Who Wrote the Bible (Tanakh) .

[Beth]

Shaman,

Hey there!

quote:Clearly there were originally two texts that were later on put together.

Not necessarily...

quote:I am asking how the jewish scholars explain the occurence of each story as two stories. What explanation is there behind having everything repeated twice, once with E (lohim) and once with Y(hwh) - taking care to notice that the stories are not always consistent with each other

Jewish midrash offers several different speculations as to "why" this is the case.  One is that two different things are being created. In Jewish tradition, however, all speculations are valid.  Why do YOU think this is the case?  That may be perhaps the best place to start...[]  Let me know what you come up with!

Peace,
Beth

[shaman]

My speculation is that there is indeed two different sources of the original text that were sewed together. Obviously one from Judah and one from Israel. Another possibility that I see is that originally Abraham came all the way from nowdays Irak (city of Ur). I see him as the first person who actually wrote a pretty large part of the first book with his background from Summer. For example the flood story is well known in the  text from Summer in the Epic of Gilgamesh. They dissagre with the time it happened, but they are basically recording a same natural phenomenon that happened long ago. For me Abraham comes with one tradition and one source of text. The tadition of circumcision and other acts of cutting small body parts - especially in the genital area - was a common practice in ancient socities.  Then he went to Egypt for a short while. Curiously it is not mentioned that his wife got pregnant when she actually staid with the Pharaoh, as it appeared that she was not "fertile" (though let's assume that she did and that she actually had a child there because of that). Though at that time already I see a clear connection between Abraham and ancient Egypt. This then continue with Joseph tossed by his brothers in a well and then sold as a slave to Potiphar. Eventually he became a great man in Egypt (Zaphnat Panea). Then his all family (brothers, father, ...) arrived there and stay there (become eventually slaves) for 400 years. Then comes Moses who supposedly his name means in hebrew "taken-found out of the water"... there is no way I see any such translation of "Moshe". Anyhow it seems to me that Moses was really the son of Pharaoh and that he decided on his very own to come to the help of the hebrews in slavery in Egypt. This is how and why he would be the second source of the text. He would make a story of himself as being found in the water and being a hebrew, otherwise the hebrew would never believe him and would never follow him. So he then brings to the Hebrews his philosophy and religion. He is the one who also is told by God Himself that Elohim is Yhyh (though here there is a speculation that Yhwh also might just means "the one who causes to be", or 'creator' if you prefer in single language). Moses is the one who tries to bring the laws (10 commendments) and it might be pretty well that he wrote them himself. It is not also completely sure that those in Egypt are all of them. The ones in Egypt might have been only a fraction of the ancestors of Abraham-Isaak-Jacob, the rest being in Kenaan with the ancient tradition. Moses has to accomodate what is giving to the Hebrews so that it will fit in the tradition of Abraham.

All that to say that I see two sources: one is more summerian like (Abraham) and one is more Egyptian like (Moses-Moshe). Shamash/Shemesh is the Sun god in some old religions in the middle East, obvioulsy the hebrew language has kept some traces and has been influenced by these religions. And I believe that so is the bible.

There are many other things that really don't fit. Why in the first place when God (E) created the skies and the earth, the earth is already a mess (tohu-bohu)? Why is it said the first day, when there was not even a difference between day and night. There is clear evidence that the world has been created in 15 billions years, with the earth sun system being created only when the universe was already 10 billions years (so the sun-earth system is only 5 billions years), etc... Why in some place people are killed for small things such adultery (and it is always the women who is lapidated, not the men! - eventhough they are usually the responsible), and in other places (Jonah) people are not killed because it is said that God likes all creatures, eventhough these people had "sinned"?

To me it is very clear that the prophets (see e.g. Daniel) are having lucid dreams, OBE, NDE, etc.. and are in contact with other "entities" (or maybe just the subconscious?)....

Now you said that I have to give an interpretation of what is there written, that is exactly the thing, it is that interpretation is given only A POSTERIORI and not A PRIORI, so that it is up to the clever mind to make sens out of the text, even if the text does not make sens. And the fact is that a clever mind can always make sens out of ANY text. See for example the famous story (at least in the newspapers) about the Bible code book. Mathematicians have shown that the probability is such that one can do exactly the same with any text, and you can make any text say anything you want... And again this is because it is a posteriori, not a priori.

The only things that I really agree is that all the people in the Bible who are depicted as having spoken with God or some Angels, is that these people might have had NDE, OBE or other experiences similar to that. NDErs all pretend of the feeling of peace and of being "ONE" with the "Light" and "ONE" with the world itself, from there "Y is our Lord, Y is ONE".

Happy New year to you Beth.

[shaman]

And by the way, Beth, would that mean that God created two kinds of Men? and two kinds of women? (two creations..? as you mentioned). That would explain who are the "son of God" (benei Elohim) and the "son of man "benei Adam"? Since obviously when Abel and Kain were created no word is said about where their wives came from... they must have been created somewhere before too? Then who exaclty would be "bnei El" and who would be "bnei Adam"... ?

[Beth]

shaman:

Hey there!

You wrote:

quote:Now you said that I have to give an interpretation of what is there written, that is exactly the thing, it is that interpretation is given only A POSTERIORI and not A PRIORI, so that it is up to the clever mind to make sens out of the text, even if the text does not make sens.

This strikes at the very heart of much of the debate that occurs within this religious tradition.  WAS IT A PRIORI--or was it ALWAYS A POSTERIORI???  If it is indeed A PRIORI then all of our answers are to be found in the divine realm and not the human, but, if indeed the scriptures are A POSTERIORI then the writings of men will answer the questions.  

You ask A LOT of different questions!  Which is NOT bad at all--it is just way more than I can address here.  If you are really interested (and you certainly seem to be) then I suggest you find some books to read that are trying to sort all of this out.  Which books?  For you?--that I cannot say. You have already gotten a GREAT start!!  You can certainly check the bibliographies that I have posted so far, but there are a great many other books as well.  On these topics, Jewish scholarship is making a lot more head way in my opinion, so check with Jewish publishers and scholarship.  My method of choosing the right book for me?  I peruse my options and pick the one(s) that "stand out the most."  I try to let God help me to know where to go for my answers.

On these threads, we can certainly discuss many different topics, but you have hit on some very fundamental topics that there is no clear answer for.  It is all speculation--and I only have my opinions based upon my own research.  I myself have concentrated on the mystical aspects of scripture and not straight literary criticism. If indeed Israel and Judah were actual tribes, then perhaps you are correct. But--if Israel and Judah  represent two different aspects of our existence, e.g. divine image and human form, respectively (hence also the 2 different creation stories,) then there may not have necessarily been two actual tribes that wrote the scripture.  Where am I getting this?  In Hebrew, Judah means "Praise of God" and Israel means "one who sees God." Perhaps the different styles are reflective of these different aspects/perspectives? There are no doubt different styles of writing, as well as influences from cultures all over the ANE (Ancient Near East.) These scriptures were written, re-written, copied and re-copied countless times through the centuries.  As to "who actually wrote the scriptures" -- speculations are all we will ever have in my opinion--for we are too far removed to know anything "for sure."  

But all of your questions are certainly valid and thought provoking! I have long pondered these same things too, so I am in the process of trying to answer these questions (plus many more) for myself!!  I have shared some of what I have found in the thread "Use of Allegory and Metaphor in the Bible" thread.  This may or may not interest you, but this realm of thought is really all I have to contribute at this time.

May God be with us all in our search!

Peace,
Beth  

p.s. I agree about the OBE, NDE, LD theory.  I have thought that for many years now!

[shaman]

I did not put an interogation mark, as this is not a question I am asking you directly and explicitly, but it is the title of a book.

I would just discuss here (or look for people to discuss with me..) the very first thing that appears in that book as other things that appear in the Old Testement (Tanakh).

So let's start with the first part, say just Genesis (Bereshit in Torah, first book of the Bible).

The creation is written twice. We have a full story of the creation that is repeated twice with some differences. And this apparent repetition (everything twice) appears in many places in the Bible. These two texts can be easily separated, and the main difference that appears is that in one God is refered to as "Elohim" (from El=God) and in the other God is refered to as "Yhwh". Clearly there were originally two texts that were later on put together. Two texts the same ways that there were two kindoms: Israel and Judah. There are many additions to this theory, so that all in all there are up to 5 sources (and not only two) and also a person who assemble the whole things together. The main people suspected to have been involved in the "puting" it together are the "prophets" (neviim), or maybe just one of them..?

Anyhow, I am asking how the jewish scholars explain the occurence of each story as two stories. What explanation is there behind having everything repeated twice, once with E (lohim) and once with Y(hwh) - taking care to notice that the stories are not always consistent with each other.

I have more questions,  but for another time..