The Astral Pulse

I got to reading the common ground thread about Muslims, and I have to say I am totally confused about women's place in Islam. 

I read a few quotes in there that basically say that women were created equal to men, but then why are men guardians over women?  Could guardian and protector simply mean the literal meanings of that men are supposed to protect the women, but not dominate over them?  Why in Islam, do women enjoy far fewer freedoms than men? (examples, they can not walk in public alone without a male family member... but men are allowed to walk without a female family member, men do not have to cover their bodies up like a women, men can marry 4 wives (does that mean women can marry 4 husbands too?) Men are promised virgins in heaven... do women get virgin males in heaven?)  This does not sound like the 'equality' that was quoted from the Quran....  More examples... why is a women who was raped scorned as being 'unpure' even though she is the victim? Where are her male protectors then?  Why is the burden of proof ALWAYS on the women to prove rape, and then of course the male witnesses will not tell the truth, and then the women is punished for making it up? What women would want to admit that she had been violated then?  Why do women have to worship in a separate area behind men in mosques?

Again I say, could the term 'guardian' and 'protector' have been taken way too far, to mean domination over and ownership of, women.... and instead should have just meant literally, that they should protect their women?  If men and women are supposed to be equals, why do men have so much more freedom and promised rewards than women through Islam? 

You might have guessed... I am a woman.  And I enjoy being equal to men. I enjoy being able to walk around freely without having to have a male family member accompany me, or to have to cover all of myself up in hot weather (though I do not dress promiscuously either), I enjoy and revel in my beliefs (also of ONE true God) but that I will be an equal here AND after death.  I am not property, I am not less of a person than men, I can achieve everything that men can (and I am in a male dominated career - Navy, I am a female submariner), I dont have to endure being locked up in a house with windows painted over so people can not see a woman inside... I dont have to endure being beaten by a husband, or forced to submit to anything I dont want to do...

The treatment of women in other societies really hits a sore spot for me.  If I was in a society where I was opressed to that extreme, I don't think I would have the will to live, if I could not escape it. which brings me to my last question... why is the suecide rate of women in highly opressed societies, much higher than in those where women are treated equal??

God's message to all the Universe:

"We apologize for the inconvenience."

I watched a little bit of a special on TV last night about the Koran. The women were saying that the Koran honors women and praises them but yet they are oppressed by the men, religion, and government. IMO this is wrong and is total authoritarianism......or would total authoritarianism equal totalitarianism? hmmm

Organised religions are ways to keep order and have control over people. In the olden days, religious institutions had more authority than the government - sometimes they were one and the same.

I think Islam is the most pronounced and typical example of this. It systematically and matter-of-factly places men as superior to women.  People are so brainwashed and conditioned that they involuntarily buy into this system - completely unaware that they are being manipulated.  So much so that the women would tell you they have chosen to cover themselves and that they have all the freedom they want - which is exactly what the 'system' has consciously or subconsciously taught them to say.  (a bit like The Stepford Wives)

I know muslim women including new converts who have told me this.  However much I want to change them, I know I can't. Change comes from within - so when they are ready, in this life or the next, they will claim back their freedom and human rights.  I suppose we all have to go through phases...

I agree that organized religion is just a mechanism to control people. I stay away from people who are prone to giving advice without being asked for it- a.k.a. preaching their religion to people who do not want to hear it. Reminds me of a zen sarcasm quote: "Generally speaking, if your lips are moving, you aren't learning anything."

Quote from: Venus_Goddess_of_Love on August 06, 2008, 19:34:18
I suppose we all have to go through phases...

Very quantum-physics. The 'phases,' as I understand, create different interference patterns in our energy fields, giving us a perception of the resonance spectrum- which in turn gives us a better idea of who we are.

Hi Synergy,

I will try to answer your questions. But please bear in mind that I am not an expert in islam or islamic culture so I might be wrong.

1. Why woman cannot walk alone in public, but has to be accompanied by a male family member.
For me, this is more a question of a culture, because I think that it exists also in other cultures than in islamic countries, ie. in India. Why do I think that it is more a question of a culture? Because in India you have two main religions, hinduism which is prevalent and islam. BUT, whatever the religion, the social rules are similar, it is the family who finds husbands/wives to their children, women cannot wear skirts, I would say that in India rules are even stricter, for example in north african countries, as I know, a man can touch his wife in public, he can hold her hand, and so on, but they cannot kiss. In India it is impossible, a man cannot touch even his wife in public... But in India women do not have to cover their arms, and belly can be seen. Once I was in India with a friend of mine and one day we put on a skirt, and I can tell you, we were followed by a man for almost three hours. So it is a question of culture.

But in general, this rule serves to protect a woman, I would say. Maybe it also depends on a culture. I come from a country where people are very reserved, and men in my country are desperate because they would like so much to learn to flirt with a woman but they do not know how... most of them would not talk to a woman they do not know on the street and so on. Of course there are exceptions, but in general, it is like that. But when I moved to Paris I saw that it is much different, and as there are many people from arabic, Indian, african countries, I could see the difference, because they, in general, do not have any problem with communication with a woman. I would say that it is because in their countries the relations in a family are much warmer than in my country, or at least if I compare it with my family and my friends families. I have a friend (woman) who is from Maroc, she is very beautiful and lots of men ask her for her phone number on the street; I told her, it is incredible, how many men ask you to go on a date with them. She told me, this is nothing, you should have seen in Maroc, it is much worse, when you go on a street, unless you go with a man, men stop you on the street all the time...

Also, I was told, by friends who spend a lot of on time in India or Arabic countries, that, for example, it is dangerous sometimes for a woman only to make friends with a man, in case he falls in love with her and she does not want to marry him, he can become very fanatic after, and even pay money to someone to rape her, just to take revenge on her because she did not want him. Also men from these countries who live in Europe told me this.

So I think now you understand better. I do not know whether Islam (Koran or sunna) impose this rule, but if so, It must be because God knows the hot blodded nature of people there, although I am aware that the hot blooded nature is a cliche to a certain extent, still, there is a lot of truth in it. Because I come from a "cold blooded" country:)

2. This is also a reply why a women has to cover her body,if you see a women covered like that and compare it with a woman wearing normal clothes, which one is more sexy? Which one would flirt with if you were a man? Although many muslim women cheat, they cover their head and chest, but in such a way that they are still very beautiful and sexy...:) As regards the way some women cover up their bodies, really from head to toe that you see only their eyes, this is, I was told be muslim men, exagerated, and Islam does not   have such a rule, so it is again a culture thing.

In the beginning, there was no such rule, but then the Prophet Mohammed started to cover head of his wives, because as he was a very important person who got official and an official visits all the time, he wanted to protect his wives from stares and remarks from men who came to see him. Later on, this rule was extended to all muslim women.

3. The question of virgins in heavens... I do not think that there will be any sex life in heaven, as the paradise is, as Koran says, unimaginable for us, and it is to no avail to try to understand what it is like. But, I guess he wanted to motivate people  to behave according to the precepts of islam, and beautiful eternal sex with a virgin is a good motivation, I would say. Personally, I like sex, but I do not give so much importance to it as men usually do, I guess I am not the only woman like that, so I guess Prophet used the sex promise only to men. Also, I am not sure, that in Prophets time, anyone would care about woman' s sexual pleasure, it is quite a recent thing, in fact. Did you know that in prophet' s time a woman had NO VALUE? It was normal to kill a newborn girl, because everyone wanted to have boys. Islam in fact improved a status of a woman, by giving her right to inherit I guess one third of the property of her husband, and also  because he said that sex outside marriage is a sin. Because at that time, it was normal to sleep with a woman without marriage, man did not need to marry a woman in order to get the right to sleep with her. And of course he has forbidden to kill newborn girls.

4.To hide a woman in a house, and paint the windows so that no one can see her through a window? Islam does not say that. On the other hand, I always put the curtains, because, in my room, where I am always reading something at my desk by the window, because I hate people going by staring at me:)

5. Four wives for a man: Prophet suggests that the best is to have only one wife, but if a man is capable to marry more of them, he can, but there is one condition, he must give them the same amount of attention, material things, and so on. If one woman has a house, he has to buy a house to all of them, there must be 100% equality. It is quite a challenge... Also, Mohammed made wars, and in wars a lot of men died, so logically there were less men than women, and if it was not possible for a man to marry more women, all these widows would have to live alone. Another condition to polygamy is: a man can marry another woman, BUT his first wife must agree with it. Unfortunately, due to a high level of corruption in arabic countries, if a man pays some money to an administrative officer, second marriage is possible even without the assent of his first wife.

Anyway, at that time it was normal to marry more wives, and some men had even 20 wives or more. Prophet limited this number to 4 while stating that is is best to marry only one woman.

6. As regards the rape, I do not know what to think about it. You need 4 man witness, and the burden is on a woman to prove that she was violated; BUT if the burden was not on her, she might very easily accuse any men that he raped her and it would be up to him to prove that it' s not true. And the penalty is I guess a lapidation. SO like this a lot of innocent men might be lapidated. It is better to let live a guilty man that to kill an innocent man, isn' t it?The very sad thing is, that in many countries, not only in islamic countries, but in India, as I know, as well, if a woman is raped, it is a shame for all family, ane very often, the pressure of people around her is so high that finally she commits a suicide. But, in my country, (I come from central Europe) it is not easy for a woman neither, when she is raped and goes to the police, very often policemen treat her like a prostitute, without any compassion, and so on. Rape is a source of a great shame for a women and most of them hide the fact that they were raped. But I am sure, if women cover up their bodies and do not walk alone in the streets, there will be much less of rape cases. Unfortunately, very often, it is family members who rape them, in most of the cases, not only inislamic countries but everywhere.

7. In mosques women pray in a separate area in order to concentrate well on the prayers, because they might be distracted by sexual attraction to someone.

8. You live in a different world so of course it is difficult for you to accept all of this. But if you were born in a NORMAL islamic society, let' s not talk about extremes, maybe it wouldnot be such a big burden. As I was told, yes, a muslim women is dominated by a man, but she has a very good life, because their man take a very good care of them, and their are happy. And no, in muslim countries women should NOT be beaten by their husbands. There is one sourate in the Koran that talks about that, if a woman does not obey a man (for example, has found a lover, and so on), a man can do three things: talk with her about what she' s doing wrong, "separate their bedrooms" and, yes, beat her, but the the arab word used for that means something like "strike her very lightly" so that she realises she' s doing sth wrong, so the Koran does not give right to a man to beat up her wife. Unfortunately, it happens...all around the world. If someone says that a man can beat a women, he is exagerating and acting againts what the Coran teaches.

As far as I know, the New Testament says like men have to obey church, and women have to obey their husbands. They must really obey them but men must treat them well, it is just like islam, only in our western societies we have changed this rule, and a woman can dominate a man.
Do you know, in which European country women are most emancipated? In Germany. And a German  female friend of mine told me that now German women complain that German men are kind of... feminized, which is not sexy at all, she complained:)

I hope I gave you satisfactory answers to your questions... But as you can see it is only my point of view.

I just talked with a muslim friend and I was wrong with the rape thing. In fact the 4 witness rule does not apply to the case of a raped woman. It is like this: IF a man sees her wife have sex with another man, he needs 4 witnesses to prove it, if he wants her to be punished. The same goes for a woman that see her husband having sex with another woman...

Hi Anelie

Thanks for taking the time to explain Islam.  I must say you sound quite supportive of Islam and the Prophet, and your note above seems to justify the oppression of women in muslim and Indian cultures.

Personally, it doesn't matter how many cutlures or religions share the same values, or who issued the orders, or what an ancient holy book says, it is unfair, unacceptable, inhuman and unethical to treat anyone less than others on the basis of gender (or sexual orientation or race).

To quote from your note:
"yes, a muslim women is dominated by a man, but she has a very good life, because their man take a very good care of them, and their are happy."

Looking after someone does not reserve the right to dominate the person. And if anyone believes that happiness is being taken care of by someone who dominates them, then the person needs to do some growing up.

Again thanks for your post, but I really doubt you can convince anyone on this forum that Islam is a fair and simple religion as you painted it above.  Certainly not me.

Good luck with whatever you decide to follow.  We all have free will.

Venus

Quote from: Venus_Goddess_of_Love on September 06, 2008, 19:45:25
Hi Anelie

Thanks for taking the time to explain Islam.  I must say you sound quite supportive of Islam and the Prophet, and your note above seems to justify the oppression of women in muslim and Indian cultures.

Personally, it doesn't matter how many cutlures or religions share the same values, or who issued the orders, or what an ancient holy book says, it is unfair, unacceptable, inhuman and unethical to treat anyone less than others on the basis of gender (or sexual orientation or race).

To quote from your note:
"yes, a muslim women is dominated by a man, but she has a very good life, because their man take a very good care of them, and their are happy."

Looking after someone does not reserve the right to dominate the person. And if anyone believes that happiness is being taken care of by someone who dominates them, then the person needs to do some growing up.

Again thanks for your post, but I really doubt you can convince anyone on this forum that Islam is a fair and simple religion as you painted it above.  Certainly not me.

Good luck with whatever you decide to follow.  We all have free will.

Venus

The taking care of the women is dominating them. This isnt a matter of treating "less" anyone. The reality is, there are people in authority and those who are under that authority. The one who is charged with authority in the family is the man. The very fact he takes care of the woman necesitates that he has authority over her. She is no "less" a person.

"the man is not like the woman." this is a reality accepted by common sense, sociology, religion, and biology. Men and women are different, therefore if they were to be treated the same legally, would be unjust. That is why the woman is required to wear the hijab(veil) and the man is not. That is why the woman is recommended to play a more homely role, and the man is not. That is why the man is required to provide for his wife, whereas the opposite is not (required.)

Quote"the man is not like the woman." this is a reality accepted by common sense, sociology, religion, and biology.

The only difference is physical attributes and I think it is very very stubborn and immature not to accept social change. If you've ever studied sociology then you would be familiar with social stratification and how it is very difficult for someone who is born into an oppressed community or family such as this to make it up the ladder. Thinking like this will only hinder people's abilities to live a better life and for true equality. This is classic authoritarianism that these women are forced and tricked into living in! Not good for society.

venus goddess: yes, I am supportive of Islam. But I am not writing to convince someone
that Islam is the best way. Although I really like Islam. I don' t need others to share my point of view, but I like to discuss. I know that this forum is not islam oriented but the question was asked and I guess all replies are permitted, not only antiislamic ones:)

As regards the domination of women by men, do you know why I have nothing against women ( or lets say me) being dominated by men (my husband)? Because in my family it is my mother who dominates my father, so I know what it is like.

I am a very independent person, I have spent many years abroad, alone, far away from home, not depending on anyone, earning my own money, renting a flat, having relationships, I could do what I wanted and I was happy like that. But the feeling that I have now, while being "dominated" by my husband, is uncomparable and I would not change it, so I talk from personal experience.  Yes it is him who dominates, but at the same time he tries to do his best to fulfill my wishes etc  and we have a very nice relationship. I would not go back... Maybe it is difficult to understand for someone who hasn't experienced it. But of course it is a very personal thing, if islamic way of doing things suits me it does not mean that everyone must like it. It also mean that people are different, and not only in physical attributes:)

Equality or domination? Of course every relationship is based on a compromise and mutual understanding of each other. You must take into consideration each other' s feelings and always try not to hurt your partner. And personally, to give authority to a woman over her husband, it sounds strange to me.

Even in my family, where the roles of my parents are to a certain extent reversed, I act differently when I talk with my mum or with my dad. There is a difference, and I guess in every family it is like that. As if with my mum I can talk in a more relaxed way, but to my dad I would not say the same thing, because I am a little bit "afraid" of him, I don't know how to describe it. Why? Because I feel that it is HIM who in reality has the authority...

I feel the difference even without thinking about Islam...

Colden: how can you say that the only difference is physical attributes? Although I live in a society where everyone has the same rights and obligations, I take it a FACT that men and women are different, and not only in physical attributes. Of course, it might be because men and women have different roles in society and a girl is taught to behave like a girl and vice versa, we impose on them their social role.

I believe in equality.... male and female aspects of the universe are in harmony... (ie: one side of the yin yang is not larger than the other!)  This is not a pie chart! lol 

If women are required to cover their heads in Islam.... I believe men should have to as well! I bet if men in Islam had to wear the hijab for even ONE day, they would abolish the rule altogether because of how uncomfortable and restricting it is!

If men can marry 4 wives, then women should be able to marry 4 husbands if they choose! Since women are supposed to be allowed to both own their own property and hold a career in Islam, then as long as they can pay for the 4 husbands (the  same as the husband has to pay for the 4 wives) then it should be allowed.

Men and women should have equal say in the relationship and family decisions

Men and women should share equally the household work (especially if both people are working outside the home) And either party should be able to be the career one or the home one (ie: the man could stay home and care for the children)

If men can walk in public without worry of being attacked by women, it should be the same for women.... that just goes to show that MEN are the ones who have no self control - but they blame the women for their compulsion to attack them! 


The rules in Islam were brought into effect in a time when women were worthless... and even though the rules gave women a bit more freedom than they had... the rules that were imposed were still indicative of times - if Muhammed had delcared that women all of a sudden had full freedom same as the men, then he would have been laughed at by the men of the times.  They need to wake up in the 21st century already!

The only differences between men and women as far as the universe is concerned is that they are polar opposites. The Chokmah and Binah forces. The universe has to be polar to have balance and we see these forces in everything including our astral bodies and astral experiences.

Freedom is a state of mind, not a statute or law. Freedom is choice. And choices are what we must make, all the time. If we spend all our time and energy worrying about what everyone else is doing and trying to control them to do what we think is right, then we are cheating ourselves out of valuable life lessons. Therefore, we must choose our own values and make our own choices accordingly, and let others do the same.

Just so much talk and explaining "in theory and according to the sunnah and the koran" and bla bla. In real life Islam is a religion of suppression and women have virtually NO real rights. Please see the following video...................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iOrrNY4Q-c&feature=related

and cry.............


and if you are interested watch the rest.................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCpXmfmLuzc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi1bDms5OfM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d-A8au4cyI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owCE8FYgASU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoPUNL7ts6E&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1teDaaKlxU&feature=related

Women and Islam, Men and Islam, Children and Islam......to me it seems all to be the same. Lets instead talk about LIFE and ISLAM, ................what is LIFE like in an Islamic country.

I am fully aware that most Muslims abhor the unjust deeds done in the name of Islam. They defend their religion with a gusto. In the process they inevitably bring up the argument that crimes are also committed in the name of Christianity.........this is their main line of justification. The problem is, that while it is true that crimes have been committed in the name of Christianity, i.e. witch hunts, Crusades, and the inquisition etc, it is a thing of the past. IT does not happen anymore, but ceased somewhere in the 1600s, when the west slowly grew and became CIVILIZED.

As Christianity developed and matured, and as it allowed its followers freedom of thought and expression, many left the faith and created what is now the western world. A system that is at least to some degree free. It has its faults and its grotesque "sideshows" but generally speaking.................. it is a free world. You Muslims women who post here for the most parts LIVE in the west, one might ask WHY. If you love Islam so much and if you are so eager to live the Muslim dream, why not immigrate to a Muslim state. It is obvious isn't it...............because in a Muslim state you will become oppressed by SHARIA, because Islam  did not evolve, and because it is totalitarian in nature. It is a political system, manufactured to control and oppress a populace, which it does very well. In Islamic countries, men are given power over women, and Mullahs and Immams, are given the power over ordinary people. That is a lot of power to be given to man.

It is so easy to defend the Principle of Islam, yet most of you who do so have no indebth understanding of your own Religion.  Tell me Anelie....have you read the Koran in its entirety, how about the Sunnah. Have you studied the theories and Hadith interpretations by which you are expected to live, such as Bukhari and Muslim etc. Do you have an up to date understanding of the various Fathwas issued to date...........I would guess no. Maybe I am wrong..then tell me.

So if you have read the above and are up to date on your own religion and what it actually teaches lets talk about that. If not maybe you should. Maybe you should study your own religion and what it actually claims as the truth, before you defend it. As of now you tend to defend something you have only a perifial knowledge about, a glorified personal interpretation of what you "would like" Islam to be.

It is not a realistic description of what Islam IS.

Regards Mustardseed

Sad stuff:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,418025,00.html

"A 17-year-old Pakistani girl forced to marry a 45-year-old when she was only nine was reportedly killed by her parents, according to the Weekend Australian.

The murder has intensified despair among human rights workers in Pakistan over a recent spate of "honor killings," in which two women and three teenage school girls were buried alive in Baluchistan Province because they wanted to marry the men of their choice.

Saira Nusrat Bibi was successfully fighting a legal battle to have her marriage annulled. As she left court in the Punjabi city of Sahiwal, she was surrounded by a group of men reportedly sent by her parents, and shot in front of police, The Australian reported.

The Baluchistan case was worsened by an attempt by a member of the country's national parliament, Senator Israr Ullah Zehri, to defend it, telling colleagues that "these are centuries-old traditions and I will continue to defend them," The Australian reports."

This is sickening - hanging a 17 year old woman because she was abused and raped by a government official.  These people have no compassion for human life, and absolutely no logical or rational thinking whatsoever.  How can anyone defend a religion such as this?  Anelie, how would you feel if you or your daughter were in that position?

That makes me soooooo deeply mad inside.  To execute a young girl because she was a victim! 

I wonder what happened to the government official!?  Probably nothing...

you know what makes me laugh?

how ignorant people like you on this forum are. you know nothing about Islam. you know nothing of the differences between Islam and culture. you people are the truly the most ignorant people on the planet.

honor killings has nothing to do with Islam, whatsoever. t he very fact im mentioning this makes me feel like a crapbag, because i have to stoop down to your level of stupidity for a  brief moment.

you actually think, for some reason, that the states in the Muslim world that are supported by America and have been waging a constant war against Shariah, have anything to do with Shariah! Wow! You know a lot!!

If there was an actual Muslim state, free from the yokage of secular tyranny and American dominance, I would go there and I wouldnt hesitate!

as for you mustardseed, youre just an arrogant dweeb that gets delight out of expressing your conjectural opinions and crap.



go ahead, go worship freedom and your man-made nonsense!

Insults aren't going to solve anything.

you know what makes me laugh?

You are not laughing Usama you are angry and upset, and aggressive.

how ignorant people like you on this forum are.

We are not ignorant Usama, for the most part we are well educated, knowledgeable, and experienced. Many have educations probably surpassing yours, and a fair lot of us have experienced more facets of life than you.

you know nothing about Islam.

Well here I admit that I am not sure that the majority on the list knows about Islam. I can assure you that I KNOW. Though you naturally do not believe it I have lived a major part of my life in Islamic countries, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan Pakistan and Malaysia. I have studied The Koran and the Sunnah as well as major parts of the Hadiths under the guidance of Islamic scholars. I have a in debth understanding of LIFE in an Islamic country. I KNOW about Islam.

you know nothing of the differences between Islam and culture. you people are the truly the most ignorant people on the planet.

Well Usama that is an allegation, I realise that there is a difference, but my argument is not with culture my argument is with ISLAM. As far as being the most ignorant people on the planet................well..........ummmm.....whatever  :-D

honor killings has nothing to do with Islam, whatsoever. t he very fact im mentioning this makes me feel like a crapbag, because i have to stoop down to your level of stupidity for a  brief moment.

Dont feel like a crapbag Usama. No reason  :roll:. Honor killings in itself may have nothing to do with Islam according to the doctrine of Zina, it should be punishable for both sexes, but the fact remains that under ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE it is accepted as a necessary evil and very rarely is a man convicted for this. Thats what the problem is. Islam fails to protect the innocent

you actually think, for some reason, that the states in the Muslim world that are supported by America and have been waging a constant war against Shariah, have anything to do with Shariah! Wow! You know a lot!!  

This statement makes no sense to me, could you elaborate.

If there was an actual Muslim state, free from the yokage of secular tyranny and American dominance, I would go there and I wouldnt hesitate!

The fact is that there are several countries that claim to be under sharia............not American dominance by a long shot,


Here we go.

Islamic countries:

Countries which recognize Islam as their official religion.

Afghanistan (Islamic state)
Algeria
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Brunei
Comoros
Egypt
Indonesia (recognize Islam as the six recognized religion, with Protestantism, Catholic, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism. Indonesia use Islamic jurisprudence in marriage and another jurisprudence.
Iran (Islamic state)
Iraq
Jordan
Kuwait
Libya
Malaysia
Maldives
Mauritania
Morocco
Oman
Pakistan (Islamic state)
Qatar
Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
Saudi Arabia (Islamic kingdom)
Somalia
Somaliland
Tunisia[5]
United Arab Emirates
Yemen (Islamic state)

I think I missed a few, but what the heck........

Soooo.....go Usama .......go, do not hesitate  :-D if you do not believe that there is one such state why not convince your fellow Muslim brothers in one of these countries, to make one. Change from within. Why are YOU living in a western country..............I will tell you why. You have a snowballs chance in HELL of making a difference, but will most likely be killed by your fellow MUSLIMS if you criticize their interpretation of Islam. So much for free speech. The only place you can speak up is among the KAFFIR, the only place you are safe from persecution from your fellow Muslims is among the KAFFIR.

as for you mustardseed, youre just an arrogant dweeb that gets delight out of expressing your conjectural opinions and crap.

Wow Osama, an arrogant Dweeb, for the uninitiated. Here is the definition:

Dweeb: an unsophisticated, obnoxious, person, (with very few exceptions, male) often a newbie, who, through ignorant posting, annoys, irritates and otherwise frustrates the regulars in a chat room or other online communication forum. Dweebs are often interested in meeting members of the opposite sex and pursuing women by exaggerating and boasting about themselves along with other annoying and inappropriate behavior.

My humility forbids me to speak of myself, :-D my only argument against the above is the term Ignorant. I am not ignorant Usama.....not ignorant at all, on the contrary i know what I am talking about. You know that and I know that.......so drop the insults.

go ahead, go worship freedom and your man-made nonsense!

Thankyou very much

Regards Mustardseed

My definition of life:

Birth begins experience. Experience forms definitions. Definitions form values. Values channel awareness. Awareness forms goals. Goals form paths. Paths form choices. Choices form experiences. And death breaks the cycle.

Killing is just another way of giving up.

Liars cheat themselves out of trust and friendship, and therefore spiritual evolution.

There is no heaven, it does not exist. For heaven is a state of being, and that state cannot be sustained. If you put one little red brush stroke on a canvas, it stands out, but when you paint the entire canvas red, all you end up with is a red canvas. And if all you see is red, then red ceases to be a color. That is the state of hell, not heaven. If all you see is good, then good ceases to exist for you, and everything bad stands out. Good should be in the foreground, not the background.

[edit] actually, there is a heaven, but it is not as we are taught in the Good Books of this world. Heaven is the state of having learned all the lessons- knowing where to be and when, having full awareness of everything that goes on in the Universe, knowing yourself completely and thoroughly, being aware of how different things affect you, etc.

No offense to anyone. Obviously, these are my beliefs, and if they don't ring true to you, ignore me.

Mustardseed - I applaud you for keeping your cool and maintaining your integrity under the circumstances.  You are setting the standards and should be proud of yourself.

:-D

The laws decreeing death for women who are raped, want a divorce, or who wish to marry who they choose are unjust. I don't care what ANY Muslim book says or how long it has been going on. It is unjust. Period. End of story. There is nothing left to argue about. This phenomenon needs to stop, now, and so does the practice of genital mutilation.

I'm not trying to turn this into a game of 'let's bash the Muslims,' nor am I making accusations against anyone here, but I just had a thought I wanted to share and discuss (I suppose it could also translate into a question I am asking). I perceive that there is a discrepancy with a concept mentioned in other threads about Islam that I have read: the idea that Muslims are free because they have surrendered to God (Allah), while non-Muslims are slaves under the rule of man.

First, what is the person joining surrendering? In other words, what are they giving up when they become a Muslim? I have only heard the word 'surrender' used in the context of war or conflict. Is there a war or conflict (even if only metaphorical) in which the person is surrendering? If so, who is involved?

Second, if Muslims are truly free, then why is anyone free to become a Muslim without fear of endangerment to their physical existence, but no one is free of the possible threat that someone will come after them to kill them- even if they move half-way around the world- for leaving? I'm always hearing/reading things in the news about people- more often women- who are killed because they choose to leave the religion and marry someone of their own choosing, or they want to experience a different way of life forbidden in Islamic holy scripture. This does not seem fair, just, kind, or necessary to me. If they are leaving, it is because they do not, as Muslims, wish to violate the holy ordinances described/prescribed within the scripture. They are choosing a different path. So why should that matter enough to other Muslims that someone should go after that person and kill them?

If this is what Muslims call freedom, then I have a very different definition. Therefore, if there is a translation issue, it needs to be corrected as soon as possible to make certain that there are no misunderstandings between anyone wishing to join and those who are already Muslims. Without proper and successful communication, no meaningful discourse can occur, and whoever joins is basing their decision on a belief in something that is not true- a falsehood.

If that falsehood or those falsehoods become(s) the foundation of the newly-converted person's faith, then their entire belief structure is in serious jeopardy and they are not protected in the way or ways that they think they are. So when the truth comes-a-knockin,' it would seem logical to me that anyone who has invested themselves greatly in such beliefs could not help but feel threatened by the truth rather than liberated. A tree that loses a limb loses all the branches that grow upon it- any psychologists (or other qualified and certified individuals) in the house would do well to correct me if what I say is not true. It may save much arguing and flinging of insults.

-I would just like to remind everyone that I am not making any accusation against anyone here-

If Islam is to be free, then there are a few things that need to happen: first, common misunderstandings MUST be addressed and explained clearly. Second, the extremists who are perpetrating violence against anyone for reasons of faith must be stopped and expelled from Islam.

While it may seem rather bold and even arrogant of me, a non-Muslim, to suggest these things, my intention is to help, not harm. There are gaps that must be bridged between Muslims and non-Muslims in order to ensure that future generations in this world will enjoy peace and prosperity, free of fear and violence, as well as other forms of vengeance which any extremists, fighting for any cause, may otherwise take upon each other and those who want nothing to do with their conflict(s).

Let us identify these gaps and close them and be proactive about our shared/collective future rather than reactive.

Venus: I never said it was okay to kill a girl that was raped by someone, to kill a victim. And I do not support religion doing this. I know that in countries, where islam is an official religion, it happens, but you will not find any support for this kind of acting neither in the Quran nor in the sunna. It is blinded people who do this. And I feel very sorry that it is happening in the world. I am a lawyer and hopefully one day I will fight against these kind of things. Where did it happen? In Pakistan I think? It is such a pity that a country created for muslims constantly acts against the prescriptions of islam, in the worst manner possible.

AmbientSound: Death penalty for apostasy? There is nothing like that in the Quran. On the contrary, the Quran says that for apostasy a person will be punished IN THE HEREAFTER.
I know that the four islamic schools recognize death penalty for muslims that convert. I think it is WRONG.
And I am not the only one, there are muslim scholars who think the same; Unfortunately, the majority of them agrees, which is something I do not understand.

Choice of religion, and conversion, are very personal matters and this decision deals only with relationsip between God and the person. Others have no say in it. It is said in the Quran, there is no compulsion in the religion.  You cannot use force or fear of death to prevent someone from converting, as the real faith comes from the heart. Actually, death penalty for apostasy is possible in these countries: SaudiArabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Mauritania, and also Pakistan, I guess.

Mustardseed:

You wrote that when muslims try to defend the atrocities commited in the name of islam, they inevitably talk about crusades etc, which happened in the past. There is no excuse for it, of course, and it is a bad argument, "christians did it as well". etc.

Why are you sending us, western muslims, to islamic countries? I am very much aware that in the western world there is much more freedom. I have responsibility only for myself, I cannot be held liable for all the bad things commited by others. However, I have spend quite a lot of time in Morocco so I know what life is like there and it is possible that I will stay there for a few years, as my husband comes from there and all his family lives there. You know what, his family is just normal, nice, kind people, of course it is a different culture so I had to adjust, but they respect me as a European and I respect them as they are. But I pay more attention to what kind of clothes I wear,  I always make sure that no man in the family can see a part of my belly, legs, etc. My husband' s sisters still live with them (they are not married), but they have their own car and work. Most of the limitating rules, for ex. woman cannot work, cannot walk alone in the street are part of a culture, not islam. In Morocco it depends on a family, whether you come from a countryside or a city, etc. But it is men who have the authority most of the times. Law is inspired by sharia but is constantly changing and coming closer to our western laws.

Yes, I have read the Quran, all of it, I have acquainted myself with hadiths, sharia, etc. As regards sharia, of course it is difficult for us to accept it, and for me as well, I have studied law (that belong to european continental system). So I cannot change my views so easily just because I become muslim. The problem is, as you probably know, we live in a world in which an accent is put on an individual. Of course the protection of the society is important, but no by any means. We care about rights of individuals. But in the past the society was much different, and it was an interest of society that was more important than that of an individual. That' s why it was considered appropriate to cut off someone"s hand for theft, etc; There was a big harm inflicted on a victim, like this he wouldn't steal any more, and it would protect the society. It is a very strict rule, of course. Today, for a theft you will get a fine, or maybe a few months of prison.

I believe that there is one Creator of the Universe. He has created us, put us in our physical bodies and gave us one opportunity to live on the earth; I do not know why, according to the Quran it is to test us both by good and bad things happening to us. In order to succeed, one must prove his perfect character, and show his best qualities, recognize, honour and be thankful to his Creator. Ther will be some people who will be successful who will go to Paradise, whatever it is, as it cannot be described by our "worldly" worlds. The rest will go to hell, I understand that they will be annihilated. It is extremely difficult to go to Paradise, I would say most people will not deserve it, I think, people who will go there will be those who are like some saints in christianity, Francois d' Assisi, etc. It is my opinion. Now I am thinking about Saint Mary, jesus' s mother. Do you think, if she lived in our times, that she would be fighting for a right not to cover her head? :)))))))))

I pray and I am thankful to the One who created me; I try to purify my character (it is VERY difficult), be tolerant, open minded, humble, etc. etc, when something bad happens to me, I try to understand that it was a will of God instead of getting angry, I try to understand that all good that happens to me is a blessing from God, for which I should be thankful and not take it for granted, I try to live according to basic good principles, without exception, I am trying to have the best posible relationship with my husband, yes, I am a muslim, I try to obey the will of God, can you tell me, Mustardseed, what's wrong with that?

I feel fulfilled, I did not find this kind of satisfaction in Christianism, nor in astral travel (I have some experience in astral travelling, meditation, even a little bit of clairvoyance) or some new age practices.
Am I doing something wrong? WHy should I stop with it only because there are people out there doing bad thing in the name of islam? I am not responsible for them.

I will translate for you an interesting article about islam written by a member of the European parliament, who spent a half of her life in the Middle East. But it will take me some time, I do not want to waste my Sunday on it:)

Kind regards,

Anelie

Mustardseed: I just read some of your posts and I found out they you as well spent a half of your life in an Arab country. Well, this is not the point, but it is an interesting article anyway, although, it probably won' t tell you anything new. We'll see. When I have time I will translate a bit of it.

Anelie:
You wrote that when muslims try to defend the atrocities commited in the name of islam, they inevitably talk about crusades etc, which happened in the past. There is no excuse for it, of course, and it is a bad argument, "christians did it as well". etc.

Mustardseed:That is correct, it is a bad argument

Why are you sending us, western muslims, to islamic countries?

I am NOT sending you anywhere. I only argue a point namely, if you believe Islam and Sharia to be so superiour, and even try to change the western judicial systems towards Sharia, why do you not instead go to countries where Sharia is the Law. You answered this question in the next sentence

I am very much aware that in the western world there is much more freedom.

Good so we agree on that. What do you think is the reason for this "much more freedom".....I shall tell you.....no Sharia!

I have responsibility only for myself, I cannot be held liable for all the bad things commited by others.

That is correct, but if you defend the atrocities committed by NOT speaking up against them you become responsible.

However, I have spend quite a lot of time in Morocco so I know what life is like there and it is possible that I will stay there for a few years, as my husband comes from there and all his family lives there. You know what, his family is just normal, nice, kind people, of course it is a different culture so I had to adjust,

Sure there are nice people everywhere

but they respect me as a European

Whooooeeee stop a minute....do you really believe that they do. I THINK NOT. If they did they would not mind what you wear, and where you work, or how you live your life. That is respect.

and I respect them as they are.

I believe you do......you have no option, if you do not you will loose your husband

But I pay more attention to what kind of clothes I wear,  I always make sure that no man in the family can see a part of my belly, legs,

You conform........Paul said I have become all things to all men, as a Jew to the Jews as a Roman to the Romans....you are becoming a Muslim to the Muslims.....a Christian notion

My husband' s sisters still live with them (they are not married), but they have their own car and work. Most of the limitating rules, for ex. woman cannot work, cannot walk alone in the street are part of a culture, not islam.

That is simply not correct. I could find the Suras to support this statement but if you have read the Koran you know, it is not so

In Morocco it depends on a family, whether you come from a countryside or a city, etc. But it is men who have the authority most of the times. Law is inspired by sharia but is constantly changing and coming closer to our western laws.

My point exactly........in order to come closer to freedom the law of the land will have to move toward western values, and away from Sharia. You see only in the west is there actual freedom. In the west we fight for the right of Muslims to wear what they will, companies are not even allowed by law to refuse to hire a woman wearing a scarf. WE fight for the rights of Muslims in the west, but Muslims in Muslim countries suppress and persecute non Muslims aided by the LAW. You see the difference?

Yes, I have read the Quran, all of it, I have acquainted myself with hadiths, sharia, etc. As regards sharia, of course it is difficult for us to accept it, and for me as well, I have studied law (that belong to european continental system). So I cannot change my views so easily just because I become muslim.

Yea you do have a problem there, on one hand you HAVE to change your mind as Sharia is ISLAM, on the other hand you see clearly it is not fair or just.....quite a enigma

The problem is, as you probably know, we live in a world in which an accent is put on an individual. Of course the protection of the society is important, but no by any means. We care about rights of individuals. But in the past the society was much different, and it was an interest of society that was more important than that of an individual. That' s why it was considered appropriate to cut off someone"s hand for theft, etc;

Do tell me that you agree that this is barbaric

There was a big harm inflicted on a victim, like this he wouldn't steal any more, and it would protect the society. It is a very strict rule, of course. Today, for a theft you will get a fine, or maybe a few months of prison.

Yes if that, sometimes they just let you off

I believe that there is one Creator of the Universe. He has created us, put us in our physical bodies and gave us one opportunity to live on the earth; I do not know why, according to the Quran it is to test us both by good and bad things happening to us.

Nothing new here most religions teach this same principle

In order to succeed, one must prove his perfect character, and show his best qualities, recognize, honour and be thankful to his Creator. Ther will be some people who will be successful who will go to Paradise, whatever it is, as it cannot be described by our "worldly" worlds. The rest will go to hell, I understand that they will be annihilated.

EXACTLY, in this regard ISLAM is like the EVANGELICAL movement, black or white heaven or hell. (Islam does teach that if you get killed while engaging in Jihad you will go straight to heaven)

It is extremely difficult to go to Paradise, I would say most people will not deserve it, I think, people who will go there will be those who are like some saints in christianity, Francois d' Assisi, etc. It is my opinion.

Sorry dear I do not mean to be impolite, but according to ISLAM you have no right to an opinion. NO CHRISTIAN CAN ENTER the Muslim heaven, it is not an option,it is NOT up to personal interpretation.

Now I am thinking about Saint Mary, jesus' s mother. Do you think, if she lived in our times, that she would be fighting for a right not to cover her head? :)))))))))

I am not sure. If she was catapulted here maybe but if she had been part of the gradual change toward freedom she would not, it is a moot point.

I pray and I am thankful to the One who created me; I try to purify my character (it is VERY difficult), be tolerant, open minded, humble, etc. etc, when something bad happens to me, I try to understand that it was a will of God instead of getting angry, I try to understand that all good that happens to me is a blessing from God, for which I should be thankful and not take it for granted, I try to live according to basic good principles, without exception, I am trying to have the best posible relationship with my husband, yes, I am a muslim, I try to obey the will of God, can you tell me, Mustardseed, what's wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with that at all......but it is not ISLAM, you should be embracing JIHAD, and you should not have all these "crazy" ideas of freedom, personal opinions, and Christians going to heaven. The fact of the matter is that you believe as a Christian, but because of your love for your Husband (and I applaud that), you are forced to live like a Muslim. None of the values you claim to have are ISLAMIC, they are in fact........Christian values, you have these because you appear to have been brought up in a Western society, ..........my dear........you are going backward


I feel fulfilled, I did not find this kind of satisfaction in Christianism, nor in astral travel (I have some experience in astral travelling, meditation, even a little bit of clairvoyance) or some new age practices.
Am I doing something wrong? WHy should I stop with it only because there are people out there doing bad thing in the name of islam? I am not responsible for them.

Basically you are saying that you are going to live as you live because it makes you happy, an UN-Islamic notion, what has happened appears that you have gotten a personal relation to the Divine, which is great. As far as you being responsible for the ones doing wrong things....yes you are. If you do not stand up for the freedom you have you will loose it. If you do not stand up and confront those who do bad things you become like them. Evil prosper when good men do nothing, and it is your responsibility like it is the responsibility of us all

I will translate for you an interesting article about islam written by a member of the European parliament, who spent a half of her life in the Middle East. But it will take me some time, I do not want to waste my Sunday on it:)

I look forward to it, regards to you as well

In ending this post my dear Anelie, if you have the courage please watch the following clip. It is a factual account and documented claim of women and Islam. It is not for the faint hearted so be forewarned. I do appreciate your desire to live at peace with all, something I believe says a lot about YOU, however we are discussing WOMEN and ISLAM, not Anelie and Islam. You would do well to remember that your perspective is just that ....your perspective, try to step out of the confines of your own experience and open your eyes and compare Women and Islam vs. Christianity and Islam. Be honest, Anelie, and ask the hard questions.

Regards Mustardseed

PS here is the clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfgIo9d354s







[/quote]

Anelie, I agree with your personal convictions pertaining to my previous post, and if all Muslims agreed with you then I would not have brought up the subject of death for apostasy. But it still happens, and it would be interesting to compare the views of a Muslim living in Western society to that of a Muslim living in one of the countries you mentioned in your response. From what you have said, it sounds to me like there is a discrepancy with the scripture and its interpretations. Whoever is in charge of enforcing these laws should get their facts straight.

Once again, I would like to point out how inaccurate translations can also confuse the issue. It could mean the difference between someone being PUNISHED in the hereafter and being SENT TO the hereafter.

A very interesting clip here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS4v_kj9rw4

Women and Islam, what do you think

People ought to be free to do as they wish without threats of others imposing their own form of punishment on them. Everything is a state of mind, and what you make an issue of is entirely up to you. That is what I say.

mustardseed: I am sorry I have not replied to you yet, but I don' t have enough time for the moment.
I watched the video (not the funny one, but the cruel one) with my husband and he was shocked, more than me. He told me, he knew that things like that happen, but he never saw anything like that. he could not understand the women' s circonscision (or whatevers the word), lapidation, letting girls burn because they did not have their heads covered, etc. I was surprised how sensible he is, much more than me, and I am a woman.
Of course, that video is horrible, but you see, he is a muslim, from a muslim country, not "europeanized" and he does not agree with that and is shocked by that. there is another problem, extreme poverty and analphabetism, both of them supported by the governments of muslim countries...

As regards me adjusting to culture of his family and not vice versa, it is not true. If I pay attention to what I wear, it is out of my respect for them. They did not treat me as if I were from morocco, but always asked me if i prefer to do things in a european way (eat from my own plate, etc...), and they even let me sleep alone in a room with my husband to be, although it is something against their moral rules... and I could continue. But, they are not analphabets, and they are understanding...

As regards sharia, I cannot accept it, as I promised to honour laws of my country.
But i did not want to say that sharia is barbaric. How can you be so sure that it is a good
think that our society has become so individual centered? That was my point. Only the way sharia is
executed in some countries is barbaric.

As regards st Paul: become jew to jews, muslim to muslims, etc. I call that hypocrisy.

As regards jihad, if you spent years in arab countries, you probably speak arab, then you probably know that this word means effort, and not only saint war. The best jihad for woman is to be a good wife to her husband, and i am trying be a good wife...well... unfortunately I have a pretty difficult character:)
Not every muslim killede during jihad will go to paradise, even prophet said that about one man
who died in a jihad war. In order to do this kind of jihad, you must be spiritually developed to a certain level, it is not that everyone can do it (thats what my husband told me)

It is simply not true that as a muslim I dont have right to an opinion, how come that I say often my opinion to muslims, face to face? And they don't insult me. Why they did not kill me yet. I say many things against their beliefs. They, muslim men, tell me: it is not a the fact that a women covers her head, that makes a muslim out of her. It is in your heart... If you feel it, you do it, if not, do not do it, and you are still a muslim. Really, I have more and more impression that many bad things connected with islam come from the culture and many muslim men from muslim countries tell me the same thing.

It is not up to us, human beings, to decide, whether a christian can go to heaven. It is up to God, whatever people say.

My husband always says... there are no true muslims in this world anymore...

I hope this weekend I will be able to translate you the article

mustardseed: I read your message once again, you told me, compare women and islam with women and christianity; the problem is, most christian countries are rich, developed countries.  But what about christianism in africa? I would say, women there are forced to be married as well, etc. etc. Mum of a friend of mine (he is from nigeria) got married when she was 12 with a man 15 years older that her. Or I remember, that in Africa people think that if they have sex with a baby it will protect them from getting aids. etc, etc, etc. Or women from christian part of india, south america... I hope you see my point.

I know that I talk about my ideal islam, but it is the right islam. maybe I will show it to this world one day. One clairvoyant told me a few days ago that I am full of evil and agressivity and that my destiny is politics, hahaha, but who knows...

Peace, I think this discussion leads nowhere, I understand very well your point,
but i simply do not think that it is the true islam what you describe. Although it is a reality.

Anelie makes some good points. A society that is too individualized can breed an attitude of "I've got mine and screw everyone else." That is not a good attitude for anyone to have and there is no excuse for it. But a society that is not individualized enough cannot adapt to change fast enough to survive. Freedom has its price, and one should only exercise the freedoms for which they are strong enough to handle. There must be a time and place for individuality, and there must be a time for congregating with others. Sharing a common goal is what unites us. If that goal is taken away, the will of the people cannot be galvanized. There must be a balance between individualization and congregation. We must all maintain the awareness that we're all in this together, regardless of what we believe. Using nuclear weapons on our enemies affects our friends negatively, for example, as radioactive particles travel the world's air currents and poison the very people we are fighting for.

Hiding ourselves and running from the things that 'mess with our heads' only makes us more weak and evil each time we do it. It is up to us to put ourselves to the challenge of encountering the things that happen in this world and learn how to deal with them. Some of them we must let happen. Those which are universally condemned, we should make great effort to stop.

Quote from: anelie. on October 31, 2008, 20:17:32
mustardseed: I read your message once again, you told me, compare women and islam with women and christianity; the problem is, most christian countries are rich, developed countries.  But what about christianism in africa? I would say, women there are forced to be married as well, etc. etc. Mum of a friend of mine (he is from nigeria) got married when she was 12 with a man 15 years older that her. Or I remember, that in Africa people think that if they have sex with a baby it will protect them from getting aids. etc, etc, etc. Or women from christian part of india, south america... I hope you see my point.

I know that I talk about my ideal islam, but it is the right islam. maybe I will show it to this world one day. One clairvoyant told me a few days ago that I am full of evil and agressivity and that my destiny is politics, hahaha, but who knows...

Peace, I think this discussion leads nowhere, I understand very well your point,
but i simply do not think that it is the true islam what you describe. Although it is a reality.

Dear Anelie
While it is probably true that some girls may have been married at 12 in Nigeria, and that Nigerian men widely believe that having intercourse with a child is a cure for aids, there is one fundamental difference, and reason why your argument does not hold.

All over the 3rd World tribal people and animistic people increasingly become more civilized, people who are un educated become educated. Generally speaking these atrocities that was shown on the video is the way many of them lived their lives, honor killings female circumcision Child brides etc. As they come closer to Christianity and as they "grow in the faith" as Christians call it, they realize the barbaric aspect of their former tradition and CHANGE to become more what we term Civilized, the same is the case if they simply become educated and remain secular. However after they come closer to ISLAM they actually become more entrenched and justified in these actions through ISLAM.

There is one reason for this.........men rule women in Islam. There is no equality for women. This is what we are discussing. There might be marriages in which there is equality, but these are western influenced unions, or unions where 1 partner is from the west, and they are not the norm nor in agreement with Islamic tradition and jurisprudence. You are arguing that Christianity has the same view but this is not so. Generally speaking only the Apostle Paul had a lot to say about men being over women, Jesus appear NOT to have had that attitude and one of his closest followers and the one he showed himself to after having risen was Magdalena. In Christian countries there is more equality because there is more civilization. It is a fact.

In Islam this is so vastly different. Men rule Islam and women have no say whatsoever, none at all. Take a look at this Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY-fhRXP0aQ&feature=related

And if you would like a documentation on this look here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahrir-ol-vasyleh

All in all, (and not using some obscure child in Nigeria) pedophilia is forbidden and abhorred in Christian Civilized countries AS WELL as Christian fellowships in poor countries.

Anelie, there is only the Islam you see....... this hidden Islam you claim to know is NOT Islam. It is a concoction, a fantasy that YOU and many others engage in, in order to stay together with Husbands and Family brought up in Islam, I understand that, and sympathise. If you have been raised in Islam it is VERY hard to leave, first of all it is a permanent severance of all social ties as you become a heretic worse than a Khuffar. You endanger your life, as Apostasy is punishable with Death. This does not go for all Islamic countries, but in EVERY ONE OF THEM, you become an outcast. As a result people compromise and pretend.....they go along with their religious leaders, and in order to justify this incredible compromise and failure as a decent human being, they make up a fantasy religion......Islam as it should be......they call it the REAL Islam, but it is NOT. Real Islam is the rule of the land in Islamic countries, it is Palestinian Children clamoring to become suicide bombers, child brides, honor killings, rapes and stonings as well as an incredible horrific unjust treatment of Women.

Jihad means struggle, yes, however if you look at History, it has always been armed struggle. Only in recent years have these same moderate Muslims I mention above started to describe Jihad as an inner struggle. Traditionally Jihad was always armed struggle in the name of ISLAM. I do not want to barrage you with arguments for this but do check this out with historians. If you go to answerislam and all the other apologist sites you will only be fed the normal propaganda, so look with historians who have no interest with either standpoint. I wish you all the best.

It is true that for you maybe there is no point to this discussion but out there somewhere there may be countless other young girls who are falling for the lies and deceit, they deserve the truth, and speaking the truth or discussing what the truth IS, in a certain situation is never pointless.

Regards Mustardseed

Ps any Clairvoyant telling you stuff like that is off their rocker. You should stay away from people like that. 

Mustardseed: what you have sent me, it is not acting of muslims.
THERE ARE NO REAL MUSLIMS IN THIS WORLD anymore,
the true muslims are very rare.


In order to improve the situation in these countries, you
will not achieve anything by atacking islam. You have to put
a political pression on the governments of the countries concerned.
As well as an embargo, etc. As the USA have done with Cuba.
The problem is that Cuba has nothing important to offer,
but many islamic countries have oil that the developed world need.

Our western world is  not the way it is thanks to christian religion, on the
contrary, the  more it distanced itself from christianity,
the more developed it got. Or, what about japan, it is not based
on christian values at all:)

Maybe you dont see it in the USA, people are
quite religious there, in Europe churches are empty. The reason for it is,
as I read, that in USA, the (sorry I dont know what it is called like exactly)
social security system is not very well developed (money that you get from the state
when you lose your job, when you are seriously ill, etc) In Europe it is very well
developed, governments take a very good care of their citizens.
Sometimes it is even better for people not to work, they get from the government
enough money to live well.

In USA, I read, it is different and it is churches who assume this role, take care
of people in need etc. In Europe, churches are subsidised by governments,
so priests do not care much, they get their salaries anyway, whether people
go to church or not. In the USA, churches must do their best to attract their clients.

But, what I wanted to say, is that our society is based on ATHEIST values.
All european philosophy is based on it, humanism, nihilism, existencionalism, etc.

As regards christian values how can we be sure that we understand them well.
The idea of loving my enemy has always perplexed me. How to understand the word
love? Today, the world love got different connotations than in the times of jesus.
What happened to the real "agape"?
Do you remember that jesus even told that slaves shouldnt try to liberate themselves, but should
be satisfied with their status? So why did we abolish slavery? because it is an atheist idea,
freedom, not christian.

You see, our society is too different from the real christian society as well, todays times are
far away from it, because, as I have already written, it has became very individualized.
Thats why we cannot properly apply nor christian, nor islamic teachings. It does not
conform with our societies.

I do not contact clairvoyants, but some people feel a strong need to
inform me bout my future, although I never ask them:)))

I am sorry that I changed a little bit  subject, it is not about women and islam anymore.

Dear Anelie
No need to apologize, I find your arguments very interesting honest and compelling, and it is all a part of the big picture. I will have to think about it a bit and will get back to you. I really appreciate being able to talk about this without aggression and name calling. A good thing....thankyou.

Regards MS

mustardseed: I thank you as well.

I have just found an interesting article about how the period of enlightement changed
profoundly our society.

http://histclo.com/act/rel/hist/rh-enl.html

ambientsound: yes, our society is individual centered, something that did not exist before.
we have our freedom, which brought many good things to us, and we cannot accept things of the past anymore. I have nothing against that, only, i think we have become too selfish, which is bad for us.
Also our society is too much based on materialistic values which even the most spiritual person cannot escape. Personally, I 'feel" a strong spiritual emptiness in western society. 

Dear Anelie
Although you have a point about Japan and civilization, try to look a little deeper.

Take a look at this

Mioko Fujieda, (from Some Thoughts on Domestic Violence in Japan),    

Domestic violence went largely unrecognized by Japanese society and unaddressed by the Japanese government until the early 1990s. Through a couple of highly publicized cases of extreme violence against women, advocates finally began to capture the attention of the country. The Domestic Violence Action and Research Group, a nongovernmental group of activists, practitioners, and researchers seized the opportunity to conduct a nationwide survey of the experiences of violence in women's lives. The results demonstrated what Japanese women had known for years—that domestic violence is a serious problem in Japan.
(end quote)

The fact of the matter is that Women are horribly treated in both Japan and India as well as in Buddhist countries. Japan has made a big jump into the modern age, but one can argue what makes a country civilized, material progress or how they treat the weak and the poor?. That is an interesting issue. I would say that the way to judge an individual and his moral fiber, is how he treats those less fortunate than himself, (the poor the wear the sick etc) so maybe this can also be used as a model to judge a society. I have lived in India for years as well as the Mideast they are very similar in their approach to women, and the poor....horrible.

You say that I should not attack Islam, but instead put pressure on the Govt. well that is not an option for me. :-D In order to build something you have to tear the old down and it can seem like a brutal process, especially if your heart and life is vested in the old. I will have do what I can, and that is to take part in the debate here and other places.

I still think that Islam represses women, free thought and free speech and all the very things a free world is made up of. Furthermore I see it in the way Muslims argue and how Muslim clergy acts.

I think that this "Dream Islam" that people invent is only that a dream. What do you think about that notion.? Nice people calling themselves Muslims does not make Islam a "nice" religion. You can't just "make up" what a new version of Islam Anelie, it is what it is, based on what it teaches, how the followers of it interpret it. You can see weather a tree is a good tree by the fruit it bears, the result. A good tree will bear good fruit a bad tree will bear bad fruit. Now I am not saying that bad stuff does not happen in Western Christian civilization....they do BUT they are not SANCTIONED by the religion of the land.

Take a look at these facts written by an Atheist:
http://www.liberator.net/articles/TremblayFrancois/Islam.html

Regards MS

Anelie, I understand your perception of spiritual emptiness in the West. I'm a U.S. citizen and I have witnessed what you mean. This happens for two reasons:

First, Christianity is the dominant religion in politics. Though we are supposed to have a separation of Church and State, there are a lot of people in the United States who call themselves Christian but know absolutely nothing about the religion because they were discouraged from asking questions, or punished when they did ask. I have a friend who was slapped across the face as a child for asking why Mary was a virgin but could have a baby. Some people are consumed and blinded by their passion for their religion so much that they are quick to dole out punishment when they perceive a wrong has been done to their god. These are people that believe the world and everything in it was created in seven days, which the world at large knows to be scientifically impossible. These are people who do not use reason and critical thinking to solve their problems. They are slaves to their own minds and fears. I even lived with a couple people who were always talking about the Lord and how we should be thankful, etc. But they did it in an accusatory, finger-pointing way, which turned me off to the idea of Christianity. They were self-righteous hypocrites, not people who were truly enlightened. But then, experience is something you get just after you need it. I haven't seen them in years and they may very well have changed.

The second reason for spiritual emptiness is the phenomenon of technological distractions. People spend their time focusing on anything except the situations in which they find themselves. They are usually talking on cell phones, playing video games WHILE they are walking down a street, listening to music through headphones and drowning out all other noise, etc. We aren't making the world a better place by unplugging ourselves from reality.

The other part of it is that a lot of people have to work two jobs just to make ends' meet. They don't have time to think about spiritual matters because they are too busy trying to survive. Technology was supposed to shorten the amount of time we had to spend working. Obviously, this is not the way things turned out. In the 1950's a man could support his entire family working as a grocery store clerk/cashier. Today, one cannot even support themselves with such a job, let alone that most businesses and organizations won't hire anyone without at least a bachelor's degree from a university.

What we should do is render the economy obsolete through the advancement of technology- technology that runs on renewable and clean energy, and takes care of all our physical survival needs, including surgery and medical care, constructing food out of atoms and molecules, etc. I proposed this already in Astral Chat under a topic called "If robots ran the world" to get some feedback from others.

one thing I just wanted to say: Islam, Christianity, Judaism- three branches of the same tree. I feel it is important to maintain good relations between all three of these religions. With all the fighting going on between the three, I can only assume that someone wants to keep us apart so that we don't see what's really going on.

mustardseed: i will get back to you later. I will not have access to internet for a few days and i don' t have time now to write long answers.

Ambientsound: I agree with everything you have written. Yes, I felt this emptiness but I never knew what makes people so empty. You gave me an answer.

There are many more things that make people so empty. Part of it is being shown the fairy tale version of life, where everyone ends up "happily ever after," only to be thrust into the "real world" which appears more like a desolate wasteland of intelligence, sincerity, and charity. It's like sticking a hologram of a rose and an actual moldy banana side by side and observing the resulting relationship. You aren't actually seeing a rose, just its illusion. Nor do you smell it. But that moldy banana is quite solid and real.

I think that something is going to happen to the people who possess the greatest monetary power and wealth, in our lifetimes, which will set off a chain of events that will lead to an eventual balancing of power between those who lead and those who are led. There is a lot of talk of 2012 and there seem to be quite a few people who believe in it. 2012 marks the end of the Mayan calendar. I don't know enough about it to say whether there is relevant cause to believe in this prophecy, but it's certainly causing quite a buzz amidst a lot of people. I have seen a few documentaries about it, all of which were fascinating. It was compelling, to say the least.

Quote from: Synergy on August 04, 2008, 21:13:06I read a few quotes in there that basically say that women were created equal to men, but then why are men guardians over women?  Could guardian and protector simply mean the literal meanings of that men are supposed to protect the women, but not dominate over them?  Why in Islam, do women enjoy far fewer freedoms than men? (examples, they can not walk in public alone without a male family member... but men are allowed to walk without a female family member, men do not have to cover their bodies up like a women, men can marry 4 wives (does that mean women can marry 4 husbands too?) Men are promised virgins in heaven... do women get virgin males in heaven?)  This does not sound like the 'equality' that was quoted from the Quran....  More examples... why is a women who was raped scorned as being 'unpure' even though she is the victim? Where are her male protectors then?  Why is the burden of proof ALWAYS on the women to prove rape, and then of course the male witnesses will not tell the truth, and then the women is punished for making it up? What women would want to admit that she had been violated then?  Why do women have to worship in a separate area behind men in mosques?

as your words clearly demonstrate, women are not treated as equals within islam.  for example, in the last five years there have been 600 iraqi women who have set themselves ablaze with kerosene to protest the oppression which they receive from their men.

There will come a day when all people are free. They already are, but they have to realize it for themselves. Freedom isn't something that somebody gives you, it's something you have to give to yourself. It comes from inside you. The realization that you are free must occur before action can be taken to persuade one's oppressor to recognize it as fact. You're not asking to be free, you're asking others to recognize that you already are free, that the possibility exists that you will make choices that they may disagree with, and that they have the same freedom. Equality is real. Status is an illusion. Even status allegedly given unto others by holy scripture and writings.

Quantum physics might seem like an obscure subject for most people, but it reveals just how much of our reality is shaped by perspective and observation.

Quote from: AmbientSound on November 23, 2008, 02:23:57
There will come a day when all people are free. They already are, but they have to realize it for themselves.

i realize that i'm free.  i'm just waiting for my mortgage lender to come to the same level of enlightenment.

Mustardseed: your did not replied to most of the points I raised in my previous message. You only talk about the disrecpet of women´s rights in Japan, but I do not think that that was the main issue in my message. But I agree with you, every eastern society, including Japan is much more traditionalist than us, and that is reflected in their behaviour to women.
You wrote that "I still think that Islam represses women, free thought and free speech and all the very things a free world is made up of."

You will find the answer in the article of the European Parliament Deputy, who spent a half of her life in the Middle East:
it isnot a perfect translation, so it does not sound like a real English, but I hope that my translation is understandable.
And by the way, as regards a part about anaphabetism, and the effort of the government to deprive the poor people of their rights and income, my husband, who is from Maroc, told me about it already many times, so it is not only one person´s point of view.

Here is the article:


Islam

The problem is not in Islam, but in the oil. Thanks to the oil incomes the regimes of the Middle East are free to ignore the requirements of the policical and economic modernization.
The scandal about the caricatures of the prophet Mohammed has worsen the relationship between the arab Middle East and Europe.  The closer look att he situation shows that islam serves only as a pretext. In fact the ruling security and military structures of the arab countries are in favour of such conflict. If we don´t exert enough pressure on them we might face in future not only  instability, but also a large military conflict.

Muslims don´t think much about their abstract God, they have a clear idea about him. Allah is unique and decides about everything. To Him belong all the will and responsibility. Islam means submission. To be a muslim  is a way of life, it is a complex of daily customs, life in a community. Common prayers, common purification, common pilgrimage to Mecca, common friday prayer, common fasting, following of the same law, family life, celebration of festive days. To be a muslim means to live a fully valued life of an islamic community.  There is no need to be afraid of islam as an ideologic phenomenon. In its essence it is not a violent, untolerant and expansive phenomenon, but on the contrary, it is an instrument of consolidation and stabilisation.  In the chaos of the collapse of the ancient empires Islam become an instrument of a calm cohabitation and flowering of many doctrines, philosophies and cultures. As a reflection of christianity and judaism that were shown as an error in communication of the real God Revelation, Islam tried to consolidate, simplify and precise the monoteistic vision of the world.  God according to the Coran is unique, has no partner, is allmighty, He has all the will and He decides everything. Islam removed the complexity of Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, just as it simplified the old-testament Prophets.

More than by the fire and the sword, Islam expanded by demographic explosion of the descendants of arab warriors (fighters?). During centuries Islam created a unique place for tolerant cohabitation of independently organised communities, that were allowed to keep their own system of law, religion, social and tax system and sanctuaries.

In the course of the centuries Islam found big inner balance. Even the slowly degrading Osman´s Empire did not evoke a need of an inner reform, analogy of protestantism. Only the fast and violent invasion of Napoleon and colonialism from the West forced the islamic masses to quickly search the answers for the questions of the modern world – victory of the foreign armies, decline of its own economy, the end of the middle-age erudition.  Muslim masses searched the defence in turning to the fundamentals, roots of their faith. When the British and the French, almost from day to day, without a calm handover of power, quitted after the second world war their dominions, it was, almost without an exeption, security and military apparatus that got the power in the concerned countries, instead of natural elites.  This security and military apparatus became a direct part of the Cold war conflict. Instead of urban, cultural and commercial elites the Middle East is until now dominated by security apparatuses and armies.

Community character, simplicity of its teachings and no separation of the religion and the State make out of Islam a very effective totalitary idelology of the early industrialization.  Allah´s teachings serve very well to the ,,consolidation and stabilisation" of uneducated, unemployed, unproductive and in poverty living masses. Islam was misused as a totalitarian, mass and bolshevik ideology.

This means that contemporary Islam is not a cause, but a consequence, not a source, but a side-effect of a big  danger.  Bolshevization, radicalization and extremism of the political and social systems of the Middle East may be theoretically compared to the situation in pre-industrial Russia or to Germany humiliated by the defeat in the First World War.  It is a phenomenon that might lead to a profound and long-lasting instability of that area. That might end in a long lasting world conflict, unleashed by terrorist groups and fed by security and military systems, self-assigned  interpretors of the God´s truth, decadent feudal families and demographic pression from bedouine cultures. Since Islam is not the source of the conflict, it is neither a starting point to its solution. The only solution is a change of political systems in the Middle east.

Oil as a problem

The main source of problems is the oil. Thanks to the easy incomes from its exploitation, the developement in the Middle East stopped at the pre-industrial stage. Growing consumption of the oil caused increasing of the oil income without any requirements for modernisation and lead to the fact that the arab world stayed at the stage  of the desintegration of feudal structures. Where there is no tax, there is no need for reprezentation. In the Middle East there is even no need for the population, because the population only lowers the oil incomes of those who dominate them.  Why share it with the population they don´t need?  Why to invest in its development? Why care about its education and social, cultural, political, social security development? Why to increase its employment rate? It is only necessary to consolidate and stabilize the arab masses, to domitate them and keep them on the income of 1 to 2 euros per day.

Dependant on oil are also the  Middle East countries that do not exploite it, every year, they get, through a redistribution of the oil ressources, 22 milliards of euros.  The less dependent country is Morocco – one third of its labour force works in Europe. Stable third class, whose existence is enabled by the cultural capital and free work in the services, does not exist anywhere. Tunis lives out of the oil investment in the tourism. Security apparatus, conjunctural profiteers and  feudal families control the population with the help of  the consolidating, stabilizing, tradicionalistic, mass, even totalitarian instrument. Islam helps to dominating elites to keep the control of the oil incomes.  And that is where lies its danger.

A big number of the analphabets

The second source of the problems is the demographic explosion caused by a higher hygienic standard and development of the  health care, especially thanks to the use af the antibiotics.  Oil income ensure a very good level of the basic health care for the whole population.  Islamic prohibition of the contraception caused in the last few centuries the fact that the Middle East reaches the highest portion of the young generation in the population structure in the world.  The growth of the oil prices maybe enables the growth of the GDP, but it does not mean any growth of the expenses for education.  Arab population grows asymetrically, most people are born at the social bottom, at the income level of 1-2 euros per day.

The oil mana does not need any more investment.  The Middle East is the most retarded area in the world as regards the creation of new jobs (working posts?)  growth of the work productivity, technology modernization, and development of services, science and the system of education.  Therefore we are facing millions of analphabets, who cannot find any place for them on the job market, have no social security, no information and no influence on the politics. These social strata with the lowes social mobility in the world are kept only on the level of a life  minimum. Masses in Algeria, Lebanon, Iran, Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran, as well as Palestine only confirmed that they don´t need to consolidate with the help of security systems, there is no need to  fight for  democratic right to vote. They themselves vote for the stabilisation and consolidation, that means Islam. 

The third problem lies in a fact that  in order to fulfill the role of the consolidating and stabilizing function, Islam needs an inner, as well as external conflict.  The external conflict is obvious.  The statements of the iranian president Ahmadi about the holocaust and destroying of Izrael, the case of the iranian nuclear program, misuse of the danish caricatures by the syrian secret services to start political convulsions are the clear manifestations of the support of the consolidation of the totalitarian power  of the security apparatus.  The reason is clear, to name a common external ennemy, meaning the western democratic civilizations and their representant in the Middle East -  Izrael.

The biggest inner conflict of the contemporary Middle East takes place between the controllers of the oil income and those who assume that their ,,natural" right to these incomes is being taken from them.  An example par excellence is a deprivated member of a commercial Ladin family,  many leading salafists represented in the kuwait parliament or the growing number of wahhabist leaders, not to speak of Muslim brothers of a jordanian prisoner Zarqawi. In the Middle East it is the question of ensuring one´s portion on the oil income.
In order to get such power it is necessary to use all the possible means, including killing of the people whose faith is not strong enough. This model of behaviour is the same as that of the totalitarian regimes.

European responsibility

But do we realize our european responsibility for the development in the Middle East? The only solution is a prompt, clear, unconditional and hard pression on the change of the political conditions. We should focus on the observance of law, end of the economic discrimination, respect of human rights, including democracy, freedom of speach and of religion. As regards Iran, it is necessary to introduce intelligent measures: stop movement of its diplomats, to limit travelling of its prezident, unable the Iran Air to fly abroad, exclude the country from the football world championship: These are sanctions that do not destroy economy of the country and will not harm the income of the poorest. The same as regards Syria: if we put a pressure on an immediate and complete withdrawal of the syrian security from Libanon, marking the syrian-libanese border as a legal international border, the unconditional realization of the announced economic liberalization, setting free  the political prisoners, recognition of the kurdish minority, complete end of censure. With Egypt we have to negotiate the end of the numerous civil and military aids, if the prezident Mubarak does not admit false elections, if he does not permit due registration of the political parties and if he does not set free domocratic dissidents.

As regards other countries of the Middle East... (repeating the same things...) plus there should be more internships and more programs for the development of education.  Pressure should be also put on the growth of the employment rate through reinvestment of the oil incomes, supporting the internal arab commerce, construction of energetic and traffic network.

However, the real solution is only one: to limit the consumption of energy = oil. Because the level of unstability is directly proportional to the growth of unstability and big problems of the Middle East. Let´s hope that Europe will deal with climate changes. But it is the USA, who, if they want to stay the leaders of the world development, have to accept the leading role in the modern synergy politics. Fight against terrorism and with climate changes are the two sides of the same coin.

ambientsound: I am not sure that it is so easy with realising that all people are free. Sometimes the reality is just too real:)
I am not much in favour of the 2012, but who knows, maybe there will be some kind  of a war... what else it should be? War can lead even to a good thing, if it weren´t for the Second world war, there would be  no European Union today, who was created in order to prevent another big european conflict. And it worked pretty well. But I like your description of the today´s world: a rose in the banana mold:)

For the sake of clarity (for those that are reading this and are not bilingual), that the word  analphabet here means illiterate.  It's probably self- explanatory, but I thought I'd point this out.  :-)
Very interesting article, btw.

We are part of an evolutionary process. We struggle to be free because we must learn to let go of our old ways. Those in power, the head of our "tribes,"  must be removed from power in order for the rest of us to progress. We have the technology today to do absolutely anything we want, but the red tape and restrictions on what is allowed and what is not is what prevents this technology from being implemented to everyone's benefit. Though I tend to believe that those with the most power are also the most corrupt and evil, no matter how good they may appear to be, I cannot know for sure. I can only bear witness to the consistently atrocious decisions made by the Bush administration, which to me marks the height of this evil (so far). These corporate cronies built their own administration and hijacked America, and that's really what it comes down to. Eight years have passed and nothing has happened to them. Yet Obama, the guy who has to fix this mess, faces more death threats than any president in U.S. history! Our leaders GREATLY underestimate the importance of education.