The Astral Pulse

Hey, I am Christian and I defend the OBE and every other experience and part of our soul (we all have spirit bodies that God created, saying that it is wrong to expereince this is saying that God is evil and wrong and I am sure you don't believe that).

Also, anything, if it takes control of your life, can become dangerous (food, drugs, tv, video games, books, negative relationships, ETC ETC) and if someone only focuses on OBE and lets every other part of their self and life go, then yes, AP is dangerous.

Furthermore, there is biblical evidence ( a lot of it) that many prophets and others have recieved revelations from OBE's and through their dreams.

Trust me, your Christian friends in their overzealousness have got you twisted my friend.  

Demanding people to accept Christ is not the way to help others, Christ never did that.

Your brother,
Daniel

PS- thanks for moving this Nick.

PSS- to all other members, don't retaliate to Allanon's post, that's what he wants.  Obviously going in and judging everyone like he has is wrong, so don't play his game.

OK Allanon, I get the point, I'm going to burn in hell. Thanks for the warning. By the way, I'm moving this thread to the Astral Chat forum as it's really not in the scope of obe discussions.

All this religion and worship just allows God to get a stranglehold on your soul.

You must turn to the Devil for the redemption of your soul NOW.

There is no other Way out of this.

You may think you will "Live Forever" after you die but that is exactly what Christs first lie was. If you want eternal life and happiness with the Devil you must accept Satan as your Saviour and turn to the World of  Satan. The Bible is absolutely false no matter what "evidence" God puts on the table. I will pray for you Allanon, as I too was once in the snares of good spirits.

Oh yes, meditate, dont pray

Gee.. Satan told me he just wanted to give me some candy if I did what he asked. [:O]

It's all good, people. I got Satan to sell me HIS soul. He's MY biznitch now. Booya!

It's really quiet simple Allanon
you choose your own existance and destination.
(http://www.gif.com/ImageGallery/Animated/Animals/3D/Dove.gif)


Or

(http://images.animfactory.com/animations/birds/vultures/vulture_snacking_md_wht.gif)
Think about it....think hard!

Oh no.....not again!

Hi,

It's worth considering that astral projection, lucid dreaming, and regular dreaming are fundamentally the same experience, with the main difference being how much consciousness you have access to during the experience.  I will discuss below why I have come to believe this(I know some people will disagree), but assuming just for the moment that it MIGHT be true, then it might also follow that AP and lucid dreaming are no more "sinful" or wrong for devout Christians than the dreams all of us have every night?

The non-physical planes are very thought responsive, and the more thoughts you have active, the more I believe they influence the "reality" around you in those states.  When you are dreaming normally, I think it is mostly your sub-conscious creating everything you experience and you primarily perceive what the sub-conscious creates.  When you "awaken" in a dream, I personally find that there seem to be varying degrees of "consciousness" that you wake up with.  Sometimes you are only partially awake, and then your subconscious seems to be very active creating things that probably would not be there without your presence making the experience feel more dreamlike than a typical astral projection.  Some of my lucid dreams have been as crystal clear as any consciously induced AP and when this happens I can tell no difference between the two other than how I got there.  I have also found that I can create clarity and bring much more consciousness into a lucid dream when I remember to make a conscious effort to do this.

Personally I do not hold to any dogma Christian or otherwise, but even if you do, it might be worth considering whether or not the dreams that god gave to each and every one of us can really be considered "wrong"?  Is choosing to learn to experience your dreams more consciously any more wrong than choosing to learn to pay more attention to your physical life and living it with more clarity and consciousness?  It's worth thinking about...  [:)]

--Soulfire

G'day Folks!

A fun topic by the looks of it all....

But it has a serious side.

I have known a number of devout born again type christians to experience spontaneous OBE.  They have told their church that they were 'taken up' and shown visions.  This is recieved well by churches as the 'terminology' used to describe OBE experiences fits their paradigms.

This only goes to show that it is not so much the experience of OBE, but the 'terminology' used to describe it that matters to devout christian type people.

On a more serious note, this type of fundamental christian view of OBE can cause a great deal of harm.  Many christians, including ministers, I have know and helped, who have experienced OBE related symptoms, eg, paralysis, rapid heartbeat, vibrations, etc, interpret this as major satanic attack.  The symptoms thus needlessly terrorize and traumatize them, when they are actually just harmless and natural phenomena.

With regard to 'letting go of ones mind', or emptying the mind, etc, newage and Eastern terminology also gets in the way. If you use terms like 'focusing the mind' or 'clearing the mind' or 'quietening the mind' then christians take less offense.  The act of clearing the mind involves strength and discipline, and such a mind is far less vulnerable to negative influences than any other 'non disciplined' mind.

Keep all this in mind when you discuss these matters with christians as a simple change in terminology can overcome most such arguments.

Also, I always wonder about the other 80% of the world's population that are non christian when I come across this type of dogmanic argument. But then again, they probably think the same way about the christians.

Btw, are you aware that there is absolutely 'no' historical proof to support 'anything' written in the new testament?  The only thing that supports biblical history is the bible itself. This is fact that can be ascertained through historical records and university religious studies. The earliest historical evidence of christianity and the bible are a few late-third century 'fingernail sized' fragments that historians consider could 'possibly' be fragments of a very early version of the bible.

There is a big difference between 'popularly believed' history and 'real' history that can be supported by hard evidence.  However, most christians are not interested in the 'real' truth, only in the 'comfortable' truth.

Also note that freedom of thought is 'actively' discouraged in fundamentalist type christian churches, where members are told what to think and what to believe, so this situation is likely to remain unchanged.


Take care, Robert.

I believe that the Bible was created in the middle ages, to increase the oppression of the underclass. For hundreds of years, theres been a conspiracy of the Plutocrats against ordinary people, and religion is the weapon of the upperclass.

Allanon,
I'm going to take PeacefulWarriors advice here, as I respect his opinion, and not retaliate.

Having been a 'born again' christian myself for 16 years, during which time I studied the bible quite carefully, I can assure you that for as many arguments that you can bring here in support of the bible being 'the one and only truth', there are easily as many against, and all you will be doing is wasting hard-drive space on the AstralPulse server with text files full of circular arguments.

There are a number of christians on this site, including Daniel, who are here because of real life experiences that maybe cannot be specifically explained in the Bible. They have learned to accept these experiences not as satanic, but as one of the many gifts that our creator has to offer us, if only we open our minds to the possibilities.

Regards,
James.

In another post, Allanon wrote: "Jesus Christ is Lord and the Devil is nothing more than a selfish creation."...contradiction !

By the way, Allanon i have a request ! Could you contact the "musee d'histoire naturelle" in Paris ? It is a museum where you could find your place, the scientific staff there would be amazed and very excited to have a specimen of a near extinct specie : catholicus ignitus...a very dangerous specie...more dangerous than Hitler in fact. Thank you Allanon, for reminding us the good old words which have sent millions people to burn in public places in europa.
May your idol give you some maturity if it is in its power...

Hi again guys,

You might not agree with Allanon's views, but there is nothing good that is going to come out of attacking him personally.  

In all fairness, Allanon is not the same person who committed the atrocities in the name of the Christian faith you speak of, so "blaming" him for them just because you perceive his mindset to be similar to the people who did those things is blatantly unfair.  All I have seen Allanon be "guilty" of is posting messages on here trying to help people according to the beliefs he has.

It's fine that we have different beliefs, but to attack people for expressing them puts us on the same level (and comes from the same energy) as the people who committed the atrocities you mentioned.  The best way to honor God (whether you are religious or not) is to act with understanding and love towards each other.

--Soulfire

why do you keep hanging out in this "devil's forum", allanon?  perhaps you have had similar experiences or are fascinated by this stuff, but don't want to admit it to yourself.  and then you feel guilty and afraid and most especially lost, because you find yourself questioning your religion and retaliate against your feelings by "thumping" your bible at us (at yourself?).  it just seems strange to me that someone like you would even bother going through the trouble of coming into a place like this (of all places!) to preach.  instead of working yourself into a furious frenzy here, why don't you just chill and have nice conversations in a christian forum?  or go and preach at people who are lost and lonely and need a dogmatic religion to tell them what to do and help (lead) them through life.  i think here most of the people are going to be a fairly stubborn lot... we have that horrible problem of thinking for ourselves.  are you an internet missionary or something?

hmm you're right, Soulfire ! I apologize, i was furious !!! I must admit that i am still furious against the Church in general and to see people acting "missionary"...we all know how awfull the acts of missionary people are on foreign cultures ...knowing that i can't understand this kind of behaviour...
bah...we all do mistakes...

I think I must narrow the scope of this topic down a little.....

AP is fine by me under one condition. That condition being that you accpet Jesus the Christ as your personal messiah first before you attepmt to project.

Whether you are aware of it or not most of the thoughts that come to you from projecting are as a result of spiritual influeces that are usually bad ones.

These false spirits make you beleive that when you die you are not really gong to be dead!!!! That is just what they want you to think. They do not want you to inherit eternal life from the Son.

You can fight it all you want but I know that EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU ON THIS BOARD FEELS THE TRUTH THAT IS CHRIST.

Let me know of any spirit that can dare stand up face to face to the One True God that created them all.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allanon

Let me know of any spirit that can dare stand up face to face to the One True God that created them all.

---

Oh, hello anthropomorphism.

I agree entirely with Soulfire's views on projections / dreams etc. And with Robert Bruce's points about the terminology we use...sometimes it upsets people who are devout.

Allanon, you said :

quote:

---

These false spirits make you beleive that when you die you are not really gong to be dead!!!! That is just what they want you to think. They do not want you to inherit eternal life from the Son.

---

We should bear in mind here that christianity has far more points in common with other religions than points of difference.
i.e. All religions believe death is not the end....All religions believe in a divine creator.

As such, the differences between religions are often semantic. Perhaps the differences between astral projection, and associated belief systems/ philosophies are not too far removed from religions / christianity ? i believe they have a lot in common, yet we continue to focus on the differences.

Allanon, do you think there is any common ground between christianity and astral projection ?.

regards
Mark

I only have a few words on this. I'm a Christian and attend a good size Church of the Nazarene. I believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I believe that all things are possible with God. Christianity teaches this but has trouble accepting the "ALL" part. Why is it so hard? Christianity and the Bible, I believe, were tainted, from the time the Romans made Christianity the state religion and also through medieval times as kings dictated the translation of books and scrolls. Martin Luther disregarded the book of Revelation altogether (I was raised Lutheran). God gave man free will so why is it so hard to accept that man, for ulterior motives, altered the word. Man has disobeyed God since Adam and Eve. We are also taught to glorify God in all we do. I'm not justifying anything here but if our heart is right and we use these experiences and skills for good and to his glory then I believe there is nothing wrong here. It's when we have the "Love" of money, or career, or AP, or sports where it becomes more important than God, that it becomes a tool of the devil. We are eternal beings, that is in the bible.

Allanon,
I see a lot of judgement in your post. FWIW, Love as Jesus did.

And also i have this question.. that i never understood when reding the Holy Bible:
Ii writes in the Holy Bible that God can see everything and know everything.. But there is somewhere where God is speaking: "Adam where are you.. Why are you hiding ?"
Why is that ? That is after Adam and Eve ate that apple..

quote:

---

Christianity and the Bible, I believe, were tainted, from the time the Romans made Christianity the state religion and also through medieval times as kings dictated the translation of books and scrolls.

---

Are there any Christians on this board with any faith whatsoever? Not to be judgemental but if there is a perfect God like Christianity supports than whatever is in the Bible is TRUE AND INCORUPTABLE. The message that needs to be conveyed to man is there even if the curruptable Holy Roman Empire was the tool that translated the Bible into its current form.

As far as Astral Projection is concerned I beleive that you must look at the fruits of what is being done. If you are being led to beleive that you will live forever without the blood of Chrsit than it is a FALSE SPIRIT that is influencing you. But if you are projecting around and have the Holy Spirit guiding you than there is less of a problem there. Leaving your body without supernatural interference like what happens to those in the Bible is like trying to walk on water without the help of God. YOU ARE NOT THE CAUSE OF ANY MIRACLE AND LEAVING YOUR BODY IS JUST THAT.

When you die you are dead. Period. Any NDE or astral projection that says otherwise is the fruit of Lucifer. In order to inherit eternal life you must be aligned with Jesus Christ. He is the only One with the power to conquer death.

Are there any Christians on this board with any faith whatsoever?  


To defend Christianity on this board is not a matter of faith, but patience, while to share it is an exercise in insanity. Im afraid im out of patience and my sanity is already suspect.

Allanon

How exactly does Christ outlaw astral projecting and where are you getting this information?  What you need to realise is what you are trying to force on everyone is just your own personal beleifs and beliefs don't shape reality.  I certainly beleive in Chirst but not Christianity anymore because of all the ignorance like this.  Even though I believe in Christ I don't think he is the only way because if that were true there is no telling how many people would be in hell compared to heaven and that is not a characteristic of a loving God.  About the bible I don't reject it but I don't think it's the infalible word of God because of all the contradictions and odd things in there.  Shouldn't Christians also believe they will live forever after they die if they believe in eternal life?

This page here realates to this because it deals with NDEs being satanic and it answers the typical religious arguments against it so I suggest everyone check it out.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen01.html

Allanon:

Your intolarance is what book burning is all about. You fear of other people's ideas and you blame anything that does not fit into your little dogmatic box of believes on the mytholgy of the devil. Your intolarance is the type that made women with traditional knowldge of herbs and medicines burn at the stake, at the urging of the medical establishment of the 16th century. You are no better than radicals like Osama bin Laden. You take a good book with very vague teachings and which has been politicaly manipulated by the former Roman empire (i.e. the Vatican in the 4th century) into its present state, and claim its The word of God??? And how do you know this? You don't. You just have faith and a few self-fulfilling prophecies (a war in the middle east? duh!!).  

So the validty of your believes is equal to the believes of a native in the amazon.

What next Allanon? Burn a few non-christian place of worship?? Bomb a few abortion clinics? Dance with poisonous snakes? Another Inquisition? More witchhunting? Read your History. Thats one thing about you radicals: you only read what your pastor or priest approves. Expand your Mind. Don't let others give you YOUR opinion.

And by the way, meditation IS a form of prayer. Why do you fear it?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allanon

Let me know of any spirit that can dare stand up face to face to the One True God that created them all.

---

Oh i know one...you. How can you say that you KNOW ? (not very humble in my opinion)
Who are you to say that you know that all in the Bible is true ?
Can you answer honestly to this question:
Did you REALLY (i mean really) met Jesus in person ? Or God ?
Don't you think that it is time to start thinking by yourself and try to go beyond what some people pretended to have heard from others people and written in a book ? Did you ever been in another dimension, met a spirit or having a near death experience ? Do you think we all must waiting stupidly until we are dead to discover the truth beyond death ? What do you propose then ? To pray ? And after ? Is this an efficient technique to realise the totality of yourself ? Did God gave you this wonderful body to waste it, staying eyes closed and totally closed to the infinity of the universe ?
I have been a Christian too, did all the sacraments (except the last one [;)])...so i know what is in the Bible, i know what are the teachings, i even been in a monastery for some time !!!
I don't condamn the religion (even if i am "vaccinated" for it know) but i condamn your attitude wich will not help you to meet God at all believe me. Start experiencing, leave your books ! The Bible became the new golden idol, take care [;)]
Again sorry for my english.
PS: there are other spirits than Christ, and if you think there are not as powerful and don't exist...you're going to have a monumental surprise one of these days

I consider myself a 'true Christian' but I don't consider the Bible infallible.  In fact I am sure it has been changed many times by accident as well as on purpose.  Many simple and precious truths have been lost because of deceitful men.

Besides, most people don't realize that the Bible (La Bibbia) is a collection of books, that's what the word Bible means= BOOKS.  It wasn't put together by Christ or even any of the Apostles or anything, it was put together much later by the Catholic church and others.  

I read the Bible and follow it's teachings, but more importantly are the living waters, the direct revelation and ongoing religous expereince to have had through prayer, meditation and living one's life in a way that allow you to recieve truth at any time and in every moment.

Greetings Allanon,

Whilst we most certainly respect your right to believe in anything you will, evangelising on these forums will get you nowhere at all.

Please support your claims and positions with facts and experience.

I would like to followup on an excellent point made by Robert:

quote:

---

Btw, are you aware that there is absolutely 'no' historical proof to support 'anything' written in the new testament? The only thing that supports biblical history is the bible itself. This is fact that can be ascertained through historical records and university religious studies. The earliest historical evidence of christianity and the bible are a few late-third century 'fingernail sized' fragments that historians consider could 'possibly' be fragments of a very early version of the bible.

---

All of christianity is based around the words contained in the bible, which is, in and of itself, extremely suspect. What fragments have been found were translated and retranslated, interpreted and reinterpreted by the various factions of the church, all with view to creating a religion to control the masses. To that end they succeeded to a certain extent, notwithstanding the extreme genocide and bloodshed that seems to have followed religion throughout the centuries, and the "commandment" "thou shalt not kill".

If the bible was presented as evidence of the happenings of 2000 years ago, then it would be rejected outright as hearsay.

Please feel free to contribute your views, but when you make remarks like:

quote:

---

All this projection and letting go of your mind just allows the Devil to get a stranglehold on your soul.

There is no other Way out of this.

You may think that you will "live forever" after you die but that is exactly what Satan's first lie was. If you want eternal life and happiness with God you must accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour and turn to the Word of God. The Bible is absolutely true no matter what "evidence" Satan puts on the table.

---

Please support it with evidence, and remember, the bible is inadmissible.

Finally a word of caution. In the lower Astral there are levels known as the "belief system territories", some of which are analogous to "hells". These are the places people are attracted to after they pass on from the physical world due to strongly held religious beliefs they will not let go of. Only when the residents there see there beliefs for the illusions they are can they progress to the mid-Astral worlds and higher where most decent people dwell.

I would respectfully suggest you consider these things deeply.

With best regards,

Adrian.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adrian

Greetings Allanon,

Whilst we most certainly respect your right to believe in anything you will, evangelising on these forums will get you nowhere at all.

---

totally agree. There are so much people here, who escaped, at last one time, of the fishing bowl of reality... you'll have hard times to meet some sympathy here, trying to impose us those old dogms...i would say those old tricks [;)]

As a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints we rely on many other books of scripture, some modern day scripture even...and most importantly ongoing revelation both personal and from a prophet, just like the ancient Christians.

God does not outlaw AP. That is the whole purpose of free choice. But you will REAP consequences for communing with demons and fallen spirits. You can fight the Bible all you want but on your death bed you BETTER MAKE SURE YOU ARE SQUARED AWAY WITH CHRIST!!

You New Agers have no standard by which to base your morality. You have a book written by Robert Bruce that is a MAN MADE creation.

The Bible is the Word of God and is verified by the many prophecies and eye witness accounts of the apostles.

JESUS CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD. NO NEW AGE IDEOLOGY OR MYSTIC RELIGON EVEN CLAIMS THIS. THEY ARE ALL DEAD IN THERE GRAVES. CHRIST STILL LIVES AND WANTS YOU TO LIVE TOO!!! ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS EXCEPT GOD'S PLAN RATHER THAN MAN'S.

wow please don't shout [B)]

Greetings Allanon,

I am very tempted to analyse and respond to your claims in detail. However I will refrain from doing so [:)]

I would just like to say there is no judgement in the Universe. Everything and everyone in the Universe is subject to the same immutable laws of cause and effect on the path back to our creator. No belief in ancient texts or persons will alter that one iota.

With best regards,

Adrian.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allanon

God does not outlaw AP. That is the whole purpose of free choice. But you will REAP consequences for communing with demons and fallen spirits. You can fight the Bible all you want but on your death bed you BETTER MAKE SURE YOU ARE SQUARED AWAY WITH CHRIST!!

You New Agers have no standard by which to base your morality. You have a book written by Robert Bruce that is a MAN MADE creation.

The Bible is the Word of God and is verified by the many prophecies and eye witness accounts of the apostles.

JESUS CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD. NO NEW AGE IDEOLOGY OR MYSTIC RELIGON EVEN CLAIMS THIS. THEY ARE ALL DEAD IN THERE GRAVES. CHRIST STILL LIVES AND WANTS YOU TO LIVE TOO!!! ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS EXCEPT GOD'S PLAN RATHER THAN MAN'S.

---

Jesus still lives? Ooooh yeahh now I remember, I think he changed my tires last week.

Actually Allanon, I follow the word of the Vedas and the Upanisads, which were both concieved and written LONG, LONG before your Bible was collected and butchered by King James or whoever. I think it was said, what, that the vedas originated 10,000 years ago and were written down in sanscrit about 5000yrs ago?

The vedas are considered by many, many people to be the direct knowledge of the gods. These people considered this a long time before the apostles recieved the 'word of god'.

Even Jesus's own religion has it's mystical Kabala, which holds the real keys to the wisdom of the bible and Judaism. Sadly the true followers of the mystical christos have all but died out in favor of a blind institution who's lost all meaning.


Oh did I mention I say this prayer every night before bed?

quote:

---

"I believe in the Devil, the Father Almighty of Evil, the Destroyer of all things, Perturbator of Heaven and Earth;
And in Anti-Christ, his only Son, our Persecutor,
Who was conceived of the Evil Spirit;
Born of a sacrilegious, foolish Virgin;
Was glorified by mankind, reigned over them,
And ascended to the throne of Almighty God,
From which he crowds Him aside, and from which he insults the living and the dead;
I believe in the Spirit of Evil;
The Synagogue of Satan;
The coalition of the wicked;
The perdition of the body;
And the Death and Hell everlasting. Amen."

---

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/isis/iu2-10a.htm [:D]

To all who would evangelize, and by this I don't mean just Allanon, I mean everyone who has a powerful spiritual message he wishes to communicate:

There are good and bad ways to evangelize.  Or more like, there are effective ways, and useless ways, and downright counterproductive ways, to deliver the message of Christ.  

Allanon, you are not evangelizing at all.  Read your posts: You come across in a threatening manner.  If you intended to start a flame war, you may or may not have gotten exactly what you wanted.  However, if you really wanted people to accept Christ, you have  failed big-time.  Can you understand this?

Ye shall be known by your fruits.  The effective christian evangelist, the one who truly GETS Jesus, has a loving glow that can be felt even across the Internet. He/she is kind, does the right thing, and gives loving advice in a loving way. People think, "I want to be peaceful and loving and happy and right with God, how did he/she get that way?"  And then they ask questions, and the evangelist responds with his/her story. This is how it's done.

The rest of you . . . Jesus is alive and well and happy to let you get to Know him if that's what you want.  You don't need to be threatened into conversion, in order to Know This.  Therefore, I suggest everyone treat online religious threats the way you'd react to any street-corner evangelist . . . give him a wide berth, and keep on walking.

God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

well said.
I just hope we will be able to "walk" in this forum without being too much "embarassed" with evangelists...[B)]

Greetings Tab.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tab
Actually Allanon, I follow the word of the Vedas and the Upanisads, which were both concieved and written LONG, LONG before your Bible was collected and butchered by King James or whoever. I think it was said, what, that the vedas originated 10,000 years ago and were written down in sanscrit about 5000yrs ago?

---

Yes, I have great respect for the teachings the Vedas and Upanishads.

We must also remember Hermes Trismegisus who lived 4000 to 5000 years ago, one of the fathers of true knowledge and of alchemy.

The bible in contrast is a relatively recent collection of texts of unknown origin.

A quote from the Upanishads: By understanding the self, all this Universe is known

Also from Vedanta: Atman (individual consciousness) and Brahman (Universal consciousness) are one

With best regards,

Adrian.

Hi allanon,

I USED to be a born again Christian.  I grew up as an atheist, but around age 20 I started leaning towards christianity.  I was baptized on my 21st birthday and poured my heart into christianity.  I was as earnest a christian as I have ever met.  I went to a christian college, studied the bible, spent a lot of personal time in prayer, and even had a lot of external support from bishops and the seminary to become a minister.

I tried very hard to be a good christian.  During those years however, there were many things that did not feel "right" to me.  Certain things just did not make sense no matter how hard I tried to believe them and how much I prayed for help to understand and believe them.  As I learned more about the bible and how it came into existance, and compared the many different version of the bible and saw not just minor differences, but the basis for different groups of people to extract completely different and conflicting doctrines from those versions, I began to have serious doubts.  

As just one example, some churches assure you that once you accept Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your heart that you are saved for eternity.  They can point to various scriptures to support this.  Other churches will tell you that you are saved only so long as you continue to follow Jesus and they can point to scriptures that seem to support this also.  Radically different beliefs about arguably the most important central issue of Christianity (salvation) that can be legitimately argued from the point of the same Holy Bible that is supposedly infallible.

Then I noticed something else: most of the christian people I knew were not really manifesting any better or more godly behavior in their day to day lives than the many non-christians I knew.  Trying not to "point the finger" at other people, I decided to look at myself and then I realized something even more important:

I WAS NOT BECOMING ANY BETTER A PERSON AS A CHRISTIAN THAN I WAS BEFORE.  I was just as selfish, had just as much trouble being truly loving, I was very quick to judge other people and make them "wrong" (which often made it very easy for me to treat them with less than the true love Christ himself advocated towards all people), I struggled with lust constantly and felt dirty and guilty, etc.  I prayed about these things, asked for help from God, tried to fight them with my will, etc.  After about 6 years of this, I had to honestly admit to myself that I had become a "worse" person than I ever was before...steeped in obscure guilt and fear that I could not consciously identify and explain but that I still felt.  Eventually I abandoned all spirituality altogether and this went on for at least 5 or more years.  I still made an effort to be kind and considerate and adhere to my moral principles, but I disassociated from any thoughts of God or Jesus, etc.

During an all time low point of my life, I prayed again to please show me a way back to a true relationship with God.  Slowly, over the weeks and months and ultimately years that followed, I began reading spiritual books and having personal life experiences that held profound teachings for me.  It was a long process, but I have come thus far to a point where I am able to be more loving than I ever have before, more understanding of other people, much more conscious of the joys that were always there in my day to day life but which I was unable to see before, and feela much closer relationship to God in my own personal way than I ever have before.  I no longer struggle with lust and guilt because I came to understand WHY casual sex was wrong instead of just "because the Bible sais so".

Now to any fundamental Christian doctrine unless it is one that swears by the "once saved always saved" version of the bible, I am no longer technically a Christian.  There are many ways I have come to believe differently than the Christians, but the most important one is probably that I do not believe Jesus' death attoned for or erased my sins.  Now I know according to your doctrine I was deceived by Satan.  By the way, just for the record, none of this had anything to do with OBEs or thinking I found an easier path to immortality or anything like that.  It happened because I slowly discovered from my own experience that this "unique and personal to me" spiritual path led to better "fruits" that actually manifested in my life and consciousness following the Christian dictrines.

Which brings me to this:

In every external way, my behavior is more loving and ideally "christianlike" than it ever was when I was a Christian.  Internally, I feel closer to "God" in a personal way than I ever have before.  All of my beliefs make sense to me now and feel "right".  Because I have trained my mind to focus, I do not have all the wandering "sinful thoughts" floating through my head all the time.  By the way, have you ever noticed that when you DO have those "sinful thoughts" that they ALWAYS come when your mind is in control instead of being focused or deeply conscious?  You can train the mind to get past that, but the Bible will not teach how to do it in a way that 99.00% of the people who read it will ever come to understand enough to apply successfully to their lives.

If this is supposedly the fruit of being deceived, how can I look at it as BAD?  If I am wrong and God "throws me away" to rot in Hell after I die when I did the very best I know how to be the best and most loving person I can possibly be, just because no matter how hard I tried (and asked for God's help) I could not come to "deeply" understand that Jesus dying for our sins somehow "saves" us...then what does that say?  You might say I am judging God and that is a sin, but I am not: I am questioning the set of BELIEFS that some people have about God that try to paint that picture of what God is like.

Quite frankly, if I am completely wrong and God really is just like that and cannot see or appreciate how hard I try and the good that is in me and the love that I work very hard to bring to the world, and chooses instead to "throw me away" to rot in hell, then I say that a God who would do that would be closer to my idea of a Tyrant and not a loving father.  A loving father does not throw away his child because the child does not or cannot follow in his exact footsteps.  No loving father would condemn his beloved child to rot eternally in agony for ANY reason, but most particularly not because they could not understand and accept one supreme concept that is based on something that happened 2000 years ago and there is NO historically credible evidence to support and which totally defies reason.  You might argue that this central "truth" is supposed to defy reason and that it can unly be understood with the help of the Holy Spirit.  Well I cannot count the number of times and hours I prayed fervently to be helped to understand that with the purest of heart and intentions, but if the God as you believe him to be ever heard me, the answer he gave me was a very firm "NO".

I can only conclude from all of this that either that particular perception of God is not very accurate, or that for some reason God did not want me.  If God just did not want me, then I never had a chance and was going to rot away in hell no matter what I did.  So I choose to live the best life I can and bring as much love into the world as I can learn how to, and then when I die I will try to continue to do so from the realm of spirit.  If God prevents me from doing that and tries to send me to Hell, then I will do whatever feels "right" to me then just as I try to do now...

--Soulfire

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allanon

The Bible is the Word of God and is verified by the many prophecies and eye witness accounts of the apostles.

---

With all due respect, all the apostles were dead hundreds of years before anything resembling the modern Bible was ever created.  Even the oldest original documents known to man from which the modern Bible was translated and interpreted were themselves created long after the Apostles or any hoistorically "direct" witnesses to Christ were dead.  

When you study and learn more about the difficulties of translation from those texts and about the process that was used when the church got together to decide which documents out of the thousands of those available were to be made "canon" and which were decided to be apocrapha and pseudapigrapha (sp?) you will begin to see clearly why the modern Bible's accuracy can be questioned.

The main argument against this is that God would not "allow" any faults in the holy text even through the vast amount of human power struggles and pettiness they were filtered through during the creation of the holy writings.  If this were true, how can we have two different Holy Bibles that cannot even agree on the central concept of EXACTLY what constitutes salvation?

If this is true, how can we have a Catholic church with it's own version of the Holy Bible from which they somehow derive the concept that not all Christians are saved, only the Catholics?  Admittedly in recent years they have quit saying this quite so loudly in quite so abrasive a way, but if you look closely at the practices of the church you will see clear evidence that this is still a quiter aspect of "fundamental" catholic doctrine.  They cannot marry a non-catholic unless they agree to raise the kids catholic (because to do otherwise would condemn the kids to hell) and get married in a catholic church.  All of this comes from an interpretation of a different version of the Holy Bible that protestants use.  If God really wanted to make sure there was NO AMBIGUITY on anything that pertains to the essentials of Salvation, how can you explain this?  Furthermore, this is only one example of MANY that pose similar dilemas.

I'm not here to knock anybody's religion, catholic or otherwise.  If it helps you be who you desire to be in your heart of hearts then it is absolutely right for you.  What I AM saying is that the more you study and understand the history of the bible and the world during that time and the process of it's creation by man, the more you can see enough "holes" in the popular and accepted Christian doctrines not to be able to realistically expect everyone else to believe it exactly the same way you choose to.

--Soulfire

quote:

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God does not outlaw AP. That is the whole purpose of free choice. But you will REAP consequences for communing with demons and fallen spirits. You can fight the Bible all you want but on your death bed you BETTER MAKE SURE YOU ARE SQUARED AWAY WITH CHRIST!!

---

Where does God say that it has anything to do with demons shouldn't they be in hell?  Would God really give satan and demons that much power over people?    

quote:

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You New Agers have no standard by which to base your morality. You have a book written by Robert Bruce that is a MAN MADE creation.

---

Not every projector is a new ager but where do you get this information?  I don't think anyone here denies that astral dynamics is a man made creation and there is nothing wrong with that because it's a great guide and doesn't claim to be anything else but the bible is also a man made creation.  

quote:

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The Bible is the Word of God and is verified by the many prophecies and eye witness accounts of the apostles.

---

How are you so sure that apostles accounts are accurate when there is no real evidence for this?  If it was the infalible word of God there wouldn't be so many contradictions and stupid things in it and that is undeniable.  Here is just one of many examples of stupid verses that satan or these demons couldn't have made up because it's right in the bible so is this really the word of God?  

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him, and bring him to the elders at the gate of the town. They shall say to the elders "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of this town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid." Deuteronomy Chapter 21:18

quote:

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JESUS CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD. NO NEW AGE IDEOLOGY OR MYSTIC RELIGON EVEN CLAIMS THIS. THEY ARE ALL DEAD IN THERE GRAVES. CHRIST STILL LIVES AND WANTS YOU TO LIVE TOO!!! ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS EXCEPT GOD'S PLAN RATHER THAN MAN'S.

---

Again this is just your personal belief which you can't see past and beliefs do not shape reality.  Your obviously fanatical about this and so convinced so you feel everyone else should believe just as you do but there are so many different beleifs out there with people who feel the same way about their beleifs but who are you to say yours is the only right one?  This my god is better then your God stuff is getting old.    

Greetings Soulfire,

Excellent posts; thank you very much indeed for sharing your experiences with us.

With best regards,

Adrian.

quote:

---

Ye shall be known by your fruits. The effective christian evangelist, the one who truly GETS Jesus, has a loving glow that can be felt even across the Internet. He/she is kind, does the right thing, and gives loving advice in a loving way. People think, "I want to be peaceful and loving and happy and right with God, how did he/she get that way?" And then they ask questions, and the evangelist responds with his/her story. This is how it's done.

---

When you see someone walking aound with a snake attached to there ankle do you lovingly try to talk it off of them or do you smash it like the Devil it is.

Remembering me at the time of death close down the doors to the senses and place the mind in the heart, then while absorbed in meditation focus all energy upwards towards the head, repeating in this stae the Divine name the sylable OM you will go forth from the body and attain the supreme goal....

Taken from the Bhagavad Gita this stance if I remembered it correctly directly corresponds to Satan's first lie..... Ye shall shurely not die. All you have to do is direct your energy currents corectly when you die and you will pass on to heaven. Death is an illusion as your real "self" is really what is in control.

The Upanishads and the Gita are DEMON WORSHIP. I pity the soul that beleives he can save Himself from death without the help of Christ.

YOU CANNOT PAY BACK FOR YOUR SINS, ONLY GOD CAN.

PANTHEISTIC, MYSTICAL RELIGONS AND IDEOLOGIES ARE THE TOOLS OF SATAN TO BLIND YOU FROM THE SAVING GRACE OF JESUS CHRIST.

THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY, THE NARROW PATH AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.

Greetings Allanon,

I really have to caution you about your tone and attitude. These forums exist for open sensible discussions, not bible thumping. If you want to do that I suggest a soap box in the town square.

If you can provide evidence and/or a duly considered basis for your position then please let us hear it. Otherwise I suggest you leave this topic alone.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Hello Allanon,

If it is the narrow path, why are there so many Christians?  That is not "few."  When they said few, I believe they really meant few.  I also disagree that it is impossible to pay back for sins.

If a man would like to lift a heavy weight, can he do it just because he believes he can?  No, he has to exercise, he has to experience, he has to learn.  It is not so simple and knowledge is the gateway to heaven (or should I say heavens), not beliefs.

Please, go out and look for some experiences.  Give astral projection a chance.  After all, if you listen and succeed and that is really a sin, God is just and will punish me for recommending you to do that.

Right?

Kevin.

...
bwahahahahaha

If nothing else Al, you make for some great entertainment. Do you have any idea the true origins of your beliefs? The egyptians, sumerians, and aryans of the indus all shared similar beliefs due to a common root. These egyptian beliefs were then recycled by Moses (Blavatsky states that the hebrew language itself is nothing but egyptian writing phallicized) and turned into the main Hebrew religion after the exile. It is that as well as the mixing of Hebrew with chaldean beliefs which forms the basis of the Judaism that Jesus was born into, and the religion founded in his name is a combination of that, his teachings, and the popular greek/pagan beliefs of the time. Jump on the logic train and you'll realize that your beliefs are really just those of the ancient Hindus recycled, corrupted, and distorted by exotericism.

As I have said before and will say again, it's a real shame the west is so horribly ignorant of it's beliefs and their roots. Calling such things as the vedas demon worship, it's laughable, but also very sad.

I worship no entity but my own self. If you are asserting that that is demon worship, well, thanks a lot buddy :P

I call the Bible and Christianity Idol worship, but not because of outrageous claims of Satanic influence as you have, merely because to anthropomorphize god and worship him is to create a spiritual idol out of the pure untainted principle that is the true God.
As far as Satan goes, don't get me started. Do you have any idea where that dogma comes from? Look into it some time, you'll find out that Satan is a bunch of BS.

(http://smilies.crowd9.com/cwm/3dlil/eek13.gif)

Allanon Dont ever go into sales.  Its not really your strong point.  I was thinking of converting until I read your post.

k maybe not.

quote:

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If nothing else Al, you make for some great entertainment. Do you have any idea the true origins of your beliefs? The egyptians, sumerians, and aryans of the indus all shared similar beliefs due to a common root. These egyptian beliefs were then recycled by Moses (Blavatsky states that the hebrew language itself is nothing but egyptian writing phallicized) and turned into the main Hebrew religion after the exile. It is that as well as the mixing of Hebrew with chaldean beliefs which forms the basis of the Judaism that Jesus was born into, and the religion founded in his name is a combination of that, his teachings, and the popular greek/pagan beliefs of the time. Jump on the logic train and you'll realize that your beliefs are really just those of the ancient Hindus recycled, corrupted, and distorted by exotericism.

---

You fail to realize that SATAN was present at the time when God discussed the creation of man.

If you were SATAN and were to fool the masses you would want a COUNTERFEIT way to discredit the authenticity of the Gospel and Christ's message. You would create many, many paths that all seem to be the same below the surface. Come on your smarter than that are you not? Do you think the Devil would be that obvious?

The sumerian, indian, etc cultures were DEMONICALLY INFLUENCED CULTURES USED BY THE DEVIL IN ORDER TO DECEIVE THE ELECT. THEY WERE USED TO PROMOTE FALSE IDEAS AND LOOK THE "SAME" AS CHRISTIANITY. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BEING THAT JESUS CHRIST EMPOWERS ONLY ONE CHURCH AND PEOPLE AND THAT IS THE CHOSEN OF GOD.

You can beleive what you want but just remember that snakes are crafty and intelligent but in the end they will bite you!!!

Allanon

You give satan too much credit if he even exists why in the world would God give him the power to do all of this?  You keep on stating your own narrow beleifs as fact while ignoring questions and points from others which takes away the point of a debate with this "I'm right and your wrong attitude". You have nothing to support any of these claims and fanactical bible thumping not even the bible backs up these views.  You don't only lack evidence of all this you lack a remotely good argument to support what you are saying unless if you can come up with some.

Please stop unless if you can come up with evidence or if your ready to actually debate with some valid arguments instead of just posting your opinion as fact.

yes, because it is pretty annoying...

Please take some vaccations, you could go to travel for example...

...why not to visit a satanic cultured country ? [:D]

quote:

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The sumerian, indian, etc cultures were DEMONICALLY INFLUENCED CULTURES USED BY THE DEVIL IN ORDER TO DECEIVE THE ELECT.

---

I'll never again take another thing Allanon says seriously. Sumeria is God as far as I'm concerned. They were lucky people. [8D]

Allanon is not serious, he just needs go visit a good psychiatrist...
I will ignore his posts for now, i have enough of this and he made me loose enough of my time...
Bye bye satanic preacher [:D]

wow, what strong words.  I respect opions very much, but I must say that OBE is not a work of "satan".  Furhtermore, why do you bother converting others to your beliefs?  I am christian, yes of course.  I believe in Jesus and God, and the holy spirit, spirit being our AP selfs...  Please hear me out, don't bash my thoughts because you were taught to.  Respect my opions and statements, and i will respect yours.

Peace-

-Tenacious[:P]

[}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)]allanon, this debate (which is spreading through several topics already!) is getting exceedingly pointless.  there is no point in arguing with you if you only see and hear what you want to see and hear.  if you cannot give some other support for your claims beyond thumping your bible, then you best JUST LEAVE US ALONE ALREADY!!!!  you obviously won't even consider or think about anything we say with any kind of effort, and like i said, we're all a stubborn lot with that serious problem of thinking for ourselves. so if you want to feel good about yourself and reach some conversion quota you've set for yourself, you should just go somewhere where everyone's a lot more malleable.  talk to us when you are ready to give us a good debate, with good, logical thinking.  here you are just kicking around (according to you) a bunch of dead corpses[xx(] that will never reach heaven.  let us rot in our beloved hell... we're happy here.  you know why?  because we're all demonspawn... we're satan's servants in disguise as human beings.  heck, how do you know we're even humans?  we could just be electronic fictional personalities that satan is creating to spread his evil teachings![:O][;)][:o)][:P][:D][}:)][}:)][}:)]  mwahahahaha[}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][8D]

quote:

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Originally posted by curiousgirl
[brwe're satan's servants in disguise as human beings.  [:O][;)][:o)][:P][:D][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)]  mwahahahaha[}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][8D]

---

shhhhtt ! It was a secret ! [}:)]

Satanicely your

[;)]

Why must I HAVE to go to hell? Its too hot there![8)]

[}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)]

Thats a nice touch [;)]

ps:i think satan gave me heartburn[:(]

*Stretches his arms and gets to work*
Allanon, isn't it true that Astral Projection happens in the bible?
2nd Corinthians 12:1 thru 4
God caused this to happen to Paul himself... So wouldn't this be of god?

that's it, man of jade! [8D]  perhaps that's what we need... some arguments from the bible itself... he's obviously not going to listen to any kind of other reasoning... if it's the bible he wants, then so be it, eh?  the bible's the only thing he'll listen to.  unfortunately, i won't be able to contribute anything to that kind of debate. [:I]

Here is some more from the bible relating to ap.

"Then the spirit lifted me up and I heard behind me the noise of the Lord rumbling as the glory of the Lord rose from its place." - Ezekiel 3:12

The rumbling noise is a very common exit sensation with projections.

"Remember him, before the silver cord is severed ... and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." (Eccl. 12:6-7)2

The silver cord is considered by some to be what connects your astral body.

Acts 10:10-11 -- He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners.

Projectors leave their bodies from a trance like this guy did in the bible.  

Corinthians 12:2-4 -- I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-- was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

Also here is biblical support for NDEs.  
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen02.html

It is True that the Bible has AP experiences. But the reasons for these experiences coincide with the Truth that is found in Christ. If you look further especially in the case of Paul you will see that the purpose of these visions was to validate the Truth of the Gospel and of the power of God. Here on the board most AP without any knowledge of the power of what they are getting into or that the Devil has a say in things as well. If you do not belong to Christ you belong to Satan. When you AP you are in danger of attack from evil spirits. I invite you to read the following passage as it partains to the supremacy of Christ.

quote:

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15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[6] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

---

Obtain your salvation from the cross and then worry about walking in "dreamland".

Tisha, thank you SO much for your input in this forum.  You have said what is in my heart.

To quote you:
"Ye shall be known by your fruits. The effective christian evangelist, the one who truly GETS Jesus, has a loving glow that can be felt even across the Internet. He/she is kind, does the right thing, and gives loving advice in a loving way. People think, "I want to be peaceful and loving and happy and right with God, how did he/she get that way?" And then they ask questions, and the evangelist responds with his/her story. This is how it's done."

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE!  I hope I come off like this, truly.  I mean, I am a Christian but I sincerely hold no judgement for anyone and I realize...well, I realize the TRUTH and it has "set me free."
You also wrote:
"The rest of you . . . Jesus is alive and well and happy to let you get to Know him if that's what you want. You don't need to be threatened into conversion, in order to Know This. Therefore, I suggest everyone treat online religious threats the way you'd react to any street-corner evangelist . . . give him a wide berth, and keep on walking."

I think you have done more to help others understand the truth of Christ here than our poor friend Allanon.  I think he means well, and I agree with his fundemental message, but it's his delivery[:(].

Anyway, I am going to try to avoid this thread for it's somewhat heartbreaking to me to read what Allanon says and some of the horrible, blasphemous things people are saying about my best friend, Christ.

Daniel

quote:

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See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[1] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

---

I suppose my next question is this?

How does AP ing save your soul?

quote:

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I think you have done more to help others understand the truth of Christ here than our poor friend Allanon. I think he means well, and I agree with his fundemental message, but it's his delivery.

---

I guess you have to ask yourself if a lovey dovey approach is going to get through to those that allow themselves to be deceived. When Jesus saw the abominations going on in His Fathers house He threw down tables and caused a scene. Sometimes it takes a punch in the face to realize the Truth. It did with me as I sounded just like the others here on the board.

If I am so totally wrong on the nature of Christ than why have there been over 60 replies in one day?

Hello Allanon,

A diplomatic approach is far more effective than a forceful one.  A forceful approach will put people on guard, and they are not as likely to take you seriously.  As for the Bible, question if you truly understand it.  How can you blindly believe and say, "I know, because the Bible told me so."  That is like if I sat down all my life and never learned how to walk because, "People already told me what walking is like.  I don't need to experience it."  You know as well as I do what effect your messages have been having and will continue to have.  Belief is not knowledge.  Belief is belief.

I also noticed that you have been bringing up Satan and the Devil repeatedly, as well as the Anti-Christ.  Look at humanity!  Each one of us is the Anti-Christ, for so many of us are against Christ, are we not?  Perhaps not in our minds, but in our hearts.  Allanon, instead of looking on the outside you should begin looking inward, at your own reactions, your thoughts, your feelings.  Are they really that much better?  There are devils within us all...they are called anger, pride, gluttony, etc.

"The exterior is a reflection of the interior." Samael Aun Weor

And please, before you start bashing Samael as a worker for the devil, please learn about him, please read his books, and you will see that he references to Christianity a great deal, as well as several Eastern religious sciences.  He was a great person as well; he once gave his shirt to a beggar without thinking twice and when his son's car got stolen, he gave him his enthusiastically.

You aren't going to get anywhere spiritually just sitting around and believing.  You have two options:

1) Investigate and experience.
2) Sit around believing and see where you wind up when you die, if you are even conscious enough to notice that you're dead as there is no tomorrow for the personality of the deceased.

There is nothing wrong with beliefs or faith, but do not let them control your life.  If observing internally and noticing how negative we are is a tool of the devil, then God hath no mercy.

Please be more rational, Allanon.  I know that you are entirely capable of it.

Kevin

Allanon, can you tell us your story ? Maybe that could help us to understand you more ...?

Please consider that all those bad things that have been said about Jesus are reactions of wich YOU are totally responsible now.

Hell is made with good intentions

uh.. i hope i haven't said anything bad about jesus... i don't recall if i might have gotten worked up and said something... i have respect for him and try to avoid badmouthing him because i know it's not his fault that his followers are so warped.  if i've said anything against him, i apologize for it.  anyway:

_{quote: It did with me as I sounded just like the others here on the board.}

yes, i agree with la foret mauve... you should tell us about your own experiences... this should be fascinating, to know your background, and what made you.... so zealous.

I suggest everyone to read Tisha`s thread on this forum "How to undo the damage" (it is a sticky actually) - i think you will all gain a little more information about what you are all doing :)

So.. go ahead.. Read Tisha`s post and then come back here and post..

Just a thought,
Mike

To anyone who has said anything offensive regarding Jesus:

First of all, please read the last post I made in this thread.

Second, I don't agree with Allanon's approach.

Thirdly, I am a Christian and I find it very sad that some of you have said very negative and duragatory things about my Savior.  I don't trash you, your family, your friends, your beliefs.

Getting suckered into saying those things really just shows how easy someone like Allanon gets under your skin.

And finally, I am not going to hold anything against anyone, but I just ask for respect and tolerance.  Right from the beginning (look at my FIRST post in this thread) I told people to avoid getting sucked into this...

Respectfully,

-DT

Allanon.. 60 posts in one day it`s not your credit.. it is ours..

You should be thankfull you are not ignored.. not saying that you are right because there have been 60 posts in one day :)

Well.. - i see the waters are calm now (maybe they are all reading Tisha`s post - good) :)

And Allanon you didn`t answear my first question ? Why is that ?
I wasn`t trying to prove you anything - i just asked you - but you are more interested in this forums war than into helping me understand - that is nevertheless suspicous..

That being said I`ll leave you to read again Tisha`s post,
Mike

Ahaha.. Allanon, I reply to you because it's so easy and entertaining and I'm always curious as to what sort of stupid thing you'll say next. I mean, I've dealt with christians who put up a good argument before, but you're just plain hilarious. In a very pathetic, childish, and obviously misunderstanding way.

You're quite clearly a troll on this board, and if I didn't find your babble entertaining and a nice boost to my beliefs I probably would suggest you be banned. But for now I'd rather like to see you stay (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allanon

QuoteThe sumerian, indian, etc cultures were DEMONICALLY INFLUENCED CULTURES USED BY THE DEVIL IN ORDER TO DECEIVE THE ELECT. THEY WERE USED TO PROMOTE FALSE IDEAS AND LOOK THE "SAME" AS CHRISTIANITY. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BEING THAT JESUS CHRIST EMPOWERS ONLY ONE CHURCH AND PEOPLE AND THAT IS THE CHOSEN OF GOD.

---

Holy crap dude. These cultures do not "look" the same as christianity (and rightfully so, they came long before it). What I just said was that your christianity originated from what you're calling demonically influenced religions! Either you're not very good at logic or.. you're just plain stupid, but you just said that your religion was demonically influenced.
And Jesus empowers a lot more than one church, look up all the sects and divisions in Christianity. And all think they're Jesus' elect. So now what, more picking and choosing? Poor fool.

Greetings PeacefulWarrior,

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeacefulWarrior

To anyone who has said anything offensive regarding Jesus:

First of all, please read the last post I made in this thread.

Second, I don't agree with Allanon's approach.

Thirdly, I am a Christian and I find it very sad that some of you have said very negative and duragatory things about my Savior.  I don't trash you, your family, your friends, your beliefs.

Getting suckered into saying those things really just shows how easy someone like Allanon gets under your skin.

And finally, I am not going to hold anything against anyone, but I just ask for respect and tolerance.  Right from the beginning (look at my FIRST post in this thread) I told people to avoid getting sucked into this...

---

I think it is most important for everyone to realise there is a vast difference between Jesus the person, the Ascended Master, and his true mission on Earth, and the creed, dogma and distortions which followed due to the actions of mankind. The original words simply do not exist except, as Robert says, as thumbnail scraps of parchement. the bible was, for the most part written by man to justify and support the needs of the orthodox doctrines of the churches and their need to control people. Jesus (Joshua) the man, the Spiritual leader of the time intended none of this, and is almost certainly extremely dismayed to witness what has occured over the centuries in his name including much bloodshed and suffering; everything he was trying to turn around.

People can accept Jesus as a saviour if they so desire without the creed, dogma and doctrine of the church and their book.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Have any of you expert AP'ers ever talked with a Shaman from the rainforest and experienced the vine of the dead?

Christianity is the One True Religon and all others are counterfeits.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allanon

Have any of you expert AP'ers ever talked with a Shaman from the rainforest and experienced the vine of the dead?

Christianity is the One True Religon and all others are counterfeits.

---

Allanon,

At first I thought you were honestly well intentioned in your posts...trying to help people according to your belief system.  Now it honestly seems like you have degenerated into just being another Troll looking to provoke people and arguments.

I'm sorry it has come to this, but I do not wish to keep trying to have discussions with you.  Good bye.

--Soulfire

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allanon

Christianity is the One True Religon and all others are counterfeits.

---

Christianity is just a sad ripoff of truth at the hands of the profane, end of story. Everything points to that as the real truth.

I just cant believe that the bible remained unchanged for thousands of years, while everything else on the earth changed. Its just not possible for something to retain its message after 2,000 years of politicians..[:(]

quote:

---

I just cant believe that the bible remained unchanged for thousands of years, while everything else on the earth changed. Its just not possible for something to retain its message after 2,000 years of politicians..

---

All things are possible with God.

OK, OK, I don't want anyone here to have hurt feelings so lets just call it a day and enjoy this link!!!

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/gijoe.html

excuse me while I interject on page 5[8)]

first off, based on allanons origional post,you don't just 'let go of your mind'.you grasp it, and it's GOD-GIVEN potential.

the ones who are 'just letting go' of their minds are people who just blindy stumble through life w/no sense of who they really are,who 'let go' via smoking/alcohol/drugs,or just an aimless life.

remember that we were born into a state of grace.we were/are not/never were, separated from divinity.it hides within us, waiting for us to search for it.

modern christianity hides behind a book whose meaning has been so distorted by those seeking POWER OVER OTHERS,that they automatically activate the inner judge,who,of course,finds everyone guilty except 'them'.

whoops! page 6 now!

wow!

The Bible is the Word of God and all we have to go by.

One last question... Were exactly in the bible does it say that Astral Projection is evil if supposedly God created that in the first place, since he apparently created everything?

quote:

---

If I am so totally wrong on the nature of Christ than why have there been over 60 replies in one day?

---

Unfortunately, negative things usually draw people more quickly than positive things do. Not many people here enjoy Bible-thumping preaching, ESPECIALLY when the person preaching has no idea what they're talking about except the bs the church has been saying. "Jesus is Messiah.. He died for you.. Don't question God.. Don't even think.. Thinking = bad."

Now if you had come in hear with real evidence that a God exists, or that the pre-Christian Bible was wrong and the Messiah didn't have to any of the things it listed, there wouldn't be many replies, because there wouldn't be much room to argue. But it would be nearly impossible to prove there is a God, so statements are manufactured to keep common sense and reason at bay. The church WANTS your blind faith, because many of the things they have said over the centuries have by now been scientifically proven wrong (ie: Earth is the center of the universe), and they've grown to dislike the thinking man.

What you're saying about AP doesn't make sense to me.. If you accept Christ, then AP'ing is the work of God, but otherwise Satan gets credit. These are the kinds of things that annoy me. These are statements that don't need proof because of the way they were manufactured (blind faith), and because they're hardly an explanation for anything (more like a threat or something to scare you into Christianity), you're ideally not supposed to think too deeply on them.

quote:

---

Posted - 23 August 2003 : 20:41:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bible is the Word of God and all we have to go by.

---

Prove it. You just have your faith. And faith is no proof at all. Just because its written it does not mean its true. Ask anyone working in The New York Times.

"The bible is the word of God, because it says so in the bible."

Is that your argument?

Or is it because of its self-fulfilling prophecies? War in the Middle East anyone?

quote:

---

"The bible is the word of God, because it says so in the bible."

Is that your argument?

Or is it because of its self-fulfilling prophecies? War in the Middle East anyone?

---

The Bible is verifyable for those of no faith by its Prophecies and Eye Witness testimonies as well as Historical Evidence.

AP experience is not evil par se. It is the fruit of the AP that counts. If from your AP experiences you beleive that you do not NEED the blood of Christ for eternal life than those experiences are coming from false spirits.

If you AP and realize the Truth that is in Christ than I see no problem there. Test the spirits if they are of God as Paul tells us to do.

There is no God but Allah, and Muhammed is his prophet.

quote:

---

we were born into a state of grace

---

Actually we were born into a fallen nature. We must accept grace first.

Praise to God for a Living Hope

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Allanon "The Bible is the Word of God and all we have to go by."

You have a book. I have experience. My knowledge is direct therefore higher quality.

I hope Allanon remembers the good things of Christianity after he deconverts.

I think someone needs to hit Allanon...very very hard.

I think we should all stop posting here and just ignore whatever preaching he does in the future. This could go on forever. He just doesn't get that we don't want to be preached to.

PS.. To the message below this one, in order to prevent myself from posting on this topic again.. (Is this the first time anyone has replied to a post from above the post being replied to? o.O):

LMAO!

He posted a GI Joe link. You sure this isn't someone's idea of a bad joke -_-

If so, it was hook line and sinker.

" 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes. [1]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn. 21 Distressed and hungry, they will roam through the land; when they are famished, they will become enraged and, looking upward, will curse their king and their God. 22 Then they will look toward the earth and see only distress and darkness and fearful gloom, and they will be thrust into utter darkness.

G'day Folks!

The only thing that supports the bible is the bible. I say again:  there is no historical evidence to support the new testament.


RB.

Faith in something unseen is one thing. Faithfully following something blindly without ever testing it objectively is completely another, and will lead to error.

Faith in the bible with out questioning is blind faith. Following the bible because someone told you to is also blind faith. This is true for any religious text.

The texts of the new testement cannot be proven, in any truely clear objective way. There are no external references that can corroborate anything written in the new testement at all. That is the fact, that is the truth.

If someone wishes to heed the words of the bible, then it is for them to decide for themselves if the words of the bible are of value to them spiritually, or for their general way of life.

I'm not going to tell you "don't read the bible its all a pack of lies". Its your choice. You're entitled to believe what you will. Just as it is the choice of other people to choose not to read the bible if .

Seek wisdom from the Lord Allanon. Forcefull preaching as you are doing, with no evident thought or respect for those you are preaching to will only produce a negative effect. Surely you must be seeing this by now.

This site is made up of thinking people....not sheep. The members here will not blindly follow someone just because they have stated "this is the truth."

James.

Robert, I see you what you are saying and you are right, but why are you saying this?  If you have seen what I have written in response to Allanon, you will see that i disagree with a lot of what he is saying and especially how he is saying it, but I too believe in Christ and I don't really care about "historical evidence."  If I loooked to historical evidence to support all of the things I believe in, including the OBE phenomena then I wouldn't believe in anything.  

I have read most everything you have written and have corresponded with you privately and have never seen any hint of anti-Christian sentiment, but it seems like you are trying to shut down belief in the New Testament, which for me is a valid document.

Could you clarify please?

Best,
Dan

Here is a little something I picked up on the net, nothing extraordinary:
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Is There Historical Evidence for the New Testament?

The following is a brief excerpt from a larger book.
For a fuller treatment of this subject as well as a better context, see:
I'd Like To Believe In Jesus, But...
(The harder, less frequently discussed questions)
By Bob Siegel
Published by Campus Ambassador Press
A ministry of Mission To the Americas
Wheaton, Illinois
Copyright ‹1999 by Bob Siegel
This article is not be be reporduced without written permission from the author.
All Rights Reserved

In my dialogues with university students, objections to the Bible are very common and very similar: "We can't use the Bible to defend the resurrection," they tell me. "That's too internal. You are using one book to verify itself. Besides, the disciples of Jesus were extremely biased. They loved Him. They believed in Him. We can't trust them to give an objective report."

Part of our problem with the Bible in discussions like these is the pre-conceived image people have of the Bible. Frankly, Christians contribute much to this image. When people look at this special book, leather bound, with gold plated pages and a personal name engraved on the cover, it seems like something so mystical, so spiritual and so subjective, that it cannot possibly have anything to do with history or any other objective discipline for that matter. Our claim that it is the Word of God doesn't help much either. It may be a true claim, but the phrase "Word of God" evokes different meanings in different minds. Some take the description to mean that God practically dropped it out of Heaven, wrapped in a white box with a blue ribbon. This, of course, is not what the New Testament writers claimed. Instead, they claimed to have written it themselves while inspired by God's Spirit (John 14:25-26, 2 Tim 3:16). Whether or not one chooses to believe that the history surrounding Jesus was given with inspiration, the fact remains that it is history and must be studied as history.

We should also keep in mind that the Bible is not one book but actually a collection of 66 different manuscripts, penned by 40 different authors over a period of some 2,000 years. Although several of the books were written in a poetical style, many of the books claim to be actual history and can be corroborated by other ancient documents and archaeology.

The New Testament itself (our primary focus if we are discussing the resurrection), is a collection of 27 different documents. Two of the four Gospels were penned by actual disciples of Jesus, Matthew and John, and both of these men claimed to be eyewitnesses for the resurrection.

Notice John's words from a letter that he wrote subsequently to his Gospel:

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared, we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us ( I John 1:1-3).

Nothing in this wording even remotely suggests that John is inviting his readers to take a blind leap of faith. Instead, he talks as though the facts are out there for anyone who wants them verified. And he himself follows Jesus because of what he has personally witnessed, not because he was taught to follow Jesus in Sunday School.

Another Gospel writer, Mark, was a companion of Peter who penned Peter's version of Christ's ministry supplying us with a third eyewitness source. This was a common practice in those days: A man, not very literate, would employ the help of an assistant commonly called amanuensis. Nevertheless, when we read Mark, we are really reading the testimony of Peter.1

Were the disciple's of Jesus biased? Of course they were. But are we to assume from this that their record is unreliable simply because they liked and believed the man they were writing about? I find such logic very questionable: "Show me an eyewitness or a historian who accepts the life and resurrection of Jesus as actual fact, but the men who knew Him, followed Him, lived with Him, listened to Him, studied with Him; none of them count." Really now. I doubt that such a standard would be placed upon any other figure of history.

The noted New Testament scholar F.F. Bruce, (Professor of Biblical Criticism and Exegesis at the University of Manchester, England), once discussed an interesting analogy to this whole subject of bias:

Nor would any historian ignore Sir Winston Churchill's The Second World War or Mr. Harold Wilson's 'personal record' of The Labor Government, 1964-1970 on the ground that the author occupied the position of Prime Minister during the periods covered respectively by these works and would therefore present biased accounts ( F.F. Bruce, Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament William B. Erdmans's Publishing Company, Grand Rapids Michigan, 1977, p.15).

Think about it. Who honestly believes that Winston Churchill held a view of World War Two free from personal bias? But the follow up question is just as important: Would any historian in his right mind be uninterested in a book about World War Two written by Winston Churchill?

Yes, the disciples were biased, but no more so than anyone else who writes history. In the case of Jesus, we also have records that demonstrate the biases of those who did not follow Him. This is an important point to note for now and return to later.

First, let us wind down our discussion of the New Testament attestation by taking a brief look at the author of the remaining Gospel, Luke. Although he was not an original disciple himself, he wrote as a historian and interviewed many eyewitnesses to the life of Christ. Observe his words:

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, oh most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught (Luke l:1-4).

Theophilus' identity is uncertain, but he seems to have been a Roman dignitary of some kind who sponsored an investigation into the matters at hand by a man reputed as being a factual historian. It is difficult for people to think of Luke as a historian but only because they are used to thinking of him as a part of the Bible, and the Bible (as mentioned above) is approached with the unfair image of being "just a religious document."

But Luke did write as an accurate historian. This has been verified by many scholars, including Sir William Ramsey, one of the most famous archaeologists who has ever lived. Educated in the German Tubingen School in the late 1900's, where the Bible was torn apart according to popular (and extremely subjective) theories, Ramsey originally took it for granted that the Gospel of Luke was untrustworthy. This all changed when his journeys to the Grecian-Roman world and subsequent archaeological digs began to verify fact after fact as reported in the third Gospel and Acts (also penned by Luke).

One alleged Lucan error was his statement that Lystra and Derbe were in the region of Lycaonia and Iconium was not (Acts 14:1-21). This contradicts Roman writers like Cicero, who said that Iconium was in Lycaonia. But in 1919 Ramsey found a monument that proved Iconium was a Phrygian city, not a Lyconian city.2

A more serious controversy involves Luke's date of the Roman census. This census, conducted under the Syrian Governor, Quirinius, took place in 6 AD, according to the ancient historian Josephus (Antiquities 18, I. I.). But Luke associates the census with the time of Christ's birth (Luke 2:1) which, according to Matthew, took place during the reign of Herod the Great (Matt. 2). We know Herod was dead after 4 AD. We would seem then to have a fairly major contradiction. But in 1912 Ramsey discovered an inscription in Antioch stating that Quirinius had been governor twice. Although it is not mentioned where, this dual governorship could easily have been in Syria. Since we know he ruled as governor of Syria once, that is the likely location for his earlier term and the location Ramsey argued for.3

These are just two of the many ways Ramsey was continually impressed. He went on to write:

Luke is a historian of the first rank. Not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy, this author should be placed along with the greatest of historians (William, Ramsey, The Bearing of Recent Discoveries On The Trustworthiness of The New Testament p. 222).

Footnotes:

1) See the writings of the church Fathers Iranaeus (end of second century, Adversus Haereses III.I.i in Eusebius H.E. V. 8), and Papias (130), (Expositions of the Oracles of Our Lord, in Eusebius H.E.III. 39).

2) Joseph Free, Archaeology and Bible History, ( Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1992) p. 271.

3) William, Ramsey, The Bearing of Recent Discoveries On The Trustworthiness of The New Testament, pp. 275 ff.

yes, you have a point, peaceful warrior.  there are plenty of people who believe in what the bible says, regardless of lack of historical proof (and even with proof that things could be wrong), but do not have such extreme, eerrr... ah, i can't think of a good word to describe it... psycho-fervor of hate-filled condemnation that this allanon person has.  you can believe in everything that the bible says, without believing that everyone is going to the pits of hell for not believing in it, too.  and you can believe in it without forcing it down everyone else's throat.  and you can believe in it and still respect other's beliefs, too (which i'm sure is what jesus wants us to do... respect and love each other despite differences).  perhaps allanon's case is one of extreme difference of interpretation of the bible, and perhaps some hardcore brainwashing to boot.  either that, or allanon's playing a prank on us all.

oh, i'm not saying that everything in the bible has been proven wrong... i know that there have been some things found that seem to confirm events in the bible... but then at the same time, there are things that people find that go against it.  but either way, i was just trying to state that people have faith in the bible regardless of whether it is proven right or wrong, and i have no problem with that.  i'm saying it seems that someone's faith in the bible is not what is creating all this hubbub, because while peaceful warrior has faith in the bible regardless of lack of proof (and regardless of proof for or against it), he is not the same as allanon, who also has faith in the bible.  they both have faith in it, but their approaches to it and the people they come across are completely different.  peaceful warrior does not preach at us, tell us we are gonna burn in hell, and seems to accept all our various beliefs and stuff.  allanon, on the other hand is completely different, as you can see.  so i am saying that the problem here is not the faith in the bible.  but maybe it is how he is interpreting it.

Dan,
That was an intelligent post and an interesting read.
(I always considered Luke's account to be the most objective)

I too remember from my days in church that the historical accuracy of the bible was frequently brought into question by the scientific / archeological / historical communities.

Indeed you're right, that the validity of the christian belief should not be hinged on the historical accuracy of the bible. It just seems unfortunate that there are many christians who view the bible as the one and only true source of accurate spiritual literature in existence. This and the fact that many varying interpretations of the bible have lead to many different doctrines and dogmas, with a number of conflicts having risen within the worldwide christian community as a result.

Isn't it interesting though that despite the many criticisms and cases against the bible, most people here are accepting of the great wisdom and wonderful insight given to the world by Jesus. His words still seem to ring true in people's minds and hearts despite the feelings towards the rest of the bible. Maybey if more christians were to focus and, dare I say it, *meditate* on His words ( meditating on the word of God is actually scriptural [;)])rather than bully people with rules and absolutes, we wouldn't see such conflicts as have arisen in this thread.

Kind regards,
James.

singing  "My god's better than your god. My god's better than yours....."


This is how wars start...

Everyone take a good look at what is going on here....please.  Then simply allow your intellect to take over and this can all go away.

Satan has the power to deceive. Even with your so called "historical" evidence. The Bible is True and you can take it or leave it. But the fact remains that it is the ONLY God inspired book.

What about the Kabala o wise one?

Allanon,
If you really want to save some souls I would suggest you visit www.mysticweb.org. they would surely welcome you with open hearts.

quote:

---

yes, you have a point, peaceful warrior. there are plenty of people who believe in what the bible says, regardless of lack of historical proof (and even with proof that things could be wrong), but do not have such extreme, eerrr... ah, i can't think of a good word to describe it... psycho-fervor of hate-filled condemnation that this allanon person has. you can believe in everything that the bible says, without believing that everyone is going to the pits of hell for not believing in it, too. and you can believe in it without forcing it down everyone else's throat. and you can believe in it and still respect other's beliefs, too (which i'm sure is what jesus wants us to do... respect and love each other despite differences). perhaps allanon's case is one of extreme difference of interpretation of the bible, and perhaps some hardcore brainwashing to boot. either that, or allanon's playing a prank on us all.

---

I DO NOT hate any of you. WE ARE ALL EQUALS IN THAT WE HAVE A FALLEN NATURE AND ARE SLAVES TO SIN. God has a Way, One Way that is the True religon and it is found in Hid Word and in His Son.

I pray that the Light will shine into your hearts today and you put away your idols and self worship and give Praise to the pot maker not the pot.

Jesus Loves you and I have a sincere desire to help those that search for the Spring of Eternal Life. I Love all of you in Christ and Hope that you realize the illusions that the sinful mind can create. If you continue in your wicked ways than your mind will be intoxicated with the sting of disbeleif.

I mean no offense to any of you BUT GOD'S WAY IS GOD'S WAY NO MATTER WHAT THE WORLD TELLS YOU.

Greetings PeacefulWarrior,

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeacefulWarrior

Robert, I see you what you are saying and you are right, but why are you saying this?  If you have seen what I have written in response to Allanon, you will see that i disagree with a lot of what he is saying and especially how he is saying it, but I too believe in Christ and I don't really care about "historical evidence."  If I loooked to historical evidence to support all of the things I believe in, including the OBE phenomena then I wouldn't believe in anything.  

I have read most everything you have written and have corresponded with you privately and have never seen any hint of anti-Christian sentiment, but it seems like you are trying to shut down belief in the New Testament, which for me is a valid document.

Could you clarify please?

---

I don't speak for Robert and I understand and respect your concerns, but I can only reiterate what I said before.

No one I am sure, and certainly not I doubt the existence of Jesus (Joshua), and his mission to save mankind. But saving mankind does not mean the things put together by people in the bible, but rather he was and is a very high Spiritual leader, an Ascended Master, who came to teach Spiritual truths to a band of people who would themselves become teachers.

However, as Robert said: The only thing that supports the bible is the bible. I say again: there is no historical evidence to support the new testament

And he is absolutely correct in this. The bible does not exist except as the work of man over the millennia, constructed almost as a political tool to control the masses. It is a human construct. People who are vociferously trying to ram the doctrines of the church down peoples throats are therefore stuck in a circular argument because their entire belief is based upon a book which seeks to justify itself, and which book, again, is a human construct, not that of God.

People can experience OBE and Astral projection and visit the Astral realms which requires no faith at all, it is a truism. People on the other hand have no way of verifying any of the bible exists at all.

I do not believe Robert is questioning peoples faith or the right to hold a faith, any faith, but he is rather making the distinction between faith and truth. Believing in the bible is faith not truth.

I hope I explained that alright, because as you know I have much respect for your own faith, and do recognise the LDS church have many beliefs which are very much Spiritually based.

To understand Robert's own position, I would highly recommend his article "The Catch Basket Concept":

http://www.astralpulse.com/articles/robert/articles_44.htm

With best regards,

Adrian.

Allanon this has to stop I don't know what your looking for but as you can see nobody is buying into your bible thumping.  I think we all get the point about what your saying but your only posting your own personal beliefs with any evidence or supporting arguments and expecting everyone to take it as fact but that is not debating.  What you are preaching is blind faith and it's easy to make claims like this but coming up with good arguments for the claims and proof is another story.  You are only lowering my opinion about Christianity with ignorance and intolerance like this.  Please stop unless if you have something intelligent to say because this is going nowhere and getting repetitive so I'm done responding to you unless if you can come up with something intelligent.

Greetings Allanon,

I have to advise you that unless you can support your position with evidence and reasoned discussion, I will lock this thread, and no similar thread started by you will be allowed.

You are pursuing this line of intransigent preaching in multiple forums, and we have all been very patient. But no more please.

With best regards,

Adrian.

"support your position with evidence"

Dont forget that the bible is dogma, not evidence.

Don`t lower yourself Adrian to his level and block him or something.. becuase he eventually has to get bored because if he continue like this he will be ignored by mostly all the folks here...

But deleting posts and threads is something which suits mysticwebB not our forum..

He is just happy to see how much replies he got i think.. and will still try in my opinion to get some more.. but i say we should ignore him if he doesn`t begin to make some sense here.. and use logic in his posts..

Mike

James and Adrian:
Thank you for your kind and intelligent words.  ...and thanks for the clarification Adrian.  I understand exactly what you mean.

Well, I think I've spent about as much time in this thread as I can bear...[xx(]  

-Dan

Like I said 6 pages ago, Allanon, You're being judgemental.

I recently finished a two year study of the bible. I accept it as the word of God. We found many inconsistancies in translation of words which could affect interpretation. Also I'm convinced there is information that has been left out by those wanting to serve their own purpose. To say that the above did not happen is to say the holocaust didn't happen. There are too many crossreferences between many of the books to say that the book has no merit. The bible is not an easy book to understand, people spend their whole life trying. To dismiss it as fiction, to me, is ludicrous. No one even mentioned the most obvious (to me) example of OBE/AP was John's vision of Christ's revelation in the book of Revelation. He was truly having an astral experience. Does God not want us to AP? He gave us free will, we could do it for bad if we choose or we can use it for good (loving, helping and taking care of others).
Remember the ten commandments in everything you do.

maybe allanon  is  doing all this delberatly  to see how our "new age thinking"  responds to  ignorance and arrogance.

  When  we  get angry and argue with allanon,   we  show  that  our  beleif systems havent  taught  us  to  control  our anger,  or  tolerate those  we think  have  the wrong idea.

but if  he is genuine then i suppose  this  entire thread would be a test,  to  see how  new age thinking  deals with old age thinking.  I for one  beleive that the  kind of knowledge on this board and the general ethos of honesty, truth, growth etc.. is  going to erupt into the world soon.    allanon  embodies  what new age  thinking  will be up against.    



some  of  the responses to allanon have been bitter and  counter productive,   and some of them have challenged him to think.
the former  isnt  what  new-age  thinking  should be.

and allanon,   you say all other religions are  from the devil...

if  a  jew  grows  up  to be a good, caring, honest, loving, loyal, decent, helpful member of society,  why should he go to hell?

if  god punishes  people for not being  xian,  then  why would anyone want to worship a god like that?

and  what  do  you mean  when  you say  "accept jesus" and the like, to me it doesnt make sense,  how does one accept jesus?

People are answering as individuals with individual beliefs.  Not representing any new age style of thinking.  I think the thread is fine and each person responds the way they chose to..

New age isnt a doctrine or a proper way of behaving.  Christianity is more based on that.. even though its more relaxed on some things.  Like judging everyone one else.. or acting a certain way whether you really believe it or not. Or show it when the priest isnt looking.

Allright maybe I will answer this couple of questions because they really got my itch goin again. I will be gentler this time.

quote:

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if a jew grows up to be a good, caring, honest, loving, loyal, decent, helpful member of society, why should he go to hell?

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Because he has failed to fulfill the whole Law. Jesus is the only One that fulfilled the whole Law.

quote:

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and what do you mean when you say "accept jesus" and the like, to me it doesnt make sense, how does one accept jesus?

---

You accept Jesus by HAVING FAITH IN JESUS AND HIS FINISHED WORK.

God is prefect and to be in His presence completely you have to fulfill the Law of God. As most here are New Agers there is that drive you adhere to which says "I will find God in my path, in my way, in my time". You see we can never find God fully again. Not from the way of the world that is. We are lost souls. Look to the mirror and tell me that you deserve to have the rewards of the Saints. None of us do and only by Jesus coming and fulfilling the Law through Grace are we allowed to finally have the peace and rest that we all want in life.

ONLY GOD CAN REPAY GOD.

pmlonline: Are you really on first name terms with Mr. Bruce?

Hello Everyone
Allanon is a name in the states for an organization that saves drug addicts and helps their families by using Christianity. It is a lot like Alchoholics Anonymus in that way.
They want to believe that Christ saved them and are people that believe in every word of the bible even though the different translations prove how much it has been changed. Try reading a Greek Orthodox bible it is a lot different than the King James version for example.
Now that said people who go through these things believe that everyone else has made terrible mistakes just like they have made. They go around trying to make up for their mistakes by shoving their beliefs down everyones throats. I have seen one tell my Mother she is not Christian when she is a deacon in a Presbyterian church.
I agree with Adrian everyone has been patient with you Allanon. Please go and reform the people around where you live and who you grew up with in your life. They are the ones who made you what you are and they are the ones who should be hearing these speeches.
You do not know what others believe or care about and should quit harassing them. Every person on this earth learns their own lessons and goes on their own Path. You have chosen your Path don't drive everyone else away from it by your preaching.
  Nita

Hello everyone

"You were made in the image and likeness of God"

We don't create God so us He can meet OUR needs. Just because we are revengeful and want to punish doesn't mean God is so.
God is supposed to be infinately loving and compassionate, how can he condemn anyone for anything?
I don't think God sits on a golden throne and goes around judging people. I do not believe God even expects from us anything! God has free will, he is a Creator, and because we were made "in the image and likeness of God" we have free will too and that's just what that is.
Why would God give us free will, and then punish us for anything? It's like saying you can do what you want but if you don't do what I want you will burn in Hell! This is just, wrong! God loves and accepts people because they Are, for that is unconditional love. If God has not unconditional love then noone does!

I am a born Christian, and i love and admire Jesus for what he REALLY was and did.  I am not really religious, and i never truly was, but for the first time i feel closer to God and that makes me happy. If this is wrong then so be it.


Malvina

quote:

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Hello Everyone
Allanon is a name in the states for an organization that saves drug addicts and helps their families by using Christianity. It is a lot like Alchoholics Anonymus in that way.
They want to believe that Christ saved them and are people that believe in every word of the bible even though the different translations prove how much it has been changed. Try reading a Greek Orthodox bible it is a lot different than the King James version for example.
Now that said people who go through these things believe that everyone else has made terrible mistakes just like they have made. They go around trying to make up for their mistakes by shoving their beliefs down everyones throats. I have seen one tell my Mother she is not Christian when she is a deacon in a Presbyterian church.
I agree with Adrian everyone has been patient with you Allanon. Please go and reform the people around where you live and who you grew up with in your life. They are the ones who made you what you are and they are the ones who should be hearing these speeches.
You do not know what others believe or care about and should quit harassing them. Every person on this earth learns their own lessons and goes on their own Path. You have chosen your Path don't drive everyone else away from it by your preaching.
Nita

---

I did not know that. It sounds like a GREAT organization though.

Jesus Is Coming

7 Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.
8
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.
9 But he said to me, Do not do it! I am a fellow- servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!
10 Then he told me, Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.
11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.
12
Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs, those who practise magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practises falsehood.
16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.
17
The Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, Yes, I am coming soon. Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

quote:

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11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.

---

Interesting you would use this line.  I was wondering how long it would take for you to supply us with the ammo.  Listen to the words you put down and leave us to our own devices and stop trying to save us.  If we had not already chosen our path, chosen that which we will be judged on, then maybe you would have a chance to save us.  Then again we also would not be here consorting with people of like mind.

Most of us are here to learn.  And nobody here, infact I argue that nobody on Earth, truely knows what is going to happen to them after they die.  I personally don't think about it anymore.  I no longer care.  I say this because no matter how much I search or question for that answer I will never be able to truely tell what is going to happen.  There is not a single person on the face of the Earth, not even you, that can tell me with out a doubt what my final fate will be.  Even if I was to follow "your book" to the letter there would be no garentee.  After all, even though the book was "inspired" by God it was written by a man, and only God knows my judgement.  

I find it funny how easily you pass judgement on to us, placing yours above that of God's.  You have no idea who we are, you do not know us at all.  You only know a few words written by a name, but you do not know the person behind the name.  So how can you be so vien in thinking that you are totally and 100% correct about the people you are judging?

I said it in another thread but I will say it here also.  It is not your place to judge us.  That my friend is God's job.  If we are to be judged and sentanced so forcably, then it will be God's doing.  And to, if we are to be saved then God will show us the way.  I know that you will respond with, "But God has shown you the way, and its in this book...blah, blah, blah."   But no, if God had shown me the way I would not be having this discussion with you.  What I mean is that God would have made it more apparrent that I needed to change, some thing more obvious.

However given previous corispondance I believe that this will fall on deaf ears and you will not understand the basics of what I mean.  But I am compelled to respond anyhow.

quote:

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nobody here, infact I argue that nobody on Earth, truely knows what is going to happen to them after they die.

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Look to God and His Word for the answer you seek.

quote:

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Now that said people who go through these things believe that everyone else has made terrible mistakes just like they have made. They go around trying to make up for their mistakes by shoving their beliefs down everyones throats. I have seen one tell my Mother she is not Christian when she is a deacon in a Presbyterian church.

---

Allanon was literally defined in that post.

We shouldn't have to constantly deal with posts like this, but yet we do, several times a day. I don't enjoy looking through topics and seeing massive amounts of preaching, and all coming from one person. I think it's well established that not many people here do. I've yet to read a post by anyone that agrees totally with what Allanon is doing. We shouldn't have to deal with this, yet there is nothing that we can do. It's that simple. We just have to wait for moderator or administrative action.

quote:

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We shouldn't have to constantly deal with posts like this, but yet we do, several times a day. I don't enjoy looking through topics and seeing massive amounts of preaching, and all coming from one person. I think it's well established that not many people here do. I've yet to read a post by anyone that agrees totally with what Allanon is doing. We shouldn't have to deal with this, yet there is nothing that we can do. It's that simple. We just have to wait for moderator or administrative action.

---

Ignore my statements of Truth or just visit one of the other hundreds of threads here on the board. You write against the Word because you want it to go away. Your inner child knows the Truth but the sins of the world cloud the mind from Grace.

Don't misinterpret my negative feelings towards your posting as success. If your words were that magical I would be Christian by now, trust me.

Dear Allanon,

If you were offering Christ's love I would support you.  But you are not offering Christ's love...for I do not see harmony around you.  You only offer YOUR WILL, FEAR, and quote after quote like a sword of truth. Love is not a sword it is a healer.  You hold nothing in your hand.  

Jesus the Christ spoke about love again and again and ego has no place in love. Your ego sins and you disgrace Christianity.

Hopefully, love will save you but based on what I have read in your previous posts it will not happen any time soon.

I have now spoken to you as you speak to others.  NOW do you see the ego in your foolish words. OR are you blind.

Do you not see that your attitude is precisely what starts religious wars.  Do you think God rejoices in war????  Love does not start wars.  Will and Ego start wars because they are the mother and father of hatred.  What ugly cheap substitutes you offer for LOVE.  

Dear Timeless.....In answer to this statement.....

quote:

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Do you not see that your attitude is precisely what starts religious wars. Do you think God rejoices in war???? Love does not start wars. Will and Ego start wars because they are the mother and father of hatred. What ugly cheap substitutes you offer for LOVE.

---

Raise a banner on a bare hilltop,
shout to them;
beckon to them
to enter the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded my holy ones;
I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath-
those who rejoice in my triumph.

4 Listen, a noise on the mountains,
like that of a great multitude!
Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms,
like nations massing together!
The LORD Almighty is mustering
an army for war.
5 They come from faraway lands,
from the ends of the heavens-
the LORD and the weapons of his wrath-
to destroy the whole country.

6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty. [1]
7 Because of this, all hands will go limp,
every man's heart will melt.
8 Terror will seize them,
pain and anguish will grip them;
they will writhe like a woman in labor.
They will look aghast at each other,
their faces aflame.

9 See, the day of the LORD is coming
-a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger-
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.
11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.

quote:

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Love is not a sword it is a healer. You hold nothing in your hand.

---

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
  " 'a man against his father,
      a daughter against her mother,
  a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
       36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[5]
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

"34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. "

Look at what this kind of attitude is doing in the Gaza strip!

The Christians and Muslims there aren't using swords anymore. They're using missiles, tanks, heavy artillery, explosives, you name it.

God protect us from religion!

James.

Yep, looks pretty bad when passages are used out of context of the message. God will punish his children for their disobedience like any parent should punish their child for disobedience. We correct our children out of love. It is man's pride (ego) that leads to disobedience and putting his will above God's. Love of anything or anyone more than God is disodedience. By the time Revelation speaks of, God has lost his patience with mankind.

Greetings Traveler,

quote:

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Originally posted by Traveler

Yep, looks pretty bad when passages are used out of context of the message. God will punish his children for their disobedience like any parent should punish their child for disobedience. We correct our children out of love. It is man's pride (ego) that leads to disobedience and putting his will above God's. Love of anything or anyone more than God is disodedience. By the time Revelation speaks of, God has lost his patience with mankind.

---

With respect, it is not appropriate to use words like "punish", "disobedience", "patience" etc.; these are all human attributes as if God was a deity personified; the one who is considered by many to be sitting on his throne in heaven surrounded by his choirs of Archangels.

God is the entire Universe, we are God and God is us, and everything functions according to Universal laws. Yes, people are punished for bad deeds, but not due to any conscious decision or intent, but rather by the workings of the law of cause and effect of which karma is an aspect. If the entire Universe did not function in this way, it would collapse into chaos in a moment.

The most powerful vibration in the Universe is Unconditional Love, a force which holds the Universe together, without which it could not exist. It is due to Unconditional Love all of the arguments of Allanon and his like are immediately rendered incorrect. It does not matter how evil a human being can be, that human being is still God with Divine essence at the innermost,and it is that essence which is also Unconditionally Loved just as we should all Unconditionally Love everyone and everything as Brothers and Sisters and Sons and Daughters of God, our Spirit being made in the image of God. Even the most evil people will one day return to God, for that is the destiny of all mankind, it is just they have chosen the left hand path, the way of the darkside rather than the way of the Light.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Thanks for that Adrian! As I write this it's the start of another workday, what a good start.  Those words ring true. [:)]

Very best,

quote:

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God is the entire Universe, we are God and God is us, and everything functions according to Universal laws

---

Pantiestic, Mystical jargon which originated from the mouth of the heretic Spinoza.

Greetings Allanon,

quote:

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Originally posted by Allanon

quote:

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God is the entire Universe, we are God and God is us, and everything functions according to Universal laws

---

Pantiestic, Mystical jargon which originated from the mouth of the heretic Spinoza.

---

You really should get your facts right and know your own bible before making statements such as this.  Almost every religion in the world accepts these facts as a truism, not to mention most other sources of anciant wisdom and the modern quantum sciences:

Is it not written in your law, "I have said, You are Gods?" --- John 10:34

On that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me and I in you. --- John 14:20

Christianity: The kingdom of heaven is within you

Islam: Those who know themselves know their God

Buddhism: Look within, thou art Buddah

Vedanta: Atman (individual consciousness) and Brahman (Universal consciousness) are one

Yoga: God dwells within you as you

Confucianism: Heaven, earth and human are of one body

Upanishads: By understanding the self, all this Universe is known


And I could go on. The last five pre-date christianity. Almost every religion, philosophy and esoteric ancient wisdom agrees with the nature of the Universe and how the destiny of mankind is aligned.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Adrian,
I was only commenting in reference to the bible in which Allanon is fond of quoting. I'm fairly new to the spirit world outside of mainstream religion and don't have much experience with the astral in general but I'm learning.[:)]

THE NEW AGE DECEPTION

What you imply with your quotes Adrian is one of a reality that is

Panthiestic
Materialistic
Determinist
Mystical

Christ is totally SEPERATE from this reality. If God choose to stop thinking about us we would be GONE. Poof end of story. We are a MODE not a SUBSTANCE. God is the only true SUBSTANCE and is TRANSCENDANT of this world. HE IS NOT PART OF IT. He will continue to exist WITHOUT is and we have no AFFECT on HIM. He however has an effect on us. He is in complete control. Your false understanding of the nature of God's Word can be summed up below.....

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's INVISIBLE QUALITIES--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and WORSHIPPED AND SERVED CREATED THINGS rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.


The statement "The World is God" is the NEW AGE DECEPTION.

interesting. . .
I am appauld by your comments, Alannon. The fact that you would come here and insult these people, some of whome ARE christian as I am. I realize that no matter what anyone says, you'll probably stick to your beliefs.
But i'm gonna say it anyways. And what you're doing is not what Jesus Christ intended. Whether you see it or not, you ARE pressuring your beliefs on others and not accepting any other explination.
Do you expect others like myself to feel like we're going to hell because of what God gave us? What about Joseph? Didn't he have visions, couldn't he interpret dreams? Or jesus himself who could heal the sick and walk on water?
Ironically, what you're calling the deception of satan is what brought me closer to God.
p.s. Meditation is taught in the bible. And 'he who is without sin casts the first stone' so, does that mean you yourself are completely without sin?
Don't be so quick to judge others.

I am not judging just stating the fact that THERE IS AN UNSEEN WAR GOING ON RIGHT NOW IN THE SPIRIT REALMS. THE TIME OF PERGATORY IS ABOUT TO CLOSE AND IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST THAN YOU WILL BE DECIEVED AND TORMENTED. FOR ALL THE CLAIMS OF "LEAVING THE BODY" I SEE HERE I DONT UNDERSTAND HOW YOU HAVE HAD NO VISIONS OF THE WAR?

Poor Allanon!  Sounds like all your time "out" is spent on the Lower Astral.  Certainly lots of crap is going on there . . . and as the lower astral is where the belief systems lie, it's no suprise you've been STUCK on the Lower Astral.  THERE IS A WAR GOING ON THERE.  There is an old occult maxim:  "As above, so below."  It's as bad up there as it is down here!

But there is a way out . . . but it's not by latching yourself onto any "belief system" that any religion can dole out.  It's done by finding peace within, peace between yourself and the Divine Force that is All.  From all your angst and upset over the state of things, it's obvious you've got a long, long, long way to go.  Pray on this! The Divine is ALL.  The good and the bad.  Even Satan and Hell are within His control.  When you die, you go to God, because there simply is NOWHERE ELSE TO GO.  What PART of God you end up in is a different matter.  The ironic thing is, the people who obsess on Hell are the ones who end up there.  Lesson: What fills your head is very, very important.  

So try a smile, do a good deed and show some love, it's a beautiful day, even if it's raining.

Allanon-
I have not responded to any of your posts up to this point. And I am not intending to argue with you at all. I respect your visions, although I do question your interpretation of them. However, its not for me to interpret what has been given to you. You need to figure that out for yourself.

I have only been astral projecting (by 'accident') within the past year. So I'm by far an experienced traveler. And I am not well versed on all religions or theosophies. I read whatever I find myself attracted to. So what I'm stating here is based purely on my own opinion and experiences.

I can tell you, as Tisha has implied, that I have personally met the 'real' Jesus twice in the (upper) astral. The place is unmistakable and his presence left no doubt about the identity. I also met a fake as well. But I could tell instantly it wasn't him.

I've had my own visions, which I interpret as supporting many of the things that you have denounced on the various forums. So while I appreciate your sharing and your eagerness to spread the truth as you perceive it, I would simply state that your visions that you interpret as THE truth are not consistent with my visions and MY truth. And I'm sure that others here can say similar things.

All this to say that the determination you exhibit based on your experiences is probably equal to the determination as myself and others have experienced. The only differences being:
1) we are interpreting our visions/experiences to mean something other than what you interpret yours; and
2) we are not as over zealous about turning others from what we perceive to be 'the dark side'.

So basically your determination is coming up against others with equal determination. I think that all that will transpire is a stale-mate.

No one knows if one of us, none of us or all of us are right in our interpretations. But the free will we all have allows us to each follow our own truth and deal with whatever 'consequences' come about from our own decisions.

I wish you all the best and truly hope that you are on the right spiritual path for yourself at this point in time.

Perhaps the writer suffers from lack of Free Thinking, did Jesus say Seek you First the Kingdom of Heaven or was that Budda? I get confused, but I could be possessed. I'm NOT happy about that.
Didn't Jesus also get ticked about the way the religion was being used for some folks own agenda or was that Mohammed. Maybe my attitude needs new focus. Perhaps I should knock, would the door open?
Maybe if I ask, it would be given to me. I know, if I seek, I will find (the answer). And IF I have FAITH, yes FAITH, that mountain is outa here. Perhaps the writer needs a bit more reading,or some prayer for understanding, (which is all the wisest man in the bible asked for) works for me. Only if you believe it... Trust your instinct, and please someone send that person a copy of Sir Bruces latest book. For truly he is wise beyound his years. Better still we could just pray for him and hope the message gets thru.       WGT.

quote:

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Even hundreds of thousands of years from now, even names like Beethove, Mozart, Bach, Handel, Haydn, DeBussy, etc. will all be forgotten, fading away with time. But it does not mean that they cease to exist. This world exists to serve a purpose, and that is why it is a key part of the war.

---

This war we as humans cannot hope to win. Darkness abounds and it grows stronger every day. This physical world is a mirror of the higher realms and it is all too apparent that things are escalating to a boil. What can we do? How can we fight? We try to be good people but we always slip up somewhere. We yell at our friends or cuss when someone makes a mistake and this just churns the wheels of hate once more. We are not strong enough to win the war in the phsyical reality and we are not strong enough to even begin to think about conquering demons.

Mankind needs a Saviour. Needs a rope to pull us up when we slip. Needs a reason to fight on when we feel the darkness coming. All have tried in there own way to fight the good fight but it is time for the Hero.

Next time you are projecting just try to imagine this scene. The great forces of evil are massing in heaven to overcome the God of Love. The lines are drawn and the time of compromise is over. The great Dragon rises up as the first created being and the mightiest Angel in all of Heaven. Who could possibly defeat this foe? This is where the Hero comes in. That Hero is Jesus the Christ and also known as the Archangel Michael. The only One above the Dragon.

7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.


THE DRAGON TAKES RESIDENCE IN THE EARTH, HIS TIME TO RULE IS NOW. BUT THE TIME IS COMING WHEN THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL WILL COME AND DEFEAT THE DRAGON. CAST YOUR LOT WITH THE HERO AND FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT.

KEEP ON PRAYING FOR THE RETURN OF THE HERO AND SAVIOUR OF MANKIND. HAVE FAITH AND SPREAD THE LOVE IN YOUR HEARTS THE BEST WAY YOU CAN. THAT IS THE ONLY WEAPON WE HAVE NOW. HOPE, FAITH, AND LOVE.

quote:

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Poor Allanon! Sounds like all your time "out" is spent on the Lower Astral.

---

Well honey the sad reality is WE ARE IN THE LOWER ASTRAL. You can wishful think all you want but this place is as dense and full of matter as it gets! We have to deal with the reality that is HERE.

Hey Allanon

LAY 0FF THE CAPS LOCKS. Turn off the caps lock man when you post, it's considered rude, yelling and annoying. And calm down when you post, there's no need to get so emotional. You're really starting to tinkle me the hell off everytime you post with the preaching and yelling at the top of your lungs with the caps lock, and I've only been here for like 3 days. And as for the topic, probably Jesus is laughing his butt off right now everytime he reads your posts.

Jesus Christ man. (sorry, I couldn't help myself [:D] with this last bit.)

Greetings Allanon,

quote:

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Originally posted by Allanon
THE DRAGON TAKES RESIDENCE IN THE EARTH, HIS TIME TO RULE IS NOW. BUT THE TIME IS COMING WHEN THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL WILL COME AND DEFEAT THE DRAGON. CAST YOUR LOT WITH THE HERO AND FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT.

KEEP ON PRAYING FOR THE RETURN OF THE HERO AND SAVIOUR OF MANKIND. HAVE FAITH AND SPREAD THE LOVE IN YOUR HEARTS THE BEST WAY YOU CAN. THAT IS THE ONLY WEAPON WE HAVE NOW. HOPE, FAITH, AND LOVE.

---

I thought you promised to stop shouting all of this dogma at the top of your voice? Anyway, I suggest you do so; you have been given more than enought lattitude and you are simply annoying other members.

There is plenty of room here for reasoned debate and disagreement, but not persistent out and out preaching and evangelising in multiple caps lock created topics.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Most here on the board I am sure have made claims to many "projecting" experiences. WHY IS IT THAT THERE IS LITTLE MENTION OVER THE WAR THAT IS GOING ON? From my own position there is obvious evidence of mass war in the spirtual realms when you project. I saw these things even before I joined arms with Christ. Comments on this, perceptions, experiences validating ARMAGEDDON etc?

quote:

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You're really starting to tinkle me the hell off everytime you post with the preaching and yelling at the top of your lungs with the caps lock, and I've only been here for like 3 days. And as for the topic, probably Jesus is laughing his butt off right now everytime he reads your posts.

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Leave this thread if you do not like my writing style. The Truth of the Power of Christ will be made to the ends of the earth and it is my FREEDOM OF SPEECH to proclaim it as long as it is done in a tasteful manner. I have not cursed anyone here or said anything that could not be considered acceptable as per the rules of polite debate in a classroom setting.

Interesting how you New Agers are so inclined to have open minds but you react with such anger when someone has PASSION for the True God of the Bible who is the Lord of Lords.

Didja really thing I'd let this topic be locked without me posting on it?  Of course not!  :D

Ok, hi Allanon, and thanks for this topic...  It is the funniest thing I have ever read in my entire life.

I'm not dissing ya, I'm a Catholic...  You know, that branch of Christianity that's supposedly more righteous and whatnot?  Of course I could care less about what it's supposed to be.... :)

Well, I have always learned in my youth group (Catholic Life Community) that we're to respect other people's choices in the religions they choose.  There are no BAD religions, they are all based on the same principles as yours and mine.  The main ones have a book as well, and a prophet.  BUT, much like ours, there is no proof of anything.

I have to wonder... what made you post this?  Are you attempting a mass conversion here?  Are you just spreading propaganda? Or are you just insane and want everyone to hear what you have to say.  These are the only 3 I can think of.

So, you can't call me a satan worshipper, and I'm highly interested in Astral Projection.  Then what am I?  Just xonked out of the reality that exists within you? I had no idea! I'll get right to that... once I CARE.

~Squeek

PS - WOW! I thought you were like 13.  You're really 22 years old? That's impossible... even I KNOW how to spell "purgatory" [;)]

MORE of a PS - Sorry to the moderators for this... I read it and realized I just had to post.  My opinion matters too.

The Lord would not want you to fight he gave you a soul why not make it the best it can be??

quote:

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So, you can't call me a satan worshipper, and I'm highly interested in Astral Projection. Then what am I? Just xonked out of the reality that exists within you? I had no idea! I'll get right to that... once I CARE.

~Squeek

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Out of body experiences without the protection of the Holy Spirit are dangerous and can lead to possession. Life should be taken seriously and God's Laws should be upheld to the best of your ability.

quote:

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PS - WOW! I thought you were like 13. You're really 22 years old? That's impossible... even I KNOW how to spell "purgatory"

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Purgatory is not a Biblical concept and Catholics are NOT True followers of Biblical Doctrine.

quote:

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Purgatory is not a Biblical concept

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I think Squeek meant you spelled it wrong somewhere and he never did. :D

Allanon, stop trying to be such a mass converter. I once heard a preacher proclaiming to the congregation that yoga, aromatherapy, acupuncture, even MARTIAL ARTS was the spawn of Satan. Personally, I get sick of all this religious dogma bovine excrement. People like you just tinkle other people off. If you are such a great Christian or whatever, leave people alone. You're God might forgive you, but people around here are getting sick of your rantings. We choose to practice Astral Projection? So what. What the Hell is your panzy religious butt gonna do about it.

And I don't see anyone with Satan in them now do I? Anyone else?

~FT

quote:

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You're God might forgive you, but people around here are getting sick of your rantings. We choose to practice Astral Projection? So what. What the Hell is your panzy religious butt gonna do about it.

---

Once again it should be noted that AP can be dangerous if done without the protection of the Holy Spirit. Go ahead and project but what is it you BELIEVE after your experiences? Do you believe you will live forever and that once your physical body dies you simply "fly" off to the astral? This is FALSE TEACHINGS and the fruit of a bad seed in your mind probably due to conversing with evil spirits that you were not aware of.

Christians are no better than anyone else. They just think ahead of time and realize that the judgement is not something to take lightly. Sure go ahead and astral project but when the final trumpet sounds are you going to be on the Right side of the battle lines?

Allanon, Im sorry if this is interpreted as a flame, but you sir, are a complete and utter fool.

You are blindly preaching a dead mans misinterpretations. Jesus was a psychotic with special abilities and a ^%$#ed up idealism about himself and others.

"He died for your sin"-HE DIED FOR THE PEOPLE OF HIS CURRENT TIMES SIN, SIN IS EVER EVIDENT, SIN IS UNSTOPPABLE, SIN IS A FORCE THAT IS ALWAYS AROUND, HIDING BEHIND TRUTHS THAT YOU PREACH TO BE THE WORD OF GOD!

You claim the bible is the word of god, IT IS A BOOK DAMNIT!. IT IS A TEXT THAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN, REWRITTEN, AND WRITTEN AGAIN BY FOOLS SUCH AS YOURSELF THAT BELEIVE THEY HOLD A PURPOSE!

NEXT! You are threatening us with your beleifs, which I have forementioned, are wrong. Not only are you lying to yourself, you are sinning by pushing your religion on others with an obknoxious and harmful attitude. Had I not told you this, you would still have sin in your heart and soul when you died, and would plummet to the hellish place you narrow minded christians fear so much.

"ATTENTION ASTRAL PROJECTORS: SATAN DECEIVES YOU!"- No my brother, you deceive yourself at the will of any dark being and all that is wrong, I fear for you and take pity on your soul.
_______________________

I have nothing against Christians, but I beleive you have some ideals to sort out.


Allanon, I hope you reconsider your foolish preachings and realize the truth about yourself and others, before you try to teach. Confucious was a fool, an intelligent one, but a fool still, as was Jesus and many other "prophets" mentioned through the ages.

NOBODY KNOWS THEMSELVES OR ANYONE ELSE, BUT THE FACT THEY TRY AND DO NOT ATTEMPT TO CONTROL OTHERS IS WHAT SETS THEM APART.

Come to me after your death, and THEN you will know the truth, as will I.

I am not perfect, I do not know myself, but I try to deter others from trying to preach lies and misconceptions.

quote:

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Allanon, Im sorry if this is interpreted as a flame, but you sir, are a complete and utter fool.

You are blindly preaching a dead mans misinterpretations. Jesus was a psychotic with special abilities and a ^%$#ed up idealism about himself and others.

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I will agree with you Psi that Christianity and its superiority over man made religons rests on one tennat.......THE RESSURECTION OF JESUS CHRIST.

However it is evident that the testimony of the apostles and the Holy inspired Word of God is not enough "evidence" for you.

quote:

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NEXT! You are threatening us with your beleifs, which I have forementioned, are wrong. Not only are you lying to yourself, you are sinning by pushing your religion on others with an obknoxious and harmful attitude. Had I not told you this, you would still have sin in your heart and soul when you died, and would plummet to the hellish place you narrow minded christians fear so much.

---

quote:

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HE DIED FOR THE PEOPLE OF HIS CURRENT TIMES SIN, SIN IS EVER EVIDENT, SIN IS UNSTOPPABLE, SIN IS A FORCE THAT IS ALWAYS AROUND, HIDING BEHIND TRUTHS THAT YOU PREACH TO BE THE WORD OF GOD!

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I agree that SIN is ever evident and UNSTOPPABLE save for the power of the Holy Spirit. If you are heavy burden with what you know in your heart to be wrong than all you have to do is lay your pain at the foot of the cross. Christ died for ALL time and not just for the sins of the Jews.

Christians are not better than anyone else!!! This cannot be stressed enough. Christians recognize the JUDGEMENT that comes for all man's crimes and instead of taking the sentance themselves they lay it at the feet of Jesus. Hell is a coming reality for all that refuse the free gift of forgiveness. IT IS NOT HARD TO BE FORGIVEN!!!

Back to the issue of this thread.....When you AP without the protection of the Holy Spirit, you put yourself at the mercy of beings that are beyond your power. You may be decieved by miraculous signs and visions that are put in the mind as seeds that when fully grown and fruited become FALSE FRUITS that blind the Truth. I am sure you believe you live forever without the cross and that is the SPIRIT OF THE ANTI CHRIST. You are fooled into thinking that once you breath your last you will still have the breath of God. No this is a fallacy. The next thing known to the dead will be a RESSURECTION either in or out of the Body of Christ. Be careful that you are looking ahead to the judgement and prepare like a mountain climber as he sets to the summit. There may be safe enough looking paths to the top but in the end without the rope that is Christ you will have no one to catch you if you fall.

Allanon: what do you care? The only thing you reach with this posts is that people repel your precious christian belief.

You are starting to make me want to CONVERT!!!...

To no religion at all.  I'm serious.  Preaching sucks.

You really do think you're better than us all don't you?  Isn't that a sin?  Pride?  I thought so.  You cannot deny this, you posted it yourself.

I quote some smart dude who said this once "Don't fix it if it aint broke"  we aint broke. don't fix us.

~Squeek

PS - I am very critical of spelling, Nay would tell ya that :) And since you're already managed to get me angry with you, I thought I'd go ahead and help you out... just for fun.  Here is a corrected spelling of many of the words that should be known easily.

Resurrection.
Religions.
Sentence.
Purgatory.
Accept.
Believe.
Going.
Incorruptable.
Surely.
Christ.

Man that's enough.  Sheesh...

quote:

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Allanon: what do you care? The only thing you reach with this posts is that people repel your precious christian belief.

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Jesus came not for the righteous but for the sinner. The Gospel first and foremost needs to be brought to those that are really lost. Once everyone has made achoice regarding following Christ than the judgement will be unfolded.

Allanon...pssssssssst..come here.....closer....nooooo...closer...



SHUT-UP!

Stop quoting all those verses......

You remind me of a younger me...LOL.  when I was in school, the kids would cuss in the hallway and I would stop what I was doing and pray for their souls...Man, was that a waste of time, where the heck did it get me?...Late for class was all!
You can't save everyone...no way, not gonna happen.. and ya know what?  I bet God is laughing his wonderful arse off right now! He is living this whole thing out thru YOU!  He is experiencing what you experience.  That is what we are here for, to experience all things, all emotions... for him..because he can't. You can read all the books you want on how to fly a plane..but until you do, you have NO idea what it is like.  So, here we are..lol  listening to you yell at us about our souls burning away... what a ghastly thought!  And God judging us? what is that? He is not a judging God.. When we die, we judge ourselfs..period!  And let me tell you..that is the worst kind of judgment.
Ahhhh well, I have said my say...which of course isn't much.hehehe but what's a girl to do?...  I only have twenty or so more post till I am a gold..Whooo hoooo [:D]  Wow, that was rude!

Nay. [;)]

Remember, everyone, every time someone reacts to this thread, it floats to the top of the heap.  So before you post an angry response, ask yourselves . . . is that where you want it to be?  

Your choice . . . and my two cents . . .

quote:

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Allanon...pssssssssst..come here.....closer....nooooo...closer...



SHUT-UP!

Stop quoting all those verses......

You remind me of a younger me...LOL. when I was in school, the kids would cuss in the hallway and I would stop what I was doing and pray for their souls...Man, was that a waste of time, where the heck did it get me?...Late for class was all!
You can't save everyone...no way, not gonna happen.. and ya know what? I bet God is laughing his wonderful arse off right now! He is living this whole thing out thru YOU! He is experiencing what you experience. That is what we are here for, to experience all things, all emotions... for him..because he can't. You can read all the books you want on how to fly a plane..but until you do, you have NO idea what it is like. So, here we are..lol listening to you yell at us about our souls burning away... what a ghastly thought! And God judging us? what is that? He is not a judging God.. When we die, we judge ourselfs..period! And let me tell you..that is the worst kind of judgment.
Ahhhh well, I have said my say...which of course isn't much.hehehe but what's a girl to do?... I only have twenty or so more post till I am a gold..Whooo hoooo  Wow, that was rude!

Nay.

---

Jeremiah 1
17 "Get yourself ready! Stand up and say to them whatever I command you. Do not be terrified by them, or I will terrify you before them.


You have a lot of fear and dispair in your writings Nay. It is not something you have to live with anyomore. All those that are heavy burden with the weight of the life of sin can lay it at the foot of the cross. I will pray for you now as I type and hope the Holy Spirit fills your heart with the knowledge of the Truth that is found through the Holy Lamb.

When you are Born Again it really is like being a totally new person. Instead of following the old carnal nature you are allowed to think in the Mind of Christ. In that I mean you feel things much more intensly especially if they have to do with Right and wrong action. It is like you are a small child again when you used to feel guilty just for saying a little cuss word. Your sensitivity to the wants of the Lord fill your heart and soul. You know it is all for the best even though at times it can be hard due to your family and friends unbelief. Seeing a small child can put an ache in your heart because you just dont know how he/she will be brought up. It is a hard burden to carry your own cross but in the end after the good fight is done those found under the banner of the Cross will find the peace that was always there.

I hope I have planted a seed of Truth in the hearts of those who have read this and I pray you give Christ the call to unleash you from the bondage of sin and demons.

You said absolutely nothing to refute my claims, and your still uses quotes from a nonexistant book of holy words, and if now more than ever, your a fool to yourself.

Also, SIN IS A ^%$#ing SIN, NOTHING CAN CHANGE THAT.
If you want to argue with unbased but partially correct baseball, I can play along :-D/

Fine, if I truly repent a crime I have commited, does that truly change anything in the hearts of those I have affected? NO! Does that change the fact I have commited said crime? NO! Does repenting do a damn thing for religion as a result? NO!

YOU CANNOT TRY TO TELL ME THAT A MAN WILL STILL BE REWARDED AFTER TAKING THE LIFE OF ANOTHER. I DON'T CARE IF HE REPENTS ALL DAY, A MAN IS DEAD, THROUGH AND THROUGH.

Your preaching to a brick wall that has already been built to force out your religion, and if you want to continue to be a jester for your own beleifs, please do so elsewhere. Your no better than a selfish satanist on a "ME ME" ego trip. Your already disliked by quite a few here. My advice, close your mouth, your account, and take your overballistic and idiot wannabe "ME ME" ego trip ELSEWHERE.

YOU TRY TO CONVERT BECAUSE YOU HAVE PRIDE IN YOUR RELIGION, PRIDE IS A SIN.

If you truly are religious as you claim to be and aren't just here to tinkle everyone off, then I am happy for you. Go take your OWN PERSONAL BELEIF SYSTEM and KEEP TO YOURSELF.

Many people dislike my Agnosticism, but they never know unless they ask! Keep it that way with yourself.

Evidently you got into a lot of trouble as a child and ticked a LOT of people off, because you can't worry about yourself, which is more annoying unhelpful than you may think. Ever hear the saying "Let Johnny worry about Johnny"?

quote:

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Once again it should be noted that AP can be dangerous if done without the protection of the Holy Spirit. Go ahead and project but what is it you BELIEVE after your experiences? Do you believe you will live forever and that once your physical body dies you simply "fly" off to the astral? This is FALSE TEACHINGS and the fruit of a bad seed in your mind probably due to conversing with evil spirits that you were not aware of.

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How do you know ? I know i know, your going to say its all in the bible, but as there is no proof that anything in the bible is true, how do you justefy any of your "what your doing is EVIL" finger-pointing to us?

It all comes down to wish-belief, because there simply is no proof of  anything in the bible, so i ask you is it right to try to force your belief on someone else whitout any proof that its true ?

Now here is a tought, god gives us a choose right? yes? Ok then why does he test us whitout giving us 2 clear ways? Why doesnt he make sure everyone KNOWS(by giving us proof) the bible is true ? You think thats fair?

Now you can belief anything you want just dont preach anyone about, if i really tought someone must be made clear of a belief i think is true and i have no proof, i would only as far as to make subtle sugestion.Thats what you should be doing instead of presenting yourself as a arogant christian who claims to know it all.

Awwwww Tisha, I was just kiddin..  No one gets my sense on humor.[:(]

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You have a lot of fear and dispair in your writings Nay. It is not something you have to live with anyomore. All those that are heavy burden with the weight of the life of sin can lay it at the foot of the cross. I will pray for you now as I type and hope the Holy Spirit fills your heart with the knowledge of the Truth that is found through the Holy Lamb.

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Wow! you were way off on that! hehehe  No fear or despair here [:D]
I am quite comfortable with my relationship with God and pray for his divine light to protect me every night in my "travels"  So, I am good, thanks anyways..[:)]

Nay. [;)]

He he Nay, I had imagined you already shouting the two words in front of Allanon :-P, seeing Allanon already with his hairs backwards... ;-P

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YOU CANNOT TRY TO TELL ME THAT A MAN WILL STILL BE REWARDED AFTER TAKING THE LIFE OF ANOTHER. I DON'T CARE IF HE REPENTS ALL DAY, A MAN IS DEAD, THROUGH AND THROUGH.

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You are quite Right in this statement. There is nothing that can be done to rectify the situation through the flesh. That is why we lay the sin at the foot of the cross and Christ with His perfect sacrifice PAYS THE PENALTY for the crime.

quote:

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YOU TRY TO CONVERT BECAUSE YOU HAVE PRIDE IN YOUR RELIGION, PRIDE IS A SIN.

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Jeremiah 13
16 Give glory to the LORD your God
before he brings the darkness,
before your feet stumble
on the darkening hills.
You hope for light,
but he will turn it to thick darkness
and change it to deep gloom.


You are right. I have Pride in the Son of God. He did something that is so wonderful. As for myself I know I do not measure up to the standard of the Most High God but I am trying to change into the likeness of Christ and live for Him alone.

CHRIST WANTS YOU TO BE FREE. DO NOT CONFORM TO THE PATTERNS OF THIS WORLD ANY LONGER BUT BE TRANSFORMED BY A RENEWING OF YOU MIND. THIS WAY YOU CAN TEST WHAT GOD'S WILL IS. HIS PERFECT, HOLY AND PLEASING WILL.

OK, this is at the top of the heap again so I'm not doing extra damage by replying.

We should all get T-shirts:  "Dear God, please protect me from your followers."

And with that I bid this subject adieu!

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That is why we lay the sin at the foot of the cross and Christ with His perfect sacrifice PAYS THE PENALTY for the crime.

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When you take a good look at it, christians are very clever. They devised a figure like Christ, for their own good. That allowed them not to carry the burden of their own sins, but just give them to Christ. Christ must be doing a loooooooooonng time paying all the penalties.......

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This cannot be stressed enough. Christians recognize the JUDGEMENT that comes for all man's crimes and instead of taking the sentance themselves they lay it at the feet of Jesus. Hell is a coming reality for all that refuse the free gift of forgiveness. IT IS NOT HARD TO BE FORGIVEN!!!

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So your saying that I can &^%$ up anybody I want and if I truly feel sorry for it, I can blame it on your Christ and get away with it? Damn! IM TEMPTED TO CONVERT NOW!
------------------------------------------------------

Your a poor exuse for a preacher and you talk from your butt, I have nothing more to say to you, and may you create your own hell from your foolishness.

To everyone else, Adios :-D

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So your saying that I can &^%$ up anybody I want and if I truly feel sorry for it, I can blame it on your Christ and get away with it? Damn! IM TEMPTED TO CONVERT NOW!

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Jesus is very clear that the first step is accepting His Blood for forgiveness. Than it is a matter of allowing the Holy Spirit to keep you on the strait and narrow. When you are Born Again you dont WANT to kill someone or sin against Him. That is how you can tell if a person has the Holy Spirit in his life. If they respect God and His Law.

quote:

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Your a poor exuse for a preacher and you talk from your butt, I have nothing more to say to you, and may you create your own hell from your foolishness.

To everyone else, Adios :-D

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What I am saying on these boards is the basic "milk" steps of the Biblical Doctrine. I am sure that most Christians would agree with whatis being said as it is not something I just got up one day and "made up".

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What I am saying on these boards is the basic "milk" steps of the Biblical Doctrine. I am sure that most Christians would agree with whatis being said as it is not something I just got up one day and "made up".

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That's exactly what is one big point. You are spouting phrases that are based on a doctrine, you're citing things from a book.

People are not looking for that on these forums; what makes it interesting are the personal experiences. People don't come to this forum to be converted.

One whose Spiritual eyes and ears are not open cannot claim to possess understanding of a Spiritual book, simply put. [:o)]

Isn't it a curiosity that those who constantly mention "Satan," have never heard of Ahriman.  What a curiosity?

One would be well-served to concentrate on positive thoughts and not be pre-occupied with one whose job is to place obstructions in their way.  These obstructions only make us stronger.  The more I die, the better I live. [;)]

It is wise to understand the Hierarchies and learn to work with them.  In esoteric Christianity, they are: Angels, Archangels, Principalities, Powers, Mights, Dominions, Thrones, Cherubim, and Seraphim.  The human race follows on below. [8D]

Many ignorant religions teach that there are no beings between the human being and God.  This lazy mode of thinking will never promote a real understanding of the world; it will never give one a real picture of world evolution.  This is why humanity has lost its understanding of the world; and materialistic ideas will time and time again be able to out-argue that part of religion that rests soley on sentiments and dim feelings.  The Spiritual scientific world view, by giving people a new opportunity to hear something about these beings, is opening up an understanding of the world again.  A criterion is being established to set against this denial of a higher world.  The people who are resisting the recognition of this world today are preparing the soil for the most insipid and devastating materialism.  The materialists themselves are actually themselves the victims; the real instigators of the process are the ones who are complaisant enough not to want to know about what exists between human beings and God. [}:)]

Ignorance is the enemy- not individuals.  So let us balance the ignorance... [^]

this post is getting more and more sterile and annoying...isn't it time to lock it ? Please people, there is more post in those inproductive discussions than in the interesting subject for us all:
Astral projecting !

G'day Folks!

Wherever this topic is going, I think its healthy. Whoever you are and whatever you believe in, in Western society you will eventually come across born agains, baptists, christian fundamentalists of all types. So, here is an opportunity for everyone to test out their wit and mettle in this arena. So debating here has merit for everyone.

On a personal note, I would like to see the christian fundamentalists posting here go head to head with a person with a Phd level in religious studies. They would 'blow' them out of the water, I kid you not.

I have made a few comments here, and thrown some bait, but none has been taken.  I say again, there is 'no' historical proof to support what is in the bible. The only thing that supports the bible is the bible itself. This is fact, provable, etc. Anyone want to take the challenge?????  

My religious schollar friends tell me that christians 'hate' this mention, re its true and cannot be debated. Fact.

I also love the way that christian fundamentalists only take what they like from the bible, and ignore the rest.


Take care, Robert.

Dear RB I guess I could take up that challenge  and explain at least my viewpoint. Firstly I appreciate your comments, I think it is a good point that people should debate their opinions and will gladly do so. Something Christians very rarely allow, out of fear that "week ones can be led astray". I have no degrees in religion but know the Bible well and have a fair amount of life experience as well as experience with Christians at large and folks from other faiths.

About the proof of the Bible, lets just agree that there is very little evidence ,of the Historical Jesus and even until recently there was hardly any findings supporting the existance of David the King who was thought to have written the Psalms. The books are from what I understand often written by other people that the one whos name they bear . The Historical findings are at best confusing and at worst .....confusing too I guess. I never bothered reading a lot about it but I will take your word for it as a gentleman, so.. all in all we Christians may be in trouble trying to prove that the Bible is historically correct......however we Christians BELIEVE it is. That is the whole point , we believe. In greek the word used is "pisteu" meaning, to drink in. So we "drink in" the Bible.
The reason for this is that in our understanding the Bible is not a collection of histories and allegories but it is "the living word of God". Mostly becourse we PROVE it in our own lives everyday as a standard by wich we messure our lives. Allthough changed and maybe even altered or wrongly selected by the different popes and what have you, The SPIRIT of GOD has found its way into those pages anyway. It is like the life of Christ,(and the Bible) is alive through his spirit and has guided the hands of those who changed and altered and selected and for us it is empowered by the Spirit of God. The reading of it gives us spiritual health faith and love, and its words holds the secret to every Christians self understanding and expression.

Now the problem comes when people qoute it out of context. The warnings given to the Jews in the old testemant are not transferrable automaticly to people of today allthough the principles may be. There are things in the new testament that I do not adhere to teachings of Paul FX that others hold dear that I feel are his words and not Gods, but the principles and motive may be. It is very hard to explain .I think that many discard it without understanding or trying it, thinking it to be a crutch for people who are scared of "reality". We believe (and many of us come from very strong disbelief too) that if a person really from their heart asks for Jesus to show them the truth they will be shown. That he is alive in the Spirit world the astral world or whatever we call it and communicates through his word, elluminating passages daily to lead and guide individually , sort of a code manual.
On another note we have our zealots like Allanon young and very full of energy but sadly quite unbending and harsh and unloving, and I believe that he is in error and "living by the law". He takes certain passages and applies them as law, and unlovingly whips people with them. He believes himself to be the instrument of god wrecking his own little havoc and everytime people protest this mistreatment he runs to the scriptures and picks the ones that support his actions, indiscriminately qouting from this person and that the new and old testament etc. It seems that most religions have these zealots who use the religion they adhere to as a way to obtail power. I Mostly that is true about Christians Muslims Jews and Hidus but even the Buddhists have a tratition of selfrighteousness, I lived for many years in Nepal and know the tibethean Buddhists well . I recall some fanatic buddhists even set themselves on fire to protest a cause. It seems that is the human aspect , when people feel they obtain Righteousness through some faith they adhere to. The Bible specifically explains however that we are not under any law and that people who LOVE and who are guided by LOVE know God (to what extend it does not say). (I include the ref 1 john 4.) There are many of us who have very deep spiritual experiences not unlike your own, who are not so sure how it all works but who is asking God for wisdom about it . I had OBE experiences since childhood and do not believe them to be of the Devil. I researched the Bible and on the contrary find I can prove the opposite that they seem to be mentioned in the Bible in many places. I have found the Bible and my faith in Jesus to be a big help in fighting Negs and it has given me hope faith and a lot of love and I have had a good life adhering to it. Maybe this is partly becourse I do not go to Church and try to minimise the time I spend with very dogmatic folks like dear Allanon, or even some from this forum . My life is lived in the bright sunshine with respect and love(though I do get ticked off sometimes too)Maybe I got a bit off the subject about Proving the Historical facts but it seems to be a general consensus that there was a guy a special guy back then by that name, and I think he lives on in the Spirit world and that he is the Son of God, but weather you believe it to be so or not.....that is up to you.
Kindly Mustardseed
PS sorry about the editing I keep reading it after it is posted and finding spelling errors

Mustardseed,
Excellent, you said it better than I could. I've been passing this thread by lately but after reading your comments I wanted to acknowledge a like opinion. I've recently concluded a 2 year study of the bible and context is very important (2 years was not nearly enough time). Just because certain words or phrases are in the bible does not necessarily mean they apply to a given point or arguement, you have to understand the context in which they were used.

You touched on the old/new testement thing, I wanted to expand a little. Though many principals apply, old testement = old thinking/old ways, new testament = new thinking/new ways. Many things in the new testement are rooted in the old. Allanon would rather condem according to the law. While that was the teaching of the old testement, Jesus brought teaching through love in the new. What Allanon fails to realize is that when Christ died, the ways and jewish law of the old died with him sybolized by the curtains of the tabernacle being torn. In the new testement Jesus interprets the ten commandments given in the old testement and tells us how we're to live. Maybe, Allanon, you should study more, just a suggestion.

I'm no scholar and you'll never hear me quoting scripture. Two reasons, satan can quote scripture and it annoys people, so its a waste.

Dang, I had a whole essay written. Then I hit the back button on my mouse.

I will say that there is historical evidence of certain people and places(places which no longer exist), but as for hard evidence of events, then no, there is none that I know of.

One could look towards the writings of historians of the time but they are from 20-150 years after the crucifixian.

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G'day Folks!

Wherever this topic is going, I think its healthy. Whoever you are and whatever you believe in, in Western society you will eventually come across born agains, baptists, christian fundamentalists of all types. So, here is an opportunity for everyone to test out their wit and mettle in this arena. So debating here has merit for everyone.

On a personal note, I would like to see the christian fundamentalists posting here go head to head with a person with a Phd level in religious studies. They would 'blow' them out of the water, I kid you not.

I have made a few comments here, and thrown some bait, but none has been taken. I say again, there is 'no' historical proof to support what is in the bible. The only thing that supports the bible is the bible itself. This is fact, provable, etc. Anyone want to take the challenge?????

My religious schollar friends tell me that christians 'hate' this mention, re its true and cannot be debated. Fact.

I also love the way that christian fundamentalists only take what they like from the bible, and ignore the rest.


Take care, Robert.

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Robert,

You have a true lack of the Way, the Truth, and the Light. Not to mention you have no clue what True knowledge is. This life is a test. You place all your faith in the senses. What you can see, taste, hear, smell. You put your Salvation into the hands of a lucid dream that is not the True reality of things. This world is the Devil's playground and your faith in what man put in history books is a fallacy and a shame. You decieve those that are just breaking from the illusion and give them another dream in its wake. Your idealogies and New Age propaganda is nothing more than taking a blender of Panthiesm, ancient mystical pagainism, demon worship, eastern meditation and putting it on high speed. Your book is nothing more than the works of your dreams.

The Holy Bible is the Mind of God.

You play with the Kundalini serpent and expect it not to be the Devil? You tell people that there sins are forgiven without the Blood and everything is ok. Ye shall shurly not die. The first lie of the serpent and it is all to evident on this board. When you are Born Again you see things through the eyes of Christ. If you are not than you are still in the illusion of the senses. You will believe the scientists, the mystics, the demons, the world when they say that Christ is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

Keep your trust in what you can percieve through your senses. Chase your dreams and experiences rather than the Truth. There are things in your past that you do not know how to pay for. All the wishful thinking and flying into the frayed, purple astral will not save your soul.

As for your PHD men send them in. They have been indoctrinated by the Serpent and follow the idols of fame and greed. They will say anything to keep thier "titles" secure and the Truth from the mind of the seeker. They have taken the Keys of Knowledge and locked them up in order to keep thier positions.

Stick to your Matrix but you dont have too. Stick to your prison if that is what you really want.

Jesus Christ is the Only Way and The Holy Bible is the Perfect Standard and proclamation of His Will.

Love your Brother as yourself but DO NOT LOVE THE SIN AND REJECTION OF THE TRUTH THAT IS KILLING US.

pfff...it's getting more and more ridiculous...

Any moderator here ?

G'day Folks!

Firstly, thank you Mustardseed for your thoughtful and intelligent post. I agree with just about everything you say. The essence of a true christian, or a person of any religion for that matter, does not flow from the dusty pages of books, but from faith and spiritual action, and from living one's life according to these beliefs.

My earlier post was to throw light upon the fact that nothing in the bible can be historically or scientifically supported; not one shred of it. This indicates that the events shown in the bible are most likely fabricated. Now, I agree that the bible is a work of genious containing great spiritual truths. But if the stories and events in the bible are fabricated, what does this tell us?

My thought is that the whole bible is like a parable, eg, a work of fiction designed to teach spiritual truths. But, if one examines the gnostic gospels (all the testaments that were discarded when the bible was put together), it is also apparent that the bible was designed to suppress freedom of thought, and to brainwash the masses so they are easier to control, eg, its formation was politically motivated to some extent.

And if you look at fundamental christian ideals, as have often been stated here, they sound very much like cult propaganda, eg, based on fanatical blind faith, blackmailing people through fear of everlasting punishment to tow the line, etc. But this is understandable as christianity did start out as a cult.

If, as has been claimed, the bible is the actual word of God, written by men inspired directly by God, then is it not reasonable to ask why the bible was not written in a more historically accurate manner? Its easy to say that men are fallible and that they may have made human mistakes while transcribing the bible, but this does not explain the gross historical errors and widespread contradictions that permeate the bible. If God truly inspired the bible and guided its creation, then why is it such a historical and factual mess?

Clues to the answers to some of these questions can be found by studying 3rd century christianity, where everything christian began.  A good place to start would be to read the works of 'Origen' (Origin the man -- there would be no bible or christianity if not for Origin). This book is freely available from the public library. The gnostic gospels are also worth reading, as are the dead sea sea scrolls.

Now I am sure that the zealots among us will quickly trash my words and call me heretic, saying I should ignore all the evidence and just have faith.  But I am in good company, if you count all past scientists and thinkers who have been branded same for disproving popularly accepted beliefs.

Thank goodness that the young christian zealots among us have no power in this world. They would quickly burn all our books and we'd soon find ourselves reverting to 'flat earth' theory and other such base assumptions. Most of us here would be tortured to repent and then burned at the stake. The inquisition would reappear. And then we would have another great dark age of global stagnation, as the world slowly falls into ignorance and war after war until nothing is left. Would this be an ideal christian world, where heretics are burned at the stake for wrong thinking or suspicion of same, or just for being different? This is why democratic governments of today are designed to protect the people from the church.

The point in my above statments is to shed some light on the nature of the arguments and evidence given in this thread, from the christian side, which comes mainly from bible text.  Now, this is not as simple as it sounds, as every christian sect interprets the bible differently.  So given all the above, where does that leave us?  Absolutely nowhere, my friends.  The truth cannot be interpreted from bible text as not even christians can agree on this.  The truth can only be found through life, through living one's life, and through thinking and reasoning.

None of the above is intended as insult; just a presentation of some facts and thoughts, with a little healthy conjecture thrown in for good measure. Faith is a wonderful thing, but the faith of any person is unique and personal by nature, depending on one's life experience.  In my opinion, faith is taken too far when it is used as proof to criticise others, faith or the lack of faith, for the whole truth cannot be shown or told, only lived.

And lastly, as for saying that the proof can be found by living according to the bible, this is ridiculous!  No one actually lives according to the whole word of the bible. They take bits and pieces and ignore the rest. For example, who among us would actually stone our own children to death just because they are lazy and don't listen to us?  This describes most children today! It would be a crazy world if people tried, and everyone would do it differently because everyone interprets bible text differently.

But, and there's always a but in my dictionary, following the spiritual ideals of the bible, or the koran, or any other holy book for that matter, will most assuredly help one to live in spiritual peace and quietude.

In closing, I say that the real truth in the bible is written between the lines, and that no matter what religion one follows, all are looking in the same direction and aspiring to the same goals.

Do not give in to baseless spiritual blackmail!

Food for thought....


Take care, Robert.

Robert,

Only got two words in response to that...BLOODY BRILLIANT!!!

OK Allanon - you're going to want to rip apart Roberts post I just know it. After all, what does he know right?

Lets see you do it speaking as a real person - that is, let's hear your own thoughts, you're own words and reasonings. Not as some machine that's programmed to respond to all statements in the one same tired old manner, because I'll tell you now - after all the warnings you've had -

I'll delete any scriptures you put in to your post or any over-used "Jesus Christ is the Only Way" or "You are being decieved by Satan" quotes,

and I'm not going to do it just to turn your screw or repress freedom of speech or any of that guff. I'm going to do it just to see if we can keep you thinking for yourself instead of coming across like some brainwiped zombie.

Kind regards,
James.

Phew, thank you Bruce and James...

Dear Robert
Firstly I feel quite inferior about my explanations as english is not my first language . Ha I will attempt to answer you anyway. Your post is very complicated and I had to read it several times to even understand parts of it, but I think I have it somewhat sorted out. If I can restate it in a simplified form , please bear with me.

You conclude that since there is no Proof that the Bible is historically correct it is then a fabrication! A falsehood and must by nessety be constructed to lead and control the masses.

Well that would ofcourse be a possibility. However it could also be that since Jesus day many people started to write about the times they had with him. Many recounted experiences and in the end it became overwhelming. At the counsel where someone (was it Konstantine?) desided that they had to have a core. The faith in Jesus and his teaching had to be cleansed from falsehoods and over eccagerations. After really praying and seeking God for his counsel they decided that certain stories and accounts were consistant with each other and maybe God led them to select the right ones which then became the Bible as we know it. We are here talking about the new testament. This then accended through the ages. Is this a possibility. ??

You see, for me you seem to be assuming a negative conspiracy rather that openmindedly considering other possibilities! That these folks maybe really loved the Truth and as yourself, and were honest good men led by God. The Bible has been a great source of inspiration and help to millions of people you do not see in this Forum, is that worth anything?. Maybe you do not believe it and maybe you chose otherwise but just becourse you choose to bellieve differently does not make other choices falsehoods. In the question of faith we are all like little babies scrappeling over toys on the floor.

Regarding the fundementalist I agree with you 100% . They have become the Jews of this age who through the LAW they see will crucify anyone who challenge their beliefs. Quite horrible really, but that is people in a nutshell, not the Bible or God. You might have a hammer that could be used to build a house , but if someone uses it as a weapon to kill someone , that does not make it an battle axe!! Many of the people that adhere to your views maybe even on this board show the same hatred and indulge in similar actions I would call them Fundementalist Gnostics and use downright rude and offensive behaviour, but I would think it to be unfair to blame that on you and the things you have taught, or this forum!! That is their intrepretations and how they use your words. (not a good example but I will let that go...Ha)

In my view Gods Spirit is a moving never static always changing moving effectuating changes in every sphere of life, he himself is not changing at all he is LOVE and whatsoever is done in LOVE is pleasing to him. I would also say to you that it is indeed possible to live by the Bible. Jesus was at one point approched by a Lawer (maybe not unlike yourself) atlest someone pretty clever who it says wanted to trap him. He asked

"Master which is the greatest Commandment in the Law". Jesus said "you must Love God with all your heart spirit and Mind this is the first and greatest commandment and the second in like unto it You must love your neighbour as yourself On these two commandments hang the all the law and the prophets"

This is the essence of the Bible Love God and love others. So if you love someone you will not beat him up with your words you wont steal his wife or cheat him in buissnes you also wont give him / her the hong Kong flue by kissing Him/her on the mouth while you are sick. This commandment is the Spirit of it all (among many Christians called the Golden Law)and indeed both worth living after, and possible to live after. And if you fail to live by it, as we all do at times Jesus will say "oops you fell , upsadaisy, try again you can do it I have faith in you" and then with faith in his faith in you ,you try again you live and learn and maybe just maybe you sometimes get a glimse of His plan.

I think that you have been given great insight , as well a very good mind , and I believe He is inspirieng you!! What you call the overself and what saved you at that terrible experience,in the outback, I believe to be His spirit. That arrow in the cloud and the faith in your heart. I think he loves his children (and that is everyone) so much that he has sent them someone to help them battle these dark forces on their own, since they have been scared away from him, and his safe fold by fundementalists like Allannon and others. Someone to help them in their darkest hour and a little bitty spring in the desert. However I do not believe you are the source of truth and have all the answers. Another story from the bible is about Nicodemus asking Jesus " You say we should be born again how can a man be born again can he  enter the second time into his mothers belly" Jesus said "You must be born of the flesh and of the Spirit for what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit,Nicodemus, You are not far from the Kingdom"

I realise that it is a bit condecending, but also recall that when I first sent you an email privately and wanted to ask you questions and share notes you sent me a article about how Buddists have been scientifically proven to have more peace of mind than people in general. I did not solicit information about Buddhists either, so maybe we can call it even now Ha.

Lots of love and the best regards Mustardseed

Mustardseed -

RB simply said there is no evidence that anything mentioned in the Bible actually happened. You can slap an infinite number of 'possibilities' on it, but the fact still remains that nothing from the Bible can be backed up by anything ever found in archaeology.

Well ok maybe I got carried away from the subject at hand, so let us focus on that. I find it very funny (like HaHa funny)that you Robert and no leaf clover are asking for proof from me, which I stated I did not have and also NEVER CLAIMED TO HAVE :).I merely put forth my thoughts of HOW it could be true. As far as I understand there is likewise no proof for the existance of the astral world!!!Except in the shared experiences of folks who have OBEs. I find it hypocritical that you will ask for proof of the validity of the Bible, and discount that it "could" have happened the way I explained. While at the same time expecting people to believe some of the farfetches theories that you and others have thrown out in this forum. So instead I would challenge you to prove to me without a doubt that the above scenario is false, (and while you are at it please include the proof of OBEs Reincarnation, spirit guides, aliens and the astral dimension)I would like to remind you that in the real world you are innocent until proven guilty. Not guilty till proven innocent.As far as I know exact science is limited. History books are often written by the ones who won the war, and very subjective, and I can only say like the old lady said to the atheist who told her the creation never happened "oh really so tell me young man WAS YOU THERE"!!Proof and science and I might add History really is subjective and limited to the knowledge at hand. The methods and the books, and lets face it none of us WAS THERE.  

Anyway for the sake of it I will do some research and ask a few scholars that I am in contact with and will get back to that.

Another thought for you to reflect on Robert It seemed very obvious to me and you indicated that when you wrote Astral Dynamics you purposfully stayed away from termenology that indicated eastern connections, and that helped me greatly. I am a product of my faith and it helped me. Your book was very helpful to me . I could have assumed that there was a conspiracy there. That you were hiding your real beliefs true connection and were sugarcoating them so to speak, in an effort to lead me astray!! I chose to believe you were trying to lovingly speak my language and translate and help me. Is it possible that you might be the one who has a negative blockage against Christianity and the Bible, and Christians in general so you automaticly get on the defence at the mention of our faith and thereby fails to include Christians as equal, seekers of the truth. I understand that people get this attitude (if someone has it) and maybe it is collectivly as Christians our own fault. But try to come over on my side and help me prove my point. How could it have happened? How could the Bible be true how could Jesus have existed. Is my assumptions even a possibility. I am not afraid to ask questions and challenge my accumulated lifeexperience, are you. That question goes for all of you  I guess. Where is your loyalty to the truth or to what you have chosen as YOUR TRUTH, I believe our loyalty should not be given to an Idea a group, a church or a forum or a person .It should be to the TRUTH!!

regards Mustardseed

Hello all, I'm new here, but I'm just going to jump in swinging anyway.[:)]

Robert,

quote:

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I say again, there is 'no' historical proof to support what is in the bible. The only thing that supports the bible is the bible itself. This is fact, provable, etc....My earlier post was to throw light upon the fact that nothing in the bible can be historically or scientifically supported; not one shred of it

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To say that there is no archaelogical evidence for anything in the Bible is rather ignorant, to say the least.  I assume that when one states that, that they are talking of such things as the recent "James" ossuary and the "Shroud of Turin."  As far as I know, there is no final concensus on either of those items, and although that doesn't make them true, it doesn't make them fakes either.

However, there have been many more finds that validate events, dates, people and places in the Bible.  Perhaps you can provide this "proof" that there is no evidence, maybe back up a claim or two, and we'll go from there.

Have you ever actually objectively studied the Bible or Christianity?

And I think MustardSeed has a great point: nothing you talk about in here - OBE, astral projection, etc., can be proven and you are essentially saying that one must just have faith and believe that what you are saying is true - something you blast Christianity for doing.  At least be consistent in your arguments.

quote:

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I say that the real truth in the bible is written between the lines, and that no matter what religion one follows, all are looking in the same direction and aspiring to the same goals.

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Please tell me you are not saying that all religions are essentially the same and lead to "God," or whatever spiritual finality there may be.  Someone who believes that truly hasn't thought about what they believe.

quote:

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To say that there is no archaelogical evidence for anything in the Bible is rather ignorant, to say the least. I assume that when one states that, that they are talking of such things as the recent "James" ossuary and the "Shroud of Turin." As far as I know, there is no final concensus on either of those items, and although that doesn't make them true, it doesn't make them fakes either.

---

I haven't heard about the "James Ossuary" but the Shroud of Turin is surrounded by controversy. If you've seen any Discovery Channel program about it, you'd know there are many problems with the idea that it was placed over Jesus at his death. First of all, it has never been proven that Jesus even died that way! But supposing that he did, the Shroud isn't in the right proportions and has detail that is more like that of a work of art than an actual blood-stained cloth. When the fabric was dated using carbon-14, the dates didn't come anywhere near those of when Jesus supposively died, but now people are arguing that this was caused by being in the close proximity of extreme heat, but there is no evidence to support this, either. Then to top it off.. the Discovery Channel hired someone to recreate the cloth, and they made one that looked exactly like it in a matter of days that even showed signs of great age.


Astral projection, reincarnation, etc., have nothing to due with the topic, beacuse those ideas are not being shoved down everyones throats as Allanon is trying to do with the Bible! Most people here believe in those types of things simply because this forum is based on those sorts of things. Whether or not you believe in those types of things depends on your own personal experiences. The Bible asks you to follow it blindly and if you get any coincidental result, it's because it's working. The things told about astral projection are much more detailed and obviously not coincidence, and millions of people have reported out-of-body experiences.

If you're Christian and you come across a lot of money, it's because of God, and if you go bankrupt, it's because God is planning something for you. Anybody else, and those things would just be taken at face value.

Of course, you can get such results 'artificially' with magic if you believe in such a thing, and Christianity can fall within the same category if you believe in the Bible strongly enough.

However, as has been stated before, the Bible is a work of fiction as far as anyone can tell, and not even personal experiences can determine for you whether or not those things really happened, and if they did, God was actually the cause of them.

the bible, as with any piece of information should never be taken as either true or false.

there may be a great deal of very dodgy dogma in the bible, but there is quite possibly a quantity of value to be found.

something about throwing away dripping babies springs to mind.

Wasn't the bible a conglomeration of letters guys had written back and forth until Constantine (or whoever) consolidated them into 'books'?

Whatever, My opinion on the subject is fairly complex but since nobody really cares about my opinion anyway (LOL!) I'll make it really short. True, a man named Jesus robably did walk the Earth and spread 'the word' and was probably even crucified. Proof of that doesn't need to exist really. Proof that he was THE MESSIAH would be more interesting to me. An old shroud that's been debated and a few scrolls mean nothing to me.

The whole arguement is null to begin with IMO, because even if Jesus lived and was the messiah, the roman catholic religion has completely bastardized the entire meaning of what his life was supposed to stand for. Even the bible tells us that the age in which we supposedly live (Laeodician?) is the age where the very pope betrays the church....as if that hadn't happened already a dozen times at least. (start with the inquisition if you like and work from there)

I do not hate god (I say 'spirit'), nor do I dislike the idea of Jesus. I just don't worship those ideas nor do I partake in idolotry (you figure that one out). I have seen what I need to see for myself because I have worked to that goal (with Robert's help by the way) through improving myself spiritually and SEEKING. I still seek, because we can't possibly know all the answers, not even someone as holy and enshrined as Allanon can claim to -know- it all.

What I have learned is that spirit to me is not necessarily what god is to you, and that is as it should be because we ARE different. If the xtian fundies as well as the ones that bash them would take the time out of their battle long enough to seek the truths for themselves I think we could evolve as a race, both physically and more importantly, spiritually.

Bleh. That's as short as I can make it and still resemble a point....ROFL!

Peace ppl!

Quote
Astral projection, reincarnation, etc., have nothing to due with the topic, beacuse those ideas are not being shoved down everyones throats as Allanon is trying to do with the Bible!

(answer)
Well My friend I suggest you read what in on your screen . It has everything to do with the topic, as long as the topic is "Attention Astral projecters ...Satan deceives you"

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(Qoute)
Most people here believe in those types of things simply because this forum is based on those sorts of things.

(answer)
Huh! Duh hmm how was that again ??????
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(Qoute)
The Bible asks you to follow it blindly.
(Answer)

(answer)
If the picture you have of following it blindly is some blinded guy fumbeling around being lead astray into agression and bitterness and hate by a decietful Jesus I would venture to say you are wrong. However it does ask you to accept by faith some absolute truths. That God is way smarter than we are , that He is in control, that Jesus lived for love, and died for love and that everyone can have that love if accepting him and by showing the same love to others. It says we are to follow after love to live peaceably and do unto others what we would have them do unto us. It says nothing about astral projection however.
     -----------------------------------
(Qoute)
The things told about astral projection are much more detailed and obviously not coincidence, and millions of people have reported out-of-body experiences
(Answer)
Please refrain from words like that , obviously maybe to you and me maybe( I do have frequent OBEs)but obviously not obvious to a great deal of other people, and whoever said it was a coincidence anyway. The thread reads "....Satan decieves you" indicating that Allanon believes it to be a carefully thought out plan and no coincidence

   ------------------------------------------
(Qoute)
If you're Christian and you come across a lot of money, it's because of God, and if you go bankrupt, it's because God is planning something for you. Anybody else, and those things would just be taken at face value.
(Answer)
I am sorry but you are way out in left field here and your ignorance of what the Bible really says and teaches is all too evident. I would suggest you refrain from telling us what the Bible says unless you can qoute it with referance, we who are Christians know it a tad better than you do. On the contrary I would say that what you say the Bible teaches sounds much more like Karma Hinduinsm and Fatalism. The Bible teaches you that all things WORK TOGETHER for good to them that love God. There is a difference
    --------------------------------------------

(Qoute)
However, as has been stated before, the Bible is a work of fiction as far as anyone can tell.
(Answer)
At least that is what YOU have chosen to BELIEVE. However there are a lot of people who would beg do differ with you. It seems to me that you argue about things you yourself really know very little about, using arguments that are pretty silly , really , (have you talked to "anyone" about it). You seem to stubbornly cling to your limited 15 year teen age opinion. A opinion you have chosen from the writings of others, and OBVIOUSLY not from a great wealth of life experiences. You see, that is why we are taught that people who are your age should not be in any leadership. That is why mostly elders, and not young "novices" as they are called(with a few exeptions like Timothy)are in any position in Christianity at large.  

This is not meant as a insult but I know that this could greatly inflame your teenage ego, but this is a forum of teens and adults and I am not your Dad, and will have to treat you like an adult, so if you want to argue religion Christianity OBEs etc. Consentrate, think about what you write and use your mind, and if you want to challenge any claim the Bible makes please include the statement you disagree with.

Regards Mustardseed

recent "James" ossuary and the "Shroud of Turin." As far as I know, there is no final concensus on either of those items,

The ossuary is still up for debate apparently. One group has called it a fake(the IAA), while another claims it's authentic. The shroud of turin is a more interesting story.

http://www.shroudforum.com/

But those are two relics that are under constant scrutiny(since it would prove two very important things). There are other relics(incriptions of pilate, coins. As well as the tomb of one of the Jewish religious leaders that wanted Jesus dead). Also, fairly recently they found some sort of inscription mention King David. There are more, but you'll have to go to a biblical archeaology site.

I have followed biblical archaeology for over 10 years (probably closer to 12)and have always been fascinated with archaeology in general. I've been a subsciber to Biblical Archaeological Review, a magazine dedicated to finding physical proof of biblical events, places and people. There is massive amounts of archaeological evidence to support the bible but like mainstream archaeology, it can be subjective and debatable. Conclusions can be drawn from very convincing arguements, both pro and con, to justify a theory. I've read accounts of one archaeologist who, after seeing Jesus in front of him on a dig site, claims to have located the exact site of Christ's crucifiction. The siting of Jesus was witnessed by a local official visiting the archaeologist. Carbon dating is too inaccurate to prove anything, true or false. It only gives a very general ballpark figure. IMO, to simply dismiss the bible as fiction makes no sense.

Some good responses.

I think a point to add in here is that biblical archaeology does not prove that Christianity is correct or prove that the Bible was inspired by God.  What it does do is give support for the factual, historical events, places, people, etc., that appear in the Bible.  This in turn does add some credibility to the truth of the Bible as a whole.

Also, as to the Bible asking people to follow it blindly is completely untrue.  The Bible tells us to search with all our hearts, to study the scriptures thoroughly.  Christianity is a religion of the intellect as well as the heart.  Of course there are some issues that we can't understand or comprehend, and it takes faith to believe, but that is all part of trying to understand the infinite and supernatural, and that doesn't make Christianity false.

Another point is that if what Christianty claims is true, then its claims demand attention and investigation.  It is the height of ignorance to simply dismiss these claims without serious investigation, espescially if one is to just take someone else's word for it.

This post by Allanon has been deleted as it was one of 6 exact replicas of a post originally submitted by Chill in topic -
Be warned: The spirit-war is well underway...

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6894&whichpage=2

Regards
James.

Oh boy! Great post Robert, VERY interesting.....

Right - no evidence for Christ etc:

a) I seem to remember a post of yours, a long time ago, when you mentioned an OBE in which you met Jesus, and also (perhaps another) in which you saw the scene of the resurrection in the tomb, or something, when Mary first saw Jesus after he arose. Have you changed you mind about this, or are you now saying that this was all just the creation of man??!?

b) I would like to site an usual piece of evidence. Namely Laurence Gardner's work (for which, amusingly enough, he was knighted.....lol I'm sure that it was just for his wonderful research though, nothing else [;)]) - his book "Bloodline Of The Holy Grail" in which he traces the lineage of all the kings and queens of europe and, to his suprise, finds that they all seem to point to a single couple  at....wait for it.....the time of Christ. This is, obviously, a continuation of the Royal line of David, which came through Adraham and Moses - arguable an ex-Pharoe of Ancient Egypt, the line of which may well go back to Enoch and Adam.
But anyway, further evidence he investigates are orders from Rome in the centuries after Christ to hunt down and kill the descendants of Jesus, who are seen as a threat to Caeser.
While I have not read this particular book, I have read "Lost Secrets of the Sacred Ark", in which he argues (fully backed with science) that the Ark was an enormous electro-static generator and then some, used for the production of white powder gold. Its a very good, scholarly work, and I see no reason to think that his other books are dissimilar.
website: http://graal.co.uk/ - specifically http://graal.co.uk/bloodline.html (oh yeah the section on "white powder gold" is worth looking into too....hehe I just cant help myself LOL)

OK I should be in bed, just got back from holiday, luckily I slept most of the journey heh pure skill. If I think of anything else I'll post again.

adios
Rob

Xothen, (and anyone else reading) I just wanted you to know that I in no way wish to dissuade you from your faith. For you, that's fine if you choose that path.  For me, it's not fine, I need more and I found more.

My opinion: Faith is just an excuse to not seek more, not find spirit in your own perception and take the message of its existance to heart. There's much more to learn than what is parabalized in the bible. The message is so much larger than that....but I can't tell you what I perceive the message to be, you have to go get it yourself.

The importance of the message as well as spirit's intention for our very purpose is completely lost in the arguements about the validity of the bible or the hypocricy and corruption of the organized religion. These things are just SO unimportant in comparison.

In my experience and perception, one purpose for the ability to advance spiritually is to get that message in 'person', not take it for granted that some book is right or some guy in a funny hat is worthy of delivering that message on my behalf. If I were spirit, (shhh!) I'd be insulted by the fact that more don't make the effort to seek rather than wait till they die to find out the truth for themselves.  Astral projection is ONE step along the way. It's not a device of the devil, it's a tool provided by spirit to move along your path, it's not the end of the path by any means....and neither is the bible.

: end opinion

Nothing....Umm...did what I wanted to do....just ignore this [:D]

James.

G'day Folks!

First, my previous post was not directed at anyone in particular, especially not at Mustardseed, who in my humble opinion is making a lot of sense. It was directed at closed-minded monotheistic fundamentalists who's sole argument comes from their version of bible text interpretation.

Forgive me if my post seemed otherwise.  I embrace the sentiments and spiritual roots of all religions.  But I am not very tolerant of dogmatic emotional blackmail.

Religious fundamentalist arguments and statements are generally one-sided and absolute and they leave no room for discussion...eg, 'believe my way or be damned' is a wide theme. They also use a lot of emotional blackmail to intimidate people into believing exactly as they do, eg, threatening eternal hellfire and damnation and soul destruction for non believers, etc. In fact, they give new meaning to the words 'non believer' as believing 'almost the same' as they do is not good enough, as they 'demand' total agreement on all points.

(Note that this type of approach is common to most if not all fundamentalist religions, including non Christian type religions).  

Personal experiential evidence is rarely considered, and everything comes down to bible text interpretation. In fact, recourse to bible text is so deeply ingrained in that side of this arena that empirical knowledge, personal experience and other such recognizable evidence is often swept away if it is thought to disagree with bible text. And anything that is not understood, eg, astral projection, Kundalini, meditation, etc, is immediately labelled as being 'of the devil'.  I find this perplexing as my critics here have very little conception of what these things are and how they relate to the spiritual universe, particularly concerning Kundalini.

Do you know just how 'similar' the world's religious beliefs are?  In fact, did you know that the Koran was loosely based on the old and new testaments, albeit heavily rewritten?
All the world's holy books have 'very' similar themes and ideals. The characters and events are different of course, as they arose in different times and cultures, but their messages are essentially the same.

I say, why can't we rejoice in our similarities, rather than waging perpetual war over minor differences?

My point in writing my earlier post was to throw the validity of the Christian fundamentalist argument (based on biblical text) onto the table, to hopefully stimulate some more open minded discussion. The fundamentalists here have been openly attacking and criticizing everyone else with their absolutes at every turn, so I considered it only fair to examine the source and validity of these absolutes (their evidence) as any good scientist would.

I notice that after my last post, I have been asked to be more open-minded in considering 'possibilities' that some of the bible may be genuine. I agree.  And this is important because this is exactly what I have been trying to do, eg, to stimulate 'open minded' discussion of a wide range of possibilities, which is something that certain Christian fundamentalists have not shown. I am extremely open minded to all these things and try to encourage same in all my discussions on all topics.  In all fairness, I ask everyone participating in this discussion to do the same.

One point concerning archaeological evidence cited in this post, that is claimed to support bible events:  the evidence cited has been gathered by Christian-minded archaeologists who's main purpose (and more importantly, their funding) is aimed at validating bible events as being historically accurate.  Evidence gained in this way is highly biased and thus not internationally acceptable in the actual fields of archaeology and history. You will find this kind of evidence being presented as 'fact' in many bible-oriented magazines, books and papers.  But these are the only places where such things (Christian propaganda) are accepted.

This single-minded approach to this kind of research is very unscientific, and results are therefore subjective and dubious to say the least.  This is like funding a large chemical company to do a study on adverse long-term effects of their own major products.  The results of any such study will obviously be flawed as it would be heavily biased in their favour.

In an earlier post a scientist is said to have had a vision of Jesus, showing him the exact site of the crucifixion.  This is taken as 'proof' to validate that scientist's findings.  Now, apart from the highly subjective and personal nature of such evidence, 'how' this scientist reported that 'vision' is important. If, for example, he stated that he had a psychic impression, or a clairvoyant vision, or an astral projection, or a materialization, or a meditation experience, his evidence would have immediately been classed as 'of the devil' and discarded.

You see, all the above things are very similar, but how one describes such a phenomenon is important because certain terms contain 'baggage'.  For example, if a Christian tells his church that he was 'taken up' by the 'holy spirit' to heaven where he had a 'vision of Jesus', this is accepted as a wonderful holy experience by that church. But if the same person rephrases this and says he had an astral projection where an invisible spirit force took him to the akashic records where he had a vision of Jesus, it is discarded as being 'of the devil'. Its all in 'how' one says this kind of thing.  My point here is that regardless of one's religious or cultural roots, or one's choice of words, exactly the same thing is being discussed.

Another example relating to the above is my 'astral knights' experience, given in Astral Dynamics. In this OBE I saw a large cloud appear in my home, full of flickering lightening as if it were on fire, and heard what sounded like the voice of God booming from this burning cloud. This is very much like what Moses experienced when he saw a burning bush and heard the voice of God coming from the fire.  If you compare my contemporary experience to the bible experience, it is quite possible that Moses was having an OBE and saw and heard what I did, eg, a burning bush type of experience.

What we need to do to make progress in this arena is to do more such comparisons.


More food for thought......


Take care, Robert.

Ahem....

3) History is made in the texts that record their events. To say that there is no "evidence" is then almost ludicrous - when you remember that there are many thousands of texts which record the life of Jesus. Admittedly, they dont agree everywhere, but you can hardly fault them for that. It is therefore misleading to say that the Bible only verifies itself - forgetting the many other texts not included, this is the way with much of history - the records are indeed all we have to go by. Texts are what create history, they constitute evidence in themselves.

4) Continuing from this, the "physical evidence" you speak of, I assume, is directed at the lack of errr lets see, physical objects. This is, however, again misleading. Jesus was but one man, with a handful of close followers. His main works were not like emperors who built huge palaces, or the pharaohs who build pyramids. They were in the message he brought, in the work he did with his own healing hands and the suffering he received. And, of course there are no massive edifices erected to him in his time - some of the people on the street loved him, but those in power either hated him or were not particularly interested. Why should they support him? So! What else is there? What would you really expect to find, if we are talking of "evidence" here?
And yet, we do have indications of his life, thanks to his disciples. I've just come back from holiday in Turkey - where I visited the temple of St John the Divine, and the Church of the Martyrdom of St Philip. The latter was stoned to death in AD 80 or abouts, with his son, by the locals; the former is the final resting place of St John. The churches were build in the 3rd and 4th centuries AD - which is hardly surprising, as it took a while before Christianity took hold. That is, you cant really expect them to kill a man then build a huge Byzantine church to him the next day......so are you seriously suggesting that these people were totally made up? Why?? And, why then would erect churches to honour them in totally random spots in turkey, of all places?? It just doesn't make sense. It indicates that these people were real, did real things, which they believed totally in, are received punishment from the heathens for it...
The church of St John would have been a magnificent structure when it was in use (both are ruins today), and had some very interesting inscriptions and carvings. To me, they indicate that whoever build the place, knew a lot that we dont. (If there's anyone who would be interested in seeing some piccies, let me know - there is what looks to be a sigil or two, and a very odd cross which inscriptions over it)

[:D][:D][:D]

Rob

Of course, none of this really means I believe what I say, but any discussion would still be valuable!

Dear Inguma,

Thanks for the exposition. I concur. I am also pleased someone said this has every bearing on AP. Suppose we call the bible "fooey"? We might as well call Astral Projection "hallucination". Right?

Anyway, I'd really love to hear more detail about the view that the bible has little evidence supporting it. I understand this view is widely held and I see why people contend there is no "hard" evidence. However, I don't see why anyone would object to all the "loose" evidence that piles up so rapdily.

To me, the book is either a grand conspiracy (of biblical proportions), or it quite probably contains a few actual events and people.

Don't you think?

[:)]

Love,

Luci

Greetings Inguma,

quote:

---

Originally posted by Inguma

Ahem....

3) History is made in the texts that record their events. To say that there is no "evidence" is then almost ludicrous - when you remember that there are many thousands of texts which record the life of Jesus. Admittedly, they dont agree everywhere, but you can hardly fault them for that. It is therefore misleading to say that the Bible only verifies itself - forgetting the many other texts not included, this is the way with much of history - the records are indeed all we have to go by. Texts are what create history, they constitute evidence in themselves.

---

I think a very important consideration here is that it seems likely that no one actually documented the words of Jesus at the time, and if they were documented no such documentary evidence exists today. There is of course the esoteric/occult records of the Essenes (which Jesus is widely thought to belong to along with his parents and disciples) and more recently the Nag Hammadi scrolls. The bible then is mostly based upon hearsay,and accordingly as evidence it would be rejected in a court of law. Note, the Nag Hammadi Gnostic scrolls were almost certainly hidden in order to prevent almost certain destruction by the emergent christian orthodox church which was seeking to impose its own powers as it has over the centuries.

For the most part however the modern bible (new testament) was entirely written by man as an interpretation of the happenings of the time. As with all interpretations, the interpreter will sub-consciously add his or her bias to it, as well as glamourising things etc.. I think this is how alot of the bible was written when it ended up in Greek. It is also like the party game "chinese whispers" were someone whispers a phrase to the next person, who whispers it to the next and so on, and by the time the phrase arrives back to the original person it has little or no similarity to the original. On top of this, the bible has been translated and retranslated, interpreted and re-interpreted so many times, even the original interpretation was probably largely lost over time. Add to that the fact it became the main instrument of the church for controlling its congregations and was re-written accordingly. It all adds up to the fact that rather being the word of God, it is the word of an untold number of different races, ambitions and aspirations, and has degenerated to not much more than a work of fiction which is called fact, or specifically the word of God.

One of the most significant tamperings was around the sixth century when the church decided to remove reincarnation from its teachings and replaced it with the concepts of "heaven" and "hell". This was of course to enable them to control the congregations much more effectively with the threat of damnation for aneternity in "hell" if they did not believe and follow the official church doctrines. Another significant position is by referring to Jesus as the son of God, when in fact the original teachings, notably the word of John in the Essenes, Rosicrucian etc. records clearly teaches the truth that we are all sons and daughters of God.

It is a pity how people can be so oblivious to all of these facts.

With best regards,

Adrian.

G'day Folks!

I did not mean to make everyone so defensive.  Please reread my last post. I took 'that' position simply because I am so tired of christian fundamentalists trying to ram their version of truth down the throats of everyone in this forum. I am most definitely not attacking christianity in general. But I notice that the fundamentalists have been quiet lately.

There is no loose or circumstantial evidence to support anything in the bible, not even a 'little'. There is not one single shred of factual evidence, not one. The earliest archeological evidence available today are a few third century fingernail-size fragments of parchment that scientists 'think' may have come from an early hand written bible testament.  The original bible, which is a fair bit different from the one we have today, is on record as having appeared during or after the great meeting called by roman emperor Constantine. He forced the formation of the christian church in an attempt to stabilize his empire.  (One did not argue with the roman emperor.) During the formation of christianity, elements of many beliefs and religions were taken into the heart of christianity (it appeared to be a very political affair), including elements of Mithrism (sun worship), and it is from this that we get the modern Eucharist included in christian worship.  

The 'thousands' of texts that have been vaguely cited as 'loosely' supporting the validity of the bible must be contemporary texts, not historical texts. These are based on blind dogmatic belief in the validity of the bible, not on any actual proof. They should thus be considered inadmissable as proof in this discussion.

Please note that my statements in these posts are not original. A lot of scholarly books have been written on these matters. One that springs to mind is called 'The Rock of Truth'. I forget the author's name (he was an early spiritualist), but it was back in the 50's or 60's I think. I remember the author saying that he sent copies of his manuscript to the heads of all the christian churches he could find, stating that if they could refute anything in his book he would retract it. A year went by and he had no replies, so he published.  The book was immediately banned by most christian churches, even though they could not refute anything in the book.

If you want to find the truth in these matters, study third century religion, which is where everything started. In particular, get the book 'Origen', which is available in most libraries. As I said before, the 'gnostic' gospels are also worth reading. The gnostic gospels also appeared around the same time as the bible, I think, but these were suppressed for many years by the church because they promoted freedom of thought and other such modern stuff.

As for providing proof that there is no evidence, this is ludicrous. It is up to anyone who wants to dispute my statements to offer actual proof to the contrary. The proof you seek, but probably don't want to find, is freely available should you choose to do a little research.

We are all made to believe that the events in the bible are true, because heads of churches and governments want this, as this fosters stability in the population. But there is still no actual proof.

If anyone wants to start refuting things, how about we start in the beginning, where emperor Constantine formed the christian church, and where the bible was put together. So, is anyone saying this did not happen? Is anyone familiar with these events?

You must admit, I hope, that this current change of thread direction has a little more hope of going somewhere than the discussion that started all this. And if my words disturb you, then I have succeeded in making you think.

In closing, I think it is clear that christian belief, and belief in the bible, depends largely upon faith. This is the same with all religions.

Take care, Robert.

The book Robert refers to "The Rock of Truth" was written by  
Arthur Findlay.


(//forums/uploaded/Nick/Rock%20of%20Truth.jpg)




This website has additional information, including how to order the book:

http://www.spirittales.com/spirittales025.htm



Very best,

Here's another link that people may want to explore regarding the book The Rock of Truth. This website also lists other books by the same author (Athur Findlay) , as well as some other interesting books and authors also. You may want to have a look:

http://www.psychic-press.sageweb.co.uk/



Very best,

Greetings Nick,

Thanks very much indeed for this link.

The book is out of print on Amazon.com, but is available from Amazon.co.uk on a 4-6 week lead time.

Here is the information from the website:

To quote Arthur Findlay' "I am one of the first to admire the unselfish social work of many clergy in the slums and elsewhere, but these activities are quite apart from those with which this book is concerned. Many others besides the clergy of the orthodox faith are engaged in missions to the poor. It is not the social side of the Church's work that this book attacks, but orthodox Christianity as preached from nearly every pulpit in Christendom, and it is this which affects the great majority of the people." "If I were not able to put before the people a better religion, a truer religion, and a greater religion for them to observe and follow, I would not trouble to attack what is false, as it gives a certain measure of comfort to many. Spiritualism, however, is an infinitely greater help to us in our lives and also in our deaths than the old faiths which satisfied our ancestors. My wish is not to knock down and destroy. My aim is to build a nobler edifice, but before this edifice can be built decaying rubbish about its foundations must be cleared away." So says Arthur Findlay in his masterly "The rock of truth." Subtitled "Spiritualism, the coming World Religion," the author examines such far reaching points as "What did Jesus really teach?" "Spiritualism, and what it stands for," "The Philosophy of Spiritualism" and all important points. This superb book investigates - and indicts - orthodoxy, and can rightly be regarded as a classic in the annals of psychic literature

Incidentally, Arthur Findlay wrote another famous book entitled "On the Edge of the Etheric".

With best regards,

Adrian.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adrian
Another significant position is by referring to Jesus as the son of God, when in fact the original teachings, notably the word of John in the Essenes, Rosicrucian etc. records clearly teaches the truth that we are all sons and daughters of God.

---

When you say 'teaches the truth', do you mean that you, Adrian, believe that we are all sons and daughters of God ? Fair enough. But that's just playing with words. If Jesus is the son of God, and not just a particularly enlightened one (or crazy one), then we would need to prove his resurrection. Although that proof might not imply that he was indeed the son of God, it might become a compelling case for Christianity. Unfortunately, I don't think that a proof has been provided that the historical Jesus rose from the dead. Hence, he might not be the son of God, but just one among all sons and daughters of God. If God exists.

Still, the Gospels might provide some interesting clues on the nature of Evil. Now I will probably lose you, as the word 'Evil', or worst 'Satan', are really not part of any New Age Dogma vocabulary. Let me explain for the benefits of others.

From the earliest days of Christianity, the Gospels' resemblance to certain myths has been used as an argument against Christian faith.

When you look at it, the death and resurrection of Jesus does not seem to differ in any significant way from the myths of Adonis, Attis, Dionysus, Osiris, etc.

« Beginning with some violent cosmic or social crisis, and culminating in the suffering of a mysterious victim (often at the hands of a furious mob), all these myths conclude with the triumphal return of the sufferer, thereby revealed as a divinity. » (René Girard).

There is an a theory though by René Girard according to which the world's myths do not reveal a way to interpret the Gospels, but exactly the reverse: the Gospels reveal to us the way to interpret myth. Of course, the Gospels - the written words - are used here, for what they are : a story.

That theory is worth while because you can easily take the 'religious aspect' out of it, and as an atheist, or muslim, or buddhist, you can use that theory to explain violence, to understand the nature of Evil, to understand the true nature of Satan.

Yes, I can easily live with the fact that Satan exists, that 'Evil' exists, without having the need for a God to exist. Satan might not be a 'being'. There's a possibilty that God exists, without Satan existing as a 'being', or that God exists WITH the existence of Satan as a being, mind you. Nowadays, I would say that I am an atheist, ex-strugling-catholic who believes in the existence of 'Evil'. Maybe I should use a better word, as this is a provoking one.

Now back to the Gospels : Peter spectacularly illustrates the mimetic contagion around Jesus - which will lead to his crucifixion. When surrounded by people hostile to Jesus, he imitates their hostility. Maybe hoes this out of fear for himself. In any case, he does not stand up for Jesus. He obeys the same mimetic force, ultimately, as Pilate and Herod. Even the thieves crucified with Jesus obey that force and feel compelled to join the crowd. The theory is that the Gospels do not seek to stigmatize Peter, or the thieves, or the crowd as a whole, or the Jews as a people, but to reveal the enormous power of mimetic contagion, a revelation valid for the entire chain of murders depicted in the OT and in myths.

The Greek skandalondesignates an unavoidable obstacle that somehow becomes more attractive (as well as repulsive) each time we stumble against it. The first time Jesus predicts his violent death (Matthew 16:21-23), his resignation appalls Peter, who tries to instill some worldly ambition in Jesus. Sensing the danger, Jesus vehemently interrupts Peter: "Get behind me, Satan, you are a skandalon to me." Skandalon ? Satan ? WHAT ?

Satan is skandalon personified, as Jesus makes explicit in his rebuke of Peter.

Since most human beings do not follow Jesus, scandals must happen (Matthew 18:7). Mimetic desire, rivalry, envy, jalousy. I think we all understand the terrifying power of escalating mimetic desire. And yet, though many societies perished, new societies managed to be born, and most established societies today manage to find ways to survive or regenerate. Some counterforce must be at work, not powerful enough to terminate 'scandals' once and for all, and yet sufficient to moderate their impact and keep them under some control.

This counterforce is, René Girard believes, the mythological scapegoat, the sacrificial victim of myth : « When scandals proliferate, human beings become so obsessed with their rivals that they lose sight of the objects for which they compete and begin to focus angrily on one another. As the borrowing of the model's object shifts to the borrowing of the rival's hatred, acquisitive mimesis turns into a mimesis of antagonists. More and more individuals polarize against fewer and fewer enemies until, in the end, only one is left. Because everyone believes in the guilt of the last victim, they all turn against him-and since that victim is now isolated and helpless, they can do so with no danger of retaliation. As a result, no enemy remains for anybody in the community. Scandals evaporate and peace returns - for a while. »

Society's preservation against the unlimited violence of scandals lies in the mimetic coalition against the single victim and its ensuing limited violence. Or a group of people - still victims. This group is satanized, by people.

Back to the Gospels : « The violent death of Jesus is, humanly speaking, an example of this strange process. Before it begins, Jesus warns his disciples (and especially Peter) that they will be "scandalized" by him (Mark 14:27). »

« In preventing a riot and dispersing a crowd, the Crucifixion is an example of cathartic victimization. A fascinating detail in the gospel makes clear the cathartic effects of the mimetic murder, and allows us to distinguish them from the Crucifixion's Christian effects. At the end of his Passion account, Luke writes, "And Herod and Pilate became friends with each other that very day, for before this they had been at enmity with each other" (23:12). This reconciliation outwardly resembles Christian communion-since it originates in Jesus' death, and yet it has nothing to do with it. It is a cathartic effect rooted in the mimetic contagion. »

« Jesus' persecutors do not realize that they influence one another mimetically. Their ignorance does not cancel their responsibility, but it does lessen it: "Father, forgive them," Jesus cries, "for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34). » There is a parallel statement in Acts 3:17 : « Peter ascribes to ignorance the behavior of the crowd and its leaders. His personal experience of the mimetic compulsion that possesses crowds prevents him from regarding himself immune to the violent contagion of victimization. »

The role of Satan, the personification of scandals, helps us to understand the mimetic conception of the Gospels. To the question How can Satan cast out Satan? (Mark 3:23), the answer is an unanimous victimization. Or 'satanization' - from the point of view of the 'crowd', that it is a confusing term, sorry.

Bottom line, on the one hand, Satan is the instigator of scandal, the force that disintegrates communities : he is rivalry. on the other hand, he is the resolution of scandal in unanimous victimization. This trick of last resort enables the 'prince of this world' to remain in power, so to speak. Being both a principle of disorder and a principle of order, Satan is truly divided against himself.

René giard says that : « even if they are not accused of any crime, mythical victims are still supposed to die for a good cause, and their innocence makes their deaths no less legitimate. In the Vedic myth of Purusha, for instance, no wrongdoing is mentioned-but the tearing apart of the victim is nonetheless a holy deed. The pieces of Purusha's body are needed to create the three great castes, the mainstay of Indian society. In myth, violent death is always justified. »

But the conclusion in the light of the Gospels can be that myths are the voice of communities that unanimously surrender to the mimetic contagion of victimization.

Now here is the big leap taken by René Girard : « We hear nowadays that, behind every text and every event, there are an infinite number of interpretations, all more or less equivalent. Mimetic victimization makes the absurdity of this view manifest. Only two possible reactions to the mimetic contagion exist, and they make an enormous difference. Either we surrender and join the persecuting crowd, or we resist and stand alone. The first way is the unanimous self-deception we call mythology. The second way is the road to the truth followed by the Bible. »

« Instead of blaming victimization on the victims, the Gospels blame it on the victimizers. What the myths systematically hide, the Bible reveals. This difference is not merely "moralistic" (as Nietzsche believed) or a matter of subjective choice; it is a question of truth. When the Bible and the Gospels say that the victims should have been spared, they do not merely "take pity" on them. They puncture the illusion of the unanimous victimization that foundational myths use as a crisis-solving and reordering device of human communities. »

(...) « So too the preponderance of "strangers": in all isolated groups, outsiders arouse a curiosity that may quickly turn to hostility during a panic. Mimetic violence is essentially disoriented; deprived of valid causes, it selects its victims according to minuscule signs and pseudo-causes that we may identify as preferential signs of victimization. »

« If unanimous victimization reconciles and reorders societies in direct proportion to its concealment, then it must lose its effectiveness in direct proportion to its revelation. When the mythical lie is publicly denounced, the polarization of scandals is no longer unanimous and the social catharsis weakens and disappears. Instead of reconciling the community, the victimization must intensify divisions and dissensions. »

There comes in another problem : anti-americanism. The only way, I think, that we can stop the violence, is to constantly remind ourselves that what goes in the world, instigated by American 'authorities' (for example) is not in the name of All Americans. Still, Americans should vote for a non-violent government. With violence, you can only exacerbate a problem. Because violence (hatred) is mimetic. We just can't kill one person (say : Saddham Hussein, Ben Laden, or even all the ramifications of an organized group of terrorists - if that would be possible, or declare war on a country because a group of people there 'protects' a terrorist), it just won't resolve the problem, because there will be an even stronger feeling of anti-americanism. Unless everyone at once all over the world understand mimetism, and the mechanism of the scapegoat, that is the all-against-one (one person, one group, one ethnicity, one religious group), we are just heading for a worldwide disaster.

René girard says : « Instead of concluding with the reassuring harmony of myths, the New Testament opens up apocalyptic perspectives, in the synoptic Gospels equally with the Book of Revelation. To reach "the peace that surpasseth all understanding," humanity must give up its old, partial peace founded on victimization, and a great deal of turmoil can be expected. The apocalyptic dimension is not an alien element that should be purged from the New Testament in order to "improve" Christianity, it is an integral part of revelation. »

About the Holy Spirit : « the Gospel of John calls the Spirit of God the Paraclete, a Greek word that simply means the lawyer for the defense, the defender of the accused before a tribunal. The Paraclete is, among other things, the counterpart of the Accuser. »

I don't know if any of this makes sense to any of you, but it sure does to me.

So there's one postive thing in the Gospel for me.

When I was a little kid I used to watch Zefirelli's movie on Jesus, 'religiously'. And it striked me time and again how EVERYONE suddenly 'ganged' up on Jesus, I just could not understand. Yet.. I would remember one instance when I was a passive-observer-turned-into-an-active-agressor when I was within a gang of other kids, so that in one instance I participated in the sexual humiliation of a little girl, and in another instance in the physical assault of a mentally handicapped boy (throwing rocks at him, if you can believe this !).

Also later on in my my life, I would be apphalled on how all of a sudden, some 'political' or 'public' figures would be bashed on, after some minor scandal. How, all of a sudden, a healthy criticism (founded criticism) of a person could so easily turn into a character assassination. Similarly, a group could lash upon a minority of people who would have expressed opposing views, or criticism, and sometimes the initiators of the 'scandal' (the critics) would turn into scapegoats themselves. It's just mimetic, if you see what I mean.

Hey!!

OK first

quote:

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I did not mean to make everyone so defensive.

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LOL I do hope this was not aimed at me!! heh no siree. Anything which looks like that can be safely called "baiting"! Besides, I would be quite happy to believe all the things said, as I "love" to see orthodoxy crumble beneath sandled feet.

Hmm so, the earliest texts it has been stated that we possess are a "a few third century fingernail-size fragments of parchment that scientists 'think' may have come from an early hand written bible testament". And yet, after doing only a minimal amount of research I have read about:
The "Bodmer II Papyrii" which contains most of John, cardon dated to 150-200 A.D.
"John Rylands Manuscript" - part of John, from AD 130
"Chester Beatty Papyri" - Some of the old testament (Genesis, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Esther, and Ecclesiastes); and significant portions of the new testament; and Enoch.
Should these texts be real, and there is no huge church "conspiracy" to date them to an earlier point than they truly were, or to simply make up their existance, then I think that - considering the first church councils were 3rd century - this firmly invalidates your arguments.

Adrian! I agree with much of what you say, and would love to hear more about how you know evidence of reincarnation was stripped from the churches teachings. Presumably this comes from versions of the gospels from before C6?

quote:

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I think a very important consideration here is that it seems likely that no one actually documented the words of Jesus at the time

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Its not "at the time", but the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas (from the Oxyrhynchus Papyri and the Nag Hammadi find...not sure date, no time left to research, gotta go eat.....mmmm) provides many quotes attributed to Jesus - some of which are in the bible, some of which are slightly different from those in the bible, but half of which are nowhere else.

[;)]

Rob

Oh this seems to be a hot issue in many minds - why would otherwise be there so many posts?

This website explores the notion that the Church changed the bible when it came to reincarnation:

http://www.comparativereligion.com/reincarnation3.html

quote:

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Originally posted by Adrian

Greetings Nick,

Thanks very much indeed for this link.

The book is out of print on Amazon.com.

---

It ships within 1-2 business days on amazon.com

Here is the link :

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0902036076/qid=1062964365/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-7059966-5724007?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Greetings Chill,

quote:

---

Originally posted by chill

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adrian

Greetings Nick,

Thanks very much indeed for this link.

The book is out of print on Amazon.com.

---

It ships within 1-2 business days on amazon.com

Here is the link :

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0902036076/qid=1062964365/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-7059966-5724007?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

---

I think you will find this refers to the used books.

There is no "add to shopping cart" button available to order it.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Just a question for anyone interested to ask themselves....

Does attacking and attempting to tear down another's religious beliefs or belief system in any way validate your own? If this is how you validate your own beliefs, perhaps you should re-evaluate your own belief system.  If your beliefs are secure in your own mind you shouldn't have a burning desire to destroy others beliefs, prove them wrong, or get all frothy mouthed preaching at them to convert.

If someone suggesting that there isn't any (or enough) physical proof to substantiate your religions' own claims inflames you out of your otherwise calm state, I suggest that you have problems with your own faith in your own belief system, time to center yourself and re-evaluate.

Just a thought....

I am sorry Adrian. I think I owe you a ------ now. Oups, whenever I am having an indigestion (I woke at 4 AM and ate two nasty chocolatine pastries, then went immediately back to bed),  plus when I am 7 days or so after my periods, I have pornographic blurts. How old are you ? If you edit out my pornography, I won't be offended. I am french.

Anyway, yes Spirit_k9, I agree. This will probably prove (apparently, to most parties involved) useless at the end. But you striked a cord there with your comment. I was checking up something on amazon.com yesterday, and there was a suggestion there for me, or a book that was 'featured'..? Its title is : THE CASE FOR FAITH. And it was sooo interesting to read the customers reviews. The book is written by a journalist, his name is Lee Strobel (in english doesn't that sound exactly like Lee is trouble ?), and it is faith in Christianity that is the subject of this book (I thought I should mention that), and as it turns out, it might very well end up being a Case Against faith, since the answers given are so.. stupid. I read the commentaries, mind you, not the book. But I won't order it, from the excerpts given, throughout the reviews. But the commentaries alone are a worth-while read. And it's free to read.

The book asks those questions (and try to provide answers that will help shed the doubts) :

1) If there's a loving God, why does this pain-wracked world groan under so much suffering and evil?
2) If the miracles of God contradict science, then how can any rational person believe that they're true?
3) If God is morally pure, how can he sanction the slaughter of innocent children as the Old Testament says he did?
4) If God cares about the people he created, how could he consign so many of them to an eternity of torture in hell just because they didn't believe the right things about him?
5) If Jesus is the only way to heaven, then what about the millions of people who have never heard of him?
6) If God really created the universe, why does the evidence of science compel so many to conclude that the unguided process of evolution accounts for life?
7) If God is the ultimate overseer of the church, why has it been rife with hypocrisy and brutality throughout the ages?
8) If I'm still plagued by doubts, then is it still possible to be a Christian?

It's tough to be a christian nowadays. I said back up there that I am an atheist nowadays. You just can't lose your faith overnight. Even when some dramatic event takes place. I think that faith is something not unlike a form of mental illness, you just can't shake out of it with sheer reasoning. On an intellectual level, you can destroy your own religion, whatever it is, BUT do you stop believing ? Faith is a very stubborn 'thing'. Per say, it's not a bad thing at all, mind you. I am sorry if it comes across like I say it's bad. It's probably bad for me now, but not for others. Anyway.

G'day Folks!

I'll do a little research and get back to you with some more accurate data on the dates I mentioned earlier.  My gist memory is not what it used to be.  

Note that I was specifically referring to the earliest physical evidence relating to the new testament.

Btw, If memory serves me, all but one part of the new testament was originally written in Greek, but Matthew was originally written in Hebrew.


Take care, Robert.

You are are too old and too set in your ways.

Jesus Christ and the Power of His Perfect Word are only manifested in the hearts of those that heed His call.

You must be as little children before you can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Who are you going to call out too at the time of your death?
Who are you going to trust when you are too weak to go on?
Who is the One Person that has been told to you to lead a Perfect life and be the True Son of God?

No matter the evidence you think to be Right who claimed to raise from the dead?

Bacchus, Pan, Demeter, Artemis, Diana?
Buddha, Krishna, Kali, Quan Yin?
Isis, Osiris, Bast?

No none of these hold the keys of Salvation.

It is in One Name and One only......

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Answer : JESUS CHRIST!!!!

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/two.html

If the Bible is the inerrant and infallible word of God, as it claims (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21), we would expect there to be some evidence supporting these claims. After all, just because something claims to be the word of God does not make it true. We will examine the testimony of historical evidence to ask, Does the evidence support or deny the internal claims of the Bible?

Three tests can be applied to the Bible to see if it exhibits characteristics of a divine book that is without error. First, external evidence should confirm the truthfulness of the Bible in areas we can investigate. Second, internal evidence should show that, in one way or another, the Bible is unique. While these tests can establish the reliability of the Bible and lend support to the Bible's claims, they cannot prove its inspiration. However, the third test, a brief overview of Bible prophecy, will actually serve to verify the claim of divine inspiration.

The Testimony of History
External evidence from both archaeology and non-Christian writers confirms that the Bible--both Old and New Testaments--is a trustworthy historical document. Archaeologist Joseph Free has said that "Archaeology has confirmed countless passages which had been rejected by critics as unhistorical or contrary to known facts." [1] Renowned Jewish archaeologist Nelson Gluek confidently said that "It...may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible." [2] Christian apologist Josh McDowell tells us that "After personally trying to shatter the historicity and validity of the Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that they are historically trustworthy." [3]

Some scholars once said that Moses couldn't have written the first five books of the Bible (as the Bible says) because writing was largely unknown in his day. Then, archaeology proved otherwise by the discovery of many other written codes of the period: the code of Hammurabi (ca. 1700 B.C.), the Lipit-Ishtar code (ca. 1860), and the Laws of Eshnunna (ca. 1950 B.C.).

Critics used to say that the biblical description of the Hittite Empire was wrong because the Hittite Empire (they though) didn't even exist! Then archaeologists discovered the Hittite capital in 1906 and discovered that the Hittite's were actually a very vast and prominent civilization. Archaeological and linguistic evidence is increasingly pointing to a sixth-century B.C. date for the book of Daniel, in spite of the many critics who attempt to late-date Daniel and make it a prophecy after the detailed events it predicts.

For the New Testament, Dr. G.R. Habermas points out that within 110 years of Christ's crucifixion, approximately eighteen non-Christian sources mention more than "one hundred facts, beliefs, and teachings from the life of Christ and early Christendom. These items, I might add, mention almost every major detail of Jesus' life, including miracles, the Resurrection, and His claims to deity." [4] Sir William Ramsey, one of the greatest archeologists to ever live, demonstrated that Luke made no mistakes in references to 32 countries, 54 cities, and 9 islands.

Liberal scholars used to argue that a town named Nazareth didn't exist at the time of Jesus, until archaeology of the last few decades confirmed its existence. The Gospel's portrayals of the temple, Pilate's court, Jesus' crown of thorns, and the mode of His execution have all also been confirmed. The list could go on and on.

The historical evidence clearly shows that the Bible is a reliable historical document. Since the Bible can be trusted in areas that we can check (its history), then this gives us a reason to trust it in areas that we cannot check (its claims for inspiration).

The Uniqueness of the Bible
The internal evidence test reveals the Bible's amazing consistency. The Bible was written by over 40 authors, in 3 languages, on 3 continents, over a span of 1,500 years, and covers hundreds of controversial subjects. Yet, the authors all spoke with agreement; there are no contradictions. [5] From Genesis to Revelation, there is one unfolding story--God's redemption of mankind.

Bible Prophecy
The external and internal evidence tests do not prove the Bible's inspiration, but do reveal that the objective evidence is consistent with and supports the Bible's claims to be a divine book (because any book from God that claims to be inerrant should be reliable and consistent with itself). Bible prophecy, however, can only be explained by divine revelation and inspiration.

There are hundreds of specific prophecies in the Bible which have been literally fulfilled, in many cases centuries after the completion of the Bible. Any attempt to late-date these prophecies is impossible--there is a copy of every Old Testament book but one from before 150 BC, and hundreds of these prophecies were not fulfilled until centuries later. For a detailed discussion of this area, see Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.

Some prophecies fulfilled by Jesus are Micah 5:2, which revealed where He would be born; Isaiah 53 detailed His suffering, work at the cross, and resurrection; Psalm 22 is striking prophecy of the crucifixion.

Norman Geisler explains Ezekiel's prediction that the city of Tyre "would be destroyed and its ruins cast into the sea (26:2). This provoked scoffing because, when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Tyre, he left the ruins right where they fell--on the land. But 200 years later, Alexander the Great attacked Tyre and the inhabitants withdrew to an island just off the coast for safety. In order to reach them, Alexander threw all of the debris, stones, timbers, dust, and everything else, into the sea to build a causeway that would reach the island." [6] If events so far in the future can be accurately predicted, certainly the events of the past have been accurately recorded!

Has the text of the Bible Been Altered Over the Centuries?
One last test investigates whether or not the Bible has been corrupted down through the ages in its transmission. If it has been significantly changed, then it would not be relevant to us since inspiration does not extend to any manuscript copy. How can we know whether or not the Bible we have today is the same as what was written?

This question is answered by the bibliographical test. This test looks at the number of existing manuscript copies there are, their agreement with each other concerning the text that they are copies of, and the time interval between these copies and the date of the original writing. All scholars agree that this test has conclusively established that the biblical text which we have now is nearly identical to what was originally recorded (for both Old and New Testaments).

Sir Frederick Kenyon, who was second to none in issuing statements about manuscripts, said this about the New Testament: "The interval between the dates of original composition and the earliest existing evidence [i.e. the earliest copies we have] become so small to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially has having been written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and general integrity of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established." [7] He further said that "No fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith rests on a disputed reading."

The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which date from 200 B.C. to A.D. 68, included a copy of every Old Testament book except for one. Comparison with the texts of a thousand years later shows little or no variation and change between them.

Conclusion
The historical evidence shows that the Bible can be trusted. The commonly held idea that the Bible is unreliable or "just a myth" is unfounded. The internal evidence reveals the uniqueness of the Bible, a uniqueness which would be difficult to explain if it was just a human book. These two tests give credibility to the Bible's internal claims to be the word of God. The testimony of predictive prophecy, however, takes us a step further and confirms the Bible's claims to be inspired by God. Finally, the Bible has not been changed through the ages. The evidence shows that there is good reason to believe in the Bible.


Notes
1. Joseph Free, Archaeology and Bible History (Wheaton, Illionis: Scripture Press, 1969), p. 1.
2. Nelson Glueck, Rivers in the Desert (New York: Farar, Straus and Cudahy, 1959), p. 136.
3. Josh McDowell, More Than a Carpenter (Wheaton, Illionois: Tyndale House Publishers, 1977), p. 57.
4. Gary Habermas and Antony Flew, Did Jesus Rise From the Dead? (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1987), p. 43.
5. I have personally looked into the issue of alleged contradictions, and after thorough investigation, have never found one to hold. Norman Geisler, who has studied the Bible exhaustively for over forty years and been confronted with numerous dificulties, is of the same conclusion. A valuable resource for further investigation on this mater is Geisler's When Critics Ask.
6. Norman Geisler and Ronald Brooks, When Skeptics Ask (Wheaton, Illinois: Victor Books, 1990), p. 198.
7. Sir Frederic Kenyon, The Bible and Archaeology (New York: Harper and Row, 1940), pp. 288, 289.

For further resources on this matter, consult I'm Glad You Asked by Ken Boa and Larry Moody or Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.

Hello Narrow Path, aka Ben, aka Allanon.

I see you have found it necessary to come back on to the board as an alternate identity. Your identity might be different, but you're still carrying the same condescending over-zealous closed minded attitude, and the exact same IP address!

Are you using a DSL router or cable modem? You seem to have a static IP address!

Makes it rather easy to spot!

Are we having fun yet?
James.

Well, this sure moved along...

Robert,

quote:

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Personal experiential evidence is rarely considered, and everything comes down to bible text interpretation.

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By the same token, all you have is a very subjective personal experience with nothing outside of that to provide any grounding for that experience.  You also have greatly ignored Allanon's experience (or so it seems from the last couple pages - I just don't want to read the whole thread).  Obviously everyone who has debated with Allanon over the course of the last year sees the total change in his convictions.  It seems to bother many, but have any asked how this change happened, why it happened, or why such a drastic change?

quote:

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In fact, recourse to bible text is so deeply ingrained in that side of this arena that empirical knowledge, personal experience and other such recognizable evidence is often swept away if it is thought to disagree with bible text.

---

So why are you sweeping away Allanon's personal experience and the convictions that it has brought him?  

quote:

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Do you know just how 'similar' the world's religious beliefs are? In fact, did you know that the Koran was loosely based on the old and new testaments, albeit heavily rewritten?
All the world's holy books have 'very' similar themes and ideals. The characters and events are different of course, as they arose in different times and cultures, but their messages are essentially the same.

---

Anyone who has even very little knowledge of world religions would know that this statement is completely false.  To say that "their messages are essentially the same," is to completely ignore what each religion is saying.  Every religion is essentially exclusivist, whether it is explicitly stated or implied.  In other words, either one religion is right, or they are all wrong.

quote:

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I am extremely open minded to all these things and try to encourage same in all my discussions on all topics....One point concerning archaeological evidence cited in this post, that is claimed to support bible events: the evidence cited has been gathered by Christian-minded archaeologists who's main purpose (and more importantly, their funding) is aimed at validating bible events as being historically accurate.  Evidence gained in this way is highly biased and thus not internationally acceptable in the actual fields of archaeology and history. You will find this kind of evidence being presented as 'fact' in many bible-oriented magazines, books and papers. But these are the only places where such things (Christian propaganda) are accepted.

---

You just contradicted your open mindedness, and that by arguments that are so fallacious I hardly know where to begin.  First, how do you know that the evidence has been gathered by Christian-minded archaeologists?  Second, so what if it has been gathered by Christian-minded archaeologists.  Third, you refer to it as Christian propaganda.  Fourth, you state that this "Christian propaganda" is only accepted in "bible-oriented magazines, books and papers."  I sure hope people here are actually paying attention to what you are stating.

We should apply your logic to some other things, such as, OBE and astral projection.  You write books, don't you?  How about evolution?  Are there archaeologists out there looking to prove it?  How about Native American history?  Etc.  The whole point of archaeology and science is to prove something.  Don't scientists set out to find evidence for their theories?  Every single scientist, archaeologist, and person in the world will bring their biases to the table when given any sort of evidence.  To assume it is only Christians who do so is completely fallacious.

All you have done is given your own fallacious opinions, with nothing to back up your claims, and seem to think that your conclusions follow.  Another fallacy.  Deal with the arguments and evidence and provide proof instead of attempting to discredit Christians.  Prove to me you are open minded.

Adrian,

quote:

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I think a very important consideration here is that it seems likely that no one actually documented the words of Jesus at the time, and if they were documented no such documentary evidence exists today. There is of course the esoteric/occult records of the Essenes (which Jesus is widely thought to belong to along with his parents and disciples) and more recently the Nag Hammadi scrolls. The bible then is mostly based upon hearsay,and accordingly as evidence it would be rejected in a court of law. Note, the Nag Hammadi Gnostic scrolls were almost certainly hidden in order to prevent almost certain destruction by the emergent christian orthodox church which was seeking to impose its own powers as it has over the centuries.

---

Wow, you must have learnt from Robert.  This is all just opinion from which, your conclusions don't follow from your premises.  Let's see some evidence.

I can't even deal with the rest of your post, it's all the same, unsubstantiated, fallacious...stuff.

(edited to add the following)

Robert,

quote:

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There is no loose or circumstantial evidence to support anything in the bible, not even a 'little'. There is not one single shred of factual evidence, not one. The earliest archeological evidence available today are a few third century fingernail-size fragments of parchment that scientists 'think' may have come from an early hand written bible testament.

---

Some has been given, which you have not even bothered addressing properly and have swept them under the carpet.  There is a good deal of evidence from the OT right through to the NT.  I am really thinking that you have never actually looked into any of this for yourself.

quote:

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The 'thousands' of texts that have been vaguely cited as 'loosely' supporting the validity of the bible must be contemporary texts, not historical texts. These are based on blind dogmatic belief in the validity of the bible, not on any actual proof. They should thus be considered inadmissable as proof in this discussion.

---

Until you provide any actual proof of anything in your "argument," they will be considered proof in this discussion.  There are several thousand, in fact almost 25,000, complete and partial manuscripts of the NT with which scholars can virtually put together the complete NT with over over 99% accuracy.  No other book of antiquity even comes close. On top of that, the dates of the earliest copies compared with the actual date the originals were written, is so small as to be negligible (about 50 years).

quote:

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During the formation of christianity, elements of many beliefs and religions were taken into the heart of christianity (it appeared to be a very political affair), including elements of Mithrism (sun worship), and it is from this that we get the modern Eucharist included in christian worship.

---

All I ask is that you provide some evidence, any evidence.

quote:

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As for providing proof that there is no evidence, this is ludicrous. It is up to anyone who wants to dispute my statements to offer actual proof to the contrary. The proof you seek, but probably don't want to find, is freely available should you choose to do a little research.

---

You have committed another fallacy, Burder of Proof (BoP).  You clearly stated "I say again, there is 'no' historical proof to support what is in the bible. The only thing that supports the bible is the bible itself. This is fact, provable, etc. Anyone want to take the challenge?????" back on page 12.  You made the claim, so it is up to you to prove it.  Don't try and shift the BoP back onto the Christian.  I have done some research but apparently you haven't done any.

Again, I don't want to deal with the rest of that post (page 14) as it is all mere unsubstantiated opinion.  No evidence of anything, none.

Greetings Exothen,

As much as I respect Robert as I surely do, I can assure you I conduct my own extensive and thorough reasearch into all these matters. For example, rather than dismissing the bible our of hand in the same way as religious people here dismiss Spirituality, I do take the time to consult references in the bible whenever necessary in order to validate or invalidate certain claims etc.. For example, I personally believe there is much occult, mystical and symbolic meaning in the Gospel of St. John, which the writers of the bible failed to appreciate. That Gospel is also separately available as the Essenes version which hasn't been tampered with. This however does not in any prove it was actually written by John himself, but rather only by someone who had a very deep understanding of Spritual issues.

With regards to the authenticity of the bible itself, the fact the happenings upon which it was based occured in the middle east where the native language was Ancient Hebrew, and yet the bible was purportedly translated from Greek should say alot for starters. How did this collection of works come to be written in Greek, thousands of miles from where it all supposed to have happened? The answer cannot be that the Greek text was translated from Ancient Hebrew, because there is no real record of there ever having been an original. Jesus of course is a Greek name, not a Hebrew one. This is all notwithstanding the fact that as we have said here before, there has been translation upon translation, and interpretation upon interpretation, all to match the aspirations of the the world rulers of the time. Much of what is in the bible was selectively included under the control of Roman emperors and you know what the Romans thought of Jesus!

Regarding the claim the bible is the "word of God"; the bible, such as it even is, is actually composed of numerous separate texts from numerous different people. Were all of these people jointly and severally channelling God? (Rhetorical question). If not, which part of the bible is "the word of God" and which is the word of humans?

What I am saying is quite simple; rather than ram the bible down peoples throats condeming everyone to "hell" who refuses to embrace it, a bible which is only evidenced by itself, why not at the very least think for a minute about the origins and history of the bible rather than accepting it as a truism above and beyond all else?

With best regards,

Adrian.

Exothen - your attitude makes me not want to post any more on this topic. Which is such a shame, as the discussion was going so well.
Please be nicer in the future......

Hi NarrowPath !

This is chill.

This will be an off-topic post, I believe.

A couple of years ago I read a powerful interpretation of the part in the Gospels from which we have extracted  the famous saying : throwing the first stone. The interpretation is from René Girard.

Now back to these 'events'. Jesus is called upon when a woman who is about to be lapidated. Jesus arrives at the scene and there are 2 or more people who explain to him why this woman should be lapidated.

Jesus does the following :

He kneels down (or lowers himself if you prefer) and start to draw something in the sand.

René Girard's interpretation : Jesus has looked in those people's eyes and seen how angry they were. Eager not to feed on this fire, Jesus wisely and intentionnaly breaks visual contact : he lowers himself and draws something in the sand. He's not drawing anything specific, of course. He creates a 'waiting', a pause. And most importantly, he doesn't look into anybody's eyes, while he does this. He doesn't want to be in contact with the contaminating anger, and doesn't want anybody to read something in his eyes that's actually NOT there. Everyone waits for him to say something meaningful. Jesus already has his reputation of saying meaningful things. And he knows it.

Jesus finally says « That person who has never sinned throws the first stone ».

The basic interpretation is that 'we are all sinners', hence no one threw a stone, and everybody departed. Well people are not that wise. René Girard's stance on this : Jesus knew that in those circumstances, the first stone is always the most difficult to throw. Because there is no one to imitate. There isn't yet a 'someone else' who's done it, or if you will a 'model'. As soon as someone else has thrown the first stone, you can much more easily throw your own stone. And the more stones are thrown, the easier it gets for everyone involved to throw their stones.  Soon enough, everyone will be throwing stones, even the ones who at first were not so sure at all whether they should throw a stone or not. René Girard claims that Jesus understood the mechanism quite well and that he 'used it' to prevent the lapidation from taking place. He might have known it intuitevely, mind you. But he sure made the burden of throwing the first stone much heavier. So heavy that no one could take the lead – no one could throw the first stone. So everyone departed.

I am not very good at telling this. I don't have the book at hand, and I read this a long time ago.

Just wanted to share this with you.

I think that you can find so much wisdom in the Gospels that your head can spin. I basically agree with you all, that is when you are not talking about the 'history' of those books, because frankly I don't know enough about the archeological-historical 'aspect' of the bible to say anything intelligent about it. However, I think that 'arguing' around the source will never bring you to the conclusion that the Gospels are not conveying very important messages. I know that if I eventually lose my faith for good, I will be forever touched and changed by les Évangiles.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0804722153/qid=1063050975/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/104-7097787-0192718?v=glance&s=books

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I can't even deal with the rest of your post, it's all the same, unsubstantiated, fallacious...stuff.

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Kind of like christianity ey :|

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All I ask is that you provide some evidence, any evidence.

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Innumerable amounts exist, one needs only to look to the paganistic religions of the time to see how sun worship became worship of the sun-christ, moon worship (and it's many deities) the worship of Mary. Christianity's roots are more than obvious - the Jews didn't buy Christiainity because their messiah was nothing like Jesus, so the focus was shifted to the gentiles. Hence the dispelling of the sacred foods, circumcision, adoption of pagan rites and practices, christmas, the fish symbol, the ascention, so on and so forth.

Robert is right in saying that the evidence is right there in the open to the point where it's just plain redundant to collect it here. As much of a cop out as that seems, you'll find it's true, and there is plenty of said 'evidence' already available on this board. Christianity on the other hand, needs no proof. Because you just have to have faith. You mustn't think for yourself.

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Anyone who has even very little knowledge of world religions would know that this statement is completely false. To say that "their messages are essentially the same," is to completely ignore what each religion is saying. Every religion is essentially exclusivist, whether it is explicitly stated or implied. In other words, either one religion is right, or they are all wrong.

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That's laughable. Of course the institutions of each religion are exclusivist, but institutions are worth as much in truth as any political organization with that much power. The doctrine and esoteric meanings to every belief are fundamentally similar. After all, they all sprang from the same source ideas, whether you accept these ideas as enlightened truths of the gods or ramblings of ancient man. Aside from the origins, beliefs have been shared and intermingled to the point of indistinguishability between them. Pagan-christianity and chaldeo-judaism are two prime examples.
As Blavatsky states, "It is from the exoteric religions that we have to dig out the root-idea before we turn to esoteric truths, lest the latter should be rejected."


exothen - omgsymbolism!>?!?
Anyway, it looks like Al figured out how to use a proxy.

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Originally posted by Allanon in Disguise

If the Bible is the inerrant and infallible word of God, as it claims (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21), we would expect there to be some evidence supporting these claims. After all, just because something claims to be the word of God does not make it true. We will examine the testimony of historical evidence to ask, Does the evidence support or deny the internal claims of the Bible?

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Not that I reject the bible but if it were the infalible word of God it would not contain so many undeniable contradictions and flaws:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen11.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra.html

Greetings everyone,

I think the very strength of orthodox religions is that they play on the need for most people to believe in an almighty personified being, a deity, who they can pray to, worship and ask help of, and who they believe will support them in their hour of need. This of course is pure faith, hopefulness and wishful thinking. The churches have harnessed those emotions to form the basis of a belief system which people can conveniently follow. This seems to be the basis of most religions whether it christianity, islam etc.. Unfortunately, some churches have exceeded the principles of belief systems to make religion a means of control, sometimes at congregation level and othertimes at national levels as witnessed by countries operated my muslim clerics and so on. Even christian countries and areas have historically become battlegrounds for catholics versus protestants with considerable death and suffering as a direct result, as indeed there has been for the last two thousand years; so much for the commandment "thou shalt not kill".

When people begin to know they are never alone as sons and daughters of The All, Spirit, and "God" is actually within them and not apart from them as a separate entity as the church teaches, then things will change dramatically and the churches will lose all of their power and they know it. This is why the churches are so anti the Spiritual organisations and their teachings. People will realise that the security of the churches and the orthodox concept of of the separate God as a deity is a false security, and the power to manifest anything they need is actually within. People will then realise they are never alone, even in their darkest hours, and the need for the false security of the church will be but a memory.

The bible is the instrument of control by the churches. If a member of the congregation strays or has a question, they are immediately referred to the bible as the final word as we have witnessed in this topic, and everything else they say is the work of "satan".

With best regards,

Adrian.

Inguma,

I am really trying to be pleasant, unfortuantely, my tone and inflection don't come through the text well.  I am simply calling Robert, and others, to put up.  In debating, one does not give an argument without giving support and evidence for that argument.  I am trying to show that most of these arguments, so far, are not logical or reasonable.  A challenge was put out specifically for Christians to give evidence, and then that evidence was summarily dismissed without the slighest effort to prove why it was dismissed.  This too, is unacceptable in debate.  I am all for pleasant debate and discussion, so if I have offended anyone, I do apologize.  At the same time, debating means that ideas and arguments must be dealt with and they will get shot down - mine and everyone elses.  How else are we going to come to the truth?

Tab,

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Innumerable amounts exist, one needs only to look to the paganistic religions of the time to see how sun worship became worship of the sun-christ, moon worship (and it's many deities) the worship of Mary.

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Your parallel doesn't prove anything.  Just because the Mithras cult of the sun existed around the same time as the birth of Christianity, in no way what whatsoever, proves that Christianity adopted their practices.  Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises.  Christ referred to himself as "the Son of God" and "the Son of Man."  Christians worship the Son, not the sun.

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the Jews didn't buy Christiainity because their messiah was nothing like Jesus

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That is not true.  Jesus was a Jew, the disciples and apostles were Jews, and the first several thousand Christians were Jewish converts.  It is also not true on the grounds that Jews didn't, and still don't, agree on what their Messiah was supposed to be like.  We can get into it, but it will detract from the main topic and I would rather stick to one thing at a time.

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Christianity on the other hand, needs no proof. Because you just have to have faith. You mustn't think for yourself.

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Sounds very similar to OBE, AP, etc.  And it also shows you don't know what the Bible teaches.  I have already stated that the Bible is clear that we are to "search will all our hearts," we are to "study to show ourselves approved," and that we are to love God with "all our heart, all our soul, and all our mind."  We are told to search for wisdom and understanding as though searching for hidden treasure, even if it costs everything we have.  Of course there is an aspect of faith to it - is there any way for the finite to comprehend the infinite?

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Of course the institutions of each religion are exclusivist, but institutions are worth as much in truth as any political organization with that much power. The doctrine and esoteric meanings to every belief are fundamentally similar.

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I never said the institutions are exclusivist - the claims, the doctrine of each are.  Each religion is so fundamentally different from the next that there can be no reconciliation of beliefs.  The very ideas of who God is, why we are here, and how we attain salvation, if indeed we even have to, are so different that all them cannot be right, and most likely, only one is right.  The very core religious beliefs is what separates them, not institutions.

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Aside from the origins, beliefs have been shared and intermingled to the point of indistinguishability between them. Pagan-christianity and chaldeo-judaism are two prime examples.

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Perhaps you can explain to me then the persecution of Christians by the Romans for 300 years.  Christian practice and belief utterly changed the landscape of Rome as the Christians refused to worship the pagan gods.  So, unless I completely missed your point, which is likely [:I], there is no reason to believe that all beliefs are indistinguishable.

Adrian,

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With regards to the authenticity of the bible itself, the fact the happenings upon which it was based occured in the middle east where the native language was Ancient Hebrew, and yet the bible was purportedly translated from Greek should say alot for starters. How did this collection of works come to be written in Greek, thousands of miles from where it all supposed to have happened? The answer cannot be that the Greek text was translated from Ancient Hebrew, because there is no real record of there ever having been an original. Jesus of course is a Greek name, not a Hebrew one.

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I am not even sure what you are trying to say here.  The Old Testament is the same as that of the Hebrew Bible, although the books are arranged in a different order.  The OT came about from the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, around 250 BCE, and this manuscript is called the Septuagint, or LXX for short.  The NT was written in Greek, mainly by Jewish Christians.  In the time of Christ Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek were all very common and more than likely most people were bilingual.  Jesus was a Jew and his name, as we know it, is just a translation into English from the Greek.  His name was something like "Yhousa", or "Yeshua", which is Hebrew and is translated as "Iesous" in the Greek.  Both Greek and Hebrew mean Joshua, which means "Yahweh saves" or "Yahweh is salvation."

As for geographical area, I really have no idea what you mean by the Greek being written thousands of miles from where it all happened.

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This is all notwithstanding the fact that as we have said here before, there has been translation upon translation, and interpretation upon interpretation, all to match the aspirations of the the world rulers of the time. Much of what is in the bible was selectively included under the control of Roman emperors and you know what the Romans thought of Jesus!

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These things may have been said, but has any proof ever been offered?  As I stated above, there are around 25,000 partial or complete manuscripts with which the originals can be reconstructed to greater than 99.5%.  Those manuscripts are still available and are used in translating the Bible, and all translations essentially say the same thing.  If much of what was said was under control of the Romans, why would the Romans let anything be said at all, especially since it looks unfavorable at Roman paganist practices, and then persecute Christians for their beliefs?  If the Romans did have control, they shouldn't have cared.  It makes no sense.

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Regarding the claim the bible is the "word of God"; the bible, such as it even is, is actually composed of numerous separate texts from numerous different people.

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And that is what the word "Bible" means - "books."  But the fact that they were written by numerous people of a period of a couple thousand years (including the OT), does nothing in arguing against it, but rather adds support for its inspiration.

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What I am saying is quite simple; rather than ram the bible down peoples throats condeming everyone to "hell" who refuses to embrace it, a bible which is only evidenced by itself, why not at the very least think for a minute about the origins and history of the bible rather than accepting it as a truism above and beyond all else?

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First, I have not rammed the Bible down anyones throat or condemned anyone to hell.  Second, the whole point of this discussion is to show that the Bible is not only evidenced by itself.  And third, we would have to come to a consensus on the origins and historicity of the Bible before coming to any conclusions about whether it is a truism or not.

Truth is absolute.  And since most disagree in here with Christianity, either you're all right, or the Christians are right, or we are all wrong; we cannot all be right.  What I want to get to is the truth.  As I stated earlier, the claims of Christianity demand the most serious investigation.

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Even christian countries and areas have historically become battlegrounds for catholics versus protestants with considerable death and suffering as a direct result, as indeed there has been for the last two thousand years; so much for the commandment "thou shalt not kill".

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Yeah, look at all the Protestant vs. Catholic battles that have raged for centuries in North America.  First, you are judging Christianity by its abuses, not its beliefs.  Second, the commandment is "thou shalt not murder;" big difference.  And third, if we look at an athiestic belief like communisim, we see that many more have been killed in the name of no god, than in the name of God (not that that justifies anything, its just to tell the complete story instead of just one side).

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When people begin to know they are never alone as sons and daughters of The All, Spirit, and "God" is actually within them and not apart from them as a separate entity as the church teaches, then things will change dramatically and the churches will lose all of their power and they know it.

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If you would like to get into the self-refuting nature of pantheism, that's up to you.  It would be a quick way to show what isn't the truth.  

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If a member of the congregation strays or has a question, they are immediately referred to the bible as the final word as we have witnessed in this topic, and everything else they say is the work of "satan".

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This shows you don't really know anything about Christianity.

Wow that was a lot of people answering that challenge!! it is so funny... I dont have the faintest clue what they are talking about Ha. Here I am a very believing Christian and have not much knowledge on all that archaologic stuf. I would like to caution everyone though, I feel somewhat like I am in the middle of a Bar Brawl and it is getting more and more like a fight. I personally dont like that a lot (from where comes war anbd fighting among you, come they not even frum your lust)I dont wanna preach but I feel that if we dont watch out we could become a reproach to the cause of the Christ.
Well Robert ..You threw out the challenge, what do you think. By the way just one thing you mentioned that I was thinking about all day. The thing about being a neutral judge of these evidence and stuf. You know what, I dont tink that is possible. It is either you try to prove the Bible becourse you believe or you try to disprove it cause you dont believe. There are no inbetween . All we can hope is that everyone will be as truthful in their arguing as possible.

Regards Mustardseed

Allanon is a name taken from a book written by Terry Brooks.

The Narrow Path is the name taken from the Word of God.

I choose to live in Truth and not in a fairy tale.

I am no better than anyone here. I am a sinner and struggle daily to do the Right thing. But one thing needs to me known here.

WE ARE AT WAR AND YOU DONT SEE IT!!!!

Fundamentalists from Islam run jets into our twin towers.

Athiests strive to remove all signs of God from the country. They take down the Ten Commandments and crosses that beared the names of the fallen from the terrorist attacks. Soon it will come to a point where America has no protection from God anymore because we dont defend his Word. Mark my words this is the end of days and it is time to realize that the prophecies of the Word are coming true. If it were not for the young, brave Christian men in the service that fight defending the Name of God, none of you here would even be allowed to worship your pagan gods.

You would ne on all fours with a prayer rug!!

Dont you see that Jesus is the answer? The time of God's wrath is near and Christians need to stand up for the Way, Truth, and the Light because if we dont the Islam fundies and athiests will be the next world power.

I do not say that I would approve of someoneforcing you to worship Jesus. Strong Christians such as myself might say that it is the only Way but there remains the CHOICE. That is the beuty of it.

Islam is not so forgiving and they want us dead.

Dark days are coming for this country if we do not unite as Brothers in Christ and fight injustice and false religons.

Just One question for you.

HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY GO WRONG UNITING WITH CHRIST AND HIS TEN COMMANDMENTS.

DO NOT LIE, STEAL, MURDER, COMMIT ADULTERY, ETC.

HOW IS THAT SO HARD TO ACCEPT?

LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF AND SPREAD THE FACT OF THE RESSURECTION.

IT IS IN YOUR HEARTS TO HEAR THE CALL OF GOD AND I GUARANTEE YOU IF YOU PROFESS YOUR ALLEGIANCE TO CHRIST YOU WILL BE A CHANGED PERSON.

can Al be IP banned now?:|

Hi Narrow Path !

I am not sure about this, but there are a lot of fundamentalist Christians in the USA. Maybe this is untrue.

My guess is that they are many countries who are not over-the-top with religion (you would consider them pretty lukewarm toward religion) and which are not at war with anybody.

Many people could argue, and I would have great difficulty to oppose their views, that religion has often been the pretext or motive for dissensions and wars and genocides. Don't you think ?

It's very dangerous to mix religion and politics together, as we all know.

I agree with what has been said somewhere in another thread :
there should a strict separation between religion and the Law.
And I shall add : between education and religion.

Do you think it's possible to be a « true » christian, and to marry a muslim (in a courtroom or at Las Vegas, sorry for the cliché, I am a Canadian) and for them to have Jewish friends, let's say ? And oh yeah they would have 2 children, and one would turn out to be a Indu buddhist and the other .. well would just be on an ever searching spiritual path and would wake up at 50 to find out that.. he's a christian after all. Can you picture this ? My story is not very good - since it seems to focus only on religions that.. well.. you get my point.

I tell you what. I felt from the beginning that you would enjoy René Girard. You will simply love what he has to say. He's a reknowned philosopher and anthropologist. And he's a Catholic. It's unfortunate that he's a Catholic, and even more unfortunate that he has no shame of saying so in the face of journalists, because it has become mmm... suspiscious to be a Christian, when you are an 'intellectual'. Regardless, there are many atheists who are supporting his theories. You'll just love this guy. He's also a literature lover, he has analysed Shakespeare, Doestoievski, Camus, etc. at lenght... And there's nothing esoterical about his work. A college philosphy teacher told me that he's teaching Girard's theories in his classes. At uni he's the focus of both philosophy and sociology classes. I would not push for some obscure guy here...
He's done his homeworks and he's brilliant. His work is totally relevant if you are a Christian - and will be still relevant if you aren't.

Please James S,

You are a moderator. I ask you, I am kneeling in front of you, I press my forehead on your beloved hand, my Lord, my King, my Savior, my Prince, please do not allow your board's authorities to ban Allanon. Allanon is Allanon. As long as he's not spamming the board -filling it with so many threads that we are lost in them - why ban him ? I just don't see the reason. We all preach. Well you don't. Actually there are quite a few people, active members, who are not preaching anything at all here, and I think you are one of them, well good for you ! you're my hero.

If you ban Allanon, then you shall ban me as well.

** and she gently wets James's hand with her tears ***

xxxxx

JAMES_S

So you know, the PM in your inbox was sent by me BEFORE Allanon's latest blurt.

ALLANON

I reread your post again. Let me ask you this : are you attending the same church as George W. Bush ?

OK I have the feeling that I will by lynched.

*she runs away full spead*

*looks back*

« Yeah those books from RENÉ GIRARD. Start with THINGS HIDDEN... »

G'day Folks!

First, I thank you one and all for the philosophical way this thread is progressing. At least, no one has been killed yet.  May it continue.

I am now way out of my depth here, simply because this is not my field. However, a dear friend (an expert in this field, the beautiful "Beth" has agreed to enter this debate and will be posting shortly. Consider yourself honored; and hold onto your hats...

We may be better off starting a new thread, and moving this topic there, as the coming discussion will be amazing and lengthy to say the least. It may even be wise to start a new major topic to deal with this and related subjects, eg, one called 'Religion'.

Hold your breath
And prepare for Beth.


Take care, Robert.

Greetings to thee O Chill,

Dearest lady mine, thine heartfelt plea doth rent mine soul. Thou hast come to me on bended knee with thine selfless and humble petitions, that thou mayest save this scoundrel Allanon from mine wrath.

Though I say to thee oh lady fair, forasmuch as my sword is sharp, and mine arm strong, the ultimate power to vanquish doth lay with Adrian the Almighty, for I am but a humble servent of his will.

An it please thee, as long as this over-zealous wrech for which thine gentle tears are shed doth use what brains the Lord God has seen fit to impart upon him, continue to speaketh words not in parrot fashion from some ancient texts, and relent upon his seemingly obsessive desire that we shalt all become converts to his ways, as has been his want in times past, then with assurance I say to thee he will be spared, and so dear lady thou shalt not have to fear for thine own position within this community.

Now spare thy tears kind woman, for thou doest rust my armour.

Kindest Regards,
Sir James.

Que nous proferes-tu la, l'anglois ?! Et sur mes terres, morbleu ?!
Retires toi d'ici et rejoins la pietaille, manant, avant qu'il ne me chante de t'occir ! Peu me chaut tes jeremiades et lamentations, c'est a moi qu'il appartient de decider qui prend le chemin du pilori ! Quand a toi, le moine, fais ton office,?@J?fentends encore trop de maures chanter leurs insanites et s'esbaudir dans les rues de notre bonne ville quand bien meme ils ne daignent point d'embrasser la sainte croix ! Au bucher ! A l'echafaud ! Qu'on les saigne tous tel de la vile fenaison ! Point de pardon ! Dieu guide notre epee vengeresse !

[|)]

Sorry, i couldn't resist to go back to the middle-age...after all wasn't it the golden age of the christianity ?! hahahahahaha [}:)]

Thanks Robert for at least having the courage, (and energy) to persue the subject at hand and also for admitting, that, your claims were based on hearsay[;)]. So you see we surprise you, there were some people who did not have a problem with arguing these things with a "Phd in religion" we are not all fearful Christian ignoramousses who are afraid of a choppy little "fight".I am in no doubt that with the network you surely must have ,you have now mustered up the most convincing and knowledgable person, you can think of, to reinforce your "belief",the view you BELIEVE to be the truth. ha. All in good sport, I very much look forward to talking to Beth, and to hear what she has to say. However I will probably sit on the side lines, while these giants crash[;)]It sounds like Allanon vs Beth is like King Kong meets Godzilla , and I look forward to it. and who knows maybe while these giants clash I can get some work done. I moved back on my boat after 3 months of money making on land and hope to start cruising soon. Lots to be done , going diving tomorrow too.
Regards Mustardseed

partly in response to Chills post (on a previous page, my goodness!) and partly responding to all the calls for proof and what-not....

Faith is a very strange beast indeed. Faith can lift your spirit at the same time it can drag you down a wrong path an leave you in a ditch later on.  I think there's a reason some use the phrase 'blind' faith, not so much becuase you have faith without seeing proof, but faith iself removes the desire to see further.  No, I'm not knocking it, I have a certain level of faith in many things myself, but we're talking religion here.

Some have faith that Jesus was messiah, some have faith in written history. Both are important, yet in this context both are meaningless unless each person makes the effort to see, seek the truth for themselves. Those that toss the tools provided to FIND the truth aside; I would not label as having an abundance of faith, rather I'd say they have an abundance of fear, or an abundance of stupidity.

Either way, if you do not search for yourself you will remain ignorant, regardless of the level of faith you posess.

A man walking through the desert looking for truth stumbles upon a book half buried in the sand. Written long ago, the book reveals all explanations within as the ultimate truth. The man sits, reads the book cover to cover and decides this is good enough. He sits with his book, happy and faithfull for all time.....covered with and petrified by tons of sand that once was his road to truth.

Hmmm...interesting.

Robert throws out a challenge he cannot defend and then retreats to allow an "expert" to take the reigns.  No one else here is an expert, but perhaps I, too, should go and find myself one to do my thinking and debating for me.  Then I wouldn't have to do any research or studying and bother to learn anything new...

I find it quite contradictory that there are those in here who keep putting down the Bible, and that without giving any rational explanation, and instead argue to experience - that the Bible is only one path leading to further spiritual truths, etc.  Yet, when they see Narrow Path's posts, they fail to recognize that he came to this realization of the truth through a very "New Age" type of spiritual experience.  Has no one in here noticed this drastic change in Allanon's beliefs?  Has no one questioned why or how he has developed such strong convictions, and that on his own through a spiritual experience?

Most importantly, would anyone here want to know if they were wrong in their beliefs?

Being as most here dont believe in One Path only it is safe to assume that the risk of following Christ would not be too great.

What would be the harm in following Christ if you believe we are all going to make it one way or the other. What would it hurt to say that he is a "Way"?

If you are wrong than it wouldnt matter anyways according to your belief system because all paths lead to God.

Why the risk?

how could it be possible that there is only just ONE path to God ??!!!
Come on people ! Go out, a little, watch the world ! It is so big and wonderful ! How could it be so narrow !!!! We are submerged by the infinity ...how could it matter to you that someone is not acting like you do to feel God ?! Be tolerant. Jesus was. Did jesus came claiming everywhere that he was the ONLY way ?

I am a Christain and in all my beliefs, i see nithing wrong with OBE's and Astral Projection, it is just the viewing of you God-Given mind in a small little "projected" world. Its the same as a Virtual Reality Video Games.

Oh, And That Was VERY Low And VERY Cruel ShadowWatcher!

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Did jesus came claiming everywhere that he was the ONLY way ?

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John 14
6   Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Mark 16

15   And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16   He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17   And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18   They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19   So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20   And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

oh my God ! Jesus said that ???!!!![:O]

Now, i have totally lost any trust in this name. I had at last a little respect for Jesus, remembering my feelings when i was a child...but now it is gone. Thanks Allanon.

By the way, Allanon, why did you lied to us, using another identity ?
It's not honest, you know...

Allanon/Narrow Path:

Every night that you sleep, your astral body and ego/I leave your body!  In fact, the astral body is mentioned explicitly in the Lord's Prayer.  It is hoped that we develop our lower members.  You are telling people the opposite of what they are supposed to be doing!  [}:)]

Can we get an exorcism over here (i.e. in World Religions) for our friend, Allan.  Thank you!  Don't worry, pal- we got you covered.[;)]

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Every night that you sleep, your astral body and ego/I leave your body! In fact, the astral body is mentioned explicitly in the Lord's Prayer. It is hoped that we develop our lower members. You are telling people the opposite of what they are supposed to be doing!

Can we get an exorcism over here (i.e. in World Religions) for our friend, Allan. Thank you! Don't worry, pal- we got you covered.

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Once again it should be noted that Astral Projection can be a God given blessing.

However....

Most here in this discussion have NO allegiance to Christ and thus NO protection from the deceptions of the evil one. You live your life as if your choices do not bear any sort of consequences and think that when you die you are not held responsible for the fruits of your labors here on earth.

This is the deception and the utter disregard of the judgement that the serpent uses to blind you.

Astral Project all you want. Just make sure you are squared away with Christ first and in like mind with the Perfect Will of God.

Christians are no better than anyone else. They just look ahead and realize that they have a chance to avoid the judgement and live with Christ for Good.

G'day Folks!

To answer Mustardseed's earlier comments:

First and foremost, please do not think that this topic and the ones that will surely follow are designed to attack the bible or any religious beliefs. They are not.  

As I have said a few times here, this turn of events is in response to the attacks of christian fundamentalists on everyone who does not believe exactly as they do. But the field of debate took an interesting turn and has spread to the point where we need more reliable sources of information than hearsay or quick web searches can provide.

The whole idea of what is to come is to show the truth, not to argue bible text. Beth is not coming here to argue with anyone.  She is coming here to teach and share and debate the truth about religious history. In particular, she will be covering the period from 300 bce to 300 ce, but she will also cover from middle ages to modern times.

The reason I asked Beth to participate in this area is because it is such a complex topic and no one here, including myself, has the knowlege to deal with the origins and history of the bible. A great deal of the history of the bible is clouded. If you give her a chance, Beth will remove many of those clouds. And of course, given Beth's academic level, you can expect accurate referencing. We are honored to have Beth's participation.

Please do not think that Beth will come stomping in here matching bible quote for bible quote. This would be circular, unproductive and thus will never happen.  But if you want intelligent, accurate and informative discussion on the history of these matters, then Beth is your girl.

The matters that will be discussed here under the new master forum topic of religion are wide and deep and absolutely fascinating. I look forward to all of this unfolding with great interest.


Take care, Robert.

quote:

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Originally posted by Narrow Path

Just One question for you.

HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY GO WRONG UNITING WITH CHRIST AND HIS TEN COMMANDMENTS.

DO NOT LIE, STEAL, MURDER, COMMIT ADULTERY, ETC.

HOW IS THAT SO HARD TO ACCEPT?

LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF AND SPREAD THE FACT OF THE RESSURECTION.

IT IS IN YOUR HEARTS TO HEAR THE CALL OF GOD AND I GUARANTEE YOU IF YOU PROFESS YOUR ALLEGIANCE TO CHRIST YOU WILL BE A CHANGED PERSON.

---

Allanon/Narrow Path/What's Next,

The 10 commandements were written for the Jews.  Moses was an initiate.  His vision was a "first set of truths" toward greater truths to come.  More specifically, these 10 commandments are baby steps toward a greater understanding that we are not able to comprehend in our current state.  The human race had just developed intellect and the ego was running wild, as the training wheels had come off (i.e. Angels were no longer doing it for us; we now have to do it ourselves).  [^]

Christ took 42 bits from the Sacred Writings and combined them into the Lord's Prayer.  The Lord's Prayer mentions the 4 lower bodies (physical; etheric; astral; and ego/I) along with the 3 higher bodies.  You are speaking against what the Lord spoke for!  [B)]

ALL religions have a place.  They were all intended.  Your call to arms is inappropriate.  The greatest force in the world is a mind focussed on peace- not war!  [:)]

Until you understand human evoltion, you will most likely be living in fear, which leads to hate.  Hate will produce stupidity in future incarnations.  FYI: Jesus mentions rebirth in the Bible, but informs his disciples that the time is inappropriate for its divulgence.  Surely, you are aware that Jesus taught a different lesson to his disciples than he taught to the masses?  I would guess that someone with your devotion, would be interested in the more esoteric teachings (i.e. hidden).  However, devotion and mere sentiments are NOT the tools for teaching.  It is sinful to present the Word incorrectly!  [}:)]

Robert..

I am curious on just one question if you dont mind.

Who do you say that Jesus Christ is?

That is all. Just a one or two word title would be perfect. Just who do YOU think He is? In your heart.

Who is Jesus Christ?

Thank You.

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Bruce

First and foremost, please do not think that this topic and the ones that will surely follow are designed to attack the bible or any religious beliefs. They are not.  
[/br]

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This, of course can only be true.  The astral body (with the ego/I) of EVERY human being separates from the etheric and physical bodies when we sleep.  The Lord's prayer mentions these bodies specifically!

quote:

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As I have said a few times here, this turn of events is in response to the attacks of christian fundamentalists on everyone who does not believe exactly as they do. But the field of debate took an interesting turn and has spread to the point where we need more reliable sources of information than hearsay or quick web searches can provide.
[/br]

---

The most reliable source is validation via one's own experience(s).  This is what spiritual development is all about.  It would be incorrect to  expect that if one presents a matter logically, others will accept it.  Unfortunately, people's preferences will decide for them.  People's minds are like cement- all mixed up and permanently set!

quote:

---

The whole idea of what is to come is to show the truth, not to argue bible text. Beth is not coming here to argue with anyone.  She is coming here to teach and share and debate the truth about religious history. In particular, she will be covering the period from 300 bce to 300 ce, but she will also cover from middle ages to modern times.
[/br]

---

The way the Mystery Schools have always taught the truth is via validation.  This required that the students progress (by degrees) on a path of spiritual development.  One cannot show the truth to one any more than one can teach morality...else we'd all be moral.

The periods that you listed are not appropriate!  In order to understand evolution and religions, one must start from the beginning (i.e. The Saturn period) and move through each phase.  Anything less than this would be incomplete and incorrect.

quote:

---

[

The reason I asked Beth to participate in this area is because it is such a complex topic and no one here, including myself, has the knowlege to deal with the origins and history of the bible. A great deal of the history of the bible is clouded. If you give her a chance, Beth will remove many of those clouds. And of course, given Beth's academic level, you can expect accurate referencing. We are honored to have Beth's participation.
[/br]

---

Knowledge is insufficient.  We must seek to acquire WISDOM, as the acquisition of wisdom leads to morality, which the human race would surely crumble without.  Academic institutions do not teach wisdom; the school of life teaches wisdom- that's why we're here.

It is true, we must approach everything with an open mind.  However, it is also true that Theology is insufficient.  

Presenting trivial questions/answers simply trivializes the subject.  As you know, spiritual matters are not to be trivialized.

quote:

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Please do not think that Beth will come stomping in here matching bible quote for bible quote. This would be circular, unproductive and thus will never happen.  But if you want intelligent, accurate and informative discussion on the history of these matters, then Beth is your girl.

---

Without the occult keys, this spiritual book simply cannot be understood.  Most (i.e. certainly not all) of the people who come to the Astral Pulse do not approach spiritual matters seriously enough to warrant understanding.  Herein lies the root of the problem.  Question and answer periods should only be used to sporn amazement and wonder, which are the keys to learning.  If one is simply looking for a "quick fix" and/or simple answers to simple questions, real learning will not take place.

We are now in a stage of development within our evolution which requires that these matters be presented to the intellect and the spiritual organs.  Unfortunately, people normally choose not to think.  When they do, they apply a materialistic mode of thought toward spiritual matters, which can only lead to more misunderstanding.

This site should be viewed as an appetizer for real learning and not a substitute.  However, people are getting used to the "throw out a question; give me an answer; now I know what you know" mode, which is quite deceiving.  If a senior in high school informs a 7th grader what they learned for the day, it does not make the 7th grader a high school student.

One must also have the occult keys that explain history correctly.  It is not sufficient to present history in a classical sense.  There are countless instances of history being intentionally mis-marked to throw off the materialist.  The occult students learn where these instances exist and how to correct them to understand properly.

quote:

---

Without the occult keys, this spiritual book simply cannot be understood. Most (i.e. certainly not all) of the people who come to the Astral Pulse do not approach spiritual matters seriously enough to warrant understanding. Herein lies the root of the problem. Question and answer periods should only be used to sporn amazement and wonder, which are the keys to learning. If one is simply looking for a "quick fix" and/or simple answers to simple questions, real learning will not take place.

---

(http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/positive8.jpg)

quote:

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Originally posted by Narrow Path


I am curious on just one question if you dont mind.

Who do you say that Jesus Christ is?

That is all. Just a one or two word title would be perfect. Just who do YOU think He is? In your heart.

Who is Jesus Christ?

Thank You.

---

Well, that is just my opinion, i hope to not hurt too much people but i think that Allanon's image was relevant: Jesus is a product.

Maybe Beth can start with explaining the statement below first , I found it on the net and it sounds quite .....interesting.

(qoute)
Many critics of Christianity claim that the Bible we read today has been changed in major ways since the originals were written.  For example, some have claimed that there are "hundreds of thousands of errors" in our present Bibles.  Some have claimed that the Catholic Church in the fourth and fifth centuries made major revisions of the Bible in order to support their own peculiar doctrine.  Still others have claimed that certain inspired books have been kept out of the Bible (for example the Gospel of Thomas).

       All of these claims rest on the assumption that we do not have available to us the original New Testament writings.  Although it is true that we do not have actual copies of the original manuscripts of the gospels or the letters, what we do have is very solid evidence that the current Greek text of the New Testament is extremely reliable.  

       Our Greek text is based on some very ancient manuscripts.  Some of the most important manuscripts available today are listed below.

1.  The Codex Vaticanus, or Codex B.  The Codex Vaticanus is a vellum codex on 759 pages in uncial script.  The manuscript has been dated to around AD 350 .  It contains the entire New Testament, except Hebrews 9:13-end, I and II Timothy, Titus and Revelation.  It also contains all of the Old Testament in Greek except the first few chapters of Genesis and several Psalms.  The manuscript has been kept in the Vatican since at least 1481.

2.  The Codex Sinaiticus, or Codex Aleph.  The Sinaiticus manuscript received its name because it was discovered at St. Catharines Monastery on Mt. Sainai in 1844 by the biblical scholar Tischendorf.  It was found in a basket of old parchments which were about to be thrown into a fire.  This manuscript is now in the British Museum.  Like the Vatican manuscript, it has been dated to around 350 AD.  It contains much of the Old Testament in Greek, but most significantly, it has the entire New Testament in Greek.

3. The Alexandrian Codex, or Codex A.  This is a fifth-century codex, containing most of the Old Testament and all the New Testament except a few pages of Matthew, two from 1st John and three from 2 Corinthians.  This manuscript was found in Alexandria in Egypt, but was given as a gift to the king of England in 1621. The manuscript is now located on the British Library.

4.  The Washington Manuscript.  This manuscript from the end of the fourth century contains the four gospels.  It is especially significant, as it contains Mark 16:9-20, unlike the three manuscripts already mentioned.

5.  The Chester Beatty Papyri.  This is a collection of a number of papyrus codex fragments, located in the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin, Ireland.  One of the papyri contains thirty leaves of the New Testament in Greek which have been dated to the late second or early third century (ie. around 200 AD).  Another includes 86 of 104 leaves of the letters of Paul from around from the early third century.

6.  The Bodmer Papyri.  This is a group of manuscripts found in the Bodmer Library of World Literature.  Included are a complete manuscript of Luke and John dated to 175-225 BC, as well as a manuscript of over half of the book of John which has been dated as early as 150 AD.

7.  The John Rylands Fragment.  This papyrus fragment contains only John 18:31-33 and 37,38, which would make it an insignificant find except that it has been dated to 130 AD.  This fragment was copied within fifty years of the death of the apostle John.

       From this list, one can see that we have manuscripts of the entire Bible from about 350 AD and of significant portions of the Bible from around 200 AD or before.  Claims that the New Testament was added to, subtracted from or changed in any significant way are indefensible in the light of this evidence.

        Additional evidence in support of the accuracy of the New Testament we have in our hands today is found in the writings of the early church "fathers."  Writers such as Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr and many others wrote extensively in the first and second centuries AD, quoting from a large proportion of the entire New Testament, providing further evidence in support of the accuracy of our New Testament text.

        As to the claims that there are "hundreds of thousands of errors" in our New Testament text, this is based on the nearly ten thousand manuscripts which we have.  Virtually all the supposed errors are minor slips of the pen of the many scribes who copied the Greek New Testament.   Through careful analysis of the thousands of manuscripts, scholars are able to reproduce a Greek text which is a virtually exact copy of the original.  
(end qoute)

Just thought I would copy it for anyone interested. I figured that since you are calling in the big guns [;)] We (who believe) might as well look for some info on the net, seing we have no Phd in Mideast studies at some fancy university, [;)]

I look forward to beth

And by the way how about we ( yep it has become us and them [V]) find some experts too. There has got to be someone out there with a Phd in Christianity to help us when beth arrives. How about it lets look on the net and find someone and invite them to the debate. It would be very interesting to say the least

Hello everyone.

Well, I wish my entry into this discussion would have been more pleasant for me.  However, it seems that for some reason, I have already been labeled as an adversary to Christianity.  Wow.  That's too bad.  Do you think it takes a non-Christian scholar and a Christian scholar to hash this out?  Do you really think that only one from each side could accomplish this?  And how do you know what my position is on Christianity?  You have already assumed I am NOT one.  This just shows how some people make erroneous assumptions and develop immediate and unwarranted biases that ultimately lead to the massive alienation present in our world today.  

In my opinion, the tone of this thread is very disheartening.  It is also, in my opinion, very un-Christ-like.

I will not write my posts with a bunch of academic jargon.  I will write in as simple language as is possible.  This is not because I think it is too complicated for simple folk, but rather because it is the language that I prefer to use.  Too many problems have already occurred throughout the centuries by talking "over people's heads."  If anyone wants to get into a more technical discussion, then I will glad to do so, to a certain extent, or I can recommend some good books to get you started.  

DjM, your posts are very close to being correct as I have come to understand Christianity so far.  I agree with where you are going with all of this.  But, I must beg to differ with a few things.  First, it is "Knowledge" that is first and foremost necessary for all understanding.  It IS enough—it is all we have to go on.  Without knowledge, we all fall into error (see paragraph #1 for a common example.)  I cannot speak for you, but, from reading the rest of your posts, I think that a clarification on "knowledge" could be made.  

There are many levels of and ways to acquire knowledge.  One is to take the knowledge that has been compiled before us and learn all that we can from it.  This is the starting point.  

Then there is a more personal knowledge.  This personal knowledge is acquired on an individual basis.  Knowledge of this type ranges anywhere from the conclusions that are drawn from studying the knowledge of others all the way to receiving personal revelations. And yes, DjM, the mystery schools did thrive on this latter form of knowledge.  BUT, before initiates were allowed to learn the ways of acquiring such "higher" knowledge, many years of education were required, and a strong moral fiber must have been formed within.  You are also correct when you say that the esoteric keys are necessary to understand the scriptures.  I have at least a few of these keys that I can share with you.  BUT, I WILL NOT share these in a forum that has the argumentative and negative tone of this one.  I will not use the knowledge that I have in a heated argument about the validity of the current interpretation of Christianity.  And that is all that it is--One interpretation—albeit one that has been well hammered out on the anvil of time.  That interpretation needs no more seeking and no more answers.  All has been found for that one and as far as I am concerned, the book is closed.  Apparently it serves it's believers well enough.

I am much more interested in participating in a discussion about different ways to interpret scripture.  And here is where I must disagree with you again DjM.  Going back to the "beginning" or the "age of Saturn" (whenever that was) is fine, but I would like to know exactly what you mean here. Maybe you could share with us the texts that you speak of.   It was my suggestion to begin with 300 b.c.e.  This date is just a good starting point.  This period is also based upon my own years of study, and I have found that we can learn A LOT from going "back over" the period of 300 b.c.e to 300 c.e.  There is so much history and background material for the development of both Judaism and Christianity that is little known to our society because it was later ignored and not canonized.

Mustardseed, you mentioned in part, some of the texts that must be studied to begin to formulate a more accurate picture of early Christianity--and those texts are the ones that were written by the early Church Fathers.  Your data on the available copies of ancient scriptures all sound correct as well, but if you will notice, with the only exception being small fragments, that all complete NT codices can only be dated back to the 4th century forward.  It was not until 325ish that Christianity even became an established religion when it was chosen by Constantine as the religion of his much dreamed of New Roman Empire.  The Bible as we have it today was actually put together during this time.  The bishops of several Council meetings, spent a very long time hammering out many differences of opinion as well as trying to decide what books should be included and what books should not.  For example, there were many heated debates about he purpose and methods of baptism, the Eucharist (The Lord's Supper,) and the nature of Jesus Christ. Believe it or not, these are all still being debated 1,700 years later. That is why we have Catholics and all the different Protestant branches.  This is also why we have Orthodox, Moderate and Liberal.  At the time, however, the most heated debate was the latter--whether Jesus was fully human and received the holy spirit as an adult, whether he was born partially human and partially divine, or whether he was completely divine merely taking on a physical body as only a deity could do.  They never did come to a complete concensus on this.  On the scriptures: the Pauline Letters, the Gospel of John and Revelation almost didn't make the final cut. There was a great deal of controversy about these texts, but ultimately they were included.  This is no big secret and a little homework can easily verify what I say. Any textbook on the development of Christianity can inform any interested reader.  

Now, previous to there being a "closed canon" of NT scripture, A LOT happened during the first three centuries of this 2,000 year era.  Many books of "scripture" were written and many of these can be found in The Gnostic Gospels and The Dead Sea Scrolls that were discovered in the mid-20th century. These newly discovered texts shed a great deal of light on these earliest years. There is no way of knowing how many others have been long destroyed--or are yet to be found. The 300 year period previous to the 1st century, and the 300 years previous to the closing of the Christian canon is where there is a lot to learn for everyone whose posts I have read.  These are the writings of the early Church Fathers, Clement of Alexandria, Origen of Alexandria and many others. There is also the vast body of Jewish midrash that must also be taken into consideration as well as Greek Philosophy which is the over-arching culture within which both Judaism and Christianity flourished.   The first few hundred years of the current era was a VERY different Christianity than we have today.  Yes--they used the same scriptures--BUT it is the INTERPRETATION of those scriptures that is different.  In these arguments about the "validity" of NT scripture--it all depends upon what you are trying to validate.  If you are trying to validate Christianity as we have it today--you have to move further into the future of Church Fathers to find it (post 3rd century.)  If you are trying to validate that there was a very different Christianity in the first century, then the first, second and third century writings is where you will find your info.

An important note about scripture:  Translating from language to language is a very difficult process.  Many times there are not comparable words in the new language that will truly embody the meaning of the word that the originating language meant to convey.  For example, all cultures have their own metaphorical agreements, such as "I slept like a log" or "I feel like a ton of bricks have been lifted from my heart."  These simple phrases that you and I do not have to qualify to each other became a serious problem for biblical translators.  You and I both know that I am not talking about a literal "log" or a literal "ton of bricks."  But that is not always the case.  If someone were to read a statement such as this 300+ years into our future, they may not have clue what we mean.  There are literally thousands of possibilities for error in a book the size and the age of the Bible.  Mustardseed, the Greek NT that we have today is "what we have" to work with, but unless you yourself have studied these ancient forms of Greek and Hebrew (which shares most of its vocabulary with Aramaic,) then you would not pick up on the nuances or possible errors present there.  There were also many such words that originated in Hebrew and Aramaic culture that could not be accurately translated into Greek. Then to complicate matters even further, when the Greek texts became subject to Latin translations, and then again with translations into English, etc., we really cannot be sure what the original speakers "meant" by "looking at the scriptures alone."  We must therefore go to these early non-scriptural writers to get a better look at what they, in their culture and their time period, were perhaps really talking about.  

Now—where do we go from here?  If you are interested in discussing things with all of this in mind, then someone post a particular question that pertains to such. I will be more than glad to help facilitate productive conversations about some of these topics with those who wish to learn more about and explore deeper into the Christian message.  I will share all that I have learned through the years, but I am also counting on learning a lot from all of you as well!  

To start with: within this one thread there are actually many topics being discussed.  Perhaps I am a creature of organization, but to be honest—this is a very messy thread.  For example, if you want to discuss/debate the "inerrancy of biblical scripture" then someone can create a thread for this—
but if you want to discuss/debate "historical evidence of biblical scripture"—that is another topic all together.  The first is a matter of faith—the second of facts. Personally, I do not think that there is much to learn in either one of these topics.  I really don't think it matters, so I would like to see some different questions come up.

I am looking forward to participating in some spiritually healthy discussions.  I will always be candid (and at times perhaps a bit colorful!) but I will not respond to or with insults, nor will I be baited by being called a heretic should my views disagree with yours—and for some of you, my views most surely will.  

If anyone tries to "bait me" in any way—I will ignore you.  If anyone wants to pose a "question"—I will be glad to jump in there.  But if all you have to offer is "doctrinal answers"—then I am already familiar with what you have to say so don't waste your time on me.  Create a thread that can become a forum for people who do not yet about what you have to offer.  Your position is a starting point, but I have already "been there and done that" and am ready to move on.

Just for the record:  I embrace the prerogative to be wrong.  For me, the "Truth" changes as I spiritually grow and mature.  I have lost count of how many times "Truth" has changed for me in my life.  God is constantly offering me the opportunity for more growth, and it is my daily prayer that I always avail myself to those opportunities and listen intently for that guidance.

SO--let the discussions continue.

Hi,

I have not been following this topic since it got stale for me a couple weeks ago.  Beth, I posted a question in your other thread entitled "Original Christianity vs. Today's Christianity".  You have touched on some of the aspects I questioned you about in that thread here, but I had not yet read it when I posted my reply.  I would greatly appreciate more information as requested in that other thread when you get a chance?  Thank you.  :)

--Soulfire

Thankyou for taking your time Beth sure is nice to have you here and I for one am very much looking forward to it. If you read the thread (I dont blame you if you dont have time ha ) anyway you will find out that it all started with Alanon posting his "warning" it slowly progressed into a more philosofical discussion and I personally entered when RB threw out a challenge ( well actually he said baited I think [;)])for anyone that he was confident that there was not a schred of historical evidence to prove the Bible was anything but a work of fiction. I found that to be somewhat biased and did some research and found the above. Personally I am much more interested in the intrepretation of the scriptures and how modern day evangelicals imn my opinion, "twist" them to use a Bible term , to suit their own purpose. It did however,sound like you were called in to help support  RBs claim that the entire Bible was a fake. I found that ....(just erased offensive) well a bit steep, and as I have no Phd and would be out of my leaque debating that with you , I suggested for someone with knowledge of these things to come forth. It was in no way meant to be a hostile act (I tried to include some of those little smilis but probably sound too serious)ha . I never posted on a list before and have not got a whole lot of experience with stuf like that. Anyway all that said .....welcome [:D]

Thank you Mustardseed!  

This is by far--NOT an easy topic. It is probably the most debated topic in Western Civilization for almost the entire 2,000 years since it all began!!  And--I do not presume for a second that the debate will stop here!! The best that we can do is learn what we can--as we go along.  There is so much to learn--an NO ONE human being has all the answers.  It will take experiences and understandings from many different people and many time periods to really begin to find understanding.

It is good to be here!  I look forward to it as well![:)]

G'day Folks!

First, a big welcome to Beth!  Thank you so much for taking the time to join us here. I'm sure we all have a lot to share and teach and learn. I look fwd to these threads unfolding with great interest.


Take care, Robert.

G'day Folks!

To reply to Allanon/NP's question... on what I consider Jesus to be.
This depends on whether one is talking about Jesus the man, or Jesus the Christ.

All things considered, Jesus appears to be a great initiate and ascended master.


Take care, Robert.

quote:

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Just for the record: I embrace the prerogative to be wrong. For me, the "Truth" changes as I spiritually grow and mature. I have lost count of how many times "Truth" has changed for me in my life. God is constantly offering me the opportunity for more growth, and it is my daily prayer that I always avail myself to those opportunities and listen intently for that guidance.

---

The Truth is the Truth and does not change. With a mind blinded by sin, the light is impossible to tell from the darkness unless there is a renewing of your mind from the Holy Spirit.

One thing I have noticed for those claiming to be Truth seekers in this day and age is the overwhelming stench of uncertainty.

In Christ the search ends.

The Truth yesterday is not the same Truth today for those that are not in the Body of Christ. The twin towers of moral relativism and self worship are all too evident in this forum, and this country as a whole.

Since we have an "expert" in Beth here I am interested what your basic epistemological views are?

Beth, do you believe in Objective Truth?

This should help me limit the topic we are discussing.

BUT THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD WAS TO DISCUSS THE DANGEROUS NATURE OF ASTRAL PROJECTION FOR THE UN - REDEEMED.

quote:

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Originally posted by Beth

DjM, your posts are very close to being correct as I have come to understand Christianity so far.  I agree with where you are going with all of this.  But, I must beg to differ with a few things.  
[/br]

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Evolution progresses via diferentiation.

quote:

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First, it is "Knowledge" that is first and foremost necessary for all understanding.  It IS enough—it is all we have to go on.  Without knowledge, we all fall into error (see paragraph #1 for a common example.)  I cannot speak for you, but, from reading the rest of your posts, I think that a clarification on "knowledge" could be made.
[/br]

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This is a world of constant change.  Knowledge becomes obsolete (i.e. fleeting).  It is true, we must acquire knowledge to build on.  However, we must strive for WISDOM and not knowledge, per se.

Without morality, our world will crumble.  Morality can ONLY be acquired after the culmination of a long striving for WISDOM.  If we could teach wisdom, we'd all be wise.  The truth is: without wisdom, we all fall into error.  Personally, I'll trade knowledge for wisdom any day!  If one understands what we take through the gates of death, one would certainly concur.

Our current state of evolution will not enable us to understand it all- simply put.  Science presents the knowledge of the day devoid of spirit.  Ergo, we are far from the truth.  However, they are still presenting KNOWLEDGE.  This is not wise...

quote:

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[/br]
There are many levels of and ways to acquire knowledge.  One is to take the knowledge that has been compiled before us and learn all that we can from it.  This is the starting point.
[/br]

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If this knowledge does not incorporate the spirit, it is incomplete and incorrect.  One cannot understand the world of effects, unless one studies the world of causes.

Much of the knowledge that has been passed on is void of the spirit.  (I'll leave the details up to you.)  The spiritual scientist understand where/how these bits exist and knows how to fix them.

quote:

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Then there is a more personal knowledge.  This personal knowledge is acquired on an individual basis.  Knowledge of this type ranges anywhere from the conclusions that are drawn from studying the knowledge of others all the way to receiving personal revelations.
[/br]

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The life we live between birth and death is a continuation of the life between death and rebirth.  We're here for the experience.  One must be careful when one accepts the conclusions drawn from others.  Science makes these mistakes all the time.

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And yes, DjM, the mystery schools did thrive on this latter form of knowledge.  BUT, before initiates were allowed to learn the ways of acquiring such "higher" knowledge, many years of education were required, and a strong moral fiber must have been formed within.  
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I have been well taught and am quite aware of exactly what's required of an initiate (hint, hint).

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You are also correct when you say that the esoteric keys are necessary to understand the scriptures.  I have at least a few of these keys that I can share with you.  BUT, I WILL NOT share these in a forum that has the argumentative and negative tone of this one.  
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Personally, I will not share them at all.  These keys are only to be gotten by degrees.  The Mysteries were betrayed in Atlantis!  The definition of insanity is making the same mistakes over and over...

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I will not use the knowledge that I have in a heated argument about the validity of the current interpretation of Christianity.  And that is all that it is--One interpretation—albeit one that has been well hammered out on the anvil of time.  That interpretation needs no more seeking and no more answers.  All has been found for that one and as far as I am concerned, the book is closed.  Apparently it serves it's believers well enough.
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I will use the understanding that I have earned for the benefit of mankind.  The truth is eternal.  We never stop seeking the truth.

All religions have been necessary.  It would be incorrect to claim that one's own religion is superior to another.  However, there is no religion greather than truth.

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I am much more interested in participating in a discussion about different ways to interpret scripture.
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The Gospels are a perfect example of different ways to interpret the truth.  More precisely, each apostle was an initiate of a varying degree.  So, we have each initiate's opinion according to their understanding.

The truth holds many answers.  However, "interpretations" are usually singular.  More specifially,  the authors usually had one interpreation in mind that pointed at an understanding that revealed many answers.

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 And here is where I must disagree with you again DjM.  Going back to the "beginning" or the "age of Saturn" (whenever that was) is fine, but I would like to know exactly what you mean here. Maybe you could share with us the texts that you speak of.
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Surely, you are aware of the Saturn , Sun, Moon, Earth, etc... periods of human evolution?  Without out this "key," one cannot claim to understand our present stage of evolution, which explains the necessity of religion.

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  It was my suggestion to begin with 300 b.c.e.  This date is just a good starting point.  This period is also based upon my own years of study, and I have found that we can learn A LOT from going "back over" the period of 300 b.c.e to 300 c.e.  There is so much history and background material for the development of both Judaism and Christianity that is little known to our society because it was later ignored and not canonized.

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I see.  Would it not be more correct to begin with the first religion and discuss how/why it came about?  The periods that you mention would then reflect their own necessity.

It's a curiosity to me that you never mention the most important aspect of all- the ever-changing constitution of man!  It is religion that has been adapted for man and not the other way around.  One must understand how/why mankind has changed through each period in order to understand how/why religion has changed.

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Originally posted by Narrow Path
Just for the record: I embrace the prerogative to be wrong.

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Personally, I do not "embrace the priviledge" to be wrong concerning spiritual issues.  However, it's your perogative.

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The Truth is the Truth and does not change. With a mind blinded by sin, the light is impossible to tell from the darkness unless there is a renewing of your mind from the Holy Spirit.

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The truth is eternal.  We never stop seeking the truth.  With a mind blinded by predjudice, there can be no light- period.  One must be "like the child" who does not hold jaded views.  Everything in the spiritual world is ever-changing.  The opposite is death, which you described quite well.

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One thing I have noticed for those claiming to be Truth seekers in this day and age is the overwhelming stench of uncertainty.

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Are you sure?  I AM quite certain that I AM a truth seeker.

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In Christ the search ends.

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In Christ the search BEGINS...

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The Truth yesterday is not the same Truth today for those that are not in the Body of Christ. The twin towers of moral relativism and self worship are all too evident in this forum, and this country as a whole.

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Have you always felt this way?

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Since we have an "expert" in Beth here I am interested what your basic epistemological views are?

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Why are you mocking someone who moves toward understanding, when you do not?

Your ego/I appears to need to compare other people's views to your own and condemn them if they don't match your own.  What a curiosity?  We're all at different levels of spiritual development, so there will always be a variance.

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Beth, do you believe in Objective Truth?

This should help me limit the topic we are discussing.

BUT THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD WAS TO DISCUSS THE DANGEROUS NATURE OF ASTRAL PROJECTION FOR THE UN - REDEEMED.

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It's quite obvious that we are helping you.  You certainly deserve a lot of help.  Its interesting to note that your ego believes this thread is to "help you limit the topic we are discussing."  You certainly have placed limitations on us all.

THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS SITE IS TO DISCUSS THE SPIRITUAL WORLD AND THE DANGEROUS NATURE (i.e. underdeveloped) OF NOT DOING SO.

Dear Heavenly Father, I humbly bow before Your Love shown thru Your gift of Christ's blood.  I thank You and praise You for rescueing me from my slavery.  I praise You for giving me the whisper in the dark proclaiming Your Glory and The Promise of living for eternity in the fullness of Your embrace.  I want nothing more than to know You and to let You show yourself thru me.  I pray that the words that have been written by these hands in the Spirit of Love will have power to proclaim Your goodness.  As always Lord, not my will be done, but Yours.

Amen.

   As I see it, by the Light that God has chosen to show me and I was able to see, this whole conversation has constantly been taken down tangents that are relevant to the topic, but miss the main "meat" of the point.  Was Jesus really the Son of God and did He die for our sins, thus making Him our Savior?   I believe the answer to these questions is YES!  With that said, I guess I must try to explain.  As is natural, and perfectly acceptable to my mind, people share the bible with others to show the story of Salvation.  To say to a friend who is in need of comfort "Here's what the bible says!".  This method is a wonderful and ultimately the only way to truely share the Good News of the Gospel of Christ.  But how to share the story of Salvation to people who passionately, vehemently, and, yes, even violently reject the Book of Truth, The Gospel of Christ?  I can't.  So I must come full circle again.  I can't bring to you any shred of the taste, touch, smell, hear, and see evidence that won't be out of hand rejected as conjecture and subjective to this, that, and the other thing.  So I am going to try and appeal to your emotional logic.  

So far, as far as I can see, the more serious thinkers on this topic agree that the bible does hold some "spiritual truth".  Yet, they reject that it has THE spiritual Truth.  Reasons mostly including: passed down from generation to generation.  written and re-written.  Translated and re-translated.  Tampered with by the church and the list goes on.  The arguements seem reasonable.  They are reasonable, IF your assumption is that evil has the power of corrupting a perfect message.  But, if your assumption is that God is Almighty and all Loving, then you must believe He would make sure that whatever message He wants to convey to us as humans would be beyond mans ability to touch.  This is not to say that some things in the bible have not been touched.  The whole of the bible has been altered from its original format.  It had to be for us to even read it today.  So, this text we call the bible has been passed down, written and re-written so the people of whatever day and age they are in can get what they can from it.  Just like Homer's Illiad or Ovid's erotic poems.  Both of these manuscripts have had the same thing done to them as the bible has.  Yet, when we read Homer's Illiad (in an alteration of its original form) we see great depth and imagination along with a few moral points here and there.  We take it for whatever story it conveys.  To put it more succinctly, even though it has had all manners of changes and potential errors made to it we still understand the message it conveys.  The difference here though is that no one expects us to take these other ancient texts as statement of fact.  Why, I ask, does no one expect us to take these stories as literal.  I would put forth as an explanation that as we read the texts and absorb the stories we subconciously test the ideas involved to see if they mesh with our sense of reality.  Of course, in all most all cases they do not.  So, now we have A common thought of what reality is not.  Yet, how do we really know for sure that Homer's Illiad wasn't written intended to be read as fact.  Or when Ovid relates the interactions of men and women to how they relate with the interactions of the gods between themselves.  Of course we have ways to get a "good idea" whether it was intended to be taken literally or not.  But, in the end we have no way of really knowing because we weren't there.  These same principles can hold true for the bible as well.  They hold true for the koran.  They hold true for every historical text.  We must take everything, when we get to the core, on faith.  Just because the sun rose today doesn't mean it will tomorrow, but we're pretty darned sure it will.  Thats all that gets prooved by science.  So, what is it you have faith in?  What do we believe will solve "The Problem".  I believe most of us here do believe that there is something terribly wrong with ourselves and the world we live in.

   So, how does any of that have to do with the bible being God's holy word.  Because it says it is, and I have faith that God is Almighty and all Loving.  Yes, your faith in what you believe is as good as my faith in my beliefs.  So, lets take a look at the root difference between a Christian and anyone else.  This difference is control.  Who's in control? Are you in control?  Or, is God.  Is your faith in your own ability to be good?  Yes it is a very nice thing to be a "good person".  I even wishfully admire people who have acquired the fine art of discipline and adherence to the laws of right and wrong.  God knows i'm a miserable example.  But, in the end, to who goes the credit?  Ourselves.  Faith in ourselves. That is what every other belief system offers.  Its not wrong for wanting to be good.  It is just wrong to think that you are the source of "goodness".  Let us not think,the statement "God is good" to mean that God is a "good person", as though we could define Him in such limited and earthly terms.  But, He is actual goodness.  The very essence of whatever goodness is!  So, when attempting to "BE" good you are actually attempting to usurp God's place.  The original sin.  Lucifer wanted to BE God.  Adam and Eve ate of the fruit because they were tricked by Lucifer into believeing that if they did eat they could be as God.  They exercised their free will by putting their faith in themselves.  You, are not good.  Only God is good, and goodness can only be gotten from Him.  For those of you who believe we are God, I would have to say that this cannot be and there is a line of logic to come to that conclusion as well which I will not include here for purpose of length.

   This is the difference between Christians and all others.  They admit to the fact that we as humans have put our faith in ourselves.  We are in control.  They realize that we are botching it up miserably, as can be seen everywhere you look.  The rape of the land, oceans, forest, men, women, and children!  So, with their free will they choose to believe God's holy word that we cannot BE good.  We submit our will back to God, we give up control, by accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior.  And, like children who admire our older sibling we do our best to mimmic Christ.  We want to be like Christ, but realize we will never be Him.  So,we "watch" Him, thru reading the bible, prayer, and community with other believers.  We do our best to take note of His actions and to do our best to immitate Him.  Most importantly of all though, we "die" with Him.  We no longer want choice between good and evil.  We no longer want control.  We only want to know God.  Nothing else matters.  All else is dust and ashes.  But, we are still in control and that is our struggle.  Our pride, is as great as your pride.  That is why we Christians fail as badly as everyone else.  

   We are the enemy my friends.  All of us.  In rebel territory, under the rule of a hate-ful prince.  God's army presses in all about our borders.  He is rallying His creations to His banner.  He is coming to finally free us.  That is why Narrow Path and exogen and other people such as myself come here to "preach".  We feel that call.  We must try, in our imperfect ways, to show you "the Way, the Truth, and the Life".  So you can feel that call! I beg you, abandon yourself to the Love of Christ with me!

Let us worship the Lord, for He is good!

Your brother in Christ,

Passionate-Fool.

DjM-

You wrote:

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Surely, you are aware of the Saturn , Sun, Moon, Earth, etc... periods of human evolution? Without out this "key," one cannot claim to understand our present stage of evolution, which explains the necessity of religion.

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Actually, not until yesterday did I become aware of what you speak about the Saturn, Sun, Moon, Earth, etc. periods.  I have obviously not been trained in your mystery school.  To speak of these temporal eras are way beyond the scope of what I am trying to deal with here.  My posts concerned the "hermeneutical keys" to the Christian Scriptures (The Hebrew Bible and the NT.)  I do not claim to possess any "keys" that can address our current stage of evolution or the need for religion in the first place.  

As to the secret of these "keys" that I speak of -- for the most part they can all be found in a number of books that you can buy from amazon.com.  I only meant that I was not going to share what I have learned or what my work with these keys has revealed in a heated/negative religiously prejudice forum.  

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This is a world of constant change. Knowledge becomes obsolete (i.e. fleeting). It is true, we must acquire knowledge to build on. However, we must strive for WISDOM and not knowledge, per se. Without morality, our world will crumble. Morality can ONLY be acquired after the culmination of a long striving for WISDOM. If we could teach wisdom, we'd all be wise. The truth is: without wisdom, we all fall into error. Personally, I'll trade knowledge for wisdom any day! If one understands what we take through the gates of death, one would certainly concur.

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I have found that knowledge is the prerequisite to wisdom.  In my opinion--without knowledge you cannot possibly attain wisdom.  I do not see how it can be an either or thing. And once again, my posts were not concerning an overarching wisdom about what we take through the gates of death.  I cannot speak of such things, for I do not know.

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It's a curiosity to me that you never mention the most important aspect of all- the ever-changing constitution of man! It is religion that has been adapted for man and not the other way around. One must understand how/why mankind has changed through each period in order to understand how/why religion has changed.

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Once again, this goes way beyond the scope of what I was addressing.  But I will add here that man creates religion to suit mankind's needs. I cannot reference who said this, but I remember reading "God created man in the divine image, and man has been returning the favor ever since."!!!  I imagine that the world of the spirit is way beyond our narrow scope of religion, and the world of spirit uses religion to address us on the level to which we have the capacity to understand.

To Allanon: what my "epistemological" views are is irrelevant to this particular discussion, as is my personal spiritual path.  I am not here to preach any particular doctrine, but only to share what I have learned about biblical scripture.  My spiritual status and path are my personal business, and I will reveal what that is when I feel comfortable doing so. And this is not a very comfortable forum so far.  

In any constructive conversation/debate everyone needs to be on "the same page."  This thread and the contents found here are "all over the place."  If someone wants to discuss epistemology then open a thread for that.  If someone wants to discuss the evolution of humankind or speculate on the spiritual world, then start individual threads for these. It seems like this is more of a forum to "toot horns" over their personal "spiritual evolution" or even worse their "spiritual status."  I am not into spiritual arrogance.

May peace and understanding somehow reach us all.

Hi Passionate-fool,

I do not feel tat I take credit for my own goodness or salvation.  I believe God gave me everything, including the potential and desire to become good, and each and every opportunity I have to learn and grow.  I believe everyting I am or ever will become is from God.  But I believe God ultimately lets me decide whether or not to take advantage of each and every "opportunity".  So everything that is "me" is from God.  I don't even feel that I can "take crdit" for making the decisions to take advantage of the opportunites to be "good", because without God and the rest of his creation I would not have had the minimum level of love, goodness, or wisdom to perceive or take advantage of those "opportunities".  To the extent that we "contribute" to our own goodness, is also the direct result of God's gifts.

The only ways I disagree with you is that I do not believe I have to accept Jesus's ritual sacrifice or worship Jesus to be saved or to honor God.  I also feel that God grants us absolute free will.  If this is true, then the belief that God would "ensure" the complete accuracy of his word through a particular book would seem to violate the free will he gave us.  You cannot guarantee a specific instance of anything being created by or through human beings without either taking away the free will of the people involved in certain ways, or taking away the free will that people use to decide who will be involved in the process of it's creation.  Since I believe God's truth is available to us through an infinite number of ways, that the Bible being "infallible" is simply not necessary.

If I wanted to, I could write my own Bible, call it the so and so version of the Holy Bible, and fill it with a pack of malicious lies.  If I had enough charisma to convince other people that I was "right", you would have a pretty "nasty" version of the "Holy Bible" floating around.  The thing here is that God would still find a way to use even such a perversion to bring about the higher good in the long term as seen from a higher perspective.  I believe God uses everything, not just the Bible.  To me, it is not that the Bible (or any other instance of creation) is "infallable", but that God is "infallable".

--Soulfire

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As to the secret of these "keys" that I speak of -- for the most part they can all be found in a number of books that you can buy from amazon.com. I only meant that I was not going to share what I have learned or what my work with these keys has revealed in a heated/negative religiously prejudice forum.

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Would you mind telling the name of few of those books ?

Dear Beth and Robert and all
Please forgive me if I appear stubborn about my views, I am truly trying to usderstand your point but am having some difficulty. My problem is this.

The challenge that was thrown out by Robert was, that there is not one shred of archaeologic evidence, proving that the Bible is anything but a made up book. THIS WAS THE SUBJECT AT HAND!!!. In other words, the account of the events in it, i.e. the birth life and death of Jesus, are fake nil and void and but a fairytale. This is how I took it, correct me if I am wrong !!!  People responded in various ways, and I also did some very simple research on the net and found the stuf below plus a mass of other similar info. Robert then responded to the below by asking Beth to participate, but after Beth arrived this has not really been the focus. Instead the focus has shifted to, what is written therein (The Bible). How it has layers, like an onion or a ogre [;)]. This was not the question, at least not to begin with. We are now drawn into this big very complicated but very very interesting debate, or lecture rather, by you Beth,(and I do find it facinating) who obviously has a lot of knowledge about these things.

The fact remains that I have heard nothing from you to disprove the account in the Bible, specifically the fact that a guy namned Jesus walked the earth 2000 years ago and made some pretty big claims about his identity. Since YOU or Robert were not there and have so far shown me nothing to base your view on, (I seem to understand your belief is, that the Bible is a fake).I will have to restate that, it seems to me your doubt in the Bible the sacrefice of Jesus etc is nothing but a BELIEF. Thus I find it easier to agree to disagree. I have no problem with you having a different faith than me, but the challenge Robert threw out appears to be based on HIS faith and not some wealth of archealogic findings, disproving the Bible. Do you agree on that Robert?? Allthough I did feel it was wierd to be called untrue (normally one is innocent till proven guilty!!)and having to justify my Belief in the Bible, I did and though you passed over it very lightly you seem to agree that the below referances are correct and valid. It seems clear that the scriptures were written way back, but why and how and for what reason is still somewhat of a mystery.!!Am I right in assuming this??

On another note I find it somewhat  unfair that this forum will single out Christianity and yet be open for beliefs of the most outrageous kind, agression and every form of odd wierd belief system without challenging or questioning them, but I guess you do have other things to do than sit at the computer all day , so that might be why [;)]. People here on the forum are talking with aliens and folks from the stars for goodness sakes [xx(]and that is believed or accepted as a possibility. Carlos Castaneda, though by his own admission is a fake is heralded as a great Spiritual teacher etc. To me, the madness is overwhelming and it seems like pure and simple SPIRITUAL ANARKY . No absolutes no rules no right no wrong. Take whatever you wish and proclaim it God, a rock a crystel yourself of the Pleiadeans or whatever they are called. A SPIRITUAL SMORGASBORD and BUFFET style dining room, where people fix their own meal according to taste. Is this the way you believe the astral / spiritual world works?

I am totally in agreement though, that the Bible is not lived by the vast majority of proclaimed Christians and that the Churches are in gross darkness and their using the scripture as a justification is outrageous and erroneous . The Bible and early Christianity is way deeper and very icnoclastic eto say the least. Anyway they will have their reward and are much more accountable Jesus said to the Church of his day the scribes and faricees "because you say you see therefor your sin remains".

To sum it up I find it, as I said problematic, that you will not admit that the BELIEF in the Bible as a REAL manuscript (although possibly changed altered and taken to and taken from) is a possibility, and  I can only conclude that you resist admitting tothis possibility becourse it would mean YOU COULD BE WRONG. !!!!!!!!What do you think!!

I sense in both of you as well as in some of the moderators a very exclusivism sort of attitude . A sort of condesending tone (I hope it is not so) , that you are more knowledgable , teachers and not really as I had hoped, fellow travelers. I have in every way tried to see you as equals and respect you and learn from you seeing we share a very pivotal experience , having OBEs, but sadly I do not feel it is recipocated. I believe this intuitive feeling to be the Spirit of God and what we Christians call dicernment. I furthermore think that you should consider the possibility that you have built around yourselves a BELIEF SYSTEM, that matches your experience. That you work in reverse. I think you have rejected the notion or possibility of something higher than you, behind it all, a creator if you will , and have changed it to the "overself" etc It is all in you and you have made yourselves God.

I include the stuf I found on the net by a guy called John Oakes , it is really beyound me but sounds valid enough to be included in the discussion.

(qoute)
Many critics of Christianity claim that the Bible we read today has been changed in major ways since the originals were written.  For example, some have claimed that there are "hundreds of thousands of errors" in our present Bibles.  Some have claimed that the Catholic Church in the fourth and fifth centuries made major revisions of the Bible in order to support their own peculiar doctrine.  Still others have claimed that certain inspired books have been kept out of the Bible (for example the Gospel of Thomas).

       All of these claims rest on the assumption that we do not have available to us the original New Testament writings.  Although it is true that we do not have actual copies of the original manuscripts of the gospels or the letters, what we do have is very solid evidence that the current Greek text of the New Testament is extremely reliable.  

       Our Greek text is based on some very ancient manuscripts.  Some of the most important manuscripts available today are listed below.

1.  The Codex Vaticanus, or Codex B.  The Codex Vaticanus is a vellum codex on 759 pages in uncial script.  The manuscript has been dated to around AD 350 .  It contains the entire New Testament, except Hebrews 9:13-end, I and II Timothy, Titus and Revelation.  It also contains all of the Old Testament in Greek except the first few chapters of Genesis and several Psalms.  The manuscript has been kept in the Vatican since at least 1481.

2.  The Codex Sinaiticus, or Codex Aleph.  The Sinaiticus manuscript received its name because it was discovered at St. Catharines Monastery on Mt. Sainai in 1844 by the biblical scholar Tischendorf.  It was found in a basket of old parchments which were about to be thrown into a fire.  This manuscript is now in the British Museum.  Like the Vatican manuscript, it has been dated to around 350 AD.  It contains much of the Old Testament in Greek, but most significantly, it has the entire New Testament in Greek.

3. The Alexandrian Codex, or Codex A.  This is a fifth-century codex, containing most of the Old Testament and all the New Testament except a few pages of Matthew, two from 1st John and three from 2 Corinthians.  This manuscript was found in Alexandria in Egypt, but was given as a gift to the king of England in 1621. The manuscript is now located on the British Library.

4.  The Washington Manuscript.  This manuscript from the end of the fourth century contains the four gospels.  It is especially significant, as it contains Mark 16:9-20, unlike the three manuscripts already mentioned.

5.  The Chester Beatty Papyri.  This is a collection of a number of papyrus codex fragments, located in the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin, Ireland.  One of the papyri contains thirty leaves of the New Testament in Greek which have been dated to the late second or early third century (ie. around 200 AD).  Another includes 86 of 104 leaves of the letters of Paul from around from the early third century.

6.  The Bodmer Papyri.  This is a group of manuscripts found in the Bodmer Library of World Literature.  Included are a complete manuscript of Luke and John dated to 175-225 BC, as well as a manuscript of over half of the book of John which has been dated as early as 150 AD.

7.  The John Rylands Fragment.  This papyrus fragment contains only John 18:31-33 and 37,38, which would make it an insignificant find except that it has been dated to 130 AD.  This fragment was copied within fifty years of the death of the apostle John.

       From this list, one can see that we have manuscripts of the entire Bible from about 350 AD and of significant portions of the Bible from around 200 AD or before.  Claims that the New Testament was added to, subtracted from or changed in any significant way are indefensible in the light of this evidence.

        Additional evidence in support of the accuracy of the New Testament we have in our hands today is found in the writings of the early church "fathers."  Writers such as Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr and many others wrote extensively in the first and second centuries AD, quoting from a large proportion of the entire New Testament, providing further evidence in support of the accuracy of our New Testament text.

        As to the claims that there are "hundreds of thousands of errors" in our New Testament text, this is based on the nearly ten thousand manuscripts which we have.  Virtually all the supposed errors are minor slips of the pen of the many scribes who copied the Greek New Testament.   Through careful analysis of the thousands of manuscripts, scholars are able to reproduce a Greek text which is a virtually exact copy of the original.  
(end qoute)

My kindest regards and thanks for the time you have spent and are spending on this subject.

Mustardseed

PS I do apologise if I sound severe, I am very challenged by the conversation and still believe you have been shown some very important truths. In order to lighten the above missive please place these smilies where ever you feel I get too serious or stern[;)][:P][:)][:I][:o)][:D][xx(][:)][;)][:P]

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Originally posted by DjM

 there is no religion greather than truth.

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omgwtf Blavatsky reincarnated

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Originally posted by Passionate-fool

A bunch of jesus stuff

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omg allanon reincarnated.. again... with worse grammar.



Theosophists seem to be the more arrogant of their kind.. whether it's justified arrogance or not I couldn't say.
I can say that because I'm a wanna be myself :P

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omg allanon reincarnated.. again... with worse grammar.



Theosophists seem to be the more arrogant of their kind.. whether it's justified arrogance or not I couldn't say.
I can say that because I'm a wanna be myself :P

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Hey Tab why not go somewhere else and spread your ignorance.

Have a little respect for people or get out of my thread.
If you have anything to contribute concerning the subject do so, if not GO TALK ABOUT MEDIUMSHIP OR SOME OTHER OCCULT CRAP.

Thank You.

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The only ways I disagree with you is that I do not believe I have to accept Jesus's ritual sacrifice or worship Jesus to be saved or to honor God.

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Then you are not a Christian. There is no common belief among you.

A Christian puts Jesus first.

All others put man first.

Simple.

Robert and Beth,

There have been previous posts here dealing with the HISTORICAL PROOF that you wanted.

Please respond to these.

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Originally posted by Narrow Path

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The only ways I disagree with you is that I do not believe I have to accept Jesus's ritual sacrifice or worship Jesus to be saved or to honor God.

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Then you are not a Christian. There is no common belief among you.

A Christian puts Jesus first.

All others put man first.

Simple.

---

Not so simple, and also not so accurate.  True, I am not a Christian.  However, I do not put "man" first - I put God first.

You seem to believe that because I do not worship Jesus as God, that I cannot worship God at all.  I understand why you believe that, but I do not feel it is "accurate".  I also do not feel that such a belief and judgement on your part reflects very much of the love of Christ.

--Soulfire

Narrow Path:

I have seen no "historical proof."

Besides, written "History" is NEVER the WHOLE TRUTH.  "History" is always decided upon by the one that is speaking/writing at the time. There are always at least two sides to every story--and usually more than two. Further, no two people ever remember a shared experience "exactly the same way" even just hours later.  This is ever more exacerbated when it involves countless people over hundreds of years.  In the case of Western Civilization, Christianity "wrote the history books" that were used for centuries--and for very good reasons not many people argued with the Chruch--think Galileo and where the earth is actually now known to be located in relationship to the rest of the solar system. Thank goodness things are very different today.  

I have NEVER denied that Christianity has a "history." Christianity has a very long and complex history.  To make a claim that it does not, would be totally absurd on my part.  Scripture however, has NOT been proven to be a "factual" historical document in and of itself, but you are not going to learn in Church how or why that is the case. Why would they want to teach that it is not?  To believe in the NT as "history" is a matter of faith and belief, and no one here could argue that your faith and belief are extremely important to you.  If being a Christian helps you to be a peaceful loving person in the image that the NT offers of Jesus, then I have no argument that.  But Narrow Path, you just don't sound very peaceful--or very loving.

Hi,

I do not believe Beth came here to "debunk the Bible".  I think she is just trying to show ways that the Bible has value that are not purely literal interpretations.

As for having documents dating back to 350AD that are accurate reflections of the Bible's contents, think about that for a second.  That means that the closest semi-complete set of records you have about those events was written THREE HUNDRED YEARS after Jesus died.  Can you imagine what you would have if somebody wrote their personal account of the 9/11 or the OJ trial in year 2300?  I don't know offhand what the average life expectance was in those days, but think about how many generations passed in 300 years.

Don't get me wrong, I have said many times that I firmly believe the Bible contains a LOT of truth, even if you just take it at face value.  But if you do take everything at face value, there are also a lot of contradictions.  I think what Beth is saying is that most of those supposed contradictions "go away" if you look beyond the literal level.  I do not know nearly everything she does, but a lot of what she sais makes absolute sense.  I can at least see the possibilities of what she is saying.

I honestly think you are a little too caught up in perceiving this as an "us" vs "them" battle that is limiting your ability to clearly understand what people are trying to say.  Beth is not your enemy here.  Nobody is your enemy here.  :)

--Soulfire

(You said)I have seen no "historical proof.".......Besides, written "History" is NEVER the WHOLE TRUTH.

(Answer)
I compleately agree with you there, those were actually my words earlier in the thread,history books are written by the folks who win the war. But How can you disagree with the literature list that I included saying it is flawed and not conclusive while at the same time include qoutes of your own and literature lists expecting us all to take them as more truthful. That is not consistant. (and this is not even mentioning your "Key" research which I certainly would call a theory and not actual historical evidence.)
---------------------------------------------------
(you said)
There are always at least two sides to every story--and usually more than two. Further, no two people ever remember a shared experience "exactly the same way" even just hours later.  This is ever more exacerbated when it involves countless people over hundreds of years.

(answer)
I agree again and state as above. What makes your version more correct your books more accurate. This principle goes all the way around Beth.  
----------------------------------------------------
(you said)
I have NEVER denied that Christianity has a "history."

(answer)
No I never said you did, The issue at hand is (and I repeat) Robert said something like (dont have time to get the actual qoute) there is not one shred of archeological evidence that the Bible is anything but a fake. In other words it must then be a lie, Jesus is then a fiction of someones imagination. and a fairytale. This was the thread and the discussion.
-------------------------------------------------
(you said)Scripture however, has NOT been proven to be a "factual" historical document in and of itself.

(answer)
Well then you believe that the litereture and statements I included above are fake, made up, or misintrepretated. Please tell me what you base this claim on!!I also never said it was factual accurate but SUPERNATURAL  ALIVE and has a life of its own."  In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the word was God , The WORD WAS MADE FLESH and dwelt among us and we beheld its glore the glory as of the only begotten Son of God full of Grace and TRUTH.
-----------------------------------------------------
(you said ) To believe in the NT as "history" is a matter of faith and belief,

(Answer ) Please read my post. I never said otherwise and I stated that I believe in it !!However by the same account I have not yet seen you disprove that it could have happened the way I explained. That God has a Son that he was put to death for our sins and lives today in the Spirit and empowers believers from there with his Holy Spirit. The changes and ommisions and the whole cabodle taken into consideration. If the Bible and the words therein is a LIVING THING as we Christians believe , they could have found their way down through the ages and still be the Word of God. This is my point and I think that you should be more academic or whatever and not just say "you cant prove thet" I DONT HAVE TO. You should prove that it is fake could not have happened is impossible and without doubt a lie.
-------------------------------------------------------

Regards Mustardseed

Here is some more info and what I believe to be proof at least it sounds plausible it concerns a Josephus Flavius a much respected secular writer and historian from the 1st century. Try to search on his name and you might score as much as 500.000 hits in all languages.

Josephus was born in 37 A.D., just a few years after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. He was the son of a priest named Matthias and at the age of 19 he became a Pharisee in Jerusalem. Later in his life he was appointed a commander in Galilee during the Jewish revolt against Rome.
     After surrendering to the Romans, he was taken before the Roman Commander Vespasian and prophesied that God had shown him in a dream that Vespasian and his son Titus would soon become Emperor's of Rome. Shortly afterwards the dream became reality and Josephus became a member of Vespasian's household. During his stay in Rome he wrote two works dealing with Jewish history.
     
In his work entitled Jewish Antiquities, which was written between 70 and 100 A.D., he mentions Jesus the Messiah.  Josephus is quoted below by Eusebius, an early Christian Bishop, in 324 A.D.:
   
          "It was during this timeframe that Jesus lived, a wise man, if anyone could really call him a man. For he did many deeds that were out of the ordinary and was an instructor of those who accept the truth. Many of the Jews and Greeks put their trust in him. He being the Messiah. When our chief leaders accused him, Pilate condemned him to the cross, but his original disciples continued to follow him; for he had appeared before them on the third day alive again, as the prophets of God had spoken of these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of Christians, who had been named after him, remains to this present day."   
         A later Arabic manuscript written by a tenth-century Melkite historian named Agapius also quotes from the same passage of Josephus as follows:   
         "During this time there was a wise man named Jesus, and his actions were good, and he was known to be holy. Many people among the Jews and from other nations became his followers. He was condemned to be crucified and to die by the order of Pilate. But those who had become his disciples did not stray from his teaching. They proclaimed that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was restored to life. Thus, he may have been the Christ of whom wondrous things have been spoken of through the prophets. And the Christians, who were known by his name, have remained to this very day."   
         These statements confirm the following Christian truths found in the bible:    
                          
   1) Jesus was the Messiah spoken of by the prophets.     
       
   2) He performed miracles.   
                       
   3) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.    
   
       4) He arose from the dead three days later and appeared to his disciples.   
   
   

More on Flavius Josephus:
http://josephus.yorku.ca/links-texts.htm
http://josephus.yorku.ca/pdf/J_Sievers_ppr.pdf

Is this accaptable as historical evidence or do you believe it to be flawed. Please explain.

Regards Mustardseed

quote:

---

Narrow Path:

I have seen no "historical proof."

Besides, written "History" is NEVER the WHOLE TRUTH. "History" is always decided upon by the one that is speaking/writing at the time. There are always at least two sides to every story--and usually more than two. Further, no two people ever remember a shared experience "exactly the same way" even just hours later. This is ever more exacerbated when it involves countless people over hundreds of years. In the case of Western Civilization, Christianity "wrote the history books" that were used for centuries--and for very good reasons not many people argued with the Chruch--think Galileo and where the earth is actually now known to be located in relationship to the rest of the solar system. Thank goodness things are very different today.

I have NEVER denied that Christianity has a "history." Christianity has a very long and complex history. To make a claim that it does not, would be totally absurd on my part. Scripture however, has NOT been proven to be a "factual" historical document in and of itself, but you are not going to learn in Church how or why that is the case. Why would they want to teach that it is not? To believe in the NT as "history" is a matter of faith and belief, and no one here could argue that your faith and belief are extremely important to you. If being a Christian helps you to be a peaceful loving person in the image that the NT offers of Jesus, then I have no argument that. But Narrow Path, you just don't sound very peaceful--or very loving.

---

Well Beth the Historical evidence is there so take that for what it is.

If you dont trust historical evidence than what do you trust as "Truth"? You seem to be open minded to the point that you are a skeptic. What is the "Truth" to you Beth? Is it a matter of your personal perspective?

Moral Relativism at its finest. Most "highly" educated people prescribed to just that.

Once you know the Power of Christ there is no need for psycho babble and circular reasoning. The Truth is the Truth.

Dearest Tab,

quote:

---

omgwtf Blavatsky reincarnated

---

Apparently you feel it appropriate to call upon God and to use profanity in the same sentence.  I also noted how you attempt to present yourself as superior by removal of DjM's individuality.  Thus, taking away his uniqueness, making him "less" of a creature of God.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Passionate-fool

A bunch of jesus stuff

---

True.  Though, it somehow misses the point.

quote:

---

omg allanon reincarnated.. again... with worse grammar.

---

Again, we have the use of God's name in vain and a ripping away of my personal uniqueness.  With the added bonus of belittlement.

quote:

---

Theosophists seem to be the more arrogant of their kind

---

I actually had to think for a good couple of hours to remember what theosophist meant.  I'm not quite sure I fall under your label on this one my friend.  As for arrogance?  I believe my post spoke for itself.

quote:

---

whether it's justified arrogance or not I couldn't say.

---

I really liked this one.  You actually BELIEVE in arrogance that is justifiable.

quote:

---

I can say that because I'm a wanna be myself :P

---

At least we can end on an encouraging note.  I am glad you realize that you aren't an all knowing entity.  I would ask though that you keep your "wanna be" status to yourself since you have no idea what I do "wanna be".

I love you.
God loves you more.
May the peace that passeth understanding find you.

Passionate-fool.

Soulfire,

I will attempt to address your response as soon as I can.  I take a lot of time to write anything intelligible :).  So i'll get back to ya.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Bruce

G'day Folks!

A fun topic by the looks of it all....

But it has a serious side.

I have known a number of devout born again type christians to experience spontaneous OBE.  They have told their church that they were 'taken up' and shown visions.  This is recieved well by churches as the 'terminology' used to describe OBE experiences fits their paradigms.

This only goes to show that it is not so much the experience of OBE, but the 'terminology' used to describe it that matters to devout christian type people.

On a more serious note, this type of fundamental christian view of OBE can cause a great deal of harm.  Many christians, including ministers, I have know and helped, who have experienced OBE related symptoms, eg, paralysis, rapid heartbeat, vibrations, etc, interpret this as major satanic attack.  The symptoms thus needlessly terrorize and traumatize them, when they are actually just harmless and natural phenomena.

With regard to 'letting go of ones mind', or emptying the mind, etc, newage and Eastern terminology also gets in the way. If you use terms like 'focusing the mind' or 'clearing the mind' or 'quietening the mind' then christians take less offense.  The act of clearing the mind involves strength and discipline, and such a mind is far less vulnerable to negative influences than any other 'non disciplined' mind.

Keep all this in mind when you discuss these matters with christians as a simple change in terminology can overcome most such arguments.

Also, I always wonder about the other 80% of the world's population that are non christian when I come across this type of dogmanic argument. But then again, they probably think the same way about the christians.

Btw, are you aware that there is absolutely 'no' historical proof to support 'anything' written in the new testament?  The only thing that supports biblical history is the bible itself. This is fact that can be ascertained through historical records and university religious studies. The earliest historical evidence of christianity and the bible are a few late-third century 'fingernail sized' fragments that historians consider could 'possibly' be fragments of a very early version of the bible.

There is a big difference between 'popularly believed' history and 'real' history that can be supported by hard evidence.  However, most christians are not interested in the 'real' truth, only in the 'comfortable' truth.

Also note that freedom of thought is 'actively' discouraged in fundamentalist type christian churches, where members are told what to think and what to believe, so this situation is likely to remain unchanged.


Take care, Robert.

---

Hang on there a second Robert.  I consider myself a christian and I don't necessarily go for "organized religeon", but your comment that "there is no historical proof in the New Testament" is a complete and utter lie!  Don't get me wrong, I am not attempting a fight here or to convert your soul! Thats between you and whomever you think did or did not make you.  But that comment was made in ignorance of commonly accepted and proven scientific studies of history and archealogy.  So...unless you can prove what your saying, maybe you should try to remain opened minded and remember we all have something worth offering here.  Whether Christian, muslim, hindu, etc....   Or are you prejudice against Christians?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adrian

Greetings Allanon,

Whilst we most certainly respect your right to believe in anything you will, evangelising on these forums will get you nowhere at all.

Please support your claims and positions with facts and experience.

I would like to followup on an excellent point made by Robert:

quote:

---

Btw, are you aware that there is absolutely 'no' historical proof to support 'anything' written in the new testament? The only thing that supports biblical history is the bible itself. This is fact that can be ascertained through historical records and university religious studies. The earliest historical evidence of christianity and the bible are a few late-third century 'fingernail sized' fragments that historians consider could 'possibly' be fragments of a very early version of the bible.

---

All of christianity is based around the words contained in the bible, which is, in and of itself, extremely suspect. What fragments have been found were translated and retranslated, interpreted and reinterpreted by the various factions of the church, all with view to creating a religion to control the masses. To that end they succeeded to a certain extent, notwithstanding the extreme genocide and bloodshed that seems to have followed religion throughout the centuries, and the "commandment" "thou shalt not kill".

If the bible was presented as evidence of the happenings of 2000 years ago, then it would be rejected outright as hearsay.

Please feel free to contribute your views, but when you make remarks like:

quote:

---

All this projection and letting go of your mind just allows the Devil to get a stranglehold on your soul.

There is no other Way out of this.

You may think that you will "live forever" after you die but that is exactly what Satan's first lie was. If you want eternal life and happiness with God you must accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour and turn to the Word of God. The Bible is absolutely true no matter what "evidence" Satan puts on the table.

---

Please support it with evidence, and remember, the bible is inadmissible.

Finally a word of caution. In the lower Astral there are levels known as the "belief system territories", some of which are analogous to "hells". These are the places people are attracted to after they pass on from the physical world due to strongly held religious beliefs they will not let go of. Only when the residents there see there beliefs for the illusions they are can they progress to the mid-Astral worlds and higher where most decent people dwell.

I would respectfully suggest you consider these things deeply.

With best regards,

Adrian.

---

Adrian you poor Hypocrite you! If Robert is right and he isn't, where is his/your proof that there is no historical truth to the bible.  This is a very ignorant statement whic I can disprove, and how embarrassing for you and Rober Bruce if I do so.  This is such a passionate subject and people tend to talk before thinking.  Don't be so dogmatic and closed minded.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adrian

Greetings Allanon,

Whilst we most certainly respect your right to believe in anything you will, evangelising on these forums will get you nowhere at all.

Please support your claims and positions with facts and experience.

I would like to followup on an excellent point made by Robert:

quote:

---

Btw, are you aware that there is absolutely 'no' historical proof to support 'anything' written in the new testament? The only thing that supports biblical history is the bible itself. This is fact that can be ascertained through historical records and university religious studies. The earliest historical evidence of christianity and the bible are a few late-third century 'fingernail sized' fragments that historians consider could 'possibly' be fragments of a very early version of the bible.

---

All of christianity is based around the words contained in the bible, which is, in and of itself, extremely suspect. What fragments have been found were translated and retranslated, interpreted and reinterpreted by the various factions of the church, all with view to creating a religion to control the masses. To that end they succeeded to a certain extent, notwithstanding the extreme genocide and bloodshed that seems to have followed religion throughout the centuries, and the "commandment" "thou shalt not kill".

If the bible was presented as evidence of the happenings of 2000 years ago, then it would be rejected outright as hearsay.

Please feel free to contribute your views, but when you make remarks like:

quote:

---

All this projection and letting go of your mind just allows the Devil to get a stranglehold on your soul.

There is no other Way out of this.

You may think that you will "live forever" after you die but that is exactly what Satan's first lie was. If you want eternal life and happiness with God you must accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour and turn to the Word of God. The Bible is absolutely true no matter what "evidence" Satan puts on the table.

---

Please support it with evidence, and remember, the bible is inadmissible.

Finally a word of caution. In the lower Astral there are levels known as the "belief system territories", some of which are analogous to "hells". These are the places people are attracted to after they pass on from the physical world due to strongly held religious beliefs they will not let go of. Only when the residents there see there beliefs for the illusions they are can they progress to the mid-Astral worlds and higher where most decent people dwell.

I would respectfully suggest you consider these things deeply.

With best regards,

Adrian.

---

Adrian you poor Hypocrite you! If Robert is right and he isn't, where is his/your proof that there is no historical truth to the bible.  This is a very ignorant statement whic I can disprove, and how embarrassing for you and Rober Bruce if I do so.  This is such a passionate subject and people tend to talk before thinking.  Don't be so dogmatic and closed minded.

Mustardseed --

Even though I could discuss Jospheus and the nature of Jewish midrash during the early rabbinical period, as well the historical significance of ancient literary documents and many other relavant topics--I think I am going to pass.

I have come to the conclusion that my participation on these threads was a bad idea.  I am already frustrated and I want to leave before I do get sour. The whole "tone" of this discussion makes me tired...I did not come here to be insulted nor did I come prepared to "defend myself"...To be frank, I feel like I have BEEN the soccer ball [B)]...So, here you go....I was wrong.

By the way:

All I have to say on this can be found under the "Early Judaism/Christianity" section.

Hi,

I really don't want to debate the validity of the Bible anymore.  It simply is not my intention to discourage anybody else's beliefs or to "argue".  Besides, I do not even necessarily believe I am "right".  It's just my opinion.

With the best possible intentions I depart this discussion by stating what beliefs I think we have in common rather than where I differ:  

1) I believe much of what the Bible sais is spiritually valuable.
2) I don't believe anybody who reads the Bible with love in their heart can possibly go wrong by it.

That being said, I say goodbye to this and other similar topics.  I will still follow the threads about the contents and interpretation of the Bible, but not the "debate" about the Bible itself. God bless.  :)

--Soulfire

Well dear Beth I am really and truly sorry to see you leave. I do apologise if I have offended you. I am very very interested in your research and would like very much to read it. It sound a lot like the much talked about Bible code. However I felt that since Robert made these statements, and claims, I should do my best to answer, or atleast try to explain how it works for me and how I see things. This is a debating forum and meant to be a place where people bring their questions and what they believe to be answers.
Anyway I wish you all the best and wish you would stay.

Kind regards and respect

Mustardseed

...
amazing you guys should get your panties in such a bunch over my post, which was mostly directed at DjM.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Narrow Path

Hey Tab why not go somewhere else and spread your ignorance.

Have a little respect for people or get out of my thread.
If you have anything to contribute concerning the subject do so, if not GO TALK ABOUT MEDIUMSHIP OR SOME OTHER OCCULT CRAP.

---

Last I remembered this was a public forum and I had the freedom to have however much respect I or the administrators deem necessary. You should probably be grateful you still have the privelage of posting here, considering the number of offensive and hypocrytical posts to your name. Aside from that, I find it funny you should call me ignorant ESPECIALLY right above the sentance "GO TALK ABOUT MEDIUMSHIP OR SOME OTHER OCCULT CRAP.".
Same for you and your anthropomorphized history book.

Moving along...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Passionate-fool


Apparently you feel it appropriate to call upon God and to use profanity in the same sentence.  I also noted how you attempt to present yourself as superior by removal of DjM's individuality.  Thus, taking away his uniqueness, making him "less" of a creature of God.

---

... scuse me?
First off, omgwtf and the many variations are part of my online vocabulary, mostly in parody of the many widely used internet acronyms such as that. If you have a real problem with it, take it up with a moderator.

I never presented myself as superior or DjM as inferior (not even gonna comment on the creature of god thing). I was mostly referencing the quote "there is no religion higher than truth", which is a memorable quote from The Key to Theosophy if memory serves me correctly. I'm sure he would have understood what I meant. Wow, esoteric theosophist communication and unintended at that! How crazy.

quote:

---

Again, we have the use of God's name in vain and a ripping away of my personal uniqueness.  With the added bonus of belittlement.

---

sorry, but with all these generic christians popping up suddenly with a small post count and allanon changing names all the time, I'm just going to assume that they're all him. I mean you.

quote:

---

I actually had to think for a good couple of hours to remember what theosophist meant.  I'm not quite sure I fall under your label on this one my friend.  As for arrogance?  I believe my post spoke for itself.

---

This part wasn't even directed at you. Last I checked, you weren't the one quoting Blavatsky. Sorry for the confusion, but no, I didn't see any indication that you were a theosophist, whereas DjM appears to be one and a damn good one at that.

quote:

---

I really liked this one.  You actually BELIEVE in arrogance that is justifiable.

---

Uh.. yes. Theosophy contains a lot of supposed truths. If the truths are as they seem, the arrogance of real theosophists in having the keys to wisdom may indeed be justified and correct.




Sorry for being 'offensive', this is mostly my posting style on other forums. Maybe it's the wrong atmosphere for it, but don't be so grave about it. Yeesh.

[edit]
nooo Beth! (http://www.animemusicvideos.org/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_cry.gif)
I sincerely hope I haven't contributed to your distress in this thread, but if I have, you have my apologies. I've really enjoyed your posts and appreciate your coming to this forum even for the short time it was.

Dear Robert
I feel a bit bad about the way things have turned out. It was never my aim to discourage anyone. Anyway I hope that we can just agree to disagree. I value your input and all that you give and share in these forums, and your very insightful books. In conclusion I would say that what I see as the thing that remains is and what we can agree upon is, that the Bible is a mysterious book. It stirs up tempers divides people into believers and unbelievers it inspires some and enrages others. It is believed by faith and the mysteries therein will most likely not be revealed in its entirety for some time yet. Do you think it is time we close the thread and just agree to disagree before the gloating and unkindness and further arguing continues. As I say I am a bit taken back that Beth left the forum and feel a bit to blame, maybe I could have been more diplomatic. I believe we have many things in common and maybe we should all look for the things we agree about rather than argue about things that stir up these heated debates.

Regards Mustardseed

G'day Punkyou!

To preface, as I have said a number of times already on this thread, should you care to read back, I made the statements in question to steer this thread in a new and more productive direction.  If you read back in this thread you will find it clear that its original theme was to aggressively debunk and attack anyone who did not believe in exactly the same way as the person who started this thread.  This also included biblical/christian-based debunking of astral projection, meditation, Eastern religions, and etc. This is commonly called 'bible bashing'.  The title of this thread is clearly an open admission of this.

Throwing bricks of bible text at people and using heavy handed emotional blackmail (eg, you'll all go to hell if you don't agree), while trivializing and denouncing out of hand all opposing debate and evidence offered as false, no matter how kind and reasonable and how much factual or experiential evidence offered, is completely and totally unreasonable.

It seems that its ok for christian fundamentalists to dump on 'everyone' who disagrees with them.  But the moment persons try to argue their points, or open up discussions to examine the sources of their opposition (and the validity of those sources), as used to debunk (as any good scientist would do under the same circumstance), the christian fundamentalists immediately shout that they are being unfairly and unjustly treated. And now I am accused of being a liar who is prejudiced against christians, which is totally untrue. I treat everyone equally, no matter their religion or belief or non belief.  

The originators or this thread and 'some' (not all) who have taken part so far have at times shown extreme prejudice towards everyone who does not hold their exact same beliefs. I thought it only fair that they should get some of their own medicine.  They drew the proverbial line, they threw the first stone, but now they seem to be sitting back saying 'how dare you shed doubt' on our sacred texts and dogmas.

And you wonder why people are leaving churches in droves... oh the insanity of it all...

As for my statements that 'outside the church and bible' there is little or no 'historical' proof to support the events depicted in the new testament, this is a matter for conjecture, not for accusations, stone throwing, and 'kill the unbeliever' type sentiments. If you are not up to this level of fair and impartial debate, then either stop posting to this thread or learn how to conduct a proper 'philosophical' discussion. In particular, I suggest you read up on the philosophical rule of 'charity' relating to the debate process.

I explained earlier that I am out of my depth in this level of discussion on the roots of early christianity.  I also explained that I have invited Beth, an expert in said field, to contribute to this discussion.  Beth is not here to debunk christianity, as I've said countless times, but to share her knowlege on these matters.

With respect, to accuse me of being a liar is, in essence, accusing me of fabricating what I have said. This is a very one-sided and unreasonable attack on my post. I am entitled to my opinions, just as you are entitled to your opinions. Any differences of opinion are open to discussion, nothing more.  I could, along the same lines that you have used, also accuse you of being a complete and utter liar.  But insults and stone throwing will not get us very far in a philosophical sense, you must admit.

If you want to accuse a person of something in future, it would be far more effective if you did your homework and cited something specific, rather than just saying 'in general' that you think that person is a liar. You also might like to consider rephrasing the statements you might use in such a case, so they are kinder and less confrontational. This approach will lead the way to a productive resolution, whereas a harsher approach (like the one you used with me), could easily fall into unproductive schoolyard brawling; in which of course I would refuse any involvement.

So, Punkyou, what 'specifically' are you accusing me of telling lies about? Some kind of evidence upon which to base your accusation would be very nice indeed.


Take care, Robert.

quote:

---

Originally posted by punkyou
where is his/your proof that there is no historical truth to the bible.  This is a very ignorant statement whic I can disprove

---

How in the world could someone prove that there is no truth to the bible?  You can't prove a negative like that you can only point to the fact that there is no proof supporting the claim of the bible being true unless if you have some.

---------------------------------

A note from Robert Bruce:

I have posted my comment directly here so that it does not get lost pages hence. I have never said that there is no truth in the bible. I believe it is a masterpiece that contains a great deal of spiritual truth. My earlier point was relating to 'historical' proof of the actual events portrayed in the bible. RB.

Well it looks like we have some people a little riled up here.

Back to the base of ths post.

What, if any, goodness, comes from projecting into unseen realms when you have no standard for which to base your experience on other than your own imperfect nature?

It is like climbing a mountain with no map and no gear and especially no rope. It is putting yourself at the risk of possible influences which you are not able to identify. Meditation in order to clear the mind and embrace.....NOTHINGNESS???

How is this Love and how is this finding yourself? The Truth is the Word of God made full in the Son of God. What about Jesus is so bad? How is anchoring yourself to Christ a problem for you people? Why do you insist on relying on the fallible knowledge of man rather than trusting in the Way that is said to be Pure, Just, and Noble? Do you think all of these "Born Again" people are just blowing this out of thier butts or what? Do you see this type of confidence in Truth coming from the pagan way of life?

No.

I remember reading a book called "What the Buddha didnt teach". In it the writer went to a sect of meditators in the east and meditated for a year. Do you know what he came up with after all that meditation?

That the point ot life is that there is no point.

This is coming from a man that WANTED the Truth so bad and the release from bondage and what he got from it was uncertainty, madness, and depression.

There is only One Way to peace and that is by giving your will to the True force of Love which is Jesus Christ.

What is the point of projection wothout God?

What do you hope to achieve?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Narrow Path


What, if any, goodness, comes from projecting into unseen realms when you have no standard for which to base your experience on other than your own imperfect nature?

---

Though nobody is perfect, I find actual experience is much more reliable then blind faith and what some fanatic tells me to believe out of fear of hell.  Like Einstein said: "All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it."

quote:

---

What about Jesus is so bad?

---

I personally don't think there is anything bad about Jesus himself he had a great message.  The horrible thing is the way people twist his message for their own purposes that should be considered blasphemy.  

quote:

---

Why do you insist on relying on the fallible knowledge of man rather than trusting in the Way that is said to be Pure, Just, and Noble?

---

This is just your belief and beliefs are extremely fallible.

quote:

---

Do you think all of these "Born Again" people are just blowing this out of thier butts or what? Do you see this type of confidence in Truth coming from the pagan way of life?

---

Probably, I don't know much about pagans but what these born again people believe has no effect on reailty.  Most other religions have followers who feel just as strongly about their beliefs but they can't all be the one way.  What makes your religion better then others?

quote:

---

There is only One Way to peace and that is by giving your will to the True force of Love which is Jesus Christ.

---

How exactly do you know this?  

I dont really know alot of these things, but im going to give it a try to discus this matter whit you guys/girls (and beth if she cares to come back [;)]).

quote:

---

(you said)
There are always at least two sides to every story--and usually more than two. Further, no two people ever remember a shared experience "exactly the same way" even just hours later. This is ever more exacerbated when it involves countless people over hundreds of years.

(answer)
I agree again and state as above. What makes your version more correct your books more accurate. This principle goes all the way around Beth.

---

This other version and books show a other point of view, that indeed doesnt mean they are more correct, but it does raise the question "If my version no the only one, how can i be sure it is the truth".

Also I think the things beth say are logical, so could very well be true, but i still question them like i try to do whit everything so i dont lock myself down at one side of the argument.

Belief is taking something for true whitout any evidence.When your saying disprove the bible or its true, your kinda living in a upside world, if you want to convince people of your point of view, YOU have to show the prove.

Now this is the same for people who want to convince that the bible isnt true, they should give evidence that its not true.

Written text is not evidence, because you cant be sure of its orgin and in what context its meant to be viewed.To get REAL FACTUAL evidence for any belief that orginated so long ago is impossible.

Again the people who wanna disprove the bible have the same trouble, they cannot get the evidence to disprove it either.

So in short its useless to go and talk about proving or disproving the bible, because in the end it stays a matter of belief on either side.

What we can do is discus theories whit theory, logic and questions, ofcouse we have to be very carefull not to get cought up in the belief debate again.

Now let me present a theory;

I recently read up on the gnostism.

What they are saying goes something like this.

Can comething that is made absolutly perfect and good ever turn even a little evil ?

No, then it wasnt perfect to begin whit.Then was man ever perfect and how come we became sinners(from bible point of view)? Witch started whit adam and eve eating the forbidden fruit.

Its either because we are never made perfect by god or he couldnt make  us perfect, because he wasnt so himself.

Now in the first case the bible says we ARE made perfect, so those that mean the bible lied, god lied to us, but why?In the second case how come he himself isnt perfect.

In gnostism its believed the god of the bible is the false god and that he didnt make us perfect.They belief there is a higher authority than the false god.

Now what did the false god mean whit the fruit, was it really his doing to test us or did the fruit mean something else, more abstract.Did it perhaps mean that the fruit was an abstract meaning of escaping the the false god.

Well i have to be hounest this isnt a perfect presentation of the gnostic view, but it does show you abit insight in their beliefs.

Look here for a more indepth view;
http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

Gnostism was strongly believed in the time the bible was created(or believed to be created) and presents a intresting alternate view on Genesis. Something to think about.

So to close this post; i think there is alot of wisdom in the bible both on surface level as a deeper level, but there are other works outside the bible that diserve the same respect. Beliefs can just aswell be based on those other works.

~, Akensai [:D]

Narrow Path,

It has become plainly obvious from your posts that you have little to no intention of discussing this matter in a constructive manner such as Robert and Beth are attempting to do. In fact you have no wish to discuss these issues at all. Your inflexible vewpoints demand of you that you only ever TELL us what "the truth" is. Beyond that you're mind is locked, and you've no desire to open it up to anything outside of your views. I do hope that you eventually grow out of this phase, and find out for yourself that life is not about absolutes.

Dear Beth,
I do hope you will be able to forgive all this narrowmindedness and mudslinging that has plagued this and other threads. Your knowledge and comments really are a breath of fresh air here. Being someone who experienced and indeed involved myself in the inflexible doctrines of some christian churches, your revelations here about what has been hidden within the pages of the bible are fascinating. I had lost all respect for the bible as a result of modern church teachings, but you have very nicely opened up a whole new aspect to these texts that give them back their validity and meaning for anyone on a spiritual path, christian and non-christian alike.

Kind regards,
James.

(You said)
It has become plainly obvious from your posts that you have little to no intention of discussing this matter in a constructive manner such as Robert and Beth are attempting to do. .........I do hope that you eventually grow out of this phase, and find out for yourself that life is not about absolutes.

(answer)
I do however. and have tried to do so in a kind manner. Maybe life is not about absolutes for you but maybe it is to many others, do not attempt to tell us "what life is" or is not about, that depends entirely on who you are.

Dear Robert Bruce and Moderators

Let me first state for the record that I am also sorry for the loss of Beth, that said I would like to draw again your attention to the thread and the issue at hand.The Issue to me were the following statements by you that I have compiled below

(Robert Bruce said)

There is a big difference between 'popularly believed' history and 'real' history that can be supported by hard evidence.  However, most christians are not interested in the 'real' truth, only in the 'comfortable' truth.
----------------------------------------------------------------
The only thing that supports the bible is the bible. I say again:  there is no historical evidence to support the new testament.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Wherever this topic is going, I think its healthy. Whoever you are and whatever you believe in, in Western society you will eventually come across born agains, baptists, christian fundamentalists of all types. So, here is an opportunity for everyone to test out their wit and mettle in this arena. So debating here has merit for everyone.

On a personal note, I would like to see the christian fundamentalists posting here go head to head with a person with a Phd level in religious studies. They would 'blow' them out of the water, I kid you not.

I have made a few comments here, and thrown some bait, but none has been taken.  I say again, there is 'no' historical proof to support what is in the bible. The only thing that supports the bible is the bible itself. This is fact, provable, etc. Anyone want to take the challenge?????  

My religious schollar friends tell me that christians 'hate' this mention, re its true and cannot be debated. Fact.

I also love the way that christian fundamentalists only take what they like from the bible, and ignore the rest.

(end Qoute)


I feel it is unfair that you talk about narrow mindedness as if it is only on the side of those who believe in the Bible. There have been many slurs against myself and Narrow path has his share of it too. I find it problematic that I have tried to comply to the challenges thrown out by Robert and Beth and what in my opinion was an surprising and outrageous claim, it seems that neither wants to address the literature I have qouted. It seems I am being ignored. I have tried to cunduct myself in every way as a gentleman, and be polite but have debated the subject without grandiose claims and allegations. I have certainly also at times felt the victim. I have furthermore spend time trying to research their claims , wanting to be open to the truth, and found a overwhelming amount of what seems to me to be "proof" by Christian and SECULAR historians as well, what they said did not exist. I would like to ask what you would have had me do. Please read my comments. Do you feel that I have not discussed the matter in a constructive matter. With all due respect to Beth it does seem she did not expect people to opose her statements, but maybe expected that everyone would just sit back and let her make unsubstantiated claims. This is however a internet forum and not a lecture hall, and did not happen. The tone is a bit rough here at times (we all know that and get a bit sensitive at times), a whole lot more like the real world in a way. I state again to Robert (since Beth left). Well then, how about it, Would you mind reacting to my posts and the included information. You threw out the challenge!!! . I am not even saying that what I have written is the absolute truth Robert, but does it have any bearing at all. I am as interested in finding the truth as I assume you are. With all due respect, I do not feel that I am "blown out of the water " I kid you not either [;)]

Regards Mustardseed

And for the record I am also pretty fed up with the Bible bashing, mostly done by Narrow Path. It feels very "yucky" in the spirit. He does not have a very kind way with words, that is for sure and it bears witness of a very autocratic selfrighteous spirit, with no love for anything than his own way and views. Literally a person who would kill for his cause. Pretty scary. I did send him a personal email asking for peace which he ignored so what to do!!!. I do hope to continue posting on the thread and forum and believe the best thing i just to ignore him, he has shown his true colors as a judge of men, certainly not a kindhearted loving forgiving type person. He seem to fit better in the old testament seeing himself as a mighty prophet of God whose job it is "to slay the false prophets"

I say to you Narrow path woe that you be not a judge of men "judge not least you be judged for with the same meassure you mete to others it shall be meeted unto you" You will reap what you sow, all in good time. I know that you might return this with abuse, but Mark my words!!

Regards Mustardseed

Hi everyone,

I tried to say this before, but apparently I did not communicate well.  Beth is not here trying to prove the Bible is false.  Just because Robert made a comment saying there was no "historical evidence" to support the Bible, and later invited Beth to the discussion because of her extensive Bible studies, does not mean they are ganging up trying to "disprove" the Bible.  Maybe Robert hopes to gain a new perspective just as much as he hoped maybe we would appreciate it?  [:)]

If you really look back over what she has said, she supports the validity of the Bible!  The only place where you and she seem to differ on your beliefs about the validity of the Bible is that she has come to believe there is even more truth in the Bible than is apparent on the surface.  If you really want to debate the validity of the Bible, I think you would do better to find somebody who actually thinks it is false first?  [:D]

My understanding is that she came here more to share some of her insights and experiences than to argue or debate.  I for one hold a much less critical view of the Bible than I did before she came here, and it sounds like James and maybe others have similar experiences.  Thanks to Beth, I can see where maybe some of the things I thought were "wrong" with the Bible were more a result of my limited understanding of it than any actual "falsehoods" or "errors" of the Bible.  [:)]

Beth has restored my interest in the Bible by showing me new ways to look at it.   Just having people tell me "it is the absolute truth and I am being deceived by Satan if I don't believe it" would never have reached me.  In fact, that kind of approach pushes me further away from the Bible because to me it demonstrates a lack of compassion and love that I find it easy to blame (unfairly) on the Bible.  I guess you could say that I was judging the tree (the Bible) by its fruits (how the people who profess to read the Bible and follow its teachings manifest the love of Jesus in their day to day lives).  Part of my problem with Christianity back when I was a Christian was that I felt most of the Christians (myself included) demonstrated less love and compassion for other people than the non-christians.

I guess I would conclude by saying maybe we should judge our own "tree" by our own "fruits"?  Maybe we should look at our own lives and how much we actively demonstrate love and compassion to other people in our day to day lives and use that as a "measurement" of how well we are really listening to God's truth and Jesus' message.  It was flawed logic on my part to judge the Bible by the fruits of the people who read it.  The only thing you can accurately judge by the fruits of the people who read the Bible is how well they are listening to and understanding the truth that is there.  Thanks to Beth, I see that again...  [:)]

--Soulfire

Dear Soulfire

(You Said)
Beth is not here trying to prove the Bible is false.  Just because Robert made a comment saying there was no "historical evidence" to support the Bible, and later invited Beth to the discussion because of her extensive Bible studies, does not mean they are ganging up trying to "disprove" the Bible.  Maybe Robert hopes to gain a new perspective just as much as he hoped maybe we would appreciate it?  [:)] If you really look back over what she has said, she supports the validity of the Bible

(Beth said)
Many people today, want and perhaps need the Bible to be the ultimate source of wisdom regarding the divine realm. The Church has done well in making that the case. The nature of humankind in relationship with "fiction" has taken care of the rest. People tend to "believe" in the fictional sometimes much more than their own experience. . I became afraid because of the latter--......who was I to tell the good people that their scripture was just a fictional creation?


Well I beg to differ . The above qoutes is what she said. She seems to believe that the Bible is a "work of fiction" making the life of Jesus a fairytale and ultimately his sacrefice a lie. Wouldn't you agree? I do not believe that she was trying to discount that there is a lot of wisdom in the Bible or that it was not well "constructed" or that it did not hold great moral truths. But she and Robert did state it was FICTIONAL, and furthermore challenged anyone to a debate!! In fun saying that they would "be blown out of the water". I am not that smart nor educated, I actually dropped out of highschool but I just did a bit of research and included it. Shortly thereafter Beth decides to leave, Robert gets offended that someone called his statement a lie. (at least it seems he did) and still, after all that, the Statements that I made and literature list I included for consideration are not even mentioned, and to top it off people like yourself come running to their aid, defending explaining etc. And remember I am not that religious or doctrinated , I am not even here to push Christianity. I came here in this forum solely to learn about OBEs and appreciate Roberts insight and wisdom and Beths research as well, more than they will ever know. He helped me a lot man. Ok so all I ask is that he adress my research and substantiate his claim. Is that too much to ask.

Regards Mustardseed

Hi,

Ok, I can sort of see why you could conclude that if that was all you read of everyting she has written.  In my opinion that particular paragraph you quote was not clearly written and was a little confusing.  My understanding of this is that she was referring to how some of the Bible was written in terms of "stories" that still relay the truth with total integrity.  Like maybe Eve was not literally created out of Adam's "rib bone" and maybe she did not literally pluck an "apple" from a "tree", but that these "stories" still contain the absolute truth in principle.  Her point that this "story" approach to literature was possibly done to avoid persecution or in a similar manner to Jesus' use of parables seems very reasonable.  An example of this is the parable of the prodigal son.  This parable is just a fictional story that Jesus used as an illustration.  I interpret Beth's comments about how people are sometimes more receptive to "fiction" probably explains the reason why Jesus so often chose to use parables in his teachings rather than having any ontention to insult the Bible.  Does this make any sense to you?

If you look at the entire content of what she has written, this would seem to be much more consistent with the rest of the information she has shared with us.  I don't think she would spend 10 years of her life studying the Bible and boldly proclaim that it has all kinds of amazing spiritual truths and then turn around and contradict that by saying the Bible is a worthless piece of fiction.  Look over everything she has said yourself and then re-evaluate that paragraph you quoted in the context of the rest of her material.  Or better yet, just ask her for clarification if you are confused what she believes?  :)

--Soulfire

Thank you Soulfire for helping me out here.  I tried to address this in one of my posts, but I guess that I failed to communicate it properly.  So,

Mustardseed--Let me see what I can do to clarify my statement.
I am not a literature scholar--so I am ill prepared to actually split the hairs here. But, according to Websters:

Fiction is 1a:something invented by the imagination or feigned;specifically:an invented story b: fictitious literature (as novels or short stories)c: a work of fiction;especially:NOVEL 2a: an assumption of a possibility as a fact irrespective of the question of its truth *a legal fiction*  b:a useful illusion or pretense 3:the action of feigning or of creating with the imagination.  

And Fairy tale: 1: a story (as for children) involving fantastic forces and beings (as fairies, wizards, and goblins) —  called also fairy story  2: a made-up story usually designed to mislead

Please note the highlighted definitions.  The first can be based upon realistic life situations.  BUT that does not mean that they are intended to be representative of blow-by-blow details of actual happenings.  They "could" be true, but, it is not the "truth" of the situation that the text is concerned with.  It is rather, with capturing the possibility of a situational event in a written or oral form.  In other words, it is not intended to be held up to what we consider today to be "scientific proof."

Further, I do NOT think that scripture is a fairytale. However, in my opinion, some interpretations are.

Anything written of the past, most especially decades or even centuries after the fact, cannot be held up to scientific proof.  There is none.  It is gone.  However, this does not mean that the written work has not captured in some way, the essence and/or moral of the story.  I use the word fictional here because the texts were written long after the period of time had passed.  AND, I do not think that it is the validity of the blow-by-blow accounting of the situations that really matter.

A tremendous amount of the bible is written in Parable--a form of "allegory" with a moral or religious message. These are all very valuable if we can see what the parable is trying to communicate.  

Here is a scriptural reference that may help:

Proverbs 1
1The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:
2 for attaining wisdom and discipline;
for understanding words of insight;
3 for acquiring a disciplined and prudent life,
doing what is right and just and fair;
4 for giving prudence to the simple,
knowledge and discretion to the young--
5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance--
6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
the sayings and riddles of the wise.
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools despise wisdom and discipline.
8 Listen, my son, to your father's instruction
and do not forsake your mother's teaching.

I think that this is the very best that any fictional work could attain to.  And I think that the bible--if seen in the proper light--and approached in search of all that it has to offer--is perhaps the highest and very best fictional work that has ever been written.

I really hope this helps.


 

quote:

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I think that this is very best that any fictional work could attain to. And I think that the bible--if seen in the proper light--is perhaps the very best that has ever been written.

---

The Bible is a very good fairy tale indeed!! One that has massive quantities of verified prophecy to accredit to the wishful "tale".

Narrowpath, I know that you see it as a fairy tale.  I disagree.

Dear Beth welcome back I am glad you decided to stay and keep going. I read your posts and in honesty I must admit that I do not understand what you say.[:I] Sorry I am a bit disadvantadged as english is not my first language and I have to look a lot of words up in a dictionary. Let me ask you. Do I understand you say that the Bible is a work of fiction but not nessesarily a lie??  That the accounts therein are not written at the time they happened but could be an account of what appear to have happened. !!! I believe that the words are ALIVE and changes and transforms in whatever language or mind they appear. I am still a bit in the dark and hardly dare ask seeing all the contention that seems to surround the subject  but what do you think about the stuf I included. I will include it again for your convinience. It sounds like there is something to this dosnt it.

Robert stated that:

"are you aware that there is absolutely 'no' historical proof to support 'anything' written in the new testament? The only thing that supports biblical history is the bible itself. This is fact that can be ascertained through historical records and university religious studies. The earliest historical evidence of christianity and the bible are a few late-third century 'fingernail sized' fragments that historians consider could 'possibly' be fragments of a very early version of the bible "

How does that relate to this:

Our Greek text is based on some very ancient manuscripts. Some of the most important manuscripts available today are listed below.

1. The Codex Vaticanus, or Codex B. The Codex Vaticanus is a vellum codex on 759 pages in uncial script. The manuscript has been dated to around AD 350 . It contains the entire New Testament, except Hebrews 9:13-end, I and II Timothy, Titus and Revelation. It also contains all of the Old Testament in Greek except the first few chapters of Genesis and several Psalms. The manuscript has been kept in the Vatican since at least 1481.

2. The Codex Sinaiticus, or Codex Aleph. The Sinaiticus manuscript received its name because it was discovered at St. Catharines Monastery on Mt. Sainai in 1844 by the biblical scholar Tischendorf. It was found in a basket of old parchments which were about to be thrown into a fire. This manuscript is now in the British Museum. Like the Vatican manuscript, it has been dated to around 350 AD. It contains much of the Old Testament in Greek, but most significantly, it has the entire New Testament in Greek.

3. The Alexandrian Codex, or Codex A. This is a fifth-century codex, containing most of the Old Testament and all the New Testament except a few pages of Matthew, two from 1st John and three from 2 Corinthians. This manuscript was found in Alexandria in Egypt, but was given as a gift to the king of England in 1621. The manuscript is now located on the British Library.

4. The Washington Manuscript. This manuscript from the end of the fourth century contains the four gospels. It is especially significant, as it contains Mark 16:9-20, unlike the three manuscripts already mentioned.

5. The Chester Beatty Papyri. This is a collection of a number of papyrus codex fragments, located in the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin, Ireland. One of the papyri contains thirty leaves of the New Testament in Greek which have been dated to the late second or early third century (ie. around 200 AD). Another includes 86 of 104 leaves of the letters of Paul from around from the early third century.

6. The Bodmer Papyri. This is a group of manuscripts found in the Bodmer Library of World Literature. Included are a complete manuscript of Luke and John dated to 175-225 BC, as well as a manuscript of over half of the book of John which has been dated as early as 150 AD.

7. The John Rylands Fragment. This papyrus fragment contains only John 18:31-33 and 37,38, which would make it an insignificant find except that it has been dated to 130 AD. This fragment was copied within fifty years of the death of the apostle John.

and this:

This research concerns a Josephus Flavius a much respected secular writer and historian from the 1st century. Try to search on his name and you might score as much as 500.000 hits in all languages.

Josephus was born in 37 A.D., just a few years after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. He was the son of a priest named Matthias and at the age of 19 he became a Pharisee in Jerusalem. Later in his life he was appointed a commander in Galilee during the Jewish revolt against Rome.
After surrendering to the Romans, he was taken before the Roman Commander Vespasian and prophesied that God had shown him in a dream that Vespasian and his son Titus would soon become Emperor's of Rome. Shortly afterwards the dream became reality and Josephus became a member of Vespasian's household. During his stay in Rome he wrote two works dealing with Jewish history.

In his work entitled Jewish Antiquities, which was written between 70 and 100 A.D., he mentions Jesus the Messiah. Josephus is quoted below by Eusebius, an early Christian Bishop, in 324 A.D.:

"It was during this timeframe that Jesus lived, a wise man, if anyone could really call him a man. For he did many deeds that were out of the ordinary and was an instructor of those who accept the truth. Many of the Jews and Greeks put their trust in him. He being the Messiah. When our chief leaders accused him, Pilate condemned him to the cross, but his original disciples continued to follow him; for he had appeared before them on the third day alive again, as the prophets of God had spoken of these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of Christians, who had been named after him, remains to this present day."
A later Arabic manuscript written by a tenth-century Melkite historian named Agapius also quotes from the same passage of Josephus as follows:
"During this time there was a wise man named Jesus, and his actions were good, and he was known to be holy. Many people among the Jews and from other nations became his followers. He was condemned to be crucified and to die by the order of Pilate. But those who had become his disciples did not stray from his teaching. They proclaimed that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was restored to life. Thus, he may have been the Christ of whom wondrous things have been spoken of through the prophets. And the Christians, who were known by his name, have remained to this very day."
These statements confirm the following Christian beliefs found in the bible:

1) Jesus was the Messiah spoken of by the prophets.

2) He performed miracles.

3) He was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

4) He arose from the dead three days later and appeared to his disciples.



More on Flavius Josephus:
http://josephus.yorku.ca/links-texts.htm
http://josephus.yorku.ca/pdf/J_Sievers_ppr.pdf

Is this accaptable as historical evidence or do you believe it to be flawed. Please explain.

I am really not so deep but very interested in these things hope you dont mind.[:)]

Regards Mustardseed

And by the way how do you account for the prophesies that are fulfilled even to this day does that not infer Divine presesce and guidance.??

Man it seems that this topic has gone way off from what was originaly posted.  I really want to know what Allanon is trying to get at accusing people of saying that we are going to 'live forever' even if we don't accept Jesus.  I haven't seen one topic that says we will live forever when we die.  So far no spirt has come to me and said. "you will live forever, just don't belive in Christ."  Frankly all spirits I have talked to, have been real nice, they don't promise things and don't bother me when I don't want them to.  I just fail to see your reasoning for telling people what they should do even though we are given free will, this is one reason that I lost faith in the Bible.  I still respect the religion, but don't respect the people that try and shove it in my face and say "this is the truth".

Sorry if I have come off as offencive to any Christains on the board, the religion is a good one with many morels, but the people who preach it are easily corrupted, such is the way of all people.

quote:

---

Man it seems that this topic has gone way off from what was originaly posted. I really want to know what Allanon is trying to get at accusing people of saying that we are going to 'live forever' even if we don't accept Jesus. I haven't seen one topic that says we will live forever when we die. So far no spirt has come to me and said. "you will live forever, just don't belive in Christ." Frankly all spirits I have talked to, have been real nice, they don't promise things and don't bother me when I don't want them to. I just fail to see your reasoning for telling people what they should do even though we are given free will, this is one reason that I lost faith in the Bible. I still respect the religion, but don't respect the people that try and shove it in my face and say "this is the truth".

Sorry if I have come off as offencive to any Christains on the board, the religion is a good one with many morels, but the people who preach it are easily corrupted, such is the way of all people.

---

Van,

The fruits of astral projection and new age thinking is this.

A BELIEF IN AN IMMORTAL SOUL.

This is Satan's first lie and it still holds true today. If you look to Gen 2:7 I can explain more.

the LORD God formed the man [5] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.


Man's soul DID NOT exist until you were first made physically. That is you dont have a soul that pre - existed your birth. It is the combination of

A. Your body
B. The breath of God
which =
C. Your soul

As we look to the modern spiritualist movement and what this board tries to teach we can see the deception quite clearly.

They beleive that without A or B there is still a soul.

Most here prescribed to the NDE mentality and immoratality of the soul false doctrine. They believe that when they die they have a part of them that "lives on". This is the lie of the Serpent. When you die you are dead. You will not know anything. There is no magical Light that speeds you off to bliss.

This is due to the deceptions of the evil one.

He wants you to believe that you will not be judged. That the sins of this life bear no consequences. But a scholar of the Bible realizes that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. And all men will be DESTINED TO DIE ETERNALLY DUE TO THIS SEPERATION FROM GOD. The false teachers want you to be fooled into thinking that life will go on and you will eventually attain perfection WITHOUT the blood of Christ. This is the New Age deception and the fruit of astral projection and meditation when done in opposition to the Word.

After death dont expect a magical ride to the stars. Expect a judgement. I recommend you make sure your butt is covered rather than trusting in man. Just believe in Jesus and the finished work of the cross. You will find peace this way.

Delve into the Word the Right Way. That is ask God for what He would have you know. Dont go looking for secret codes and signs. Just take the message for what it is.

A Hope for eternal life with God.

quote:

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Narrowpath, I know that you see it as a fairy tale. I disagree.

---

I was being sacastic Beth. The Bible is no fairy tale. I thought you knew where I stood on the Objective Nature of the Word of God.

Weirdly enough I agree with you on the soul thing Narrow Path, we don't know exactly if the Bible is true or not it is a matter of opinion, but it is still a question of the human soul.  If the Bible wasn't real then where do we come from and how were we born, this is the only thing that I have yet to fiqure out if God isn't real.  I still think he exist and I wouldn't go making a deal with the devil, but still not all spirits you meet on the astral are nessicarily bad.  

But it still isn't nice to go and slap stick other religions, you can tell them once and if they don't want to don't force them, after all God gave us free will, I say let them do as they please, as long as you are looking out for their well being person wise that is still helping them, but trying to get them to convert when they say that they don't want to is only hurting them and as from what I have heard this isn't God's Will.

quote:

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Originally posted by Narrow Path

the LORD God formed the man [5] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.


Man's soul DID NOT exist until you were first made physically. That is you dont have a soul that pre - existed your birth.

---

Actually I would think this biblical quote DISPROVES your thinking altogether instead of vice-versa. It is stating that God's breath contained man's soul in it, that man's soul did exist before it became a physical being but it existed within and as a part of God. It implies that God breaths out and propagates life, and perhaps breathes in and re-absorbes life. Once again, the quote merely implies not that man's soul did not exist before his body, but that it indeed existed as a part of god which came off of/out of god to become a living existing being.
Good job being a paradox, christianity, I mean allanon.

Mustardseed:

Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this.

You wrote: Do I understand you say that the Bible is a work of fiction but not nessesarily a lie??

Fiction does not mean a "Lie."  Fiction is a "story."

According to Webster's Dictionary, to LIE is 1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2: to create a false or misleading impression: to bring about by telling lies

You wrote: I believe that the words are ALIVE and changes and transforms in whatever language or mind they appear.

I agree.  While words are not sentient and therefore cannot defend themselves or clarify themselves, they are "alive" in the sense that through their use, LIFE can be described and recorded.  Fiction "describes."  

On Robert's statement:  

"Historical Proof" requires many things.  Today, we have driver's licenses, passports, credit cards, car registrations, etc., to "prove" who we are.  Oftentimes we are required to provide 2 forms of identification.  This to show that we possess evidence that we are who we say we are.  In order to insure that a historical record is kept, we periodically fill out a "census" that records and provides a "history" of who is who and where they were at the time the census was taken.

"Proving" that certain events took place, has always been an extremely difficult thing to accomplish.  Even today, with all of our technologies, we still require DNA testing to show "absolute" proof.  However, even the results of "tests" can be altered through the paperwork.  SO..."proof" of anything is NOT a simple matter. A large scale current example of this is Weapons of Mass Destruction. A much smaller scale is the everyday disagreement of who said what to whom.  You know, "But you said ...."  "No...that is NOT what I said" etc.

Now, to "prove" that certain people really existed and that certain "events" really happened hundred of years in the past, or even decades for that matter, we require the same kind of proofs.  While they are very old and fragile, we are very fortunate to have a good many ancient documents. These documents are very informative about the way people lived a long time ago. But despite the fact that in ancient times they too required a periodic "census" (even the Bible speaks of this) there is no evidence that any of the people in the Bible ever existed by these names.  We have censuses from a lot of different ancient sources.  We also have ancient written records that account for many things--anywhere from military activities to shipping laden records.  What we do not have, outside of the bible, are records from any other source to verify that the events as contained therein really happened.  What makes this necessary is that we do have other records from that same time period, but these records mention NOTHING about biblical events.  Yes, there was turmoil.  Yes, there were religious persecutions. We have records of those.  But we do not have records of specifics that match those in the Bible.      

On the texts that you list:

Your list of ancient documents is just fine.  As a matter of fact, I know of some that you did not list.  However, as your list states, the earliest text that we have is in the Ryland collection, dated circa 130 c.e. Yes, this is a "very small" fragment, but it's date only proves that the actual verses had already been written in 130.

Neither Robert nor I are making the claim that ancient texts do not exist.  Of course they existed. To claim otherwise would be absurd.  But just the mere existence of these ancient texts does not prove that they contain historical facts.  It only proves a history that the texts existed—not the actual content of the texts.  Where Robert made his error was with this next statement:  "The earliest historical evidence of christianity and the bible are a few late-third century 'fingernail sized' fragments that historians consider could 'possibly' be fragments of a very early version of the bible "  This, he did get wrong, dates and wording.  But in the context of what he is saying overall, his point (I think anyway) is that the historical claims made in the NT were not only recorded after the fact, but much later after the fact. But (like I said above) there are no other supporting documents from any other source to verify any of these accounts as historical.  

Okay. On Josephus Flavius: I am very familiar.  If you will read your post again, you will see that to avoid "capture" or "death," Josephus "surrendered" to the Romans.  The only reason that he even survived this ordeal was because he had a dream that came true. The work that you speak of, Jewish Antiquities was written by a Jew for Jews.  So were the NT scriptures. It was also his agenda to preserve the Jewish way of thinking--which in part is also reflected in the NT.  While he did mention Jesus as this quote shows, his main focus was on other Jewish things.  His mention of Jesus was actually a relatively small part of all that he wrote. His primary focus was on the events during and after 70 c.e. when the Romans destroyed the temple in Jerusalem.  According to him, this was a much bigger deal for the Jews. BUT—here again, we do not have substantiating evidence from any other source that verifies that everything that Josephus says is true.  If things really happened as Josephus (and/or the NT) state, we should most especially have something from the Roman records that we have that would substantiate these claims. But we do not.

In the quote by Eusebius (the early 4th century Christian Bishop that you mention) first please note the entire sentence: It was during this timeframe that Jesus lived, a wise man, if anyone could really call him a man.  This quote is very important because, during Eusebius' day (4th century) it was being "hotly argued" as to the nature of who/what Jesus was. No one knew for sure. These are the elements of the basic argument made very simple: 1) was Jesus born part human and part deity, 2) did he become a deity later in life, or 3) was he ever really human at all.  This was a very big controversy, and brought with it a great deal of problematic implications. It never was (and still isn't) definitively agreed upon.  As to the rest of Eusebius' quote, he is just paraphrasing from the gospel accounts that we have already established existed by the 4th century.


You wrote:  Is this acceptable as historical evidence or do you believe it to be flawed. Please explain.

I will summarize:  All of this is historical evidence that documents existed that tell of certain events.  But—these documents do not provide historical evidence that the events actually happened.  For example, we have written texts that predate the 1st century.  These documents speak of the Greek pantheon, e.g., Zeus, Hera, Athena, etc.  The mere existence of these texts, do not prove that Zeus and Hera ever really existed.  Does this make sense?  

Finally, you wrote:  "And by the way how do you account for the prophesies that are fulfilled even to this day. does that not infer Divine presence and guidance??"  

I do not recall ever making the claim that the Divine is not present among us.  As a matter of fact, I have posted exactly the opposite.  

Very patient and lucid post Beth, kudos [8)] If i may ask a question though?  you made referrence to a comment that you made previously about the bible being a work of "fiction", in marked contrast to the idea that it is a "lie".  after you have given us the common dictionary definition of those two terms, I really wonder if the term "lie" is more appropriate that "fiction".  This is for the NT cannon only.  I feel that the OT and related Semitic works contain esoteric stories that contain a people's heritage of mystery wisdoms.  The reasoning behind my questioning of the term lie being more applicable to the NT cannon is really based on what i know of the Nicea council.  From what i understand, this was convocation of leading priests and bishops that came together to create the NT.  in essence creating a mythos of the man named jesus, specifically for purposes of deception and control of the general populus.  many gnostic texts of varying schools where circulating within the region and the Romanized Church was looking for a way to really consolidate and solidify its power base.  During that time many gnostic texts and schools were dubbed "heretics" and not of the "orthodoxy".  interestingly enough, many of the works that were subsequently banned were texts dealing with the INNER nature of PERSONAL SALVATION....so my questions is, can you help to illuminate the nature of the Nicea Council, what it was really for, either confirming what i understand to be a relative historical fact, or let me know what i have received that is incorrect about this important event in western religious history.  thank you again for your lucid and thoughtful sharing of your knowledge

Thankyou Beth
For once I understood your post after reading it only once. Ha Shows more about me than you[:I] Well I would say that in view of the above I am satisfied. I as you might have read earlier do not put a lot of importance on the historical conclusive evidence. All I wanted to say and stand up for was this. The Bible as we know it now and Jesus's story life death and resurection, could be true!! We as Christians might not have "hard" evidence (the door plate of his house, his old shoes or his mothers diary with kodak snapshots of him growing up ) but there is a amount of circumstansial evidence (learned that term from TV shows[;)] ) that IT COULD HAVE HAPPENED. No one else has proof that it did not. This once again makes Faith in the Bible and Jesus a choice. All we have is Ancient manuscripts, accounting the story of a man who claimed to be the Son of God (however we put it) who went around and seem to have done some pretty amazing things and even rose from the dead, and it is then up to each individual if they will believe in them or not. Right !

I am very happy that you had the guts to correct Roberts statement and qualify it a bit and thanks for clearing up these things I will study it some more . Did you by the way look up the words Forever "aeon" and the difference between Hades Gehenna and sheol. I fould that very facinating as I am a believer in the Christian "doctrine of Reconsilliation".

Regards Mustardseed

Beth,

quote:

---

But despite the fact that in ancient times they too required a periodic "census" (even the Bible speaks of this) there is no evidence that any of the people in the Bible ever existed by these names. We have censuses from a lot of different ancient sources. We also have ancient written records that account for many things--anywhere from military activities to shipping laden records. What we do not have, outside of the bible, are records from any other source to verify that the events as contained therein really happened.

---

This simply is not true.  There are names and places of things in the Bible for which archaeology has accounted for, even things which for decades were denied by archaeologists to exist.  There may not be documents that have been found, something I will check into, but certainly numerous other artifacts have been found that do verify people and places.

quote:

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But in the context of what he is saying overall, his point (I think anyway) is that the historical claims made in the NT were not only recorded after the fact, but much later after the fact.

---

I fail to see how 20 to 30 years is "much later after the fact."  That is not even one generation after Jesus's death and there would have been many people still alive that could have verified what was stated in the Bible.  There is even evidence within the Bible that some of it is quoting from early Christian creeds from between 30-50 AD.

quote:

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While he did mention Jesus as this quote shows, his main focus was on other Jewish things. His mention of Jesus was actually a relatively small part of all that he wrote. His primary focus was on the events during and after 70 c.e. when the Romans destroyed the temple in Jerusalem.

---

First, why are you downplaying the fact that Jesus was mentioned?  Regardless of Josephus's purpose for writing, the fact remains that he did mention Jesus.  Second, it is quite ironic that you mention this since in Mark 13:2 Jesus predicted/prophecied that the destruction of the temple would occur, and to the extent that the stones would not be left on top of one another.  Mark was likely written in the 50s or early 60s before the destruction of the temple.

quote:

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BUT—here again, we do not have substantiating evidence from any other source that verifies that everything that Josephus says is true.

---

At what point then would there ever be enough evidence?  Do we need substantiating evidence to substatiate substantiating evidence, and on, and on,...?

quote:

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If things really happened as Josephus (and/or the NT) state, we should most especially have something from the Roman records that we have that would substantiate these claims. But we do not.

---

And the Romans persecuted the Christians for 300 years.  Were the Romans even interested in Christ's message?  Not likely.  Jesus was a Jew and Christianity was predominantly Jewish to start with, so one would expect any writings of him to come mainly from Jewish sources.

Tab:

quote:

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Actually I would think this biblical quote DISPROVES your thinking altogether instead of vice-versa. It is stating that God's breath contained man's soul in it, that man's soul did exist before it became a physical being but it existed within and as a part of God.

---

Well done Tab!  I like it![:D]

exothen:

quote:

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This simply is not true. There are names and places of things in the Bible for which archaeology has accounted for, even things which for decades were denied by archaeologists to exist...certainly numerous other artifacts have been found that do verify people and places

---

What and who?  I know of no such proof.  

quote:

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I fail to see how 20 to 30 years is "much later after the fact."

---

20-30 years is NOT that long--BUT that still does not PROVE the fragment to be HISTORICAL.  It ONLY proved that the verses had been written by then.   A LOT of ancient documents were written during that period.  And luckily we have recovered some of them. The Dead Sea Scrolls even pre-date Christianity, and they tell us a lot about this particular ancient Jewish sect than we have ever known before.  BUT--once again, they have yet to be verified by other sources.  How many "other sources" do we need?  Enough to put together a reasonable "whole picture" that shows both sides of the "history."  Archaeologists are excavating more and more ancient artifacts every year.  We may eventually find substantiating evidence, but as yet--we have not.

quote:

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First, why are you downplaying the fact that Jesus was mentioned? Regardless of Josephus's purpose for writing, the fact remains that he did mention Jesus.

---

 
I am not downplaying it--I am only saying that it was NOT that big of a deal in the big scheme of things during the first century.  Plus--even then it was just a rumor--not fact.  

quote:

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Mark 13:2 Jesus predicted/prophecied that the destruction of the temple would occur, and to the extent that the stones would not be left on top of one another. Mark was likely written in the 50s or early 60s before the destruction of the temple.

---

Mark was "likely" written previous to the destruction of the temple?  "Likely" is okay for a theory, but not good enough to establish historical proof.  Plus, we do not have any fragments from a book of Mark that we can test for dating.  All we have is a theory that all four Gospels are thought to have been written from a now lost book that had kept a record the many things that Jesus is said to have done.  Scholar's call this the Book of Q.  But--we do not have it--not even a fragment of it. Further, this now lost book is just a speculation, to help explain how the four different gospels came about their info. ALL ancient COPIES of Mark are dated AFTER 70 c.e. and could have very easily been written so that the prophecy matched history.

quote:

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And the Romans persecuted the Christians for 300 years. Were the Romans even interested in Christ's message? Not likely.

---

.
True--BUT if the events of the first century were that much of a BIG deal...then don't you think they would have boasted about their conquer?  Additionally, it was the Romans who eventually assured the survival of Christianity.  That IS historical--but that did not happen until 325 forward.

Now, more importantly,  

quote:

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Jesus was a Jew and Christianity was predominantly Jewish to start with, so one would expect any writings of him to come mainly from Jewish sources

---

 
Yes--and we ONLY have Josephus. None of the other rabbincal material verifies these claims.  But this is NOT surprising.  If the stories ran counter to the main belief at the time, what would be the advantage of recording it?  And isn't that the whole controversy?  Wasn't it Pilot (a Roman) who according to the gospels couldn't find Jesus guilty of anything?  Wasn't it the Jews that supposedly crucified their own?  

To everyone in general:

All of this controversy is NOT a new problem.  This problem is as old as the religion itself.

Looking back from our perspective--or even the perspective of a few hundred years, we are seeing 3 distinct groups--the Jews, the Christians and the Romans.  But, there were NOT 3 distinct groups at the time.  Biblically speaking, it was just the Jews and the Romans (and the Greeks, but we won't go there here.)  We have no accountable evidence from either of these parties, that substantiate the BOLD claims that the Gospels make.  AND--I have found in my research that the gospels were NOT trying to make historical claims at all.  There were trying to preserve the mysteries of their "Jewish" religion.  When people started taking the gospels as "historical fact" it NEVER DID hold water. During, and previous to, the 1st century the same problem existed for Jews who tried to claim the OT as "history."  The Greeks were all over the Jews to get them to "prove" that their scriptures were "historical." So this same argument even predates Christianity. Most of the ancient Jewish writers that we have records from, tried to "explain" that this was not the case anyway. But some people have a way of not listening to reason.  The scripture was written to provide the people with a pseudo-history that they could use to bind them together and preserve the inner-workings of their belief.  This was very important to insure the cohesion of all tribal groups. Myths, or stories, were ALWAYS used to do so.  But just like with Zeus, Hera, Athena and the whole Greek pantheon, these stories were NEVER proven to be historical.  What all of these ancient stories prove is that people have been believing in a higher power(s) for as long as we have history recorded.  There are many ancient cultures that wrote their own stories about events that were shared by all.  For example, there are several different versions of "a massive flood story."  But each one of them is different, and each one of them claim the power of their own Gods in the flood.  BUT--geologists and those who study ancient earth activities, have yet to find evidence of a flood that massive that could be dated by the biblical account.

There is SO much more that must be taken into consideration when trying to reconstruct 1st century events (and earlier.)  Today's scholarship is pumping out pieces to this puzzle every day.  But--we are NOT coming up with the NT as being "historical."  It is about God--no doubt--but it is a construction of a belief system ABOUT God. NOT HISTORY.

We are all educated today.  And you do not have to have a PhD to read.  We have more information available today than ever before--use it to your advantage--do your own research.  Everyone of you know how to use a computer.  Use it.  I stongly encourage it.  Search the internet--Learn of these things.  Find a good History link and go read about ancient history.  Yes, you will find the development of Christianity IN history, but you will also find a lot more.     Check out the history of your religion.  Don't you want to know everything about the religion that you have made a life-long pledge to?  Then, if you have any questions, and I think I may be able to help, I will be more than glad to do so!![:)]

If, on the other hand, you are not interested in learning more and you believe that the Church has already told you everything that there is to know, then fine.  Believe them. Don't learn more.  But DON'T make the claim that that is all there is know about it, when that is just not the case.

Dear Beth
I first wanna say that I thank you for your posts . I have read them several times and allthough I felt thought I understood I am, now suddenly close to being drawn into your world of argument reasoning and non absolutes. First you say one thing and next something else. I dont know what to think. Your posts seem continually to be very vaque and insinuating. I have tried to adapt the attitude that, OK if you dont wanna believe in Jesus thats up to you. Your posts seem however to be bent on destroying the Christian faith, but I dont think that could be the case. ( I wanna understand this)

(You said) The scripture was written to provide the people with a pseudo-history that they could use to bind them together and preserve the inner-workings of their belief

You no longer guess, you state and want to be believed as a authority. You  seem "unreasonable in opposition" . I get the impression you are not interested in leaving it at "its all by faith" but wanna prove, or attempt to prove, the Bible false.!!!Very disheartening to me. I do not know why. If you please may I ask you to answer me clearly, was Robert categorically wrong in his statements, and is, there a vast more prolific body of evidence to substantiate the claim that the Bible could be a valid document, much more than a  "fingernail sized scrap of paper"  Thoose were unsubstantiated claims. Will you support them or as a true scholar refute them. Will you go face to face with him and say " listen here Rob that was not fair or right" or will you excuse him and say "i understant what you mean." I also do not "believe".

Will you be fair and honest or Biased

Regards Mustardseed

quote:

---

We are all educated today. And you do not have to have a PhD to read. We have more information available today than ever before--use it to your advantage--do your own research. Everyone of you know how to use a computer. Use it. I stongly encourage it. Search the internet--Learn of these things. Find a good History link and go read about ancient history. Yes, you will find the development of Christianity IN history, but you will also find a lot more. Check out the history of your religion. Don't you want to know everything about the religion that you have made a life-long pledge to? Then, if you have any questions, and I think I may be able to help, I will be more than glad to do so!!

If, on the other hand, you are not interested in learning more and you believe that the Church has already told you everything that there is to know, then fine. Believe them. Don't learn more. But DON'T make the claim that that is all there is know about it, when that is just not the case.

---

Beth,

Very simple question for you, ok?????????[:D][B)][^][:(!][8D][xx(]

Dont get hurt feelers or anything. I am very serious on this and if I am to bask in the Gnosis of your posts I first just need one nagging question dealt with. After that I will leave you alone and have a better understanding of what you are doing here.

DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE PHYSICAL RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST AS AN ACTUAL HISTORICAL EVENT? AS A MIRACLE AND AN ACT OF GOD'S DIVINE LOVE?

That is all I need to know and I will leave you be from here on out. No need to debate or throw in references to mystic cajun buckshot or what not.

Do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ physically?

Yes?
No?

Thank You

Dear Mustardseed,

I have already explained my reasoning (a number of times) regarding my earlier statement that changed the direction of this thread, and have freely admitted that it may not have been entirely accurate in a historical sense.  (Do you research and reference every post you make? Does anyone?) But I think it was still a fair comment to throw into the proverbial pot. And you must admit that it had the desired effect.  I note that you commented on this in a very understanding way in an earlier post. Thank you for that.

But now you state that I made an outrageous claim and seem to be demanding absolute proof one way or the other from Beth.  I could ask the same of you regarding the largely circumstantial evidence that has been offered herein to support the 'historical events' depicted in the NT.

I say again, my earlier statements were in regard to the existance of actual proof of the "historical events' depicted in the NT. They had 'nothing' whatsoever to do with the divine truth or spiritual implications and worth of the NT as a holy book.

One of Beth's earlier comments says it all, regarding my earlier statements.

---------------------------------------
 "Neither Robert nor I are making the claim that ancient texts do not exist. Of course they existed. To claim otherwise would be absurd. But just the mere existence of these ancient texts does not prove that they contain historical facts. It only proves a history that the texts existed—not the actual content of the texts. Where Robert made his error was with this next statement: "The earliest historical evidence of christianity and the bible are a few late-third century 'fingernail sized' fragments that historians consider could 'possibly' be fragments of a very early version of the bible " This, he did get wrong, dates and wording. But in the context of what he is saying overall, his point (I think anyway) is that the historical claims made in the NT were not only recorded after the fact, but much later after the fact. But (like I said above) there are no other supporting documents from any other source to verify any of these accounts as historical."
------------------------------------------

Mustardseed, I also note a derisive change of tone in your last post towards Beth. Your accusations are not very understanding or charitable and some of your statements are openly disrespectful and could even be taken as insulting. In essence, you seem to be demanding that Beth posts an accurate, highly-structured and fully-referenced book on these matters in a single post. But such a book has not been written, not yet anyway. Beth is posting as accurately and fairly as she can on extremely complex topics. Please be more understanding so as not to make her task needlessly difficult.

The whole idea of the thread on early christianity is to examine and discuss the origins of the NT and the foundations of christianity, particularly early christianity. If you find this exploration disconcerting and would rather stick to personal faith-based belief, fine; that's okay.  But please understand that that topic is not for discussing matters of personal faith and belief.

If anyone takes issue with anything Beth posts, please make your point clear so it can be discussed, rather than just making general and/or personal comments that you don't like the way the discussion is unfolding, etc. This will be much more productive.  

Also, once again, please do not think that thread is aimed at debunking the bible and christianity. This is not and never was its purpose. I am amazed that so many people appear to feel so threatened by the content of this thread.

If you read Beth's posts in that thread carefully, you'll actually find that much deeper spiritual meaning is being applied to the NT and christianity in general; much more than currently exists.

Threads on the Astral Pulse should be looked upon as one might look upon the books in a library. Take out and review and discuss whatever books you like with likeminded people. But please leave the books that don't appeal to you on the shelf unread.


Take care, Robert.

Being as most here have experience with projection I have a challenge for you to try if you feel the need. If not that is fine. No hurtful replies are needed.

First ask the Holy Spirit to be your "guide" on this adventure. Get in your usual meditative posture or lay down on your bed. Whatever works for you.

As you "leave" your body try to go to the time and place of the crucifixtion. Use your imagination to feel, hear, taste, smell the surroundings and the people, animals that may be present. As you begin to settle in the enviroment focus your attention on Christ as He carries the Cross to the summot on the hill. Picture His eyes and the Way the burden is dealt with. See Him being pounded to the Cross and the blood as it flows like Holy Water. I suggest a reading of the Gospels for some of the dialog as well. Use your imagination and your hearts as you try to "understand" why so many choose to place this as the most important Act that has ever occurred in the History of the Universe.

If you feel any success with this technique I urge you to place your mind now at the Victory and Resurrection of Christ as He conquers death itself. Pay attention to the details of His physical body and keep your hearts open to what you may find.

Once again if you dont want to take this challenge that is fine. I am sure many here far surpass my abilities to project and I am curious as to the end result of placing your faith in an experience such as this.

Do you feel, Love, Hope, Peace?

Or detachment, sadness and dispair?

I am seriously curious on this matter so only those that have an open mind respond please!!

If you disagree here fine but no need for debate here or conflict.

Just the end result of the projection and the challenge.

Thank You and God Bless.

Wow, this is a huge thread, I have not read it all but would just like to throw in my two cents.

Background:

I am Christian and practice OBE's. I don't know if they are dangerous or not, but I have a passion for exploring the unknown, so I will continue to study and induce OBE's along with Bible study and prayer.

It saddens me to see so much arrogance on both sides of the issue. The unbelievers talk like they are 100% postive that OBE's are not a deception from satan. You don't know for sure, don't act like you do. We (projectors, including me) could be playing with fire here and not even know it!

And Allanon, you act like you know 100% without a doubt that OBE's are dangerous for non-christians to practice. They could have nothing to do with satan or evil at all! They could be visions from God.

You said:

"All this projection and letting go of your mind just allows the Devil to get a stranglehold on your soul"

Where is the Biblical support for this?

Allanon you also said "pray don't meditate". People in Biblical times including Jesus himself meditated. The word "meditate" is mentioned frequently in the Bible.[;)]

Dear Robert and Beth
I apologise about that post, and any hostility,let me explain my point again. You have read my posts and I would say that I have been fair in my statements! I never said anything else than this :

The Bible is believed by faith. It is alive and and inspired by the Spirit of God. . It could have happened the way the Bible states and while I have no proof it did I have a mass of manuscripts all interwoven claiming that it did. I furthermore have secular sources stating to the historical Jesus. His life death ressurection etc. Therefore my faith is not built on mere assumptions "fingernail size scraps" but on a pretty good body of circumstantial evidence. It could be true. Thats all.

This was and still is to me the point and the discussion. I do find that now the thread is changing again and instead of Beth and yourself agreeing with me on this you want to dig deeper. I find that problematic and a changing of the focus. It seems to me that your belief system and Beths reasearch is built on your faith. or assumption, that the Bible and the claims in it "are not nessesarily so". In my opinion you work backward, saying (maybe not consiosly "now that we have agreed we do not want to acknowledge that the Bible COULD be true how can we explain it all away". Becourse if the Bible was true you would as seekers of the truth have to include it in your considerations`  your life and ministry, and you (in my view) it is a possibility you do not WANT to do that, becourse it contains ABSOLUTE TRUTHS!!!I find that you are also contradicting yourself or maybe we could call it being somewhat hypocritical, in on one hand making a value judgement on the scriptures, expecting proof of the Bible while on the other hand facilitating the prolification of all sorts of other things including folks who are channelling statements from a race of aliens from the Pleaideans, telling folks on earth how they should live their life and kill their pets (go figure!!!) Carlos Castaneda a self proclaimed fantasy writer etc. It seems that Proving things becomes only important when it is things YOU do not want to accept as possibilities. I have a similar question to you why is the Bible singled out? I know that you will say becourse of Bible bashing but we both know that Narrow paths behaviour is not supportable in the Bible

Robert I have on more occations that one streched forth my hand and said let us just agree to disagree, right? It is not my desire to keep this contention up . I have the highest regard for you both and will try to keep it more on a sober note.

Regards Mustardseed

GTP,

Astral projection without the Word leads to the false notion of immoratality of the soul.

Meditation on the WORD and Jesus is what we need to focus on as Christians. Clearing your mind completely can lead to some scary stuff. Almost as scary as a gallon of milk left out overnight.

Beth,

quote:

---

We are all educated today. And you do not have to have a PhD to read. We have more information available today than ever before--use it to your advantage--do your own research. Everyone of you know how to use a computer. Use it. I stongly encourage it. Search the internet--Learn of these things. Find a good History link and go read about ancient history. Yes, you will find the development of Christianity IN history, but you will also find a lot more.

---

Have you done a search on "biblical archaeology"?  

Has anyone done a search on "biblical archaeology"?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Narrow Path

GTP,

Astral projection without the Word leads to the false notion of immoratality of the soul.

Meditation on the WORD and Jesus is what we need to focus on as Christians. Clearing your mind completely can lead to some scary stuff. Almost as scary as a gallon of milk left out overnight.

---

That post reminds me of my uncle's words on yoga "I do yoga with Jesus' seed in my heart. Of course the Buddhists created yoga but they could never be complete in their yoga because they were not practicing with Jesus at the center."

Pretty funny stuff [^]

exothen:


I took a three month course in Biblical Archaeology and studied all of the progress that has been made.  I have read the reports and studies of the archaeologists themselves. I was going to go on a dig myself, but the trip was cancelled due to American travel advisories in the Middle East.

quote:

---

Astral projection without the Word leads to the false notion of immoratality of the soul.

---

I don't know about anybody else, but I think I'd rather have my consciousness completely die off than to sit around worshipping God's greatness for all eternity. Pretty vain of God to have that happen, too.

Just thought I'd interject and make an butt of myself. Narrow Path might not even have that idea of Heaven for all I know. [:)]

Dear Beth

What a wonderful sunny morning here where I am hope you are all well too. I have thought a lot about the different posts and tried to find my focus, however I find myself continually distracted by the way the thread progresses and having to rethink things almost constantly. I have some problem with the way you argue your points and would like to ask you about them.

Let me first reiterate that I am not hinging my faith in Jesus and the Bible on Archaeology or church history. I have not been to Church in maybe a decade I believe it to be as far from true Christianity as Communism is from capitalism and have no vested interest in trying to support defend or in others ways excuse the organized churches (Churchanity as I will call it) I believe that they, with the aid of zealots like Narrow Path have done more to hurt the cause of Christ than the combined forces of Evil in every sphere of existence.  

My problem with the thread and your posts is this. I find that you argue in a self contradicting and confusing manner. On one hand you say. I have picked out some qoutes.

(Beth Said)
"I have seen no such proof"

indicating you need proof to be convinced, while on the other you say:

"I have only been on this board for a few days now, and everyone immediately started pushing "for proof" of my position"

indicating that you expect folks to believe what you say with out any proof.
(end quote)

Your own way of discussing things indicate a strong faith based world view, appearing to be a result of a conscious decision to disbelieve, possibly resulting from a series of incidents, but seemingly only based on your own intuitive feelings. As I said before it seems apparent that you do not believe in the Bible and are doing what you can to justify your position.

(Beth said)

" I feel as though I have finally been liberated from a lifetime of deep-in-my-heart suspicion and sadness.

"Many of us have struggled with the fact that what the Church teaches ..............At least I know that I have. ...... I intuitively knew that what the Church offered us—was not the whole story. I was driven to "figure it out"

"I took the path of searching for the answers in the very scriptures that resonated within me regardless of how the Church interpreted them"

"I have to take the position that it depends upon the person, and upon how willing they are to "allow the divine to come into them," rather than falling into the FALSE belief that..........."

(End quote)

Now to me this is not a problem. I agree with you that the "proof" of the Bible's claim is the hottest debated subject this century and will likely not be solved in this forum. However I was corrected on the thread by Robert who said said to me:

The whole idea of the thread on early christianity is to examine and discuss the origins of the NT and the foundations of christianity, particularly early christianity. If you find this exploration disconcerting and would rather stick to personal faith-based belief, fine; that's okay. But please understand that that topic is not for discussing matters of personal faith and belief.
(end quote)

Robert also said :

Religious fundamentalist arguments and statements are generally one-sided and absolute and they leave no room for discussion...eg, 'believe my way or be damned' is a wide theme
(end qoute)

I would say your line and his is more believe our way or be decieved. Either side claiming to know better than the other.

(Robert further stated)
One point concerning archaeological evidence cited in this post, that is claimed to support bible events: the evidence cited has been gathered by Christian-minded archaeologists who's main purpose .......is aimed at validating bible events as being historically accurate. Evidence gained in this way is highly biased and thus not internationally acceptable in the actual fields of archaeology and history. You will find this kind of evidence being presented as 'fact' in many bible-oriented magazines, books and papers. But these are the only places where such things (Christian propaganda) are accepted.

This single-minded approach to this kind of research is very unscientific, and results are therefore subjective and dubious to say the least....... The results of any such study will obviously be flawed as it would be heavily biased in their favour
(end qoute)

Well Robert and Beth would that not go both ways? If You consider yourselves to be "neutral" and "unbiased" I think you are decieving yourself. I think you have a heavy bias against the Bible being proven to be true. To say that you want to evaluate all findings neutrally is just not possible. People have their own agandas and noone is Neutral. Is it not discriminating to say that if one believes in something like the Bible one os excluded from arguing why and ones research is automatically duobted?. You also have built your life on your lack of adherence to its tenants.

As I stated above Beth I never claimed to "know"  or have "proof" or anything else I always stated that I believe the Bible is the revealed living Word of God inspite of alterations adaptions or whatever, but it seems to me that you do. You do come across as a scientist , researcher, archeaologist and seem to have the air around you that you "know stuff" and " have proof"  rather than admitting that your view is nothing but YOUR FAITH  and  YOUR BEELIEF

You often quote what seems to be your opinion and paints a picture of how you BELIEVE it could have happened

(Beth said)

(about Constantine )It was also his agenda (assumption)

First, biblical scripture, IF UNDERSTOOD PROPERLY contains a vast wealth of knowledge........(assumption)

The term 'paradise' is also used in and BELIEVED to be.......(assumption)

Rabbi Moses de Leon, BELIEVED to be......(assumption)....

The "truth" that will be communicated by me, is that the bible is not what most people think it is IN MY OPINION, it is not a true historical document ..........(assumption)

IN MY OPINION, the biggest error the Church has made is making the claim that it is the "only way."(your opinion)

Anyway, Constantine knew this—(assumption)

Constantine liked this idea. But—as one legend has it,...(Legend!!!!!!????Legend go figure).....

"And they picked the "simplest" ones, because Augustine......... knew that they needed to "KEEP IT SIMPLE" so the common people could understand it. (assumption)
(End quote)

I derive from this, (I assume, I believe and it is my opinion) that you have an agenda!!!!What the agenda is I am not sure of but reading the following quote I will let the participants of the forum decide for themselves.

(Beth said)

I have been offered the opportunity to help those "who want to know" exactly "how" they can find "themselves" and "their experience" written within these ancient texts

Christianity has yet to catch up with the progressive nature of our society I went to school with a lot of very progressive people that are training to be tomorrow's ministers. They will eventually change the face of Christianity from their pulpits. It will just take time--and perhaps a lot of time.(end qoute)(friends do have an influence on us dont they)

I personally believe that you are on a crusade of your own, to Change Christianity , as you know it, and maybe dislike it. I also believe that you are way smarter than me and I will not have a chance if I allow myself to be drawn into your entire universe of personal belief, but that I will only change MY BELIEF SYSTEM to YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM, and become your convert. In a world where the truth is debatable, moral is up to the individual and BELIEFS are disguised as Valid proof and ABSOLUTES are no longer.

Regards Mustardseed

Greetings Mustardseed,

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mustardseed
I personally believe that you are on a crusade of your own, to Change Christianity , as you know it, and maybe dislike it. I also believe that you are way smarter than me and I will not have a chance if I allow myself to be drawn into your entire universe of personal belief, but that I will only change MY BELIEF SYSTEM to YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM, and become your convert. In a world where the truth is debatable, moral is up to the individual and BELIEFS are disguised as Valid proof and ABSOLUTES are no longer.

Regards Mustardseed

---

With respect, you are coming across as being intimidated by the excellent, rational and highly factual information being presented by Beth. Personally I believe that there is no other way to present such information. One liners or quotes from the bibles simply will not do when we are discussing complexities such as these of such far reaching importance. All anyone needs is an open mind in these discussions.

However, your emphasis on "belief system" says alot. I would ask you to read Robert's excellent article "The Catch Basket Concept:

http://www.astralpulse.com/articles/robert/articles_44.htm

The problem with being trapped in a belief system is that it becomes extremely difficult to separate yourself from it. It becomes a way of life, a comfort and even something to buffer the fear of death. It is very easy to see why so many people hold to belief systems. But after all, a belief system is just that "a system of belief" by definition and which has been contrived by other people for their own purposes. The only real truth is that which you know to be the truth and you will never find your own truth encapsulated in a "belief system".

Most people in these forums are seeking their own truth through discussion and sharing of information and experiences. Everyone has the freewill to accept or reject anything they see written here. Beth is not promoting a belief system I assure you of that, or conducting any sort of anti-christian crusade, she is rather seeking to go far beyond the official creed, dogma and doctrines of the orthodox churches to present evidence which goes to the true origins of Christianity, and more importantly the true mission of Jesus. When the world knows these things people can finally free themselves and start to fulfil their true destiny. The world, and particualarly  religion needs people like Beth who are brave and intelligent enough to discover and relate the true origins and meaning of Christianity.

There is very considerable evidence out there, people must find the strength to accept it even if it goes against their "belief system".

Thank you very much for your values contributions to these topics.

With best regards,

Adrian.


However

[Qquote]

With respect, you are coming across as being intimidated by the excellent, rational and highly factual information being presented by Beth. Personally I believe that there is no other way to present such information. One liners or quotes from the bibles simply will not do when we are discussing complexities such as these of such far reaching importance. All anyone needs is an open mind in these discussions.

(Answer)
Dear Administrator
Yes I am. I feel that I am not being heard , and my points are not being addressed.I spite of that I have kept my cool and considered her and Roberts point of view. I have spent hours on the net and at Book shops to research their claim and have thought a lot about it and prayed about it (though many of you dont believe in that) and I have come to a conclusion that I will have my say. I also find it disheartening and condesending to be addressed in this manner by you. My argument and problem with fairness is this. I think it is unfair that while I can not (being a layman) prove anything and seeing I am also not allowed to include qoutes from likeminded people who believe as I do, as they are not "valid", yet, I am forced to view these allegations with respect and openness. Please remember that I was not the Bible basher, but merely took up the challenge from Robert to debate.

(You said)
However, your emphasis on "belief system" says alot. (Please explain further Adrian what are you insinuating this is to me intimidation) I would ask you to read Robert's excellent article "The Catch Basket Concept:

http://www.astralpulse.com/articles/robert/articles_44.htm

(ok I will do )

(You said)
The problem with being trapped in a belief system is that it becomes extremely difficult to separate yourself from it.

(I agree you seem to have all those fears as well,)

It becomes a way of life, a comfort and even something to buffer the fear of death.

(couldnt agree more)

It is very easy to see why so many people hold to belief systems. But after all, a belief system is just that "a system of belief" by definition and which has been contrived by other people for their own purposes.

(OOPPS i DONT Agree here. This is an assumption.!!On your partThough I do believe in the Bible I have also proven it true I have lived a life of a Missionary for 30 years, I have seen healings numerous times, experiences 3 encounters with angelic beings and used the name of Jesus for more exorsisms than I care to remember with pretty good results. You obviously know little about the life of a Missionary and think we are all like Narrow Path, and you obviously know nothing about me!!)

The only real truth is that which you know to be the truth and you will never find your own truth encapsulated in a "belief system".

(I have OBEs I prophecy Channel and if I had wanted to stay closed I would never have talked to you nor have his books or been on this Forum)

Beth is not promoting a belief system I assure you of that,

(what a claim!! what do you know about her or what she is trying to do. At most you know what she says she is trying to do)

or conducting any sort of anti-christian crusade,

(?)

The world, and particualarly  religion needs people like Beth who are brave and intelligent enough to discover and relate the true origins and meaning of Christianity.

(she sure converted or persuaded you. But how about if we let her answer ok Adrian)

Thank you very much for your values contributions to these topics.

Thanks Adrian
I do appreciate your comments I really do, but I do not agree. I have not qouted any scriptures to you and seeing you dont like that here Adrian but here is a nice qoute "there is none as blind as those who will not see" With all due respect Adrian take a look in the mirror.
Regards Mustardseed

Beth,

What did you learn in your biblical archaeological course?  Not that one prof's opinion is going to settle this, but just to add it to the discussion.

Adrian,

I just wanted to point out a couple of things I noticed in your response to Mustardseed.

quote:

---

But after all, a belief system is just that "a system of belief" by definition and which has been contrived by other people for their own purposes.

---

You are assuming that a belief system is contrived by people for their own purposes.  However, it is possible that there is a "belief system" which was not contrived by people.

quote:

---

The only real truth is that which you know to be the truth and you will never find your own truth encapsulated in a "belief system".

---

Problem.  Some people think they know things which are the truth, but some of those things are not true.  Therefore, that idea is false.  Take the flat-earth theory, for example.  People "knew" it to be the truth for a long time, but yet it was proved false.  Truth is absolute, so that which is true, is true for all people, in all places, and at all times.  There is no such thing as "one's own truth."

quote:

---

she is rather seeking to go far beyond the official creed, dogma and doctrines of the orthodox churches to present evidence which goes to the true origins of Christianity, and more importantly the true mission of Jesus.

---

Bigger problem.  You are assuming that she knows the "true origins of Christianity" and the "true mission of Jesus."  This contradicts your earlier statement that we will not find our own truth in a belief system, since you are assuming that we will find truth in her belief system.

You are just as much trapped in a belief system as everybody else on this planet.

Whew finally someone is getting some similar ideas to my own. I totally agree the TRUTH is out there and it is the truth nomatter what any of us thinks. Exoten ! you better listen in here . Not that I want an supporter but I had not even seen the last point you made but agree, and I want fair treatment[:P]. Also a made up system of beliefs could also be made and inspired by the Holy Spirit, if one agrees with the notion that one such thing could exist.

Mustardseed:

I have had enough of this.  This is SO ridiculous [xx(].

If you do not want to read my posts--then don't read them.  If my posts are troubling you--then pray about them.  

Either way--your slanderous comments about me have gone far enough. My posts are not about ME unless I specifically state "In my opinion" or if it is obviously of my personal experience.  My posts are about what I have learned through 35 years of study and searching through Christianity and its roots.  

So, read my posts or don't read my posts--BUT STOP WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACKS.

(You said)
I have had enough of this.  This is SO ridiculous [xx(].

(I said)
I dont think it is

(you said)
If you do not want to read my posts--then don't read them.  If my posts are troubling you--then pray about them.

(I said)
I have done so Beth

(You said)
Either way--your slanderous comments about me have gone far enough.My posts are not about ME unless I specifically state "In my opinion" or if it is obviously of my personal experience.  My posts are about what I have learned through 35 years of study and searching through Christianity and its roots.

(I said)
Sorry Beth, you seem to want to make comments and allegations and then turn around and say "its not about me". Well it is about you. You are what you preach Beth.
 
(You said)
So, read my posts or don't read my posts--BUT STOP WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACKS.

(I said)
are you advocating I accept everything you say as truth, or do you allow me the right to challenge your statements. You have done a lot of assuming what is is the motive of the Christians what they think and so on. You make assumtions about what everyoner else thinks challenging their motives,incl. Constantine, christians, popes etc etc. Yet you do not want to be challenged on your own motives. !!You want us to accept all that you say as the truth or as the result of your research.  You seem to have issues and I think they are influencing your judgement. This is my opinion. I feel I have every right to question your "research" and Belief system.

Kind regards Mustardseed

Yeesh, if I were you christians, I would be ecstatic to know that my belief system still holds some truth and esoteric meaning and isn't just a complete bunch of confused dogma.
Well, whatever floats your boat I guess. :/

If you want esoteric go into the woods for a week and not eat and than do some Vine of the Dead.

If you want the peace of God just take it easy and read the Word.

Esoteric seeking can be interesting but leads to a lot of unwanted stress.

I have NO IDEA WHY I am responding yet ONE MORE TIME...and I pray that this is the last time that I take the bait.

But Mustardseed I guess you have a need to know this:

My undergraduate studies were at a private SOUTHERN BAPTIST UNIVERSITY, with a major in philosophy and a minor in religion.  I then attended five years of graduate study at a private, PREDOMINATELY CHRISTIAN University, receiving my MA in Religion. All of my knowledge and training has been through a CHRISTIAN University curriculum.

and Narrowpath--This will tell you nothing about me or my beliefs except that they are not your own, but I will answer your question.

No. I do not "believe" in a "physical resurrection" of Jesus. The whole basis of such an idea stems from...no...wait...I am NOT EVEN going to bother....

Another poster (I am sorry, I do remember your name[xx(]..but thanks for the quote![:D]) said it simply enough--"What need would anyone have of a "physical body" in heaven anyway?  Well Put! [:)]

G'day Folks!

Mustardseed, I totally agree to agree to disagree with you on these matters, and on any other matter for that matter. And I am sure that Adrian and Beth and many others will also agree to disagree with you.

But the exploration of the origins and evolution of the NT will of course continue full steam ahead in the appropriate threads.

The unphilosophical way this particular thread has evolved with all its ranting and raving is verging on the ridiculous, I think every sane person will agree.


Take care, Robert.

I will agree to disagree Robert and maybe leave it at that. I do not have anything against you all, with Beth as the expert discussing the philosopical understanding of the origin of the Bible. It seems to me to be plain Gnostisism to me. Gnostics have been existing as long as Christians and I am fine with that.
Regards Mustardseed

Mustardseed:

quote:

---

or do you allow me the right to challenge your statements. You have done a lot of assuming what is is the motive of the Christians what they think and so on. You make assumtions about what everyoner else thinks challenging their motives,incl. Constantine, christians, popes etc etc. Yet you do not want to be challenged on your own motives.

---

By giving you my educational background, I tried to show you that this is NOT just my opinion, assumptions, or motives, but rather what I have learned while obtaining my education and degrees. But, I should have known as soon as I told you "my crendentials" you would make a snide comment about that too.  

quote:

---

Well then dont bother then Beth. Just explode stamp your little masters and Phd feet in the University floor and wipe it with anyone who questions you.

---

But...you know what Mustardseed?  I guess that really doesn't matter <shrug> I can't care what you think of me personnally.

You can certainly challenge what I say Mustardseed--but you aren't really challenging ME...you are challenging the history of Christianity.  Since you do not know me personally, I am choosing to assume you are just trying to "shoot the messenger."

The origin of Christianity, the establishment of Christianity as The Roman Catholic Church through the Council of Nicaea (there were actually several councils called) and the other things of which I speak -- ARE HISTORY.  If you don't believe me...buy the books and read them for yourself. I cannot give you years of study in a relative few internet message board posts. And I will not debate it with you any longer. I am not avoiding answering your "long, long, posts" but writing these posts takes a lot of time, and you would not believe me anyway.

So, here are a few of the textbooks.  These are standard curriculum for the study of Christianty in American Academia--Seminaries included. These books explain the basics.

The History of the Church
by Eusebius,
translated by G. A. Williamson

The Early Church: The Story of Emergent Christiantity from the Apostolic Age to the dividing way between the Greek East and the Latin West
by Henry Chadwick

Western Society and the Church in The Middle Ages
by R.W. Southern

Origen: The Bible and Philosophy in the Third Century Church
by Joseph Wilson Trigg

Origen: On First Principles
translated by G. W. Butterworth

Early Christian Doctrines
by J.N.D. Kelly

A History of Christian Thought Volumes I, II, and III
by Justo L. Gonzalez

These first three are all currently published by The Penguin History of the Church Series (there are actually six in all I think that will take you all the way through to present day) and should not be that expensive.  The others are offered by other publishers, and may cost a little more. You should be able to order them all from Amazon.com, or check them out from your local Public Library.

Read these books Mustardseed...not my posts. It will take you quite a while to read them, but after you do, you will see that the information I am sharing is true, for all I am trying to do is share my education with those who cannot study Christianity in an academic setting.  If my comments are "my own opinion" I will always try to state that.

By the way, I understand how upsetting all of this can be.  Over the past ten years I have had more than one spiritual crisis. Many in fact. The things you will read in these books will give you a very different understanding of the origins of Christianity and its subsequent development.  It is oftentimes very difficult to swallow. And, I wish they would go ahead and teach this in Adolescent and Adult Sunday School classes...

Mustard,

I person does not need "credentials" to share what they have come to believe and understand.  No credential anybody could ever have would matter anyway if what that person was saying didn't feel right to you personally.  All she is doing here is sharing HER studies and insights.  Nobody is claiming she is "right" or that you are "wrong".  She is simply sharing what she has learned so that other people can consider what she has to say and decide for themselves?  

--Soulfire

Beth,

I seem to remember you INTERPRETING the scripture earlier and expecting us to swallow that as "history" like the councils and all the rest.

The interpretations that I offer are ONE OF MANY, as interpreted by the earliest Christians.  As the centuries passed, the interpretations grew and changed. Just like the interpretations I offer, the different interpretations between today's Protestantism and Catholicism, as well as the different interpretations between the many demoninations within Protestant Christianity, there are many different ways to read the scriptures.  For example, some demoninations today "sprinkle" and some "immerse" for their baptisms.  Some demoninations practice the "speaking and interpreting of tongues." Some offer the Eucharist (The Lord's Supper) several times a week, but others only offer it monthly or quarterly. The first few centuries of Christianity was no different.  All of these things are based upon a "different reading of scripture."  Biblical scripture contains "layers upon layers of meaning." Christianity as it stands today reflects that very thing.

On the Councils:  What I offer on that is not an interpretation of scripture, that is the history of the Christian religion and how it survived a period of religious turmoil that we today cannot even imagine. You think what I say is outrageous, what if you were told that you "couldn't believe the way that you do" and if you were caught practicing it, you knew that your entire family could be murdered because of your beliefs?  This is the way it was for centuries during the dawn of the first millennium.

Passionate Fool...I do not "expect" anything from anybody here, except to be free from harrassment in the threads where I have put forth topics to be discussed and to be free from personal attacks.  No one "has" to accept the interpretations that I offer. We can all sleep safely tonight--because today--we are all free to believe and think what we will.

Hi Beth I noticed you became the moderator. Boy would I have liked that job[;)]. Well I will be watching the threads and I am not offended by you [:)]. We just got off to a wrong start.I still feel a bit left out in the cold and ignored and my points (which were many) are now but un answered history. I also do believe that we are on opposite sides and I do feel that your "debate" is biased and Belief oriented. But so what[:)] . Agree to disagree I say. Lets post and if we dont see eye to eye so what. No censorship though, promise?
Regards Mustardseed
Your yellow stars are so pretty mine are just grey[:(]

Mustardseed:

As long as the posts "stay clean" and do not harrass or attack people personally, AND as long as the topic threads stay clear of blockages that take the topic off course, everything will be fine. Other than a bit of re-organizing from time to time, everything will remain the same.

Regards,
Beth

Mustardseed,

At the time I write this you anly need another 357 posts and you get some really nice shiny gold stars. See, with the exception of Robert and Beth, Most moderators started out with gold stars. You notice our stars aren't as shiny? That's the corruption from being a moderator tarnishing them.[:D]

James.

quote:

---

No. I do not "believe" in a "physical resurrection" of Jesus. The whole basis of such an idea stems from...no...wait...I am NOT EVEN going to bother....

---

Thank you for clearing that up Beth.

Warning Against Antichrists

18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[4] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us--even eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Why would God allow the "lie" of the resurrection to be called the "Truth" that so many True believers adhere to?

If you read the Bible from cover to cover the THEME of the death and resurrection of Jesus is what it is all about. The fallen nature of man, the hopelesness of mans attempts to reconsile himself, and Christ's ultimate victory on he cross.

It is hard to miss those key points.

Oh thats right Gnostics believe God is not perfect.[xx(]

Dear Beth,

You probably know this already but please do not feel you must fight Narrow Path.  He is on a crusade.  He will mow all down in his path not seeing the hurt he is doing...to himself.  He is so negative and reactionary it is not funny.  

You are liked and appreciated.  Narrow Paths quotes are interesting in a bizarre way...as long as one is not emotionally invested in anything he says.  The problem is he does PM and attempt to get people emotionally invested.  It is not easy to let these things go but it is best to.  I am so sadened and tired by arguements on this site that it is not funny.  Nothing is gained and we all end up losing time and respect for each other.  We lose time that could be spent writing and reading about amazingly interesting things.

Sigh,
timeless

Narrowpath,

quote:

---

Why would God allow ...

---

Why does God allow a lot of things?  In my opinion, it is because God is unlimited.  

God is omnipotent--all powerful. God is omniscient--all knowing. God is omnipresent--present everywhere.

Narrowpath, I believe that God can do what ever God wants to do.  And if God is in charge of all things, then God is in charge of all things--if God created all things, then God created all things--including the Gnostics, the Christians, the Jews, the Muslims, the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Wiccans, etc., etc.  

Bottom line, if God created all things, then God created everything.  If you have a problem with the perfection of God, a problem with what God has created, then I suggest you go to the source--take your concerns to God--

Regards,
Beth

Hey Timeless!

Thanks for your kind words.[:)]

It is my hope that things will calm down eventually.  We will see how it goes!![;)]

Beth

quote:

---

Originally posted by timeless

He will mow all down in his path

---

pfft, hardly, I haven't seen Ben come up with one solid response to the many many of his posts that I've delightfully refuted. He really is quite fun to observe and respond to though.

Dear Beth,

When we stand as stone someone can feel like they are chipping away at us.  When we become like wind they can take swings but eventually realize they cannot defeat something that gives no resistance.  

Often people who feel the need to convert, change or control others are people who are out of control inside.  When they find an anchor they feel everyone must have 'this anchor'.  They also feel that by controlling others and all that is external to them they will somehow calm what is inside.  This almost never happens and they become locked in endless wars, real or imaginary, all outside.  Perhaps so they never have to look where they do not want to look, inside.  


Dear Tab,

In a place of no sight or sound we mow down what we think we mow down.

Regards,
timeless

All of this fanatical preaching from Narrow Path just seems like he is reverting to this in order to "explain away" a scary experience.  This is just like what I saw in a critique of Susan Blackmores book, it was mentioned that her trying to debunk the afterlife and soul from near death experiences was probably just her way of explaining away a scary drug induced OBE but with Narrow Path instead of becoming a fanatical materialist he starts this fanatical bible thumping.  

With his large ego he also seems incapable of any kind of intelligent debate and only uses negativity, fear, and demonizing outside views to try and force his beliefs on others.  I also have yet to see Narrow Path come up with one half-way decent responce to the many thourough rebuttles to his statements which takes away from the point of debate and discussion there is just no reasoning with this type of person.  It's funny how he almost never responds to any questions or points put to him yet he still asks all kinds of questions which are just setups for more preaching.

(First You said)
Besides, written "History" is NEVER the WHOLE TRUTH. "History" is always decided upon by the one that is speaking/writing at the time.

(now you say)
What I offer  ........is the history of the Christian religion.

Forgive me if am confused. I do find it problematic that you play both sides so to speak. However seeing the way the thread is going and seeing you seemingly will not adress my points .....I can do nothing, but wait and see.

Regards Mustardseed

Mustardseed:

This IS the history of the Church, because this is the history that the founders of the Church WROTE, and the history that the Church PRESERVED.  I am sure there are many different "histories" that went on during this time.  But, this is the history as recorded by Christianity.

I am not playing both sides of anything.  The "histories" that I am sharing here I learned about through studying Christianity.  There is a GREAT deal that the church does not teach in Sunday School, or Sunday Worship Services.

Check out the website of the Catholic Encyclopedia:

www.newadvent.org/

This is the history of the Catholic Church.  The search engine is great, and the site contains A TON of information -- put in keywords, Constantine, the Council of Nicaea, Augustine, etc.  See what you come up with.

Also, put in keyword: Hades, Sheol, aeons, etc.  I have not studied these things specifically, and I have been a bit behind catching up on other questions.  I am trying to help everyone here, but when a few compromise my time, it is very easy to get behind.

I am researching a lot of this as the questions are posted.  You can help me if you like, by looking into this yourself, and then if you have any specific things that confuse you further, then I will be glad to help if I can.

Point taken. So the history you qoute is Christianity's view, possibly flawed and not absolute becaurse of the human factor. If that is the case then might it not be a possibility as well that the documents they used to translate the Bible could be copies of other documents that were real accounts of real happenings? This seems to be a matter of belief since there is no hard fact on either side and historical evidense is flawed.
Thanks for the link I will see what I come up with.
Regards Mustardseed

Beth,

quote:

---

Narrowpath, I believe that God can do what ever God wants to do. And if God is in charge of all things, then God is in charge of all things--if God created all things, then God created all things--including the Gnostics, the Christians, the Jews, the Muslims, the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Wiccans, etc., etc

---

This isn't true.  As I stated previously in this thread, all major religions are fundamentally different to a point at which they cannot be reconciled or considered on even ground, that is, they cannot all be paths to God, it is impossible.   God did not create all religions, this is a logical impossiblity based on my previous statement.  What God did was create the possiblity for man to create these religions, it is a logical result of free will.

As an example, did God create darkness?  Not really.  He created light and darkness is the absence of light.  Did God create evil?  No, it is the absence of good.

God created the people who believe in all religions, but he certainly didn't create all religions.

Good point Ex. I might add that the only thing God is not in control of is MAN. Free will is the "red thread" through out at least Christian belief. We are in charge of us. I used to say to my kids when they had gripes about the way others had treated them unfairly. That is their choice you can do nothing about that you are only in control of how you react towards them.
PS our preachings sure have a way of coming back and bite us in the butt dont they[;)]

exothen,

quote:

---

This isn't true. As I stated previously in this thread, all major religions are fundamentally different to a point at which they cannot be reconciled or considered on even ground, that is, they cannot all be paths to God, it is impossible. God did not create all religions, this is a logical impossiblity based on my previous statement.

---

This is a logic problem exothen--and you have arrived at a conclusion based upon conjectural premises--not truth.  

I will try to explain how this works:

You have started out with an apparently true statement

1) "all major religions are fundamentally different"

You then followed that with two conjectural (your opinion) premises:

2) "they cannot be reconciled or considered on even ground" (not necessarily...)
3) "they cannot all be paths to God, it is impossible" (your conjecture/opinion)

ERGO, "God did not create all religions."  This is a conclusion based "solely" on all three of your premises, but especially the third being assumed as Truth. In other words, you can perhaps make the first claim, but not the second and especially not the third.

I could just as easily come up with a totally different conclusion using the first two of your premises as you state them, and only slightly changing the third:

1) "all major religions are fundamentally different"
2)  they cannot be reconciled or considered on even ground" (not necessarily...)
3) it is possible that all paths lead to God. (My conjecture)

then it LOGICALLY follows that: God must have created all religions.

Do you understand the error of your logical premises??  The same formula can be "plugged in" with any data and it seems to be a correct conclusion, but it is the premises that need to be examined much more closely. Even your first premise is only "apparent" and not necessarily true, as is the second, but the third one is obviously conjecture.

So, to find the conclusion that you seek, the premise "can all paths lead to God?" must now be the starting premise of a new logical problem. If that problem can be solved, then you may have your answer validated.  But first--you must show where your third premise is TRUE.

Dear Beth
This is where you loose me. Lets start with the first all religions are different.

Well are they not?. Are 2 religions not different if one states .There is only one way to God, and the other say there are many ways to God.

In a way I am a bit embarressed to admit my mind often overloads when I read your posts(this is my problem not yours[:)]) I take it that you do understand yourself. I also cannot follow Einstein or any other great thinkers, so I have to have everything on the bottomshelf.

How about this

Question : Can all forms of beliefs be pleasing to God

1.If all forms of worship are pleasing to God then God has no specific standard relating to the way he is worshipped.

2.Any Religion that states that God accepts certain forms of worship and rejects others is either a lie or the truth


3.If it is the the truth the first statement  must be a lie, and the new statement will be

4.the notion that all forms of beliefs are pleasing to God is a lie.

So all we need is a religion that states that its particular form of worship is the only way to God.

Regards Mustardseed

Beth,

What you consider to be my third premise, I consider to be the logical conclusion.  I suppose my post wasn't exactly clear.  I basically equate "God did not make all religions" with "all paths cannot/do not lead to God."  Really, what you have labelled my 2nd and 3rd premises, are not really premises but conclusions that do follow from the 1st premise that "all religions are fundamentally different."

Before we get too far, I would like to change the argument and perhaps make things more clear:

P1) All religions are fundamentally contradictory to each other.
P2) God is a rational Being.
P3) Contradictory beliefs cannot all be true.
Therefore,
C1) God did not create all religions.

Seems too simple somehow and I am sure I am overlooking something or other, but I haven't taken a philosophy course as of yet.  So, following this through, we can also conclude that all paths do not, and cannot, lead to God since they are contradictory.

How's that?

Does anyone really believe that all religions are true?  It is better to say that all religions have some truth in them but even if it's only hints of it but not the whole thing and they are different paths to God all leading to the same place.  It's obvious that if they were to all be considered true then that would just be one huge contradiction.  Even if there was one right religion who is someone to say that it's thiers with all the different beliefs out there where people feel just as strongly about thier personal views?

Makaveli,

I believe there is only one religion that is true and that God has revealed himself through the teachings and literature of this religion.  If you want, we can get into the nature of God and why such a being would be sure to reveal himself to his creation.  We (meaning Beth;))could also post on what exactly are the fundamentals of each major religion and then see which is the most logically and existentially coherent option of the bunch.  But this may get us off topic, even though I'm not too sure if there is any one topic in here anymore.

Having said that, I do believe that all other religions may have truth in them, but this does not make them the one true religion, nor does it mean that their beliefs will lead to God.  Some options to be considered are the nature of "God," man's purpose and relation to this "God," and what, if indeed anything, is necessary for salvation and what this process entails.

exothen,

I would like to get into the nature of God but I don't think that there is one right religion.  If there was why are so many claiming to be "the right way"?  There is no way to objectively come to a conclusion on this because religions go by faith and belief which is fallible and all comes down to personal opinion.  If there was one religion that got people into heaven I don't think that is a characteristic of a fair and loving God because religion seems to be a product of environment.  If your raised in a Christian family you are most likely going to be a Christian and in a Buddhist family your probably going to grow up as a Buddhist.  If there is one right religion then it's just a gamble because with all the belief systems out there people of each faith can feel just as strongly about their faith as people of other beliefs do so it can't be decided that way.

makaveli,

quote:

---

There is no way to objectively come to a conclusion on this because religions go by faith and belief which is fallible and all comes down to personal opinion.

---

This is why I proposed using logic and reasoning.  There are some things in some religions that are contradictory.  Some religions are not at all logically coherent and should therefore be discarded.  Religion should engage and satisfy the mind as well as the heart.

quote:

---

If your raised in a Christian family you are most likely going to be a Christian and in a Buddhist family your probably going to grow up as a Buddhist.

---

That may appear to be true, but isn't necessarily.  People all around the world, especially in these times, are being exposed to all sorts of different religions and choose to change.  I would be interested to see in here just how many people abandoned the religion they grew up with.

quote:

---

If there is one right religion then it's just a gamble because with all the belief systems out there people of each faith can feel just as strongly about their faith as people of other beliefs do so it can't be decided that way.

---

But it isn't really a gamble and this would come out through rationally thinking about a supreme Being's nature?  What aspects best describe a "supreme Being?"  Omniscience?  Omnipotence?  Omnipresence?  Etc.  Then one could compare religions and see which best fits this idea of a supreme Being.

For me, I would rather believe some religion than none; a kind of Pascal's Wager.  But, as new religious ideas come across my path, I evaluate them and check them against what I believe to be true.  If it is a less rational belief, out the window it goes.  If it is a more rational belief...well, I honestly have not found a more rational belief yet, but I am open to it.

We have to remember that truth is absolute and as such, I believe that there is religious belief that is absolute.  From that anchor, one is free to compare beliefs and change them when necessary.  Other than that, one just floats around not knowing what to believe, and that is the real gamble.

exothen,

quote:

---

This is why I proposed using logic and reasoning.  There are some things in some religions that are contradictory.  Some religions are not at all logically coherent and should therefore be discarded.  Religion should engage and satisfy the mind as well as the heart.

---

I agree that religion should be looked at with logic and reasoning but even that can come down to opinion.  You could probably find contradictions and inconsistencies in all religions.  If we are talking about Christianity here or at least Allanon's views I find many inconsistencies and areas that just don't seem logical.  I could go into more detail about these but to me these are some of the things that don't make any logical sense like hell for eternity, Satan, original sin, literal interpretation of the bible, infalible bible, one true religion, babtism, worship, and jealous & vengefull & violent God just to name a few areas.  

Brue Moen makes some good points about Christianity here: http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/chris.html

This is a good chapter about religion from Robert Peterson:
http://www.robertpeterson.org/chap04.html

quote:

---

That may appear to be true, but isn't necessarily.  People all around the world, especially in these times, are being exposed to all sorts of different religions and choose to change.  I would be interested to see in here just how many people abandoned the religion they grew up with.

---

It certainly does not apply to all situations and there are many exeptions.  If you grew happened to grow up in a Muslim area you will most likely be Muslim and if not most of the people around you will be.  If it happened that the Mormons were the only ones who get into heaven would that be fair given the situation?  

quote:

---

But it isn't really a gamble and this would come out through rationally thinking about a supreme Being's nature?  What aspects best describe a "supreme Being?"  Omniscience?  Omnipotence?  Omnipresence?  Etc.  Then one could compare religions and see which best fits this idea of a supreme Being.

---

Just applying rational thinking won't lead to one religion and there are so many groups who are convinced that they have it figured out and that won't change if you ask them to think logically because with people of any religion who have deep belief it all seems to make sense to them.  Exactly what religion does rational thinking lead to?    

quote:

---

For me, I would rather believe some religion than none; a kind of Pascal's Wager.  But, as new religious ideas come across my path, I evaluate them and check them against what I believe to be true.  If it is a less rational belief, out the window it goes.  If it is a more rational belief...well, I honestly have not found a more rational belief yet, but I am open to it.

---

There is nothing wrong with that I would rather be open-minded to other possibilities and take parts of different religions that I agree with because I don't see one as being the way.  Religion is man made so it's not something I would get dogmatic about since there is no way of comprehending the whole truth at our level.  

quote:

---

We have to remember that truth is absolute and as such, I believe that there is religious belief that is absolute.  From that anchor, one is free to compare beliefs and change them when necessary.  Other than that, one just floats around not knowing what to believe, and that is the real gamble.

---

Religion is from man so I doubt any religion could contain the truth but probably parts of it.  We should get more into logically analyzing areas of a particular religion but if someone is so certain about what the truth is then it's just belief.

Namaste,
    OH MY GOD OH MY GOD OH MY GOD!!!!!!  HELLLLLOOOOOO!!!! OUT THERE!!!!!  HAS ANYONE EVER HEARD OF THE CONCEPT OF THE PARADOX???  THIS IS WHEN TWO CONTRADICTORY THINGS ARE, I REPEAT, ARE TRUE.  THIS IS THE NATURE OF NATURE.  NETI, NETI......GET IT!!!  GOD IS ALL AND NOTHING.  YOU AND NOT YOU.  INSIDE YOU AND OUTSIDE YOU.  CHRISTIANITY IS THE, YES THE ONLY WAY TO GOD!!!  AND SO IS FRIGGIN CONTEMPLATING YOUR DAMN NAVEL!!  GOD IS NOT LOGICAL.  LOGIC IS ONLY A TOOL OF THE MIND.  TO BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN UNDERSTAND GOD, PUT GOD, THIS "THING" THAT NOBODY REALLY KNOWS OR TRUELY UNDERSTANDS...IS [word edited out by moderator] ARROGANT.  DIDN'T SOMEONE GET KICKED OUT OF THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN VERSION OF "HEAVEN" FOR THAT VERY SIN?  i sincerely apologize for the ridiculous flaming....[xx(]

i was a bit flustered....my sincerity carried me away and my previous post should read, and i quote, Chapter 1 Verse 7: "TO BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN PUT GOD, THIS "THING" THAT NOBODY KNOWS OR TRUELY UNDERSTANDS, IN A BOX, LABEL IT AND BUILD UP A RIDICULOUS FRAMEWORK OF RITUAL, MAGICK, PIETY AND WHATEVER OTHER JUNK AROUND AND ON TOP OF IT, AND THEN CLAIM NOBODY ELSE WILL FIND IT UNLESS THE DIG THROUGH YOU OWN SPECIAL S**T PILE...IS.."  thanks again for bearing with the whole flaming thing, i just felt the Holy Ghost, Batman!  HEEHEE i am having a difficult time stopping this barrage of sarcasm aimed at the judeo-christian dogma and religion in general....bye

Logical thinking is a good way of evaluating beliefs but you won't find the truth through it.  I completely agree with this quote:

"Pure logical thinking cannot yield us any knowledge of the empirical world. All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it." (Albert Einstein)

Christians using logic, that's great.
It would take innumerable amounts of time to go through all the inherent and obvious contradictions and logical flaws with Christian dogma.
First of all, God cannot possibly be omnipotent, all powerful, and still give us free will. That is, if you assume as the Christians do, that god is a seperate being from yourself. Our having free will takes power from God and gives it to us. You cannot believe in both the omipotence and perfection of God while still believing in free will of humans.
I'll take the time to point out another large and very logically obvious problem with God. Let's assume he is, indeed, a rational being. This rational being makes life and the afterlife meaningless. He does not support progress in any way. He has some sort of almighty cutoff, in which one set of people are going to a place of eternal punishment to suffer - but without purpose (no result comes from this suffering, as it is eternal), whereas the other group are to be accepted into his heaven of perfection, where they shall remain in perfection forever - but without purpose (no progress, no nothing. Just perpetual perfection). In a simplistic mind this seems reasonable and even favorable, but contemplated on with just an average amount of rationale shows that god's afterlife makes no sense. And not in an awe inspiring, cosmic, too large to grasp non-sense way, in a 'wow, that's so pointless it's stupid' non-sense.

At any rate.

quote:

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all major religions are fundamentally different to a point at which they cannot be reconciled or considered on even ground

---

1. How can they possibly be unrelated when it is quite historically and factually obvious that they have all borrowed and copied from one another to varying extents? This is like saying because human skin color is different their genetics are impossibly unrelated.
2. How do you know that they cannot be reconciled? What research have you done into the many different religions, past and present form? What are you basing this on?

quote:

---

God did not create all religions, this is a logical impossiblity based on my previous statement. What God did was create the possiblity for man to create these religions, it is a logical result of free will.

---

that is the illogical stripping of God from his seat as creator and ruler of all. I won't even mention how illogical it is to conclude that all of the innumerable religions of the ages were constructed by man while one just happened to be constructed by the true God.
You simply can not stand to christian dogma and argue logic, at least without making use of extreme rationalizations, distortions of dogmas, and assumptions.

quote:

---

As an example, did God create darkness? Not really. He created light and darkness is the absence of light. Did God create evil? No, it is the absence of good.

---

Interesting. What does God creating light imply? Does it imply that darkness existed BEFORE God created light? This indicates darkness as being more eternal and higher than light and god. Or, does it imply that nothing existed before god created light, but that as a result of God's creation, darkness came into existance? This raises the question of responsibility. As God caused darkness to be created, is he not the creator of darkness? Or is the responsibility shirked to some natural phenomenon? Either way, he is the creator of darkness, indirectly or directly. In a universe created by God, nothing can simply 'come to be' outside of God's will. Or, again, he is neither omnipotent, nor the creator.

Be careful when throwing around things like logic.


[edit]
In addition, there is another logical problem with "evil is the absence of good". This is true, but at the same time the converse is also true. Good is the absence of evil. With that remark, you might argue that Satan (if such a thing existed [8)]) created the universe. On the other hand, indifference is the absence, and at the same time combination, of both. That last thing is something to ponder.

Whatever.

quote:

---

HAS ANYONE EVER HEARD OF THE CONCEPT OF THE PARADOX??? THIS IS WHEN TWO CONTRADICTORY THINGS ARE, I REPEAT, ARE TRUE.

---

No.  This is when two contradictory things appear to be true.  It comes from two Greek words that mean "to seem" and "contrary to expectation." Look it up in the dictionary, it will tell you.

quote:

---

AND SO IS FRIGGIN CONTEMPLATING YOUR DAMN NAVEL!!

---

I suppose so.  It would get one thinking of how they came to be...the idea of origins...genesis...

quote:

---

GOD IS NOT LOGICAL.

---

But yet you said, "TO BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN UNDERSTAND GOD, PUT GOD, THIS "THING" THAT NOBODY REALLY KNOWS OR TRUELY UNDERSTANDS...IS F***KING ARROGANT" and "THIS "THING" THAT NOBODY KNOWS OR TRUELY UNDERSTANDS"

Apparently you are the only one than who understands and knows God since you seem to know that he is not logical, which would make you the one who is arrogant.  Not only that, it self-destructs your idea that we cannot know God.

quote:

---

LOGIC IS ONLY A TOOL OF THE MIND.

---

Only some minds apparently.

quote:

---

Chapter 1 Verse 7: "TO BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN PUT GOD, THIS "THING" THAT NOBODY KNOWS OR TRUELY UNDERSTANDS, IN A BOX, LABEL IT AND BUILD UP A RIDICULOUS FRAMEWORK OF RITUAL, MAGICK, PIETY AND WHATEVER OTHER JUNK AROUND AND ON TOP OF IT, AND THEN CLAIM NOBODY ELSE WILL FIND IT UNLESS THE DIG THROUGH YOU OWN SPECIAL S**T PILE...IS.."

---

Well that would all depend on whether or not God has revealed himself, which is kind of the whole point of the last few posts.  You are making it much more difficult than it really is.  

If you have anything of value to add to the discussion, feel free.

Makaveli,

quote:

---

I could go into more detail about these but to me these are some of the things that don't make any logical sense like hell for eternity, Satan, original sin, literal interpretation of the bible, infalible bible, one true religion, babtism, worship, and jealous & vengefull & violent God just to name a few areas.

---

But within the framework of Christianity these things are all coherent, there is no contradiction  between them.

quote:

---

If you grew happened to grow up in a Muslim area you will most likely be Muslim and if not most of the people around you will be.

---

I do agree, but at the same time we have to remember that people will make the choice to change their beliefs if they have good reason to do so.  All I want to point out is that it is not necessarily so.

quote:

---

If it happened that the Mormons were the only ones who get into heaven would that be fair given the situation?

---

Of course not, but good thing we don't have to worry.

quote:

---

Just applying rational thinking won't lead to one religion and there are so many groups who are convinced that they have it figured out and that won't change if you ask them to think logically because with people of any religion who have deep belief it all seems to make sense to them. Exactly what religion does rational thinking lead to?

---

And you are close to hitting the nail on the head as to why most people do reject Christianity and any religious belief altogether - they simply don't want to.  It is a matter of the will, not the mind or the heart.

Of course, being a Christian, you already know how I would answer your question.  I have found that Christianity is the most intellectually coherent and rational religion that makes the most sense for the state of the world and those who live in it.

quote:

---

There is nothing wrong with that I would rather be open-minded to other possibilities and take parts of different religions that I agree with because I don't see one as being the way. Religion is man made so it's not something I would get dogmatic about since there is no way of comprehending the whole truth at our level.

---

No, there is nothing wrong with being open-minded, but when it comes down to it, being open-minded for too long can have eternal consequences.  And this is why I have stated earlier that Christianity's claims must be investigated most earnestly with an open heart and mind as the consequences effect both life and death, for eternity.

This is why I say, start somewhere, get grounded in something, and then start comparing different religious beliefs to see which is closest to the truth - the truth being that which corresponds to reality.

Also, one must be careful of becoming complacent, for lack of a better term, about searching or believing that one can find the truth by believing that we cannot understand the whole truth anyway.  I do agree that the finite cannot comprehend the infinite, however, I believe that, being made in the image of the Creator, we have the capacity to comprehend most truth and to rationally determine if it is indeed something that is true.  There will always be an element of faith involved, but it need not be all faith or blind faith.

quote:

---

Religion is from man so I doubt any religion could contain the truth but probably parts of it

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I would agree that all religious institutions are man-made and that if there is only one true religion, then the rest must be man-made.  However, I do believe that God has created man for a purpose and as such, has revealed himself to show us this purpose in such a way that one might say he founded the religion.  From there, man made it into something else, maybe even something it was not meant to be.

Tab,

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First of all, God cannot possibly be omnipotent, all powerful, and still give us free will. That is, if you assume as the Christians do, that god is a seperate being from yourself. Our having free will takes power from God and gives it to us. You cannot believe in both the omipotence and perfection of God while still believing in free will of humans.

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Why not?  How are they incompatible?  Free will in no way contradicts the the idea of omnipotence.  God has sovereignly given man free will, but this free will is limited in that we cannot become God ourselves.  I really don't see how having free will takes power from God.

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Let's assume he is, indeed, a rational being. This rational being makes life and the afterlife meaningless. He does not support progress in any way. He has some sort of almighty cutoff, in which one set of people are going to a place of eternal punishment to suffer - but without purpose (no result comes from this suffering, as it is eternal), whereas the other group are to be accepted into his heaven of perfection, where they shall remain in perfection forever - but without purpose (no progress, no nothing. Just perpetual perfection).

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By being perfect forever does not mean that an afterlife in heaven will be meaningless.  It means that there will be an eternity to explore and learn and just to be in the presence of God.  I suspect your idea comes from cartoons that show that people in heaven just sit around and play harps all day/eternity. The Bible says that there will be a new heaven and a new earth (kind of like how science has found that the universe is winding down and will crash someday), so one can only speculate at the infinite possbilities at life in heaven.

Does eternal punishment have to have some sort of final purpose?  Maybe that will be what hell is like - an eternal "life" with absolutely no purpose, just meaningless existence. Eternal torment - torment comes from within, not from without (torture), at what could have been but what now is. What could be worse than that?

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. How can they possibly be unrelated when it is quite historically and factually obvious that they have all borrowed and copied from one another to varying extents?

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Similarities do not mean that all religions borrowed from one another.  That conclusion simply does not follow.  It would first have to be proven that they all did borrow from one another and that hasn't been done.  I would argue that some similarities may reflect God's revelation to man, but from there, man takes them and makes something out of them that was never intended.

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This is like saying because human skin color is different their genetics are impossibly unrelated.

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No, it is more like saying because my skin is white, that I am a sheet of paper.  You are saying that religions are the fundamentally the same, just different on the outside, but most similiarites are on the outside, while fundamentally they are worlds apart.

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2. How do you know that they cannot be reconciled? What research have you done into the many different religions, past and present form? What are you basing this on?

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I haven't done nearly as much studying as I would like, but I have read a bit on Hinduism and some of its branches, Buddhism, Islam and Judaism.  I will be taking religious studies courses, so no worries.  But even at the level I have done them (I usually go straight to the heart), I can see that they are vastly different.  I did give some of the main areas where they are different.

What is interesting to note is that those who are outside of these religions seem to have some special revelation that those inside of them don't, namely, that they are all essentially the same.  Whereas if you asked adherents of these religions (and not just Christians), they would agree that they are very different.

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that is the illogical stripping of God from his seat as creator and ruler of all. I won't even mention how illogical it is to conclude that all of the innumerable religions of the ages were constructed by man while one just happened to be constructed by the true God.

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And just how is that "the illogical stripping of God from his seat as creator and ruler of all?"  To say that God did create them all is to say that either he didn't know what he was doing, that he didn't care, or that he is not a rational being.  Each of those options undermines God to the point that he is no longer God, in the sense of being omnipotent and omniscient.

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Interesting. What does God creating light imply? Does it imply that darkness existed BEFORE God created light? This indicates darkness as being more eternal and higher than light and god. Or, does it imply that nothing existed before god created light, but that as a result of God's creation, darkness came into existance?

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This is interesting.  From a Christian standpoint, the Bible says that God is Light and that there is no darkness in him.  It is very likely that God exists in a dimension outside of our own universe and that the creation of light was only in regards to the 4 dimensions that we live in.  So perhaps it is an intermingling of your second question with my initial point.  Darkness did come into existence at creation, but only because it was in the absence of the light of God.  I'll have to ponder that one a little more. [?]

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In addition, there is another logical problem with "evil is the absence of good". This is true, but at the same time the converse is also true. Good is the absence of evil. With that remark, you might argue that Satan (if such a thing existed ) created the universe. On the other hand, indifference is the absence, and at the same time combination, of both.

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Hmm....From a Christian standpoint, God is perfectly good and as such he cannot be evil. Since he has always existed, good has always existed. But God created beings with free will which gave them the capacity to choose to do good, or go against that good. Satan (yes, such a thing exists [:)]) chose to do wrong thereby rejecting the good and creating, or introducing, evil. But Satan is still a created being which means he is not omnipotent or omniscient.  Still pondering...just some thinking outloud...

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