Understanding Christianity!

[Hannah b]

  oh boy...here we go again...I can'd decide whether to laugh or cry

[James S]

oh boy...here we go again...I can'd decide whether to laugh or cry

I so agree!
It's like basic logic and common sense become completely obsolete in the face of religious interpretation.

I think these interpretations are starting to become less convincing to more people for exactly the reason Mindfreak stated - more people are now turning towards the development of their own conscious awareness.

Mez,
I absolutely loved your post!
I couldn't agree more with what you said.

[DH]

Actually Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was a Muslim.
I (Muhammad SAW) have been commanded only to worship the Lord of this city (Makkah), Him Who has sanctified it and His is everything(in the universe). And I am commanded to be from among the Muslims (those who submit to Allah in Islam). [Surah An-Naml 27:91]

Is this a sudden reincarnation of Jeehad  or another Muslim brother with tunnel vision?   

I too appreciate the recent posts of Mez and Mindfreak.  They resonate with me because I feel the Inspiration of all religions is the Source that unites us all; and the Source is Unconditional Love that calls us beyond ourselves to help others discover the Source within themselves.  This does not compute with the fundamentalists of Christianity and Islam (and other groups) for whom unconditional love makes no sense.

DH

[abu-usaama]

Im simply correcting ignorance, DH.

Thanks,

Abu-Usaama

[James S]

Oh the irony!

[star]

I thought the Islamic countries promoted Homosexuality, that which I don't agree with, personally.

..
In Moslem nations, the suppression of liaison between men and women outside prearranged wedlock has produced frustrated sexual tension that has sought and found release in homosexual intercourse through the centuries. Those denied access to licit sexuality have sought and obtained outlets that have produced chronic contradiction between normative morality and social realities. Male and female prostitution and same-sex practices — including abuse of young boys by their older male relatives — have been rampant in Islamic societies from the medieval to the modern period. It should be emphasized that those societies stress a distinction between the sexual act itself, which was deemed acceptable, and emotional attachment, which was unpardonable..

http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Printable.asp?ID=5704

The article also speaks about how you have decided to punish.  Really, aggression was rampant and destructive ideals were abound in the Middle East long before any American Immigration or influence, military or otherwise.

[violetlight]

was going to ask a quetion, but thought better of it.

[Apeman]

Christianity = Muslim = Judaism = Hinduism = Jews = All Organized Religion

Oppo-Sames  - agree to disagree but the basics are the same.

Religion came from Paganism in the early 42nd Century 

Judge other religions for not following Christ:

Whoever denies "that Jesus is the Christ" is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

Christians are "of God;" everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

The non-Christian is "a deceiver and an anti-Christ" 2 John 1:7

Anyone who doesn't share Paul's beliefs has "an evil heart." Hebrews 3:12

False Jews are members of "the synagogue of Satan." Revelations 2:9, 3:9


With Love

[Mustardseed]

All religions are not the same at all. It is a nice sort of glib comment and it is a great catch phrase but..........profoundly untrue. I would agree that all people are the same but religions differ in countless ways.

As I suggested in another thread why not discuss what the different religions actually teach as stated in their holy books, not what the people who profess to the same religions actually do.

There are many different questions one could ask, a few comes to mind.

1 What is the believer instructed to do with someone who leaves the faith

2 How is the believer to view unbelievers and how is he or she instructed to behave toward them.

3 Is Violence by believers toward unbelievers condoned or even accepted

Questions like these show clearly the difference in the various religions, and paints a picture of the "religion" better than anything. As I said it is obvious to all that Bush as an example is a poor example of a Christian, and Osama Bin Laden is a very good Muslim. Bush does not act in accordance with what the Bible teaches. Osama however is in strict obedience to Islam, the Koran and the Hadith.

There are many other questions as well

Regards Mustardseed

[Mohamed]

Religious debates are absurd.  I am a Muslim because I find peace, serenity, logic and perfection in my faith just as many other persons in different faiths do.

Mustardseed,

I remember a few years ago when you had a deep interest in Islam; I see that has changed.  I would like to make a correction to your reply.  You said:

"Osama Bin Laden is a very good Muslim... strict obedience to Islam, the Koran and the Hadith."

In whose opinion Mustardseed?  The majority of Muslims world wide consider Osama a "munafiq" or hypocrite.  Believe it or not, but the media koolade that we chug down everyday is wrong when it portrays people like those as prominent figures in Islam.  In reality, the fundamental sects of Islam are few and their followers scarce in comparison to the five original schools, namely Ja'afari, Maliki, Hanafi, Shafi, and Hanbali which comprise about 98% of the Muslim population.  Of course, as with any religion, there are fundamentalist individuals in every sect.

I haven't read any of your other posts, namely those which Jeehad claims are offensive towards my faith, nor do I intend to read them.

DebInUSA,

I am going to ignore what you said about the Bible, simply because I do not wish to engage in a religious debate - the outcomes of such things are always the same.  I do wish to correct some errors in your reply though.

"The difference in the Quran and the Bible is that Christians have tens of thousands of manuscripts we can always go back to and check to see if what we have is correct or not.  Muslims have zero manuscripts."

This is false.  In fact, we have a complete intact Qur'an from the Uthmaani Caliphate which dates back to only a few years after the Prophet's death.

"The Quran used to have all kinds of different copies...and I mean totally different Qurans, not just different interpretations of words, until some leader picked out one and decided to burn the others."

A common misconception passed on through answeringislam.com.  Actually most of what you said here can be found on answeringislam.com - I hope you aren't relying on only one source of information.  There where seven different copies of the Qur'an before the Uthmaani Caliphate, the differences between them were merely due to the dialects of the regions in which the Qur'an was recited.  The seven copies are not lost forever, in fact we still have all seven of them and if you would like to do more research you can go ahead and take a look at them for yourself (And I don't mean screenshots on answeringislam.com).  I'm sure you'll conclude that their meanings are exactly the same.  Although I don't completely agree with Uthmaan's decision (burning copies of differing dialects), the end result was favorable as the dialect in which the Holy Prophet Muhammad (S) preached the Qur'an is what made it into the official world wide version - in which one of the originals is still intact and is exactly like the Qur'an I have in my house.

"Also, the Quran verses are not even in chronological order.  It is written with the longest or shortest verses first...can't recall which one."

This is ludicrous.  The verses are in chronological order, the chapters are not.  The longer chapters are towards the beginning and the shorter ones towards the end - what does this have to do with anything?

"Why do you think Africa is quickly turning into a Christian country all of a sudden?"

How seriously do you expect anyone to take your words when you believe Africa is a country?

Oh, and one more:

"Pagans actually did have a moon God named Allah, by the way."

This is laughable on so many levels.  If this truly were the case then the pagan Arabs would have had no qualms about converting to Islam.  By the way, where is your archaeological evidence for this claim?

Jeehad,

I haven't read any of the other threads on here and I'm not sure what has gotten you so riled up but I'd like to remind you that conversion is not in our hands, it is a process that occurs within an individual with the help of Allah (SWT).  We can guide by teaching Islam and showing its perfection, logic and beauty but we can not convert anyone.  Attacking another's religion will only anger them and push them away, isolating them from the path; in essence, worsening their ailment.

We are Muslims because we see the perfection of the faith.  Our hearts are humbled and we are content - we have nothing to prove.  Allah (SWT) told mankind:  "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." [2:256]

Teach Islam, and correct any misconceptions others may have.  If they don't want to be a Muslim, that is their own business - the Holy Prophet Muhammad (S) did not force anyone into Islam and neither should we.  He preached the word and mankind listened, and we followed.  Soon Islam will be the largest religion on Earth.

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

PS  One more thing.  Mustardseed said:

"Islam rules the mideast, and the result is chaos."

Actually, Britain toppled the Ottoman Empire and occupied Middle Eastern territories... and the result is chaos.  I'm sure you know all of the historical facts so I won't reiterate them.

[Mustardseed]

Religious debates are absurd. 

I remember a few years ago when you had a deep interest in Islam; I see that has changed. 
In whose opinion Mustardseed? 

The majority of Muslims world wide consider Osama a "munafiq" or hypocrite. 

I haven't read any of your other posts, namely those which Jeehad claims are offensive towards my faith, nor do I intend to read them.


I haven't read any of the other threads on here and I'm not sure what has gotten you so riled up but I'd like to remind you that conversion is not in our hands, it is a process that occurs within an individual with the help of Allah (SWT).  We can guide by teaching Islam and showing its perfection, logic and beauty but we can not convert anyone.  Attacking another's religion will only anger them and push them away, isolating them from the path; in essence, worsening their ailment.

We are Muslims because we see the perfection of the faith.  Our hearts are humbled and we are content - we have nothing to prove.  Allah (SWT) told mankind:  "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." [2:256]

Teach Islam, and correct any misconceptions others may have.  If they don't want to be a Muslim, that is their own business - the Holy Prophet Muhammad (S) did not force anyone into Islam and neither should we.  He preached the word and mankind listened, and we followed.  Soon Islam will be the largest religion on Earth.

One more thing.  Mustardseed said:

"Islam rules the mideast, and the result is chaos."

Actually, Britain toppled the Ottoman Empire and occupied Middle Eastern territories... and the result is chaos.  I'm sure you know all of the historical facts so I won't reiterate them.

My dear  Mohamad

I will try to address some of the issues you bring to the table, in the hope of a continued debate. I am flattered that you noticed my earlier posts, may I ask what name you used to use?

First I would like to note that weather you think it absurd or not a religious debate, both within and without the Muslim and Christian societies is very needed, if not imperative. The fact is that faith, namely faith in Islam, is the fuel for terrorism as we know it perpetrated by Muslims world wide, and Christianity is being used as a cover for folks like Bush, who goes to was with a Bible in his hand.

I am still interested in Islam, but I am starting to see some of the problems inherent to the faith in a bit clearer light. If you claim that these do not exist I urge you to open your eyes and take a look around. It in my opinion then it is you who should ask yourself " How long have you (I) been living under that rock nestled deep within that isolated cave you call home?" (Can munafiq be used in this connection? )

If you continue to only read what is not offensive to you, you are indeed isolated my brother. I myself am very offended by your pompous claim of superiority but I am not going to let it stop me from addressing you.

Islam is not the fastest growing religion on earth, and it is a fact that the western world will NEVER embrace such a faith. It blows my mind that you cannot see that. The mideast is in flames, the Muslims, all using the Koran, kill each other with relish, and Islam is threatening to burn the world. It is not at all a religion of peace but of war. Like someone said it is a war between 2 worlds. I have lived many years in the mideast and I know. Have you? if you do live in the mideast why don't you take a good look at your society and imagine it ruling the world.

About the Ottoman empire you argument follow no sense. It may have been the British that topled the kingdom but they have had plenty of time to figure it out.................why have they not yet figured it out, why is there war in the mideast.................ISLAM

Regards Mustardseed

[Mohamed]

Wow, and you wonder why James takes every opportunity to smite you.  I've studied Christianity and know far more about the faith than many Christians do - maybe even more than you.  You've got a lit match and you're looking for fuel.  I've got a soothing balm and I'm looking to calm the heart and open the mind.  Many people would rather dip their hands in fire than in cool soothing water.  What do you have to prove, Mustard, when you claim to be so content with your faith?

Hatred and intolerance is a lit fuel which accepts more fire.  Calm the flame, then ask yourself why you feel the need to prove yourself - and don't try to deny it either, it's as evident as the air we breath.

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

P.S.  I don't know you from your old posts.  I know you from a PM which you sent me a long time ago asking me to give you information about Islam.  I think I sent you a link to http://harunyahya.com/ and possibly some other sites.

[Mustardseed]

Wow, and you wonder why James takes every opportunity to smite you.  I've studied Christianity and know far more about the faith than many Christians do - maybe even more than you.  You've got a lit match and you're looking for fuel.  I've got a soothing balm and I'm looking to calm the heart and open the mind.  Many people would rather dip their hands in fire than in cool soothing water.  What do you have to prove, Mustard, when you claim to be so content with your faith?

Hatred and intolerance is a lit fuel which accepts more fire.  Calm the flame, then ask yourself why you feel the need to prove yourself - and don't try to deny it either, it's as evident as the air we breath.

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

Dear Mohamed

Thanks for the reply. I will try to address your points.

Firstly I was not aware James was trying to smite me at every opportunity maybe I should ask him if that is so. This comment is actually in all its supposed "innocence" very divisive. It is aimed at driving a wedge between James and I. For your information, we have known each other for a while, and though we might not see eye to eye on many things, we try to stay focused and on topic. Neither of us are too damaged by the others frank statements and I can assure you that James has no hidden "smite Mustardseed" agenda. I know him well enough to say that. What do you think James.........am I right about that, or are you looking for opportunity to "smite me".........This is called a division, something very clearly covered in the Bible actually. With your Superior knowledge you should be able to tell me where that is covered.?

As for your very eloquent metaphors of lit matches and calm waters, I can only smile and conclude that you are skirting the issue. Like so many Muslims these days you employ such lofty metaphors to bring the discussion to where it should not be namely you and I. My issue is with Islam, not you. Lets talk about that instead.

You make such big statements and your pompous claim of Superior knowledge are easily made, but I beg to differ. Like most Muslims you really do not understand the core of Christianity at all, but instead study it to attempt to refute its validity. You, like so many, dwell on the history of the OT and have a very marginal understanding of the whole, basically because you read it, looking at it on the backdrop of your own beliefs, as I said, not to truly examine it but only to show yourself Superior. This is not unlike my own approach to the Koran these days, but I am aware of this bias and try hard to avoid it.

Are you a citizen of the Mideast or are you residing in the west?

Lets talk substance and kindly avoid the metaphors, just stick to the facts please.

Regards Mustardseed

[Mohamed]

Peace Mustardseed,

I find it interesting that you would devote about 25% of your reply in doing what you have clearly denounced - division.  My comment was based purely on a reply which you had made to one of James' comments stating something similar, no other intention was implied or sought after.

I also find it interesting, my dear Mustard, that on one hand you wish to discuss Islam, yet on the other you attempt to provoke me with subtle comments - a tactic well worth the title of Christian.  You see my friend, Islam teaches us to avoid anger.  The Holy Prophet Muhammad (S) stated that humanity should strive for Allah SWT, but if a man becomes angry, he no longer strives for Allah SWT but for himself.  If you wish any intelligent dialogue with a Muslim who follows the path and the word, then you must shed yourself of the intolerance rooted within you - because it is that intolerance that causes you to seek anger to fuel your debates.  This is a perfect example of the peace found within Islam, and the hatred bred amongst Christians (and might I add, not all Christians are like Mustard - many are a peace loving people).

Also, try not to misunderstand Mr. Seed.  I purposely chose to ignore your other threads and religious banter simply because I've encountered it all before.  If faithfreedom and answeringIslam were books, I could say I have read them both cover to cover - several times.  Answering Islam's main problem is their use of translated Arabic for their claims, and the Arabic sources they do provide are obscure and widely unaccepted.  Faith Freedom, unlike most sites which take verses out of context, takes words out of context and then gives them meaning which they do not have.  Just goes to show you how far individuals or groups of individuals are willing to go to discredit what they know is true.

If metaphors are too much for you Mustard, then I shall speak frankly from now on.  I can't help but wonder though; does this also mean that you take the bible literally?

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

[Mustardseed]

If you wish any intelligent dialogue with a Muslim who follows the path and the word, then you must shed yourself of the intolerance rooted within you - because it is that intolerance that causes you to seek anger to fuel your debates.  This is a perfect example of the peace found within Islam, and the hatred bred amongst Christians (and might I add, not all Christians are like Mustard - many are a peace loving people).

I purposely chose to ignore your other threads and religious banter simply because I've encountered it all before.  If faithfreedom and answeringIslam were books, I could say I have read them both cover to cover - several times.  Answering Islam's main problem is their use of translated Arabic for their claims, and the Arabic sources they do provide are obscure and widely unaccepted.  Faith Freedom, unlike most sites which take verses out of context, takes words out of context and then gives them meaning which they do not have.  Just goes to show you how far individuals or groups of individuals are willing to go to discredit what they know is true.

If metaphors are too much for you Mustard, then I shall speak frankly from now on.  I can't help but wonder though; does this also mean that you take the bible literally?

Ok well lets get to it then.

I realise that we come from 2 very different backgrounds. You think me to be a infidel, simple and possibly fighting the truth as I "know" it in my heart. Furthermore I am a Christian and by definition, misguided and in the wrong.

I on my part see you as rather ignorant and also misguided, and very elitist to say the least. Pompous and self righteous and so on. Let us just agree that we look to each other much the same, and since this is the case lets just leave this very tedious subject and get to the core of the discussion.

My answer to your question is that I am not sure at the moment. There was a time when I believed in a much more literal version of the Bible, but having spent several years now, studying these things for myself, as well as having had extensive experiences with OBEs, I am starting to lean much more to the belief that the Bible is in part allegorical. This would cover much of the OT and possibly some of the new as well. How much I am not sure. I have read the Bible for years as you have read the Koran I guess, and it is still unfolding in front of my very eyes, much like a mystical manuscript. I do believe in the message in the life of Jesus namely peace toward God and others, but find it hard as a human to live up to at times. I am comforted nevertheless as this shortcoming is also covered in tenants of my faith.

Let me ask you a few questions. First a personal one . Are you residing in a Muslim country?

Do you believe that in order to fully understand the content of the Koran and the Hadith one must understand Arabic?

Do you believe in Sharia law?

Regards Mustardseed

[Mohamed]

I on my part see you as rather ignorant and also misguided, and very elitist to say the least. Pompous and self righteous and so on. Let us just agree that we look to each other much the same, and since this is the case lets just leave this very tedious subject and get to the core of the discussion.

Let me ask you a few questions. First a personal one . Are you residing in a Muslim country?

Do you believe that in order to fully understand the content of the Koran and the Hadith one must understand Arabic?

Do you believe in Sharia law?

Regards Mustardseed

Mustardseed,

"Let us just agree that we look to each other much the same"

Why should I agree to this ridiculous statement?  Once again you have proved your intolerance towards my faith.  You see me as an ignorant and rather misguided person yet you do not even know me.  I am far more optimistic towards strangers my friend.  Or is it because I am a Muslim?  Over and over again you give me reasons as to why I should simply wave my hand at your religious ramblings.

I'm going to fill you in on a little secret.  At least, it is a secret to many Christians.  I have recently taken up Hebrew as a fourth language - one because I wanted to read the Bible in its native tongue and two, my girlfriend is Jewish.  You see Mustard; the Bible becomes so much more wondrous in Hebrew than when it is read in English or any other translation at that.  Of course it can be understood in English, but to fully understand the jest of it all - that requires knowledge in Hebrew.  Much like the Qur'an; the Qur'an can be read and understood in any translation - but to fully understand what is revealed to mankind, it must be read in its native tongue, Arabic.

As for your question; do you take me as a fool Mustard?  I've stated in my first post that religious debates are absurd - do not attempt to turn this into a debate; such an attempt is futile.

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

[Mustardseed]

  Ok and the reason that you post in a religious discussion forum is............?

I suppose I must then conclude that the reason is that you like to come here can be 2 things.

1. Either you come to convert ............proselytise

2. or simply to spout of your pompous Superior points of views, for some obscure egocentric reason.  You seem to take pleasure in extolling your Superior moral stand and personal behaviour, as well as the superiority of your personal faith. 

In short you are nothing but a troll, "my dear Muhamed" a flamer in disguise, who get some personal pleasure or may I say kicks, from joining a discussion forum, (read : DISCUSSION FORUM) adding a few lofty comments here and there, dropping a few of your "golden words of wisdom" , to the "masses" of (in your case) infidels, pompously extolling the great and "in-discussable" virtues of YOUR religion, only to soon after swing your holstered leg over the side of your proud mount and ride into the glorious sunset. Not a shot was fired no debate was entered, you simply succeed in silencing anyone questioning by referring to your very impressive Religious and theological knowledge base, leaving behind you a crowd of gaping yet subdued onlookers. (how's for metaphors  )

Very slick "my dear Muhammad" very slick indeed. If internet trolls and flamers were books I read them all .

Let me for a minute ask my question again. If you find a religious discussion absurd......why are you here

If you want to discuss your religion or even my religion, please do post anytime you feel like it and I shall be glad to answer. The topic we are currently debating in this.........DEBATING FORUM .........is Understanding Christianity. For your information there are a slew of them on them web page, actually the whole site is devoted to debate and discussions on various topics.

Regards Mustardseed

PS I take it that you are fluent in Arabic then, can you divulge this information or is this too much to tell.

[Mohamed]

Oh cut the crap Mustard; this is a discussion forum not a boxing ring.  Besides, I have no qualms with discussing (note, I said discussing, not debating) religion - unless of course the other party of the discussion is (are) a fanatical Christian/Muslim/Jew/Pagan or whatever else they may be.  The arguments of religious extremists carry the least bit of significance with me.

You have made it quite clear, my dear friend, that your mind is closed, your eyes blind, your voice mute, and your ears deaf to the reality all around us.  You claim the Mid East is one giant war zone yet you choose to ignore that the only areas of the Mid East with any significant "war zone status" is Palestine, Israel, Iraq, and Afghanistan.  You claim that the Middle East is backward yet you ignore the innovations brought to the world by the UAE as well as the great technological strives in modern engineering.  When such basic things are ignored and even denied how then do you expect me to take anything that comes out of your brain with any significance?

You also stated that Islam rules the Middle East and the result is chaos yet you choose to ignore the fact that Islam ruled a great deal of the 'then known world' and the result was scientific and technological innovation the likes of which humanity had never seen before.

Islam has, and still continues to positively influence the world we live in.  Only when extremists (not just Islamic) put their hands in the mix do certain small rogue groups form and/or gain strength, and then with the help of our media do people like you become de-educated (and even equate Islam as a whole with what is presented to you).  If you want to learn more about Islam Mustard, then first look within you and remove the dark tar that fills your being.  Then you need to start asking questions that are productive to your growth and knowledge in and of Islam.  I'll give you a few examples.

Good Questions:

-  I don't quite understand such and such verse in the Qur'an, would you elaborate for me?
-  I learned in my Church that Muslims believe in such and such, is that true?  If so how can you believe such a thing?
-  I read on so and so site that there is such and such error in the Qur'an, is this true?  Can you prove otherwise?
-  I see plenty of women in the Middle East covering their hair/skin/anything visible to the eye, is this really taught in Islam?  Could you prove your stance by showing exactly where it is taught (or taught against)?

Bad Questions:

-  How do you view the current Israeli / Palestinian conflict?
-  Do you believe in sharia law?
-  Jesus is god and will forgive your sins if you accept him (yeah it's not a question but God only knows what extremists view as questions).
-  If you are a US citizen, how would you feel if such and such law system of such and such nation where imposed on you?

As you can see, the good questions are related to a religious dialogue where as the bad questions are aimed towards gathering information about personal beliefs and/or picking a fight.

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

[Mustardseed]

Dear Muhamad

I will try my best to take your suggestions into consideration. I do have a few questions that I hope you will be able to elaborate on.

1 Having read the Koran extensively over the last years and having researched the doctrine of Aborgation, I would like your take on this issue. Aborgation, to substitute one sura for another, appears to be a valid doctrine and certainly one that is used my Islamic Koran scholars throughout the world. According to this doctrine the later (timewise) command given is supposed to substitute any earlier command, making it easier to find the will of Allah, in a given area. 

2 If the Koran is only understood by those who read and understand CA, how do the masses of muslims who do not command this language comprehend the text. Do you yourself speak or understand Ca? If not how do you feel your understanding of the text benefit?

For now these are my questions, if you have any questions about Christianity I shall be glad to reply and try my best to answer them as much as I have the knowledge.

Regards Mustardseed