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Author Topic: Sept. 11 is George Bush's fault  (Read 30727 times)
Rob
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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2002, 17:45:32 »

Ashfo your sequence of events is as I remember them. After the first plane struck there was ample time for jets to get into the air, who would at the very least have been prepared by then since they would have been informed about all the planes which were off course.

Kristen for an example of fighters intercepting a plane which has gone off course check out
http://www.1staf.tyndall.af.mil/defender/winter99/Feature2.htm
Communications problems become irrelevant in the middle of a crisis like 9/11. By the time the first plane had hit the entire airbase would have known what they needed to do - intercept and other planes which were off course. And they had shed loads of time to do this.

oops my bad not secretary of state, I meant the Vice President Cheney. For a link of what I was talking about see:
http://www.tenc.net/indict/indict-2.htm

Wasn't there that other little coincidence that a couple of weeks before the WTC changed their insurance to cover for terrorist attacks? How odd...

Of course, please feel free to tear down my arguments, I don't come here to have everyone agree with me! hehe

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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2002, 18:15:10 »

I don´t know if I should write this- because I have not really read all posts onthe topic- but from a fast overlook it seems that most americans on the forum seem to be more pro the american side and most none americans seem to whant to put the blame a bit on the anmericans.. can this be a coincidence? but as I said- I havn´t had time to read the posts really yet...

Personally I understand that US foregin poletics raises anger... but then agina ALL powerfull poleticians seem to be a-holes, no matter where they come from. And at least america defends the democratic ideas.. even thoug its foregin poleyics seem to be more about mony then anything else..

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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2002, 18:15:10 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Frank
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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2002, 18:48:40 »



Americans have short memories.

They forget it was THEIR government who trained and armed Osama Bin Laden's malitia to the teeth just a few years ago.  

Tiger bit back I fear.

Yours,
Frank


 
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ralphm
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« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2002, 18:55:30 »

i am from the usa and i think something fishy is going on. at the very least our government is guilty of supporting and poividing terrorists when it is in our supposed best interest.  unfortunately there is no balance of powers in the world-bush and company decide who is guilty and decide what the punishment will be, then bribe and kisses the butt of other leaders of  other countries so they play along.

 
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« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2002, 03:32:06 »

Bah
You non Americans and your conspiracy theories!
Haha Just kidding.  I admit the US is no innocent little...err...country..
But seriously...what country is? Or what country would be with so much power?
(Not that thats an insult on other countries power..I just mean realistically the US does have a lot of power and control over the world economy and other such things and if another country were in this position would they really be perfect?)

I dont agree with dishonesty or corruption, but damn...Its just human-(politician) nature.
I think many other countries get away with corrupt activities because the US is actually under a more watchful eye (IE every country that has any beef or negative feelings towards us)

It really surprises me how much propaganda is spread about the Us.  When I went to britian for a vacation...everybody I spoke to looked at me in horror (when I said i was from the US) and said to me something along the lines of "oh god how could you live in such a violent place"  and Id be like violent? and theyd be like "with all the murders and mugging and shootings! "  Wow..I cant believe how many people reacted in this way.  Sure there is bad areas ....but like...thats like so little of the country.  Watching the news it seemed like they reported more on crime in the US then news in their own country!!!! I couldnt believe how obvious the propaganda was...  I have to say... the food sucks over there! boiled potatos and grilled cheese sandwhichs!  Even the fast food chains tasted really bad.  I am spoiled by American food.  Luckily there is so many fat americans that it creates a huge business for food. hahaha

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« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2002, 03:32:06 »



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Ashfo
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« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2002, 04:21:07 »

Hah!

American food tastes good?

Your butter tastes like fat, my dear friend..

You haven't experienced true fresh meat and dairy products till you come to the land of the Z!


- Ashfo

 
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Grenade01
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« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2002, 05:27:47 »

Our butter tastes like fat?! Whoa I think you got the wrong country.
Our butter tastes like chemicals and water!!!
We dont have real dairy.  LoL
No I have to admit..When I was in England the dairy was quite good, although Im not used to eating such fatty dairy, and it would make me a bit sick.  

As far as the meat goes..Ive had some pretty good meat !!! HAhah

Hey speaking of poultry, did you see the genetically altered featherless chicken thats been getting all the animal rights attention? Lol that thing looks funny as hell.

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« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2002, 11:03:32 »

Well, world I agree with just about everything you might say, especially about Bush corruption based King George W. coo in Florida. But I would, I'm the the Green Party. Brave new world huh? First of all Gore won and Ralph Nader is right. There are a lot of Americans not fooled by the Corporate run government, IMF,  WTO, GATT, NAFDA etc. Pretty simple. Not easy to change. Like will the real Nazis minded people please stand up? I don't think we'll see that:-)

Remember, there we plenty of other people of other nations in the Twin Towers, too. It's not like this group are freedom defenders or something. They are the suffering and the hurt and should have had some method of being linked to some of that oil money and ability to rebuild on solid footing in that area without having to resort to drug traffic, child slvery, being body bombers, etc..You know. I don't have to tell you. Question: Where did all that oil money go? Trash for the rich as usual. Hmmmm solar? did I hear solar and wind power for Europe owned by the citizens of Afganistan? "We have a lot more solutions than problems." nader  Hey, I got my opinions here Dems and Reps:-)

Jay Jay
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Kristen
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« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2002, 18:05:38 »

Hi All -

To Ashfo and others  - I'm not obviously anything.  What I wrote was that it was pure bunk that those planes would have been or could have been shot down (especially not over metropolitan areas) given the information that was available when it was available and the policy as it stood.  I also wrote that miliary missions are not always guided by adequate communication and intelligence for the purpose at hand - thus, mistakes are made. This is all in context of the concrete events of  9/11 and nothing else.   I didn't say anything about how I felt about my country or make any judgements as to my government's or military's actions abroad.

What I see as an American interacting with other Americans,  is extreme cinicism and distrust of government - in fact our culture is permeated with cinicism toward government, military, and business and institutions in general... the more beaurocratic the institution is, the more Americans are suspicious and fed up with it.  The American media make it their job to rake muck as it were where-ever they can find it, and that investigational focus whether based in fact or not dominates the news and papers.   Conspiracy theory message boards and other avenues of communication like radio and talk shows abound with second-guessing armchair political analysts often with no experience, sometimes with experience on some level or another, in the government, the military, and so on.  Discussions around the office copier and at the local coffee store are full of "threads" just like this one.  

And by the way - before anyone makes any kind of sweeping generalizations about what Americans know or what they are, I'd appreciate it if that person did some more open minded research of their own.  There are no typical people.  If someone looks like a stereotype to an observer - the observer is not looking closely enough.

KB






 
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Frank
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« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2002, 07:18:11 »

quote:
Originally posted by Kristen:
Hi All -

And by the way - before anyone makes any kind of sweeping generalizations about what Americans know or what they are, I'd appreciate it if that person did some more open minded research of their own.  There are no typical people.  If someone looks like a stereotype to an observer - the observer is not looking closely enough.

KB



It is an unfortunate fact that Americans are generally disliked the world over. Problem is, much of America doesn't realise that. Perhaps it would help if, rather than accusing others of being closed-minded, you would strive to become more open-minded yourselves.

I remember watching the broadcasts after the towers went down and the general consensus, amongst the populace, was utter confusion as to why anyone could depise Americans SO much that they would want to do such a thing; which many members of the European intelligentsia also find most confusing, as it's our general consensus that you finally got what has been coming to you for some time.

Yours,
Frank




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Joe
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« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2002, 08:51:15 »

Ashfo - glad you liked the article. Mark Elsis has done some professional research, and although I still have serious objections to some of his claims, I also agree that there are some honest questions that need answering. Nonetheless, a quality site (got all the CT's approval on these boards, Inguma included http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>)

You guys should also check out http://www.fpa.org, which is an excellent source of foreign politics commentary, without the CT spin. Plus http://www.disinfo.com for some good CT research/theories.

Sadly, the thread is looking less and less like a debate - as for Frank's comment on America "getting what was coming to them", let me say that that has to be one of the most distasteful remarks on these boards yet, and if I happened to be American, I'd be using far more inflamatory words than that. The suggestion that large-scale civillian murder in any context is deserved, is abhorent. As for the integrity of European foreign policy - the notion's laughable! Invoking Article 5 means nothing when a gaggle of bickering nations constantly vaccilate over taking strong action of any kind, even against criminal dictatorships like Iraq. Especially when it's common knowledge that both France and Russia have been selling arms to Saddam for years!!!  I can't think of any other region in the world that lacks more economic and political leadership that the EZ right now. And as for Europe's *alleged* distate for Americans, you might want to wake up to the same sentiments about Europeans - particularly the British and French.
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Mobius
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« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2002, 09:50:55 »

G,day all

Hey Daniel,you must think you've started your own little world war in here,with everyone having their own opinion on how things are.Lucky it is only the chat component of this site & lucky it's somewhat a peaceful forum here,but it's probably good we all get our ideas out there so that ourselves & others might learn more through others experiences & the links they might post.

Check out this sites forum,theres a whole forum just on September 11 & check out the post on "Breaking News",an example of how the wording of a post or just the words Bush, develops into 11 pages of arguements & some good links,but it's just good to see how other people think,people who are not so spiritually involved.

http://www.guerrillanews.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/postlist.pl?Cat=&Board=state

if that doesn't work go to
 http://www.guerrillanews.com/

Joe I'm not sure how much faith you put into Associated Press,but while they are supposedly non profit,their journalists are made up of the same ones in the mainstream papers,it's just that they are all getting together under one roof for one purpose.I read NEXUS magazine & sure they have some pretty far out topics & things that mainstream media & universities wouldn't exactly reference,but most of the articles are outside general public exposure. Most topics  that has been posted in here at Astral pulse are not exactly mainstream beliefs but are written about in NEXUS as well as are most of the OBE 'ers & R.Ver's stories that don't make it through mainstream media.I personally don't fully trust them,the same as any other media  resources, I believe everyone needs to cross check at least 3 sites with opposing views & then make my own decision.

Also on the subject of short selling,I didn't see the article in NEXUS on the short selling, I'll have a look around for it,but I thought the method of short selling involved speculating that a particular stocks price will fall,so me for example would ring my stock broker (if I had one,which I don't,what a waste) & ask to short sell a particular stock at a high price,he borrows the shares of a third party who isn't likely to sell soon,sells them to you with his commission,then when the stock falls in price you sell it back when you think it's fallen far enough & take the profit difference between the initial stock price & it's new price,paying tax on the sale & a commision to the broker,the third party only a problem if they want to liquidate their stocks,then the loan must be repaid.

Yes Kristen,there are a lot of conspiracy theorists out there,alot without experience,but if you keep an eye on them you pick up a fact or good lead every now & then,I think it's important to not just read mainstream media & accept what they & universities say is first class info or the right one to be watching.

I don't believe any of us have the supreme access to the right info & so,we can only read as many different opinions as we can & just don't commit to one view until more facts present themselves.We all have the duty to investigate for ouselves the evidence being presented & the possibility of bias.

Peace all & good journeys

 
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Joe
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« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2002, 11:15:39 »

G'day Mobius,

RE: AP - they're a news brokerage ("wholesaler") that a lot of the large media houses use - BBC, CNN, many newspapers, etc. They typically have reporters on the ground earlier than most others - and reported much of 9/11 as it broke. Yes, they are established journalists like everyone else, not sure of non-profit though!?

The NEXUS article was the one Ashfo posted, but the short-selling bit was only one example in their piece. You're spot on with short-selling method, although that method is typically only for very short time frames (1 day or so). A put option is the usual method for punting on stock devaluation.

And I sincerely agree with your last point. In a great debate, there is a dearth of evidence and good arguments on both sides. As you say, the most we can do is make our best judgement, and we all assess things differently. However, I feel strongly that there should never be room allowed for inflammatory or insulting material.

All the best mate! http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

Joe
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« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2002, 14:28:45 »

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>Mobius- I am always glad to let people voice their opinions...

The fact of the whole Sept 11 matter is complicated, but at the same time I do believe that it all comes down to good and evil.  Of course the US is not innocent, every country commits horrible transgressions behind closed doors and these acts are fueled by hate and self-interest.  

What happened on Sept 11, however, cannot be justified by anyone who is not a murderer or a liar.  The bottom line is this: even if the US were completely honest and good, ie. they didn't start/fund coup's, didn't meddle in the affiars of other countries, etc. someone or some group somewhere would still come over and do something horrible because of pride, greed, hate, jelousy, etc.  

I am at work or I would write more....until next time....

love to all!
-D.T.

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Frank
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« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2002, 15:01:54 »

I can't see what your fuss is about, Joe.

Surely, common sense tells you that if you continue to play with fire, and *repeatedly* ignore the warnings, one day you are going to get burnt in a *big* way.

I read in the newspapers, just this morning, that the UK will almost certainly suffer reprisals for their US support. Bombings in London, perhaps? Oh well, us lot living in and around London are kinda used to bombs blowing up office blocks, and so forth. The IRA have been doing that, on and off, for years!

IRA activities were tightly surpressed in this country by our strict Anti-Terrorism laws. So, what they did was, present themselves to the good old US of A as "freedom fighters".

They ran US-based funding rallies and all that jazz. Then, using the USD they raised, they bought Semtex explosives in Libya and used it to launch their bombing campaign on the British and Irish mainland. In the process, hundreds of innocent lives were lost, together with billions of pounds worth of damage to property.

The thought has long since been with me that if the US are indulging in such double-dealings with their (so called) allies, then God knows what they get up to in the 3rd world countries.

Remember, you cannot ignore the Piper's song... that day, WTC just happened to be heading the bill.  

Yours,
Frank



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« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2002, 16:36:27 »

Speaking about foods, have the ´Swedish´ (discovered here like a month ago, at first it said it would cause MAJOR eating habits throughout ALL of the world, but it doesn´t seem to have up here so why abroad?) alarm reached where ever you are all from, about a chemical named Acrylamid (at least here it is named that) being created when you heaten up carbohydrates to very high temperatures...    so briefly, apparently, for example french fries & potatoe snacks (thsoe two are said to be the worst) are said to be VERY dangerous - causing all sorts of disturbances like cancer etc., because of the potatoe (carbohydrates) in these products are being heated up to a very high degree.....    Cooked products (pasta, potatoes etc) wasn´t said to be dangerous, but it was a big deal up here the first few days, then it kinda faded...  but clearly, potatoes being fried, baked or whatever IS dangerous, so something for you to consider and perhaps look up if you haven´t heard about...   I know, alarms come all the time and most doesn´t care anymore, but this one was out of the ordinary...
   Heard about it eh´?


Grenade01; "Hey speaking of poultry, did you see the genetically altered featherless chicken thats been getting all the animal rights attention? Lol that thing looks funny as hell."
    What do you mean, funny as hell??´   Ain´t following you on that one.....
      If I got hold of the responsible for crimes like that, one on one in a remote place, well...  let me out it this way, perhaps I would close my eyes before the fact that their Karma would make sure justice being done in the future....


Butter - it is well known that Sweden has the best butter, that´s me being patriotic Wink      Not that I understand why anyone would eat butter volountary, don´t we get enough fat in our system??´

     Be well amigos //Qui-Gon




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distant bell
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« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2002, 16:47:08 »

Hi Richard! I heard about the acrylamid thing- the first thing that came to my mind was potatoe chips.. so I whent down to ICA and bought a bag of Estrella souercream and onin... mmmm

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Kristen
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« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2002, 22:13:38 »

Frank -

Americans are closeminded?  What specific behavior are you referring to?  Do you have any concrete examples you can site about what an American has done that is by definition closeminded and that then can be generalized to the entire population?  If you can, then I'll find an example of that same or similar behavior from a person of another country.  Are you game?

By the way - I think it might be worthwhile to distinguish between a nation's populace and its government and/or its military - for any nation. The populace of any nation may not necessarily have signed off on what its government, its military or what its business institutions do. Thus, to say "you Americans" are thus and so, (using a national entity's actions abroad)  is to behave as ignorantly as someone who says "you Arabs" are thus and so, or all "you Nigerians" are thus and so for example.

I would also venture a guess that you may not have studied your own country's history or European history, or the history of the Ottoman empire, or that of China, or Japan, or Egypt..... and so on and so forth.  If you have studied enough world history it seems to me you might be conveniently not seeing some distinct and repeating patterns of empire building that cut across nations, cultures, and time.  

That is that hust about every government of every nation with a significant enough economic/military power base - now and throughout history - exploits and manipulates other nations and even its own populace, or attempts to.  Your government  does it too - albeit with less power than it used to, but it does.  This is not a value judgement or an endorsement by the way.

Now - I say to anyone - if you're not going to like an individual person, or if you're going to be resentful for some reason - instead of repeating vaguely understood nationalistic dogma, why not be accurate and relevant - make your dislike about a specific behavior or character trait that you have had occasion to actually witness or experience.  If you do this, it might be worthwhile to ask yourself if this behavior or trait is human rather than American or Arab or Christian or Muslim or whatever (i.e...you might be capable of it too)....  if you still want to be incensed and resentful then at least you are trying to be somewhat intelligent about it.

In any event, the bottom line for me is that American citizens did not deserve 9/11 any more than the citizens of Kuwait deserved being invaded by citizens of Iraq; or , deserve it more than any nation so troubled deserved being conquered by the British, or than Pakistani citizens deserve to be fired upon by Indian citizens, or that the Vietnemese deserve having thier country occupied by the French....  do you get it Frank?

Does anyone get it?

KB

 
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« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2002, 10:44:23 »

Well, it's been awhile since I've posted on this ever-growing and changing thread.

Firstly, to whoever it was that made such a disrespectful and untasteful comment stating that Sweden has the best butter... well, how can that be so when NZ is greater at everything than anyone else in the world? Patriotism aside, of course..

Kristen.. my first post wasn't meant to anger you, I was just making a generalization that most Americans are more patriotic and close-minded than most other nationalities... which of course you refute Smiley

quote:
Originally posted by Kristen:
Frank -

Americans are closeminded?  What specific behavior are you referring to?  Do you have any concrete examples you can site about what an American has done that is by definition closeminded and that then can be generalized to the entire population?  If you can, then I'll find an example of that same or similar behavior from a person of another country.  Are you game?


That logic is rather flawed as you could say Swiss butter is bad (hehe) because one cow died prematurely. My generalizations are based on much more than one example - they are based on every single American I have ever met. And I agree, generalizations they are, as a small percentage of Americans have a very open mind and think for themselves, but the larger portion of the population doesn't. You can say it's all very well that I have only ever met perhaps several hundred Americans and therefore have no right to generalize the entire population, but that doesn't fit. Becuase every other person I know who has had dealings with Americans (except Americans of course) feels exactly the same way as I do, and all those I have talked to have talked to others who feel exactly the same way. It's like "global knowledge". I might also add that it's ironic how you are arguing against your countries own close-mindedness by refusing to accept whatever we say Tongue

quote:
Originally posted by Kristen:
In any event, the bottom line for me is that American citizens did not deserve 9/11 any more than the citizens of Kuwait deserved being invaded by citizens of Iraq; or , deserve it more than any nation so troubled deserved being conquered by the British, or than Pakistani citizens deserve to be fired upon by Indian citizens, or that the Vietnemese deserve having thier country occupied by the French....  do you get it Frank?


I entirely agree that the general American citizen doesn't deserve this, but to provide an exaggerated example for you I'd point out that the Nazis didn't take charge without the average Germans support. The whole issue is rather moot anyway as the attacks were perpetrated by someone inside the US.


I'm not going to reply to any pro-American/anti-American posts as I can quickly see this degrading into something rather disgusting Tongue

- Ashfo

 
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Frank
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« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2002, 10:49:38 »

Okay, Kristen, let me get this straight.

So if what you say is true: I am to believe that the American people repeatedly continue to democratically elect a government that repeatedly continues to act contra to the needs and wishes of the majority who elected them?

I think not somehow.

Moreover, I rather think it is not so much a matter of, as you state, conveniently "not" seeing distinct and repeating patterns of empire building that cut across nations, cultures, and time.

The fact of the matter is: ordinary citizens ARE beginning to see such things. Not only that, we are crying enough!

Follow virtually all trails of world terrorism and you will find US government funding somewhere in the recent past.

Do I get it, Frank? Yes, I get it only too well: what you call "foreign policy" a large percentage of the rest of the world calls... American Imperialism.

But please don't get me wrong. You speak about my being "resentful" and so forth. No, not in the slightest. Such a thing has not one jot of emotional effect on me. I am merely a lifelong observer, doubly fascinated by the sheer irony of it all.
 
Funny how you should mention about Kuwait and Iraq.

You will no doubt remember the time when the US and Saddam Hussein were the best of friends. Well, you should do as it was around a billion of *your* tax dollars that funded, trained and armed Saddam Hussein to the teeth in the 1980's. In the United States' war (err, sorry, Saddam Hussein's war) with Iran.

However, it was only when Saddam Hussein, using basically the same American-funded army that he had previously used to demolish Iran, invaded Kuwait (thus threatening American petroleum supplies) that Bush snr. suddenly began a rhetoric of hate against Saddam.

A rhetoric fuelled primarily by American corporate greed.

But Saddam Hussein is just one of the *many* dictatorships the US has trained, armed and supported.

Dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia (humungeous oil reserves), Kuwait (big oil reserves) Indonesia (vast oil, gas and timber reserves together with vast supplies of all kinds of mineral resources) and Zaire (key country in the *vast* mineral-rich region of central Africa). To name but a few.

To any normal, right-thinking person, this must *surely* beg the question: How come the USA always seems to be involved in arming, training and funding the biggest terrorists of the decade?

Answer: It's a basic 1, 2, 3 strategy...

1) They fund, train and arm the dictatorship.

2) The dictatorship keeps the people's voices surpressed.

3) American corporations then mine the countries of their oil, gas and mineral wealth for a pittance of what it should truly cost.

Fact is, you've been playing this strategy for around 50 years. A strategy that has made America the richest, most powerful country in the world.

However, in your wake is the devastation caused by the loss of millions and millions of lives. Together with the countless billions of dollars worth of damage to property. Not only that, there are the tens of millions of people that have been (and currently are) subject to a life of crippling poverty and disease.

As such, slowly but surely, Americans are being made welcome in fewer and fewer countries in the world. Fact is, hatred of America, and to a certain extent their allies (notably Britain) increases significantly, year by year.

To a passive observer, such as myself, It was only a matter of time before such mass hatred would boil over and begin to fuel revenge-based attacks. The warning signs have been ever so clear. Yet, for the most part, they are either not seen (or are simply ignored) by the American populace.

Whether America "deserved" to suffer the devasting effects of September the 11th is not for me to fathom. But, as I say, if you continue to play with fire, and continue to ignore the warnings, one day you will get burnt.

Think of the horror as those buildings were hit: the panic; the fright; the fear; the sheer sense of dread; the knowing that you are going to die; the searing pain of being burnt alive; the crippling loss of life; the years of sorrow; families torn apart; all those loved ones that will never be seen again.

All that horror, in such a small space of time!

And only about two cruise-missiles worth. The very same missiles your military fires in their hundreds at other people's buildings, in other people's countries. What's that? You only fire them at military targets? Hmm, funny how I remember bunkers full of women and children blown to pieces in Bagdhad; the civilian train in Belgrade; oh and the Chinese embassy that got demolished, to name but a few.  

The thought did cross my mind, what these people may have been trying to graphically demonstrate, is exactly what it is like for *you* to be on the receiving end for a change... rather than them.

Or maybe they were trying to give you a real-life example of the sheer extent of the suffering *millions* of people in the 3rd world have to endure, often on a daily basis.

Is the supply of cheap gasoline really worth all those lives?

Yours,
Frank




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steveb
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« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2002, 11:39:09 »

Greetings all, One thing to say,  thank God I live in the land down under

Regards  Steve

 
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Grenade01
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« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2002, 20:13:24 »

How can you say American corporate greed?  All governments essentially contain corporate greed.  A government is pretty much set up to protect the rights of its own people, and to fuel its economy so that it can come out ahead of other countries.  It's like a giant game of monopoly, and whether you want to admit it or not, nearly every government in the world plays the game.  If you dont admit that, then you are a hypocrit in every sense of the word.  We live in a crappy world where survival of the fittest prevails, and even though it would be nice if it were otherwise, this is the way it is.  I hate the fact that my country has capitalized on other people to gain its power and authority, but you cant put someone in such huge shoes, and tell them not to step on anyone elses toes.  People are corrupt. Its human nature and no matter whos government it is, its going to be like this if your in these positions.  I probably sound like a very ignorant, uncaring person when I say this, but I assure you I am not.  I love everybody equally, and I understand and forgive anyone who might hate me or have negative emotions towards me because I live in America.  Most Americans either don't agree with, or don't even understand half the stuff that goes on in politics. (Me included to some extent)  But you cant make things so black and white and say they did this so they are bad or we did this so that makes us good, because there is always a context to which anything is done. Some decisions are bad, others are a gamble that dont turn out in our favor, but most of us just want the same things you want.  We just want to earn our money so that we can support our families, and live life.  It's perverse to say that anyone would deserve to die, or that anyone would be even halfway just in making an offensive decision which would harm other people (US included).


Qui-Gon Jinn: I do think that whoever made that featherless chicken was pretty messed up, and I dont condone it at all...But you got to admit, it does look funny.  smiley  Sorry if I came across the wrong way though, because I'm all for animal rights and I don't want to make a joke out of something like that either.




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ralphm
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« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2002, 21:11:29 »

i is just because of the complexities of the world and who does what for what reason that i really focus on my own spiritual search. i try to stay informed but i realize there is a lot of manipulation going on. as the dali lama says- i dedicate the fruits of my spiritual practices for the enlightenment of all

 
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In the world in general and in this nation
May not even the names disease, famine, war, and suffering be heard.
May virtuous qualities, merit, and prosperity greatly increase
And may continuous good fortune and subline well-being perfectly arise.
Kristen
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« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2002, 22:17:17 »

Hi Steve -

 HA... you lucky guy.  

Hey Ashfo-

You might change your mind about the closemindedness thing if you came to the US for a prolonged visit.... there are an awful lot of different kinds of folks here from as many races and cultures as there are races and cultures, all with different political views and varying degrees of support of lack of it, for the government, or the "American way," or whatever,  who are ready, willing, and able  to say just exactly what they think, privately or publically, whether the government or anyone else would agree with it or not. Some of the most strident voices currently opposing the Bush administration for example, are in government - as has always been the nature of our system.  Also, I suppose you realize that world-wide anti-American sentiment occurs because of the dynamics of power?  I would suggest that if it were Sweden for example that was playing the world field to the extent that America does, that Sweden might be resented the world over, and that if a Swedish citizen had opportunity to be confronted and burdoned with such a weightily preloaded dynamic that they might also take a defensive stance.   Also, please understand that my argument here is that 9/11 was not just, as anything anywhere of such a nature is not just; no matter by what country its instigated; and,  that Americans are not blind to what their government does, at least if they can spare some space in their minds for the content on the BBC or CNN and so forth.   As is true with any population, there are degrees of intelligence, education, and interest in world events.  Your theory about from where the attacks were instigated is just a theory, (albeit quite interesting) and comparing the American populace to the German populace during the Nazi's regime is really  despicable.

Frank -You have not comprehended my intent in what I wrote.   Everything you've cited is commonly available through media outlets; and, as I said, every government in the world who can, does the same thing, however many try to hide that fact with more success.  I don't appreciate your use of "you" when (I assume) you refer to America in general, just as I assume some poor bloke from Britian may not appreciate being called to the carpet for the actions of the IRA.

It seems to me that both of you may be more interested in painting me with a bloody brush instead of really listening to what I'm saying.  I'm not going to play straw man, or scapegoat apologist.  Its useless.

 
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Ashfo
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« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2002, 23:53:15 »

Heh, well... couldn't resist replying Tongue

I used Nazi Germany as an exaggerated example of how a corrupt/unjust government needs the support of the average citizen to exist, not to make comparisons between Nazi Germany and the USA.

I just think the evidence stands for itself. If Americans weren't close-minded they would see that the evidence (which I might add is freely available) points directly to their own Government regarding Sep 11. But they don't want to think this. They are happy, they dont want change. If on the otherhand the majority were open-minded they would see the injustices their nation has performed and the people would do something.

I partly agree with you that the "superpower" will be disliked simply because of their position, but in the USAs case it is more than that. It is hated because of the sickly greed it displays in desire for an unneeded commodity - Oil.

quote:

Rise, Rise
Corruption Undisguised
Rise, Rise

Confronting With Our Minds
Destroying All The Lies
Unmasked By Purity




- Ashfo

 
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