have a Merry PAGAN holiday!!!!

[runlola]

 

[Sasuke]

Very interesting, but I don't think the fact that Christmas borrows some pagan rituals and traditions, as well as it's date, makes it any less valid as a holiday, really. Most Christians who care to do research know that Christ wasn't likely born in December, and that the Romans placed the holiday there for ease of transition. The message, however, is still the same, whenever it takes place.

[Gandalf]

The message, however, is still the same, whenever it takes place.

Well, the old message is certainly still there (good thing too!), as is the later christian message, for those who want to celebrate the later aspect, which is an 'add-on' or re-interpretation.

Let me explain more about the original (most important imv) message:

It is correct that most of what we associate with Christmas comes from the Roman holiday of Saturnalia as already stated.

The Saturnalia basically celebrated the end of the solar year and the winter solstice when the nights began getting shorter again, where light overcomes the dark. The god of agriculture and time was Saturn (equated with the greek Cronus)  and he marked this time of year.

Like all winter festivals (like the anglo-saxon 'Yule'), it was meant to cheer people up and draw families and friends together in hearth and home over the darkest period of winter and to provide cheer against the cold winter darkness. One of the most popular gifts people gave each other during the Saturnalia was little white candles, which symbolised the victory over darkness.


All the best bits of christmas (that actually make it fun) come from the Roman Saturnalia (and to a smaller degree the saxon 'yule'):

ie Giving and receiving presents during the 7 days of Saturnalia (later reworked into the 12 days of christmas, although some pagan anglo-saxon 'yule tide' influence there too).

Feasting at each others houses and wearing silly hats, public feasting was also laid on by the state for everyone.

Goodwill to all men. The law courts were suspended for the duration of the Saturnalia for this reason. Roles were reversed in the household for one day and masters served their slaves.

The greeting everyone used to each other was 'IO Saturnalia!' pronounced  'Yo Saturnalia!'.

As the 25th of december marked the actual solstice, this day was particularly special and became associated with Mithras the eastern sun god (later christ).


Saturn would come to childrens' bedrooms during the night and leave them their Saturnalia presents, often a special knife for a boy (this marked a stage in his coming of age)... sound familiar anyone? Santa watch out.

Saturnalia was THE biggest festival of the Roman year and by far and away everyone's favourite time of year, just as it is now. Roman writers talk of the bustle of the city as everyone was getting ready for Saturnalia, so much so that several of these writers retreated to the estates to escape the chaos!  (no change from today then!).

This festival was just too popular to stop so when christianity eventially became the official religion of the empire in the 4th century ad, the  church and state simply incorporated it into the christian calender.... they disaproved of the fun aspect of it but they couldnt stop it.

Even now the church sometimes complains but they forget that the fun and good cheer aspect is essential as that is what the winter festival is all about. It is as important now then as it was then: providing love and warmth during the cold winter darkness.

For me, that is STILL what Chrstmas is all about: I don't celebrate christ's part in it because that religion's part in this festival is, for me, in name only, other people have long known this.. thats why christian fundamentalists are always trying to ban christmas.

the festival we now know as christmas means so many things to different people; christians can and should celebrate it and non-christians too... that is what this time of year is all about.. goodwill to ALL men!

so when someone goes on about 'getting back to the true meaning of christmas', they usually mean the christian part of the festival, but they sould be careful about this statement as they might be in for a shock!

Doug

[dmoney]

The message, however, is still the same, whenever it takes place.

very ironic you said that because the second I read that, it turned to the song The Message by Grand Master Flash on my iPod.

[Heather B.]

Thanks for this posting--I love to read about the historical roots of modern holidays and festivals.  

I've never felt that acknowledging the pre-Christian customs that have been passed down for so long in any way diminishes the Christian meaning.  The jubilant and harmonious spirit of Saturnalia, along with the symbolism of light overcoming darkness, couldn't be a more suitable tribute to Christ's birth (whenever it may have been).  If we're going to celebrate it, we should celebrate it just like that!  :mrgreen:

People need to accept that fact that Christianity didn't come into being in a vacuum, and it will never exist in a vacuum.  I think the world would be a much happier, less petty place, if that would happen.  

[cobalt]

is paganism something bad..as i know its just a differnet religion..

[Gandalf]

No paganism is not bad at all. However you will get some bad pagans, just as you get some bad christians, or hindus or athiests etc

Modern neo-Paganism has a lot going for it. Please do not accept the 'paganism=satanism' false association used by fundamentalist christians, it should be obvious that they have their own agenda.

Modern neo-paganism is a very ethically and ecologically aware belief system and its respect for nature and all living things within the natural world is a value set  that everyone should take account of.

Doug

[Heather B.]

Ironically, the very term "pagan" has pre-Christian Roman roots.  It comes from the Latin paganus, which literally means "country-dweller," but has rather negative connotations--people who are uncivilized, uncultured, rough, stupid, etc.  Sort of how some people think of country-dwellers even today--bumpkins, hillbillies, etc.

Among Roman soldiers, it meant "civilian" with the negative connotation of "an incompetent soldier."

After the Christianization of the empire, it came to refer to the people in rural areas who held on to their old, non-Christian religion and deities.

It just goes to show how relative things are... and how mutable language and meaning are.

[AstralBorn]

Sorry... I dont mean to sound rude but christmas has nothing to do with paganism... Or christianity...
The ties with paganism you posted are just...... Ridiculous... No offence.

long ago some guy whent to some town and left sacks of money or objects hanging on the doors of every house every year around mid to late december, and sometimes he threw it down there chimneys... that is were christmas comes from...

"have a Merry PAGAN holiday!!!!" It is not a pagan holiday...
Any SIMILARITIES to pagan traditions does not make the holiday pagan, Nor does it make paganism the root of the traditions...

[Gandalf]

I will assume that the last post was a sad attempt at a flame and ignore it; I'm sorry you feel challenged by a bit of education.

As I and others here have said, nobody is seriously trying to diminish the christian aspect of christmas: after all, it is that aspect which has given the winter festival its modern name and ensured its survival into the modern age, although I'm sure it would have continued in some form anyway, with or without christianity's help. Christians should and will continue to celebrate their god at this time of year and good on 'em!

What I am saying however, is that the firm pagan roots of the festival also mean that non-christians can and do get just as much out of it, perhaps more, as they don't have guilt issues about having too much of a good time!

I may not be christian and I sometimes get irritated by the crass over-commercialisation of this time of year, but I really do love christmas!

Doug

PS while we are at it, I love all the traditional carols and christmas songs! Silent Night  for example, I find that one really magical as it captures the magic of the nativity story, which I love. You see, I don't feel personally threatened just because elements of other belief systems enter my radar.

[Sasuke]

Sorry... I dont mean to sound rude but christmas has nothing to do with paganism... Or christianity...
The ties with paganism you posted are just...... Ridiculous... No offence.

long ago some guy whent to some town and left sacks of money or objects hanging on the doors of every house every year around mid to late december, and sometimes he threw it down there chimneys... that is were christmas comes from...

"have a Merry PAGAN holiday!!!!" It is not a pagan holiday...
Any SIMILARITIES to pagan traditions does not make the holiday pagan, Nor does it make paganism the root of the traditions...

When people post claims like that, it's considered polite to post a link to some, you know, actual evidence in that direction.

If you have none, of course...well, that says a lot about your argument, sirrah.

[AstralBorn]

When people post claims like that, it's considered polite to post a link to some, you know, actual evidence in that direction.

I never post links to information as I have no need to prove myself to people I dont know, If you were a friend of mine or a family member I would usualy provide evidence to a claim I make...

I donot mean to offend pagans or christians in anyway...
Yes, Christians have added alot to make it what it is today
But thats all been ADDED to it, If it has anything to do with paganism... which I cannot see anything... It has been ADDED over time and is not the roots of the holiday.

I was brought up as a pagan... And no one I knew ever claimed there was anything pagan to do with christmas,

I just wanted to say that any similaritys to Paganism that might exist does not make the holiday a pagan one...

The root of Christmas has nothing to do with any religion, Simply the kindness of one man...

As I said before, I was brought up Pagan, Then I whent Christian and now I am not part of any religion,
Having been part of both religions I have alot of good friends in them, So I am not intending on offending either...

-AstralBorn

[Heather B.]

You could think of it as sharing information, rather than proving yourself.  If you have a different take on the topic, please share your sources, because apparently they're new to us.  I, for one, would like to know more.

Maybe "pre-Christian" would be a more accurate word than "pagan," since pagan has all kinds of modern meanings.  

In any case, the similarities between Christmas and Saturnalia are well documented and logical, and shouldn't be denied.  I find it less credible that a widespread holiday can be traced to one man's actions.

If by chance you are referring to St. Nicholas, he lived in the 3rd and 4th centuries, long after Saturnalia was established as a holiday.  He certainly helped inspire Christmas traditions, and has remained extremely beloved by many Christians of various denominations.  But wealthy Romans also bestowed charity during Saturnalia.  And from the Czech Republic, there is also King Wenceslas, whose reputed charity is preserved in a Christmas Carol.

So, there are a great variety of historical sources for Christmas tradition.  There are even many more than we've really touched on here, and there is a great wealth of Web sites (not to mention good old fashioned books!) on the history of Christmas.  But I think Saturnalia bears the closest, and most direct influence, given that the Roman Empire was such a great influence on culture and religion.

[Gandalf]

Exactly Mrs Murphy!

There is simply no way round the fact that Saturnalia remains the closest influence on our modern celebration of christmas, it is not just a 'similarity', it is a direct historical continuation of the pagan festival.

I'm sorry if Astralborn is challenged by the word 'pagan' but that is exactly what it was, and I don't see any valid reason to use any other word.
I think that some people may be getting mixed up with the modern religion of Wicca, which is neo-pagan. Also remember that neo-paganism itself is more of an umbrella term for many different belief systems, not just Wicca which is the most popular one. So you may not be aware of earlier pagan traditions and of Classical pagan religion.

The anglo-saxon (old english) 'Yule', basically their own end of year festival, is also a lesser but still important influence; from that you get the 12 days of christmas, although Saturnalia also ran for several days, typically 7, and of course from Yule you get the 'Yule log' and yuletide.

We're dealing with history here folks.

Doug

[thesickmoon]

I never post links to information as I have no need to prove myself to people I dont know, If you were a friend of mine or a family member I would usualy provide evidence to a claim I make...

Boy, you'd better start citin' some sources.

[James S]

Ok then, if we need to consider the term "Pagan" in this instance to be not politically correct, then how about we describe Saturnalia as being a polytheistic celebration.

Everyone happy now?

:eyetwitch:
James

[paint1]

Thank You, this pegan will do his best to be Very Merry! And I hope all of you will be also!

[Krashlanmar]

"Actually, Christmas was a movable feast and was celebrated many different times during the year. Not until Pope Julius I in the 4th century AD choose December 25th because it coincided with the Pagan rituals of Winter Solstice or "Return of the Sun". The purpose was to replace the Pagan celebration with the Christian one. "

Just was researching history of christmas, and thought it was relevent ^_^

[PirateBoB]

Wow, quite a lot of anti-christian sentiment around these forums these days

Realistically, the purpose of the original post seemed to be more to show that Christmas has it's origins in things other than Christianity, which is true.

However, the holiday means to you whatever you get out of it. To me, it's just another time of the year when my family gets together, except this time there's snow and we give stuff to each other ^_^

So, why do you celebrate this time of year?

~kakkarot

[Gandalf]

because its fun and a time to be with friends and family and to celebrate and share in that common bond of humanity.

for me, that is what christmas is REALLY about, for me that is the TRUE meaning of christmas, I don't dig the religious, christian stuff at all and that has no part in it for me, apart form the magic of the nativity story, which i love and consider one of my favourite fables.

But for those who do dig the christian, religious angle, I have no problem, each to their own, and i fully support them.  I don't see what you mean about 'lots of anti-christian stuff  here'.

Not that I've seen. We were only discussing the pagan origins of christmas and how present day pagans and other non christians can still celebrate this time of year as well as christians. the 'anti christian' stuff you see must be a projection of your own issues.

Doug

[CFTraveler]

I LOVE Christmas! It's the time of year where everything is decorated to look like a paradise for children.  It's the time of the year where gifts are given to the poor and the needy in the community.  There is an atmosphere of cheer- even at work you get the "office party" where everybody pretends to be friends with each other (yes, I understand there's some hypocrisy there, but it's HAPPY hyprocrisy.)  People look for other people to do things for, even if they don't know them.  There are colored lights everywhere!  People wear silly hats and sing songs that most people know. (regardless of whether it's "Jingle Bells" or the "Hannukkah Song (AS)" it's the time of the year all the holiday songs are out- humorous, religious, you name it!  It's the only time of the year where you get to have eggnog! I love eggnog! I even like fruitcake, if they leave out the raisins.  Growing up (in a dysfunctional family), it was the only time of the year when our house looked good and we were nice with each other.  So whatever holiday you celebrate,
                 HAVE A MERRY CHRISTMAS, HANNUKAH, YULE, SATURNALIA,
              KWANZA, New Year, and Mithra's Birthday.  And whatever else
                     I forgot.                

Sorry if it was obnoxious- I'm 48 going on 9!

[moogle_assassin]

happy what most people consider to be Jesus Christs birthday. yes that's right, i said Jesus Christ, I'm being politically incorrect.

[Gandalf]

happy what most people consider to be Jesus Christs birthday. yes that's right, i said Jesus Christ, I'm being politically incorrect.

Another fool who has missed the point...



Doug

[Sasuke]

happy what most people consider to be Jesus Christs birthday. yes that's right, i said Jesus Christ, I'm being politically incorrect.

It's...it's really okay if you want to say Jesus Christ. Really.

I don't know why everyone can't just state their opinion and what they believe and be done with it, without having to make a big shmozz out of it.

[MindFreak]

I dont understand why people believe it is Jesus' birthday. It doesnt say that anywhere in the bible.