF WATER. . .no, it can't be...there is no  water...I have no lungs.  I am being made to think that is where I am. . .
But what is this?  What God can this be?"

`DO YOU NOT ACCEPT ME AS YOUR GOD?'
The idea of a God who threatens me amuses me...I let this idea flow out.
`DO YOU NOT FEAR ME?...;YOU ARE DAMNED!  YOU ARE NO MORE THAN WASTED ENERGY OF ME, WHO IS YOUR LORD!'"

"Ultimate Journey" was published in 1994 and Robert Monroe died of pneumonia within a year of its publication.  One of the symptoms of pneumonia is a troubling cough caused by fluid in the lungs.  Monroe's exclamation, "My lungs are full of water!" sounds like "God" is angered by Monroe's disdainful attitude and therefore allows him to experience a key symptom of the agent of his imminent death.

But what does "God" mean by forcing Monroe to simulate his future fatal pneumonia?  Is this really God or merely an impersonator?  According to the Bible God's wrath is the other side of His love.  Monroe disdains words like "God" and "spiritual".  He identifies as "knowns" these 3 divine traits:

God "does not demand worship, adoration, or recognition, does not punish for `evil' and `misdeeds', does not intercede or interdict in our life activity (UJ 224-225)."  The futility of Monroe's astral attempts at prayer is not unexpected, given his contempt for the notion of a personal God.  Other astral adepts have reported that prayer was crucial in extricating them from threatening astral predicaments.  His claim that God does not hold people accountable for evil is an extension of his misguided principle: "There is no good, there is no evil.  There is only expression (UJ 217)."  In my post on "Reincarnation in Judaism and Early Christianity", I have traced this principle back to 2nd century Gnosticism.  Gnostics used this principle as an excuse for sex orgies during Holy Communion, orgies in which, after the wife-swapping sex, semen and menstrual fluid replace Communion bread and wine.  Monroe's dogmatic claim that God does not require love is puzzling in view of his belief in love as the most important force in the universe.  

Monroe is entitled to his convictions.  But his claim that these 3 affirmations are not merely beliefs, but "knowns" is beneath contempt.
Is Monroe really confronted by God?  Is God giving Monroe one last chance to surrender his life to Him?  Is the prolonged fluid in the lung sensation a warning, a divine judgment, something else?  Is this whole astral projection a delusion, an unconscious projection of the clairvoyant insight that the fatal virus is already present or soon to be present?  I don't know.  One's answer will merely betray one's overview.  But I am sure of one thing--Monroe's proleptic experience of his death is more than just a coincidence?

Berserk

[Telos]

There's a significant amount of evidence which suggests a connection between dreams and illness. After all, according to the psychological model, when we are dreaming our awareness is 100 percent inward, so any uncontrolled imagery we see is the result of some bodily action. I'm reminded of a story I heard where a women goes into the basement in her dream, and pulls out a diseased fruit from her purse. Soon afterwards she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. The basement represented the lower part of her body, the purse her feminity, the fruit her reproductive capabilities, etc.,

However, you really opened my eyes about something else:

Monroe's dogmatic claim that God does not require love is puzzling in view of his belief in love as the most important force in the universe.

You're absolutely right. Whatever your definition of God, be it the mindless substrate of reality or the collective human unconscious or something beyond comprehension - would it not need love? How could something exist in the universe and not need love? Doesn't everything that exists need love to survive, and doesn't everything that does not exist need love in order to exist?

I feel I'm close to understanding!

[Snow Pellets]

Sounds like a load of crap to me.. not what monroe says but about god threatening someone like that. Probably a NEG.

[Berserk]

Dear Telos,

I was delighted by your reply.  I've heard of similar symbolic dreams pointing to a developing illness.  But in that case, I suspect that Monroe's gift was merely psychological--i. e. a variant of lucid dream consciousness with no significance for postmortem survival.   If so, some ESP was no doubt triggered in that state creating the illusion of verifications.  When parapsychologist Charles Tart tested Monroe's OBE gift, Monroe scored seme hits, but his many errors were more striking.

But even so, I still ask myself whether this "astral" iincident is also intended as a divine warning.  I suspect not for 2 reasons: (1) A loving God would know that a cynic like Monroe would not respond positively to such a heavy-handed confrontation.  (2) Atheists often have NDEs.  As the Christ light communicates with them, they typically say something like "But I don't even believe in you!"  And the Christ light typically responds with something positive like, "But I DO believe in you!"  All I know is that this astral encounter places the  death of Robert Monroe in an extremely interesting light.

Berserk

[kenshin]

probably nothing more than a coincedence, or maybe a pregognition (the part about the water)

[Palehorse]

That incident in Monroe's book kinda made me raise an eyebrow too.

I vaguely recall a Bible passage that said something about God being revealed to people according to the image of Him that they hold, however distorted it may be, but I'm not finding it at the moment.

But anyway, I definitely get the idea from Monroe's writings that this was the image of God he held.  Outwardly he ultimately rejected this "God," but perhaps at some level he continued "serving" him, and this is somehow connected to what eventually killed him.  Could he have served this pseudo-God by continually feeding Him attention via rejection?  Perhaps by projecting his image of a god who doesn't desire love, he encountered a god who shows no love in return?  Perhaps by priding himself on being so self-sufficient, he ultimately chose to forfeit the temporal connection with the One who sustained his very life, and in doing so was taught his final (earthly) lesson?  I'm just speculating here (and probably not making a whole lot of sense in the process) but I s'pose only Monroe knows the answers, if even he does.

[Gandalf]

Palehorse_
I see you have been reading 'Donald's post on 'Afterlife knowledge forum'
where he brought up this point.

This line has been taken completely out of context unfortunatly, and you have to read the whole book, esp. the context of that situation to understand what was going on.

By this stage, Monroe was encountering many different individuals and other 'beings' who projected thrmselves as all manner of deity forms  from mainstream religions as well as all manner of other things you can think of.

Then one time he was confronted by what he considered a thought form, in the form of the typical OT 'god' type.  If it really was 'god' in the sense that you imagine this being to be, dont you think that monroe would be in no doubt, never mind his own sceptisism? this is 'god' after all and if he wanted you to know who he was, he is perfectly capable of doing so.. saying that it was down to Monroe sounds like a cop out to me.

I think it is telling that Monroe actually regarded this creature with amusement rather than fear or wonder.

Also it is clear from the description that this being was quite hostile, threatning Monroe on no uncertain terms.. mind you this is quite consistent with 'god' from the OT so maybe thats not suprising and tells you all you need to know about the truth of the OT account of god, not someone I'd be interested in talking to.

I also agree with Monroe that 'god' doesnt 'need' love.. you just didnt pick up what he means by that.. what he means is that you have to start thinking outside of the all to human conception of 'god' which is this guy who sits up in heaven expecting people to 'serve him' (your words) and expecting everyone to love him, like he would be upset if we didnt.
Also this idea of the god threatning and punishing individuals who didnt measure up or 'learn their lesson' is also all to human in its conception.. this image of 'god' is firmly based on the human king/subject master/slave model, where god is depicted like some kind of Roman emperor presiding over his subjects and demanding to be recognised... indeed this conception was fostered by the church developing as it did within the context of the Roman empire.

Monroe is saying that what he describes as 'god' and i use inverted commas since i dont accept the standard definition of god as you do, he is saying that this force, which is part and parcel of the universe itself and which we are made up of ourselves, does have as its ultimate expression the Prime Energy, which we call 'Love' but this is an oversimplification, however for us to move towards expressing unconditional love is the ultimate aim, this doesnt mean that te universe gets upset or angry if this isnt expressed by others, nor is 'punishment' meted out.. this is incorrect, since the universe is beyond such human needs and emotional pitfalls.

Monroe and others recomend learning to express unconditional love but at the same time you have to be practical, and while we feel sorry for those who express negativity and are aggrssive, like this 'god' figure, it is better to avoid them if at all possible or at least until you are advanced enough to engage them; you should not get upset when they attack you as in the astral such negative emotions can spiral out of all proportion.. the best advice if encountering them is to remain emotionally calm, and a feeling of light amusement is a very good weapon as this can disarm the most agressive of individuals who seek to dominate or overpower you with fear, as this being attempted to do, as monroe was suceseful in dismissing the being.


As for the vision and Monroe's death... there could be many explanations for this, other than 'proof' it was the OT god..
1) the most realistic explanation: coincidence... linking phlem/eumonia related death to a vision of lungs filling up with water/drowning is a BIG jump.. perhaps you dont have much experience with astral projection but this effect is not that uncommon and is often brought on as a form of panic response; This is my view of this.

I should point out this quote from a US medical journal to show that someone dying of this ailment is actually very common:
Pneumonia is the fifth leading cause of death in the elderly (over
65) in the U.S. ( and, presumably in other comparable countries.) It is
probably the most common primary cause of death in all progressive diseases.


Other possibilities: 2) however it may also be that this being saw a likely source of potential ilness in Monroe's makeup and used this to frighten him..
If you read monroe, you will know that beings are able to scan someone energetic makeup to find out all kinds of things about them.. perhaps this being did this..

3)another possibility was that this being inadvertanly caused this to happen through the vision, ie the vision of monroe drowning was a random thing thought up by the being but this had an unfortunate effect on monroe's energetic makeup which transfered to his body, resulting in a physical illness years later.. we had better hope this isnt true as it may suggest that obe isnt quite as safe as we though before.

In any of these cases, the scenario certainly doesnt portray 'god' in a very positive light and as I say portrays him as all too human in conception, which is what monroe saw it as, a human thought form taken form in the astral... it certainly isnt the sort of god form i'd want to associate with.. and this is what it does when it complains about not being loved??? what a psycotic.. if you want him you can keep him.. but watch your back!

What I'd recommend is instead of getting hung up on such accounts, is actually go out and get some practical experience in the astral and you will soon find that every religious conception, every deity, be it OT god, Jesus, Buddha, Zeus and more will exist in thought form somewhere, as well as every other human conception that you can think of, and even more that you cant! THEN, after experiencing this, the above accounts will become perfectly understandable, as will all the near death experiences from around the world where in every culture, where the individual involved sees 'god', (the 'god' vision doesnt always happen, it depends on how religious the person is) they see the deity in the form they expect it to be. This is perfectly consistent with the makeup of the astral.

Oh, and Monroe seems to be doing perfecly well for himself if you accept the accounts of Bruce Moen and his students, who have encountered Bob Monroe several times on their journeys since his death. He appeared on several occasions and helped them out with their explorations and gave them some hints and advice, he certainly hadnt changed his perceptions of god or human perceptions thereof.. He certainly seemed the old bob Monroe but he was operating on a much higher frequency and has now departed from the explorable levels as far as I know.

Douglas[/i]

[wisp]

I've had personal experience of the drowning. It took four years to get over the ordeal. Illness is a spiritual experience. I suspect God allows one to "heal thyself". It took spiritual intervention toward the end of the four years to finish my healing.It's a learning experience.

To learn to know the mind of God leads to the love of God. These Monroe quotes from God sounds like an imposter.The explanations given in the posts sounds very insightful!!!!

Where does this unconditional love come from?If God is a person, why should  love be a requirement placed upon him? Personally, I think unconditional love is a myth. You can't love someone who is at a distance,unless perhaps you already know that one.

It's a shame some of the most intelligent don't care to know the very person they are closest in similarity.

[Palehorse]

I see you have been reading 'Donald's post on 'Afterlife knowledge forum'
where he brought up this point.

Nope, I actually have no idea who that is or what he posted, heh.  I just wrote what came to me as it came after I read Berserk's post.

This line has been taken completely out of context unfortunatly, and you have to read the whole book, esp. the context of that situation to understand what was going on.

I have read the whole book (the whole trilogy actually), though its been a while.  Maybe I'll read that section of UJ again for the context later on next week.

Then one time he was confronted by what he considered a thought form, in the form of the typical OT 'god' type. If it really was 'god' in the sense that you imagine this being to be, dont you think that monroe would be in no doubt, never mind his own sceptisism? this is 'god' after all and if he wanted you to know who he was, he is perfectly capable of doing so.. saying that it was down to Monroe sounds like a cop out to me.

I didn't say it was God, I said it was (possibly) Monroe's personal projection of God being mirrored back at him.  Just my speculation.

Also it is clear from the description that this being was quite hostile, threatning Monroe on no uncertain terms.. mind you this is quite consistent with 'god' from the OT so maybe thats not suprising and tells you all you need to know about the truth of the OT account of god, not someone I'd be interested in talking to.

I have my own take on the "god from the OT," which I posted a few days ago on the "Against Christianity" thread:

My take on all the questionable OT material is simply that the ancient Israelites were a group of people who'd had an encounter with a transcendental God, but were still nonetheless largely stuck in the prevalent tribal god mentality of their day. The belief in a local god who would help your nation win its wars of conquest was extremely prevalent back then (and even seen in certain administrations today), and even the ancient Israelites were not immune to its influence. It's certainly a convenient belief to hold, as it literally lets you get away with murder under the guise of "doing God's work," and as we see here, if you lose the war, you don't have to take the blame for it. Pretty sweet deal, if you're into that sort of thing. But I don't believe it accurately reflects the reality of who God is and what He wants from us.

I think the true image of God shines through quite a bit too though, most notably with the prophets, who railed against the sins of the people and put a strong emphasis on social justice.

I also agree with Monroe that 'god' doesnt 'need' love.. you just didnt pick up what he means by that.. what he means is that you have to start thinking outside of the all to human conception of 'god' which is this guy who sits up in heaven expecting people to 'serve him' (your words) and expecting everyone to love him, like he would be upset if we didnt.

They're not my words -- I was quoting Monroe and operating from the viewpoint of his encounter.  My own idea of "serving God" primarily involves being good to myself and my fellow human beings.

Monroe is saying that what he describes as 'god' and i use inverted commas since i dont accept the standard definition of god as you do,

I do?  News to me.  

Please don't presume to know what I do or don't accept, as to my knowledge, I've never made any such statement here.  For the record, my concept of God is not very well defined at all, as I tend to think that any attempt to define God will result in more distortion than not.  The only definitive statements I'll generally make about God are "God is one" and "God is love"... and that any other statements made about God are based on those two affirmations.  But even still, those are simply my beliefs.

a feeling of light amusement is a very good weapon as this can disarm the most agressive of individuals who seek to dominate or overpower you with fear, as this being attempted to do, as monroe was suceseful in dismissing the being.

Obviously not, if there's any connection between his OBE experience and his death.  If there is, then our only two options are that this being killed him vindictively, or that this was some sort of lesson set up to teach him something, regardless of whether this being was actually sentient or not.  For several reasons, I tend toward the latter view.

However, if it was coincidence as you've pointed out that it could be, then the options you've presented all seem possible too.

it certainly isnt the sort of god form i'd want to associate with.. and this is what it does when it complains about not being loved??? what a psycotic.. if you want him you can keep him.. but watch your back!

Heh... I've written entire essays showing why this is a misrepresentation of the God of the Bible.  In short: I don't want him either.

What I'd recommend is instead of getting hung up on such accounts, is actually go out and get some practical experience in the astral

Good advice, and I'm workin' on it.  Unfortunately I got to about week 3 of Bruce's new book, and then got so caught up in various school stuff that for the last few weeks I've barely had time to sleep, let alone attempt AP, heh.  I was making pretty good progress before that though, and after this week I'll have about five weeks free to get back into it, so we'll see what happens.

Oh, and Monroe seems to be doing perfecly well for himself if you accept the accounts of Bruce Moen and his students, who have encountered Bob Monroe several times on their journeys since his death.

I hope he is; he seemed like a generally decent guy, and his contributions to the world of AP can't be denied.

[Gandalf]

Palehorse_
Apologies, I put your name at the top of the post by mistake, I meant to put Beserk's, the originator of the first post!

No wonder you had no idea what i was talking about when i was refering to you saying stuff!!

You bring in some good points though, and to sum up, no I dont think that the two events are connected as it goes against everything I know about the astral personally and from what i've read from others.
Also, 'god' encounters of all varieties are very common. From my experience there is absolutly no way that astral encounters can have physical effects other than ones brought about psychologically i suppose, which from what i know of monoe is highly unlikely... he certainly doesnt appear to have any residual 'god guilt trip' issues lying around, in fact if anyone doesnt, its him!

Douglas

[chohan]

One of the symptoms of pneumonia is a troubling cough caused by fluid in the lungs.  Monroe's exclamation, "My lungs are full of water!" sounds like "God" is angered by Monroe's disdainful attitude and therefore allows him to experience a key symptom of the agent of his imminent death.

But what does "God" mean by forcing Monroe to simulate his future fatal pneumonia?  Is this really God or merely an impersonator?  According to the Bible God's wrath is the other side of His love.  Monroe disdains words like "God" and "spiritual".
Berserk

be gone or a house may fall on you too!

 If Monroe's body took physical damage, it was more likely due to the extremes of that particular projection than to some deluded consciousness with a god complex.

The book is called Ultimate Journey for a reason.

[Gandalf]

According to the Bible God's wrath is the other side of His love

Which I've always though was utterly ridiculous, however if thats what turns you on...

who are subsumed by the Compassionate Buddha or the Cosmic Christ, or Whatever, they are certainly to be protected from the Barbaric Demons of Selfishness -- the Lucifers... the Bob Monroes!

LeoVolont_
I see you have pretty much failed completely to see where Monroe was coming from.... Try reading his books properly next time, without twisting them to fit in with your own preconceived notions...

Monroe deleted morality to engage a wider audience? What planet are you living on? It certainly isnt Earth.

Douglas

[Palehorse]

According to the Bible God's wrath is the other side of His love

Which I've always though was utterly ridiculous, however if thats what turns you on...

Only if you're operating with the human definition of "wrath."  When people are wrathful, we're generally reacting because our ego has been offended somehow, motivating us to seek recourse against the offending party.

Biblically, the wrath of God (who has no ego to speak of) is meant for our ultimate benefit, even if it doesn't seem that way at the time.

Hebrews 12:11
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

[Gandalf]

Palehorse_

I hear what you are saying, but I don't find your definition very believable either, but like I say, whatever rattles your cage.

Douglas

[wisp]

I'm surprized this idea hasn't been mentioned. Monroe, in his reality, may have survived his bout with pneumonia.

[Berserk]

In my view, Telos offers the most plausible conjecture to explain the role of "god" in signaling Bob Monroe's imminent death through pneumonia--a hallucinatory experience symbolically expressing an unconscious awareness of the virus which was soon to cause his pneumonia.  This
interpretation derives support from the evidence against the genuineness of many--if not all--of Monroe's OBEs.  In an experiment conducted by parapsychologist Charles Tart, Monroe's gift did not bear up well under closer scrutiny: "His [Monroe's] continuing description of what our
home looked like and what my wife and I were doing was not good at all; he `perceived' too many people in the room, he `perceived' me doing things I did not do, and his description of the room itself was quite vague."   See Tart's Introduction to "Journeys Out of the Body".  
(Unless otherwise specified, all my other references to Monroe are drawn from Monroe's "Ultimate Journey.")

In his college days, Monroe gained acclaim for a play he wrote.   It is his creativity as a playwrite that is on display in 3 of his obviously delusory past life experiences during supposed OBEs:  

(a) a prior incarnation as a novice Christian priest invited by his fellow priests to rape "a frightened young girl" who is tied-down and spread-eagled for a kind of spiritual test for Monroe:  Monroe asks us to believe that this girl is a prior incarnation of his wife, Nancy [156f.]:      
(b) a prior incarnation as a cave man pilot of a mentally controlled aircraft that is forced to dodge the spears of primitive hostile natives (157);
(c) an incarnation as a "vibrationist" from a "probably" non-human race whose members "have and use the ability to to manipulate matter to suit whatever need through mental vibrational energy [158-59]."  Of course, one would expect the majority of his prior incarnations to have
been brought to a close through natural causes, it they were genuine.

At best, hominids from a million years ago were just beginning to use primitive stone tools.  Yet Monroe claims to have traveled back in time a million years to encounter an earthly society, two million strong, a society whose humans sleep underground, need no clothes, control body
temperature through mental power, control the weather, and create food like corn through mental power [35ff.].   Modern physical anthropology cannot be so easily ignored!

Even more absurd is Monroe's alleged OBE encounter with an alien who emerges from a flying saucer looking like comedian W.C. Fields.  This alien confesses that his species has come to earth not the study earthly DNA, but to collect jokes [48-50]:  This report reminds me of a Woody
Allen movie "Stardust Memories."  In the movie, a depressed Woody encounters flying saucer creatures and anxiously poses the question, "What is the meaning of life?"  The humanoid creatures reply in a metallic voice, "Make funnier movies--like your early ones."  

But let us assume for the sake of argument that Monroe's drowning sensation is experienced in a genuine OBE.  Gandalf considers various possibilities before dismissing the pneumonia simulation as a mere coincidence: "I don't think that the two events are connected."  "Pneumonia is the fifth leading cause of death in the elderly."  During astral exploration, "this effect is not that uncommon and is often brought on as a form of panic response."  Gandalf overlooks two obvious facts that refute his rationalizations:

(1) In his younger years, Monroe has had two brushes with drowning [68], but no reported astral drowning sensations. By this time, after all, Monroe has become an astral adept.  
2) The issue is not the frequency of pneumonia deaths, but the timing of Monroe's drowning sensation and the role of "god" as the messenger of doom.  Monroe experiences this premonitory warning a few months prior to his death!  His apparent ignorance of the warning's validity is particularly striking in view of his claim to foreknow his "final departure schedule" [16].  How quick many New Agers are to embrace synchronicites as meaningful when these events confirm their dogmas!  

Monroe's ominous encounter with "God" may have been prompted by his longstanding wish: "I would like to meet the Original Designer.  Once [222]."  Gandalf is so threatened by the prospect that the meaningful coincidence was engineered by the true God that he retreats to flights of
fancy:  "This line has been taken completely out of context unfortunately, and you have to read the whole book. . .By this stage, Monroe was encountering. . .other `beings' who projected themselves as all manner of deity forms from mainstream religions."   This is of course nonsense.
A careful reading of UJ does not yield a single additional incident of Monroe's solitary encounter with "deity forms from mainstream religions."   True, Monroe encounters awesome entities like alien beings, He/she, Miranon, and the being near the Aperture who challenges him to produce his "gifts". But contrary to Gandalf's claim for UJ, none of these pretend to be God..  In his encounter with his supposed group soul, he is informed, "No god here as you think of it.  Sorry [192]."

Gandalf prefers to construe "God" as an impostor because it recalls the Old Testament's anthropomorphic God.  The anthropomorphic imagery of God in the Old Testament is not intended to be taken literally.  This God makes it clear that His ways and thoughts are not to be understood anthropomorphically (Isaiah 55:8-9).  To discourage such anthropomorphism God twice declines requests for His name (Genesis 32:29 and Judges 13:18).   In His definitive self-disclosure, God ignores Moses' request for His  name and instead reveals His identity in the
phrase, "Tell them I will be whatever I will be has sent you (Exodus 3:14).  Gandalf unfairly imposes an anthropomorphic spin on the god of Monroe's OBE by claiming that He seems to "need" love and service.  But there is no suggestion that God "needs" anything in Monroe's OBE,
the Old Testament, or any of the posts in the present thread.  Perhaps, human astral advancement depends on love and service to God in ways we cannot fully grasp.

In earlier OBEs, even Monroe regularly displays reverent submission to an awesome figure that he recognizes just might be God's Son.   In "Journeys Out of the Body," we learn of Monroe's
frequent encounters with what appears to be Christ Himself:

"It makes no difference where in Locale II, the event is the same.  In the midst of normal activity, whatever it may be, there is a distant Signal, almost like heraldic trumpets.  Everyone takes the Signal calmly, and with it, everyone stops speaking or whatever he may be doing.  It is the Signal
that He is coming through His Kingdom. . . .It is an occurrence to which all are accustomed and to comply takes absolute precedence over everything.   There are no exceptions.  At the Signal, each living thing lies down--my impression is on their backs. . .with head turned to one side so
that one does not see Him as He passes by.  The purpose seems to be to form a living road over which He can travel.  I have gleaned the idea that occasionally He will select someone from this living bridge, and that person is never seen or heard from again.  The purpose of the abdominal
exposure is an expression of complete submissiveness. . ."  

"In the several times I have experienced this, I lay down with the others.  At the time, the thought of doing otherwise was inconceivable.  As He passes, there is a roaring musical sound and a feeling of radiant, arrestable living force of ultimate power that peaks overhead and fades in the
distance. . .After His passing, everyone gets up again and resumes their activities. . .There is a complete acceptance of the incident as an ordinary part of their lives. . .Is this God?  Or God's Son?  Or His representative [223-23]?"

With the signature trumpets and aura of omnipotence, this figure truly does sound like God's Son, Jesus.  More importantly, His routine practice of performing retrievals everywhere in the presence of all the submissive awestruck denizens of the many various spirit planes should have made His identity and will a top priority for future Monroe exploration.  Instead, Monroe's disdain for the traditional God causes him to close his mind and ignore this obvious priority.  Such is the cultic close-mindedness of many New Agers!

Of course, "God" may have threatened Monroe only to get his attention and inspire his conversion.  In this respect, Gandalf makes another dubious claim that warrants comment:

"Oh and Monroe seems to be doing perfectly well for himself if you accept the accounts of Bruce Moen and his students, who have encountered Bob Monroe several times on their journeys since his death and helped them out with their explorations. . ."  

There are three additional reasons why professed encounters with the posthumous Monroe must be taken with a grain of salt:

(1) The astral insights of Monroe and Moen are contradictory in a
very important matter.  Moen claims to be a parallel incarnation from the same Disk Self as Monroe.  But Monroe is informed in the astral that he has only one parallel incarnation--a female one.  He is also told that "she would seem like a long-lost sister [174]."  Moen reports no such sense of intimacy in his earthly meeting with Monroe.

(2) Monroe's daughter, Laurie, is the President of the Monroe Institute.   She told an acquaintance of mine that her father was in fact no longer making appearances to astral travelers.  She directed this comment to Moenite claims of  ongoing astral contacts with her father.  She and her TMI colleagues are the most likely to know the truth in this regard.  

(3) Even if these encounters are genuine, Swedenborg's astral explorations have uncovered a chilling insight: even the postmortem experiences of those who ultimately gravitate towards a hell initially have very positive experiences: "Most are taken to splendid places because this sort of place delights the outward senses they are involved in ["Heaven and Hell" 2:51)."

As I had said,atheists' NDE encounters with Christ tend to draw a positive response: e. g. When an atheist laments, "But I don't even believe in you!"  Christ typically replies, "But I do believe in you."  The divine threat to Monroe would not be typical of God's style in such astral encounters.  All in all, the best explanation seems to be this: that Monroe's unconscious sensed the impending pneumonia and conjured up a purely hallucinatory symbolization of that illness.  In other words, this experience was just one of Monroe's legion bogus OBEs.

[Gandalf]

Beserk_

Once again it comes down to the basic fact that the academic way does not work when exploring wider reality; I have learned this the hard way. What counts is *personal experience*, everything else is a *guide* nothing else; such 'guide books' are of course very useful but can be superceded or modified by one's own personal experiences or indeed by the subsequent experieces of the original writer. None of Monroe's books or any other explorer contains absolute truth in any way, just the writers own experiences, indeed if you read all three of his books in order, you can see how his perceptions changed as he gathered personal experience.
Unlike most mainstream religious types, most *experienced* astral explorers don't quote written texts as if they were god's truth, indeed you are already behind the times as many new developments have taken place since monroe's time; such books are guides only.

I find that the analogy of the tourist guide book works best here, they all describe the same place and many basic features can be found in all, but the description and personal interpretation of them can vary widely from person to person, however this doesnt mean that the things they all describe are not real.. For this reason, instead of armchair theorising, you have to get off your chair and take a look for youself.

As for Monroe's 'bogus obes' You try to bring in Tart's findings here as if this somehow cast doubt on Monroe's abilites. Once again this shows you have (or at least display) very little practical experience of OBE states. As anyone who does will know, the astral enviroment  often does *not* match the physical one, due to what i call 'reality fluctuations'. This is where your own mind adds things to the local enviroment, if you dont keep the creative/emotional part of your mind under control (which is sometimes just not possible) then the astral enviroment undergoes all kinds of changes.

It is important to note here that when projecting in the 'physical world' you are actually in a subtle realm just behind physical reality, it is so close as to be almost identical; however because it is an astral realm, like any other, it is possible to add your own embelleshments, as it were, leading to all kinds of confusions; in the unexperienced, this leads eventially to the projector fading out of the 'real-time zone' as I call it, and emerging somewhere in the astral that is suited to their mental state.

For this reason, i am not suprised that tart found that monroe reported different things as those found by himself. I have done this myself. Mental additions are all too common.

for example, in one projection I was able to see my own body go outside and check out some local cars parked outside, i checked the colours, types and items inside them so that i could verify the experience later, which i was able to do.

However at the same time, there were some reality fluctuations which were caused by me, such as the fact that although it was dark in 'reality' during my projection it was bright daylight! I saw some diferences in architecture and so on. This is quite consistent with real time zone projections..
Sometimes this is caused by perculiar modifications to your own perception, for example i have experienced 360o sight which lends itself to all kinds of confusions if you dont know whats going on, and can result in you seeing doors in plasces where there were none and so on.

This is why it is very hard to prove obe projections imperically as you cannot simply match up event described by the projectior to those by the recorder, for this reason scientists simply dismiss the findings, meanwhile ignoring those facts which DO match up, although as i say, it is possible for NO details to match up, although this doesnt mean that the event did not occur.

Talking to people in obe states is also common and monroe and others have recorded situations where the individual involved does not remember or was not in that location at the time. However once again, this does not invalidate the experience, it is just more evidence of reality fluctuations. Allthough some people have noticed, like Robert Bruce for example, that individuals spoken to are often vague somehow as if distracted, and has led to suggestions that perhaps we are talking to the subconscous aspects of these peoples minds, which may be true in some cases.

In all the above cases, i hope you can realise that imperically 'proving' obes for others benefits in the usual academic fashion simply does  not work, what counts is getting out there and doing it yourself. It is certainly good and indeed very useful to provide some advice and guidance for others as well as accounts of your own experience, but this is a guide ONLY.
What you seem to overlook in many of your posts here is that some people (although not all) on this forum have had direct experience of obe states and this is no academic exercise and indeed does not translate into armchair theorising.. this is not a theology site, where we all sit around trying to prove which argument is more logical for a completely hypothetical scenario, which is the background you come from. Theologians are very good at proving which hypothetical scenario is more logical than the other but at the end of the day that all it is.. a hypothetical scenario. None of these logic games are based on actual direct personal experience of wider reality.

An additional problem is due to the plastic nature of the astral in which what ever you want to see will be made real, so if a christian has an obe they will see jesus, just as a hindu will see lord Vishnu, etc.

The key in you own explorations is to be 'unexpectant' and see what is there rather than what you expect. This gives you a completely different experience of reality. Again and again those do this find a situation whereby the astral is composed of many belief systems where you find all your mainstream visions of religious realities, then beyond these are the realms of those who have ditched all the human created religious concepts... they arnt any more 'spiritual' than anyone else, they simply have not confined their perceptions into one little box.

Again, much of this doesnt translate into written academically translatable notions.. you just have to get out there yourself and i urge you to do so.

As for monroe and 'god', i'm afraid i just dont find this connection very believable like you do... so what if Monroe never actually 'wrote' that he experienced drowning sensations before, this doesnt mean he never did.... i say again, drowning sensations are a *very common* panic responce and i know this since i have experienced this many times myself, and i see no reason why Monroe might not have done at times, it doesnt mean they are worth noting, in fact this discussion is the first time i have ever done so.. connecting a common panic responce to a later illness does nothing for me.. those who want to find links in things will do so and this is no exception but i find it unlikely.. As for Monroe's jesus encounter, as far as i remember this was in his early work when he was still finding his feet,, the area he describes is one of the 'belief zones' and you may think that this is proof of the reality of Jesus, but you will have to account for all the other zones whee you can see Allah, Mohammed, Shiva, Buddha Zeus etc etc.. they are all there!

Or are you going to tell me that Jesus is the 'Real' god and all others are misconceptions.. very good, except this is excatly the same argument which could be used by any other of the mainstream religions.. leading to a circular argument which leads nowhere..
The idea that ALL these mainstream religions have their places in the 'belief zones' of the lower to mid astral (where like atracts like) is the first idea that actually leads out of this trap. I have noticed that some religious types have noticed this and have actually resorted to adapting this into their beliefs as a way of reinforcing them, which can only be taken as a compliment.
For example, one mustardseed who is a born again christian, now says that there is a 'belief' zone of all beliefs and above this come Jesus and the christian heaven which is real..... once again, any religion can say this and really comes across as a cop out.

Once again, i point out that this revolutionary idea was found through personal experience rather than theorising but is not that revolutionary, since if you look back into the history of occult and mystical literature you will find similar concepts, indicating that some of these people were trying to describe their own personal experiences the same way, the difference being that they were dressed up in mystical mumbo jumbo..
monore came across the same thing but described it in simple practical terms. as do most people nowadays...

A good argument you could use is that the idea that 'like attracts like' and the ideas of 'belief system zones' is itself a belief system construct, but all this does is show that belief system constructs are indeed real, in which case why should mainstream religions like christianity be exempt, esp seeing how they were constructed by theologians here on earth, this makes me trust them even less!

Can i just say that I appreciate the academic approach, as i myself went through 'the academic phase' when just starting out, but after a while i found that this system does not work in exploring wider reality. I came to realise the enormous gap between theology and personal experience, they are in no way connected and theology is just hypothetical logic games (allbeit some very good ones!). You will find this out yourself at some point, I hope.

Merry Christmas!

Douglas

[Telos]

Gandalf, would you describe "reality fluctuations" as "hallucinations?" If not, how are they different?

[Gandalf]

Or even better, what would you describe as an 'hallucination'? What is it? Is it real... what is 'real'?

Douglas