The End

[runlola]

 

[Steve 2B]

runlola,

No not read this one, I went and had a look at his website and read through some of the reviews.

This one seemed an honest appraisal of his work;

http://www.samharris.org/index.php/samharris/full-text/the-independent-uk/

Seems to me just another re-packaging of the same old stuff



Steve

[Gandalf]

In today's world, religion has become something people are afraid to criticize or talk about openly.

I don't know about that. I do criticize it and talk about it openly!

But yeah I know what you mean. Religionists now seem to think they have a right not to be offended. Wrong. I have just as much right to tell them what I think of their religion just as much as they have the right to tell me that I will burn in hell.

As soon as people start bringing in laws to curb free speech, you are going down a bad road, and one in which many of these nuts may find that the laws they brought in to protect their 'right not to be offended' may in turn be used against them by others with differing views.

Doug

[Beth]

Yes Gandalf, we can openly discuss and think critically about religion, especially on forums such as this one, and perhaps this is also the case in the social sphere of Scotland; but here in the US "religion" doesn't even bother to walk softly and has no problem whatsoever wielding its 'Big Stick'.  

Here in the US, the constitution is supposed to support the freedom of religion, all the while protecting the people from a "state sponsored religion."  Well...I watched, over the course of several years, how easily this current administration wooed the fundamentalist Christians for the 2004 presidential election.  From a sociological standpoint, this 'mass mobilization' was quite amazing to watch, but for the many other millions of people--it was without doubt--a very disheartening experience.  

I think the most pressing issue here (though I have not yet read Harris' book) is the 'convenient use of religious faith' to justify the actions of state, whether it be the enactment of law, the dispensation of ethical norms/dictation of morality (upon which the relavant laws are oftentimes interpreted), and/or control over our military and the decision to go to war.  Moreover, most people who are smarter than that ARE NOT BOTHERING TO STAND UP TO THEM!!!!!!!  

Even if Sam's book is repeating what other authors have said before him, here in this country we will probably need books like this on a regular basis---books that challenge this intellectually vapid collective consciousness----until one day it will sink into enough thick skulls and REASON will prevail.

Do I think that religion in general will ever go away?  Probably not.  Too many people are 'needy' for an 'easy answer' that will require nothing of them intellectually, yet provide something that they can relate to, something that will give them power over their lives, and justification for their actions.  That is exactly what religions do.   I cannot think who wrote it (was it Eliade?), but it is a good one:  "God created man in his own image, and man did not hesitate to return the favor."

That is why GOD, for all intents and purposes, acts very HUMAN and fits perfectly in a human world.   What we need I guess is a GOD of REASON, and a HOLY WRIT of RATIONAL THOUGHT.

Peace,
Beth

[patapouf]

To make wars or violent act from distorted religious principles is just one of the many ''ideological playing cards'' that manipulative persons are using. Human rights is now being and has been used also as a tool to create terrible things because there are so much shadowy definitions that can be easily manipulated to one's benefits (like religions). If you search you will find many.... Such as China using human rights to ''protect themselves'' from the ''terrible religious Tibetans'' or Shell shooting down Africans in the name of human rights to supposedly protect there territories, etc, etc. But this do not mean that we have to stop ''believing'' in human rights because it created problems also! We have to use some common sense here and not fall into an anarchist kind of thinking that if something is creating some problem, we have to destroy it completely; we may change for the better and this is what will probably happen. It is not because a knife may kill people that we should stop using it since the meaning of its conception wasn't meant to kill people, and the same for religions and human rights principles if we think about it; it is only us, again, that falls into this trap that some are making for us. And later, what we will see, is that people will have different views of what a ''reasonable'' act may be, and there we go again.... Falling into shadowy definitions and the possibility of manipulations for one persons benefits.

Take care,

[patapouf]

I realized that i may had gone off topic a little, but as for criticizing a religious organizations, I totally agree with you folks; it is clear that many do not necessarily realize that they have fallen into those fundamentalist kind of institutions due to the fact that they have been raised into this particular kind of thinking. It is so important, from whatever background we are from, that we have an open-mind kind of approach at all time; this permits much more opportunities to resolve differences. I sometimes do fall into this trap ( we all do sometimes), I'm not perfect of course, and I try to be open-minded to different views (it is so important dammit) and if I do fall into such traps; I might be grateful to have a kick on the butt to remind me to do so.... Remember that a person that possess an extremist kind of view will perceive others as ''not normal'' to themselves because of their closed-minded approach that just blinds them; basically, they do not see themselves as ''extremists'' and those manipulative people will always remind them not to be open-minded of course, but to follow their guidelines like if their destiny was depending on it.  But by stating ''The End of Faith'', it is some kind of an extremist approach that think that they will resolve many problems if it could happen.... And I can just imagine some people trying to pass laws against ''religious beliefs'' to ''resolve the problems''. Next they will say that cultural differences is causing even more problems so we need to fix it and they will propose the theory of a global culture? Yeah right.... what and who will say ''what we should do and how we should live''? I can just imagine the debate.... I have dealt a lot with such problems in cultural anthropology, it is such a complicated thing.... As a personal opinion, the ''End of Faith'' is a little too far fetch, the ''End of blinded-faith'' more realistic maybe but the end of the ''close-minded kind of approach'' is definitively one of the most important thing we need in this world right now!

Take care,

[Leannain]

religion will end in the future.well i think science will become kinda of a "religion". honestly it is science what can bring happiness to mankind not religions"faith" IMO

[James S]

I've been thinking the same thing Leannain, but I'm not sure about the happiness.

A theory is developed based on a set of observations.  Because it is a "scientific" theory, and because today's society accepts science as being the source of all answers, in blind faith the theory quickly becomes accepted fact. A few years later a different set of observations brings about a whole new theory that overrules the first, and so this new theory is accepted on faith as being fact.

Science has become every bit as much a faith based religion as any other religion. Science has as many if not more fanatics willing to kill in the belief of their faith as any other religion.

As religions go, science is possibly one of the worst. At least the other religions have something at their core that is based around love. Science has only cold dispassionate logic.

[Projector]

Of course religon will end its already been fortold in the bible already. Durr!

[Gandalf]

Of course religon will end its already been fortold in the bible already. Durr!


Classic! pure classic!

Doug

[Ryu-Kanjin]

If i would have responded to this topic a month ago i would have said "Down with religion!!" but i cant anymore lol

Religion is outdated, very outdated, and  i do admit most who follow it are very closed minded lol but i cant hold it againsed them, they were brought up to never question there religion, so they dont, and they are happy.

I dont have anything wrong with any religion, they help people live there lifes , they give them guidlines to live buy, and something to live for (in most cases). But i do agree that we need to loose it, not quickly tho, let it fade slowly as our understanding of the universe increases.

Ive noticed most of the poeple in my generation, even my brother and his friends (im 18 he is 14) are questioning the way we live now (government, religion, almost everything lol) and feel the need for a change.

I willing to bet that in the next 100 years or so, religion will be almost gone, mainly because each generation gets smarter, and when you get millions of very intelegent children who quiestion and come to there own conclusions, you get a generation who will change the world ^^

I have no 'faith' or belief that i follow, so i do get VERY angry when people push there religions on others, espesioly the US government (there a bunch of closed minded idiots with there heads so far up there asses that.....sorry lol), well, the ones in office >.>

Im just going to stay in the backround and raise a family, and hope we dont blow ourselfs up ^^; i hope my children get to grow up in a peacfull world....