What do religions or you say about homosexuality?

[Gandalf]

In other words, what wisp is saying is that people who don't agree with christian doctrine are wrong or 'misled' in some way.

This is one of the reasons why so many people stopped listning to christian rhetoric years ago.

btw, seeing how this topic has been hijacked into being a font for yet more christian debate, can I suggest someone moves this thread into the christian forums (as homosexuality is such a christian hangup, it would seem appropriate for discussion there).

Douglas

[wisp]

Gee Gandalf,
I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. I was trying to smooth the ripples of dissent, at least in my own mind. I'm guilty.
I'm into mind language. I don't know a thing about what goes on in churches, let alone any doctrine! If it comes out sounding like that, I must be on the right track.

Churches have a sytem of one mind. I'm very into christian beliefs. I practice my own faith independently. I was only clarifying a point reguarding a reference to a loose use of terms. When a church (one mind) has a set standard of meanings of names, it's important that off shoots or varients from this be recognized. I was only making that point clear.

As far as homosexuality goes, I have no opinion what so ever on the matter. I was only reading the thread.

The Holy Spirit has a meaning to each person in their own way. Misunderstandings occur when one person uses a collective term for their own use or point. That's a pretty common thing to happen. Just keeping it in prospective.Maybe I was out of line.

[Mustardseed]

People have been trying for years to seperate the spiritual from the physical with little luck. It seems that the person you are in the physical the same you are in the spiritual. In other words your traits is somehow spiritually determined. I put down a thread called Matrix enigma take a look and see what you think.I find it soo unfair that as soon as a Christian has a opinion the thread is removed and the bells and whistles goes off. Lets just have a opinion ok!!
Regards MS

[Gandalf]

This is why people who join the Dark Forces (not to sound like George Lucas here) become soulless entities who hate everything alive. Because they lose their free will and are slaves to the darkness. This is why it is not a sin for gays to be gay. It's as simple as God not judging them.
EnderWiggin
-------------------------------

OH....MY....GOD.....

Just when I thought we might be making progress.
EnderWiggen's attempts to be 'reasonable' here to gay people is laughable..
Now he equates gay people with 'the forces of darkness'...

btw I notice you mention the 'dark forces', I presume you are one of those paranoid-christian types who believe that there is a 'global satanic conspiricy' aimed at destroying the 'good people' of christiandom; members of this conspiracy include (knowingly or unknowingly) people of non-christian faiths, or even people of other CHRISTIAN faiths who belong to a different mistaken branch of christinaity (Heratics...burn them!), Gays, pagans (kill the heathens!), hell, even blacks and 'japs'.

Sorry if I am exagerating what you are saying here; I realise that you are (hopefully) not as extreme as that but I have come across people who really do hold such beliefs; the worse thing is they are not even a minority but actually a significant portion of the 'bible belt' regions of the US and the south (although of course still a minority in the US as a whole); the paradox is that these people hold the above beliefs and yet consider themselves 'good people'.

I am just slightly concerned as your statement doesn seem that far away from the more extreme versions I have heard in the past.

Douglas

[The AlphaOmega]

Christianity teaches us to accept all mankind without judgement.  It is Gods place to judge at the end, not ours.  "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" comes to mind.  And the ten commandments do not say "thou shalt not be a homo".  Fact is the world finds reasons to accept or reject people because of their sexual preferences, but I don't believe God does.  Homosexual or not, we are all His children... and His children are loved.  Fact is, how CAN we judge?  For those of us who are straight try imagining having feelings for and being attracted to a member of the same sex.  It's inconcievable to me!  Perhaps it's just as inconcievable for a homosexual to imagine being straight.  Maybe they cannot help being gay any more than we can help being straight.

[onefromsomewhereelse]

God is judging; the popular verse ref this subject says that you are not to judge by a standard you will not apply to yourself.  He is both judgment and mercy.  God does not have a free will...He cannot sin, for one example.

The problem in this area is that most modern Christian churches are of Arminian persuasion, and not what is called Calvinistic persuasion.  This is too involved to discuss here, but briefly, the former believes in free will of man....that we decide our eternal position, and the latter believes that God decides it...we can't, because we are dead in sin, and spiritually dead people can't make a spiritual decision.  

If you believe the Bible is God- breathed, then you will view homosexuality as a sin.  Of course, it is no more a sin than screwing around, stealing, etc....the problem with homo sin is that it shows!   Most sins are internal, and others don't really know one is doing the sin.  If you don't think God is fair, then you can pick and choose any verses you want to ignore a delete them from your belief system, but that doesn't change anything, really.

Sorry for rambling.

[exothen]

The teachings of the Bible are very much against homosexuality as it is an unnatural behavior.

onefromsomewhereelse,

God does have a free will, but let's not get into it since that is not the topic of this thread. []

[kakkarot]

quote:Originally posted by onefromsomewhereelse

If you believe the Bible is God- breathed, then you will view homosexuality as a sin.

quote:Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator.

it doesn't say that homosexuality in all cases is a sinful act (it heavily infers it, but it does not outright state it), just that God gave them up to "unnatural relations" and their own "dishonourable passions".

however, a sin is an act against the will of God, so according to this passage these people sinned by turning away from God, not neccessarily by having sex with people of their own gender. but perhaps i'm wrong [|)]

(and sorry beth, but i really can't agree with your interpretation of that section)

~kakkarot

[onefromsomewhereelse]

It is implied that any sin is for all cases; otherwise, at least in the ten commandments the Lord would have said "in all cases", I believe.  Also, there would be no absolute standard that way.

God cannot sin; therefore, his will is not free, by  logic.

[exothen]

One thing to keep in mind with Romans 1 is that, yes, they started worshipping other gods and "exchanged the truth of God for a lie," but the sin of homosexuality was already in their hearts. Romans 1:26, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural."

The Bible is clear: homosexuality is sin; it is unnatural. There is no allegorical interpretation needed and it shouldn't be used at all. I find it interesting that when people don't agree with what the Bible says, they turn to some method of interpretation to give them something to agree with. And this, too, the Bible strictly warns against.

On to the argument. What the Bible does, as it so often does, is point out what is obvious, or what should be obvious. The natural teleology of the body makes it clear that males are meant to couple only with females - it is only a male and a female that can reproduce; that is what is natural. Homosexuality is a perversion of what is natural.

 

quote:God cannot sin; therefore, his will is not free, by logic.

God is who he is and can be nothing else. He cannot be what it is impossible for him to be, therefore, he is perfectly and absolutely free.

[xander]

these verses say nothing about homosexuality. The Judaic tradition was very much about the preservation of the mans seed and the only "correct" expelling of the seed was into a woman so it could become a child. Thus any sexual activity which was not straight on penis/vagina intercourse was sin to them.

It is also interesting the bible only says a tiny bit about male homosexuality but nothing about lesbianism. This was due to the fact that woman cannot produce seed and thus they were not concerned with womens sexuality the same way they were concerned with men.

ou cannot tell me that some biblical people like solomon, who had over 300 wives didn't occasionaly like to watch the lesbian love making taking place in the bedroom.

Also, the verses where paul speaks of male homosexuality it is regards to the Greeks pattern of the higher ranking male penetrating a lower ranking male. The issue was not penetration but the behavior of the higher class taking advantage of the lower class.

I am working on my Religous Studies degree and I do know what i'm talking about.

Xander

quote:Originally posted by exothen

One thing to keep in mind with Romans 1 is that, yes, they started worshipping other gods and "exchanged the truth of God for a lie," but the sin of homosexuality was already in their hearts. Romans 1:26, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural."

The Bible is clear: homosexuality is sin; it is unnatural. There is no allegorical interpretation needed and it shouldn't be used at all. I find it interesting that when people don't agree with what the Bible says, they turn to some method of interpretation to give them something to agree with. And this, too, the Bible strictly warns against.

On to the argument. What the Bible does, as it so often does, is point out what is obvious, or what should be obvious. The natural teleology of the body makes it clear that males are meant to couple only with females - it is only a male and a female that can reproduce; that is what is natural. Homosexuality is a perversion of what is natural.

 

quote:God cannot sin; therefore, his will is not free, by logic.

God is who he is and can be nothing else. He cannot be what it is impossible for him to be, therefore, he is perfectly and absolutely free.

[kakkarot]

unnatural does NOT neccessarily mean sin.

a sin is anything that goes against the will of God. evil is any act that is purposefully harmful to an nonconsenting other. those two definitions are not the same thing: literally speaking, something can be good and still against the will of God, and something could be evil and still inline with the will of God. the same goes for unnatural: it is NOT a synonym for sin.

<and besides: Thou shalt not murder is one of the ten commandments right? God HIMSELF killed ONE OF HIS OWN PEOPLE who touched the ark of the covenant. *zap*, dead, no chance at reconsiliation or mercy. God contradicted the law He laid down for men (and it is considered by most that to murder in any case is against the will of God, so God would have just contradicted Himself if that is true [|)]).>

~kakkarot

[xander]

quote:Originally posted by kakkarot

<and besides: Thou shalt not murder is one of the ten commandments right? God HIMSELF killed ONE OF HIS OWN PEOPLE who touched the ark of the covenant. *zap*, dead, no chance at reconsiliation or mercy.

In that context one must see YHWH as an energy, just like electricity. It was YHWH's holiness that killed the guy.

YHWH, Jehovah, whatever ya call him went through a long series of changes from the early days of Judaism. When he handed to commandments to moses he was still just a nation-state god like baal, or marduk. It wasnt untill the Assyrians conquered the jews that YHWH was elevated to position of being the only GOD and the GOD of all creation.

Most xians are in love with what they think the bible and their tradition says. They havent the slightest clue about the reality of it.

Xander

[exothen]

xander,

quote:Most xians are in love with what they think the bible and their tradition says. They havent the slightest clue about the reality of it.

And you know more about the Bible than most Christians...please.[V] (This place needs an emoticon where the eyes roll). We'll see just how much you "know."

quote:It is also interesting the bible only says a tiny bit about male homosexuality but nothing about lesbianism. This was due to the fact that woman cannot produce seed and thus they were not concerned with womens sexuality the same way they were concerned with men.

Did you not read the verse I posted? I'll post it again along with a little more of the context:

Romans 1:22-27, "22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."

Leviticus 18:22, "'22 You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Notice that verse 23 states, "lusts of their hearts." Lusting is a sin, so this is actually saying "the sinful desires of their hearts." Also, if lying with a man is an abomination, so is lying with a woman.

1 Corinthians 6:9, "9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,"

In the Greek, "effeminate" means "a male prostitue, a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man, a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness," and "homosexuals" means "one who lies with a male as with a female, a homosexual." So both in the homosexual relationship are addressed.

1 Timothy 1:9-10, "9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,"

Again, homosexuality is connected to "the ungodly, and sinners...the unholy and profane."

quote:ou cannot tell me that some biblical people like solomon, who had over 300 wives didn't occasionaly like to watch the lesbian love making taking place in the bedroom.

Yes, I can tell you. This is just an all-round bad argument. First, it reveals your own heart, namely, that you would like to watch lebsian love-making. Second, it is mere speculation. Third, Solomon was in violation of Deuteronomy 17:17a, "17 "He shall not multiply wives for himself." Polygamy only happened when the socitey was in rebellion against God and those who were poygamists, paid dearly for their sins. And Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

kakkrot,

It is clear that homosexuality is unnatural, even apart from the Bible. What the Bible does do is tell us of the Creator and that man was created by him. Since homosexuality is unnatural, it goes against creation and is therefore a "slap in the face" to the Creator. It is going against the natural purpose of the complimentary function of male/female sex. Homosexuality is a sin because it is rebellion against the Creator due to it being unnatural, or against nature.

[xander]

Originally posted by exothen
[br
And you know more about the Bible than most Christians...please. We'll see just how much you "know."

>I admit its been awhile since I read the bible, but right now i'm trudging through the Qur'an.

Did you not read the verse I posted? I'll post it again along with a little more of the context:

>Ah so you didnt post the whole thing last time?! that would be picking and choosing info to prove beleifs, rather than looking at all evidence and then create the beleifs.

1 Corinthians 6:9, "9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,"

>I dont recall thaty verse saying that, I'll have to get a bible to go head to head with you on verses and meanings.

In the Greek, "effeminate" means "a male prostitue, a

>are you sure thats the definition or is effeminate a QUALITY of a male prostitute. I know many effeminate men and they're not homosexuals nor prostitutes.

1 Timothy 1:9-10, "9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,"

>What version of the bible are you using? KJV or another?

Yes, I can tell you. This is just an all-round bad argument. First, it reveals your own heart, namely, that you would like to watch lebsian love-making.

>LOL! Theres lots of things I like to watch[}:)]

Second, it is mere speculation. Third, Solomon was in violation of Deuteronomy 17:17a, "17 "He shall not multiply wives for himself." Polygamy only happened when the socitey was in rebellion against God and those who were poygamists, paid dearly for their sins. And Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

>Yes but was this law made before or after Solomons reign?

It is clear that homosexuality is unnatural,

>actually many animals in nature take part in behavior that can be seen as homosexual. And would you please define natural?
When I look around I see many things that are unnatural...plastics, cars, synthetic chemicals, cola, electronics, etc. I can't go pluck a tv off a tree the way I can an apple so then does that make tv watching, car driving, etc UNnatural?[8D]

[kakkarot]

5 And David and all the house of Israel were making merry before the LORD with all their might, with songs and lyres and harps and tambourines and castanets and cymbals. 6 And when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. 7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there because he put forth his hand to the ark; and he died there beside the ark of God.
2 Samuel 6:5-7

as well,
19 And he slew some of the men of Beth-she'mesh, because they looked into the ark of the LORD; he slew seventy men of them, and the people mourned because the LORD had made a great slaughter among the people.
1 Samuel 6:19

God slew them, not His presence. His presence has killed others, but in those instances it was directly God.


EDIT: this is added:
the greek word used in 1 cor 6:9 for effeminate is also translated to an instrument of unnatural lust. it can also be used to denote: soft to the touch, delicate, softness, languor, indisposition, weakness, infirmity of body, though those definitions are not what is meant in that passage (i'd love to post the greek words as well, but i'd have to make an image to do that. maybe i will later and just edit it in)

the greek word used next (the one that exothen posted as homosexual) means: one who lies with a male, a sodomite. ... well, i guess i'm wrong then ^_^ , the bible is fairly explicit on homosexuality.

~kakkarot

[xander]

quote:Originally posted by kakkarot

5 And David and all the house of Israel were making merry before the LORD with all their might, with songs and lyres and harps and tambourines and castanets and cymbals. 6 And when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. 7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there because he put forth his hand to the ark; and he died there beside the ark of God.
2 Samuel 6:5-7

as well,
19 And he slew some of the men of Beth-she'mesh, because they looked into the ark of the LORD; he slew seventy men of them, and the people mourned because the LORD had made a great slaughter among the people.
1 Samuel 6:19

God slew them, not His presence. His presence has killed others, but in those instances it was directly God.

~kakkarot

Thus I really need to get a bible and reread it.[B)] Thanx for quoting the verse.[]

Xander

[kakkarot]

no problem. [] i've had my fair share of being corrected when it comes to the bible.

i also edited my above post (in case you didn't notice [|)]).

~kakkarot

[wisp]

I just want to throw some emotion in on this topic. Several years ago I met a young fellow who was gay. We spent long periods of time talking with each other. It was a mystical experience for me. I was mystified by his soft speak and understandings of so many things. The strange part about this,there was not one thing we didn't see eye to eye about. Now, I know it's easy to talk with someone who sees and thinks the same as you do, but this experience seemed to go beyond the details of topics.
It was as if we connected on another level, I think it was a spiritual level. I found out a few years later he had died of AIDS.
I will never forget him. He touched me in a way no one had ever did.

[xander]

AIDS is still somewhat of a death sentence, I would assume some with AIDS would become very contemplative on the deeper mysteries of life in a very short time. I think a lot of the gender/sexual anomalies in society bear testimony that we are souls in physical bodies. I can put on a robe but it doesnt mean i'm a monk, when it gets tattered I slip it off and put on something different. All the while my essence remains the same to a certain degree.

I would also like to point out that sexual/gender anomalies are a lot more common than people realize.

Xander

quote:Originally posted by wisp

I just want to throw some emotion in on this topic. Several years ago I met a young fellow who was gay. We spent long periods of time talking with each other. It was a mystical experience for me. I was mystified by his soft speak and understandings of so many things. The strange part about this,there was not one thing we didn't see eye to eye about. Now, I know it's easy to talk with someone who sees and thinks the same as you do, but this experience seemed to go beyond the details of topics.
It was as if we connected on another level, I think it was a spiritual level. I found out a few years later he had died of AIDS.
I will never forget him. He touched me in a way no one had ever did.

[doesitmatter]

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

[xander]

quote:Originally posted by doesitmatter

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

What does the Qur'an say about it?

Xander

[Gandalf]

There is no point in trying to argue that the bible is not clear about homosexuality.. it is.. it doesnt like it. The men who wrote it didnt like it and they want everyone else to know it.

It is just one of those nasty features of Christianity that most *normal* reasonable Christians have disgarded, but which the hard-core will always believe and use it to continue their nasty homophobic rhetoric. There is little use in trying to convince them otherwise.

Quite simply, its not a problem if you just ignore it.

I just wish that some of these bible thumpers would invest some of their feverish bible study time into actually researching into the men who actually wrote and added to these sections of the bible and what their agendas were.

Of course the church has a wonderful answer to anything you might come up with, namely that these writers were were 'inspired' by god..

A beautiful argument.. its like the one about how fossils have been placed in the ground to 'test one's faith'.

These arguments are beautiful as they are impossible to refute, but it is their irefutible aspect that comprimises their very validity, and exposes their falsehood.

Douglas

PS
I will be burning according to your doctrines....ooooooooooo... what a lovely big trident you have there Lucifer!

[exothen]

Gandalf,

quote:It is just one of those nasty features of Christianity that most *normal* reasonable Christians have disgarded, but which the hard-core will always believe and use it to continue their nasty homophobic rhetoric.

Do you really think someone is reasonable when they abandon truth just to follow popular consensus? As for "homophobic," perhaps you should look the word up in a dictionary. It is one of the most misused words in debates on homosexuality and is rather a straw man and ad hominem argument.

Perhaps you missed my post on how homosexuality is unnatural, apart from what the Bible says; the Bible just points out the obvious. So those who are "reasonable" and have disregarded this teaching, are not so reasonable after all.

quote:I just wish that some of these bible thumpers would invest some of their feverish bible study time into actually researching into the men who actually wrote and added to these sections of the bible and what their agendas were.

And of course you have, right? [xx(] Straw man.

quote:A beautiful argument.. its like the one about how fossils have been placed in the ground to 'test one's faith'.

Hmmm...straw man. I have never heard that in my entire life.

Perhaps you should actually post some arguments instead of making up a bunch.

Do you actually know anything about Christianity?

[Gandalf]

To Exothen_ Chief bible Thumper:

I couldnt care less about 'bible arguments' as they have no validity as far as I am concerned.

More importantly, lets talk about 'unnatural'. What is that?
What is the definition of 'unnatural'.
Something which doesnt nececerelly fulfil its biological function?

Some animals exibit 'gayness' on occasion. Are they 'wrong'?

Where is your evidence that this is 'wrong'?  What do you mean by wrong?

Are 'Gay genes' are a 'biological defect' or not? from a biological point of view I would say they are: BUT only on an individual basis. However biologists hold the view that nature has made allowances for this 'defect' to occur so that if there are gender imbalances in the population same sex relationships can relieve some of the pressure.

In this way, although it might be a biological defect on an individual level, on a wider level it is fulfils a proper biological function after all. Whether or not there are *actually* any gender imbalences in the population at any given time is not relevent. The point is, this is why the 'defect' is there. so on a wider society level it is not a defect at all. Rather it is essential.

Therfor, if you happen to be born with this orientation then there is nothing wrong with following it. There is no 'danger to society' as some alarmists have slavered, since the proportion of Gay people in any given society will alaways be in the minority.

The 'moral' objections in the bible are simply based on prejudice and ignorance of anyone who is different... nothing new there.

So please Exothen, dont try to validify your bible arguments by saying that they are backed up by biological ones as you wont find any support for this amongst biologists (except fundi-christian ones of course).

Yes the church is out of touch with modern society. No the people have not turned away from the truth. They have instead decided to educate themselves.
The church does not in fact have a monopoly on the Truth, only on its on special brand called 'the truth', inverted commas intended, which is what you represent.

Douglas