Who can you trust in the astral as a true source of real knowledge?

[Szaxx]

I am trying to understand that. Do you mean at first it's all about survival but then as you learn how things work and are well adjusted then you are able to learn more?

Think about your knowledge at 5 years old. Until you've lived longer and learned, the importance of being an individual with your inherent developing personality is incomprehensible. At 50 however what you have become isn't likely to change much. The personality you possess has grounded itself and your reactions are then predictable by those who know you. A life changing event of great proportions is excluded obviously.
At 5, you want to learn how things work and have little capability of doing much.
At 50, if you can't do things its likely you never will.
The difference is you've learned a great deal and can utilise this knowledge to your advantage.

[Xanth]

I want to know more about this other physical like reality you were at. Were you able to make things appear and disappear? Or any other supernatural type things? Do you believe that you were in this physical dimension or some place like this physical dimension but probably not this dimension?

Let me see, I've had roughly a dozen or more separate projection experiences where I've "compared" the reality I was experiencing to what I know about the physical reality.  Mostly tests using my five senses.  Taste, touch, sight, hearing, and smelling the environment around me.  They all pass as being "100% physical" in comparison.  It's probably worth noting that they were all "Earth-type" realities, but I feel that's more because of my logical nature than anything else.  That's how I perceive and interpret my experiences.

I can extrapolate from them that any experience I have had where I DON'T test is probably the same.

The other things you list above are meaningless secondary properties of an experience.

Honestly, what I can tell you is that I recognized I was experiencing a reality which wasn't this physical reality.  That's all I can tell you about "where" I was.

BTW I am not questioning too much that it's possible that one can materialize in this physical dimension since I've heard it can be done with what I believe to be pretty credible people, like Howard Storm talked about his experience with a materialized of an angel/higher being of some sort in his book. But I generally view it as something that only very highly evolved spiritual beings can do.

Thoughts?

I question what people call the "RTZ" all the time.  It's not logical to me that it exists as objectively as most people seem to think it does.
Once you have an experience like that and even the most basic "reality fluctuation" happens... it throws the entire experience into debate.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Sorry, that should probably be "There's only perception / point of view"... as I view them, in this context, as the same thing.  An example is when you test how "physical" a supposed "non-physical reality" is.  When you're experiencing it, it's every bit as physical as this physical reality is.  Yet, while you're there experiencing it, this physical reality then feels like a non-physical reality.  It's all in relative to where you are and what you're experiencing... or: perception / point of view. 

In going back to your original post, I agree. So when I say non-physical and physical I realize that they are just different points of view, different types of perception.

So when I say "I have found what I believe to be a plausible link between the physical the non-physical NP." I realize that it's just another point of view. But focusing and getting to the physical through materializations is whole another ball game. The most consistent way of focusing into this reality and experiencing it seems to be through reincarnation. That's not to say that we can't experience what seems to be physical type realities outside of what we know as earth.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

And have you ever met a person like this? How would you know them from a person who only seemed to be enlightened? If you are not enlightened yourself, how do you know that others have ever been, rather than have merely claimed to have been, or else had others posthumously claim that of them? It seems like a "takes one to know one" situation, and if that is true, how do we know it is a real thing if we aren't enlightend ourselves?

Even the Dalai Lama says he isn't enlightened, yet he and many others have gotten glimpses of enlightenment. Whether it's going on a meditation retreat for a week or two or spending 10,000 hours meditating there are people that know the effects of meditation. In other words you don't have to be fully enlightened to know that your on the right track once you have meditated quite a bit. So perhaps we don't have a lot of people who are truly enlightened but there are many that have meditated for 5,000 and less and can tell you how it effects them. So perhaps we don't have many enlightened masters but we do have many people that have walked gotten pretty far down that path to enlightenment and tasted it's fruits (though not in full) and are witnesses to it's transformative power. hours of meditation and it's effects. We even have science now that is starting to back up what meditation is all about from monks. The Dalai Lama has encouraged and had many monks donate their time to study meditation which isn't necessarily fun when they have to stick a probe up your butt in order to get an accurate body temperature. This is why I believe it's totally plausible that one could eventually reach the peak of the meditation experience and gain enlightenment or Nirvana. Even those that have taken massive doses of psychedelics have reached the same exact place that those that have reached through meditation. It's a place of complete nothingness yet at the same time pure consciousness, and pure source. It's the heart of all existence. There is no thing there, since one is absolved into their source. This experience transcends many religions. It's not hard to miss it when you see it, since whether it was achieved through meditation or psychedelics, it's literally the same exact experience word for word almost. Why mention all that? Well  IMO because there is a link between psychedelics and meditation which for many seem at odds only helps solidify the idea of enlightenment being plausible. Even astral projection in some way also helps support meditation and the idea of enlightenment indirectly, though not as much as psychedelics IMO.

As far as how would I know an enlightened one if I am not enlightened? Well there's no way to truly know for certain. But what I can say is that from reading peoples testimonies some of whom aren't selling any books or products that there seems like a fundamental shift within ones psyche that occurs when they meditate quite a lot and consistently, and it wouldn't even have to be at the height of the meditation experience. And many of people have experienced this shift. So logically if one continues on this path the only logical next step in this series has got to lead to some higher state of being, enlightenment being at the top of the end of the spectrum. It's not like we are talking about an experience within Christianity that is contingent on God to intervene and make a change. With meditation anyone can experience it. I have meditated much more than the average person and I have gotten a glimpse of this glory myself. So even I have had a small taste of what is available to everyone.

It's only by looking at many peoples experiences and comparing and contrasting it to other spiritual technologies does one come to a grander understanding of what is really going on. I totally didn't mean to get into all that, but I hope that explains your question.  

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Oh and then this.

At what point will you say to yourself, "I am really seeing things as they truly are"? How would you know that you were not mistaken about something, or self-deceived?

Well the sign posts would be there along the path. So one of the effects is that the mind becomes still. And I find it a little ironic that your name is stillwater. But yeah, so the other things would be like a sense of fullness, one will get visions, but they should be let go of. Love will start to permeate their minds, creativity will become more natural, attention will become easier. These are all sign posts that one is making progress on the path to enlightenment.

[Stillwater]

As far as how would I know an enlightened one if I am not enlightened? Well there's no way to truly know for certain. But what I can say is that from reading peoples testimonies some of whom aren't selling any books or products that there seems like a fundamental shift within ones psyche that occurs when they meditate quite a lot and consistently, and it wouldn't even have to be at the height of the meditation experience. And many of people have experienced this shift. So logically if one continues on this path the only logical next step in this series has got to lead to some higher state of being, enlightenment being at the top of the end of the spectrum. It's not like we are talking about an experience within Christianity that is contingent on God to intervene and make a change. With meditation anyone can experience it. I have meditated much more than the average person and I have gotten a glimpse of this glory myself. So even I have had a small taste of what is available to everyone.

The questions are more rhetorical than anything. The common theme I am getting at, is that this becomes a question of faith. You must have faith that enlightenment is a real thing, and that it has value, in order to pursue it. Why must you have faith? Because you can't know if you have not experienced it yourself. You cannot surmise that it exists from your own experiences. You cannot trust other's accounts of it.

I believe faith is a dangerous thing. Faith by nature means to believe something that you don't know or have proof of.

And there are so many things that we can know. We can inductively know that it is wrong to cause harm to others if it can be avoided. As you say, we can know that meditation produces positive changes in moderate practitioners, because we can conduct studies that clearly demonstrate this.

I find a lot of value in reading through the older texts. They can suggest pathways that few people consider today. But when there are so many things that we can know for sure, so many ways we can spend our time helping others and ourself, faith seems like an enemy that can lead us astray. People do not recognize it for the true danger it really is. Why spend your time chasing after a concept that comes to you in Sanskrit scrolls? Something that is claimed to be inaccessible in even an entire human lifetime? Seems like a huge gamble for a fabled pay-off.

My abstract friends in this life have been compassion, reason and evidence. Why not just commit yourself to loving others and to developing the self-discipline to know the truth and discard falsehoods and presumptions? Enlightenment is a purported, theoretical good. There are known real goods all around, and well in reach, and they take a month, or a year, not 40 lifetimes!

And I find it a little ironic that your name is stillwater.

Street that I lived on for a while. An obscure joke really 

[no_leaf_clover]

You must take the ultimate responsibility in who you trust and always be prepared to accept that you were wrong.  If you trust someone you are giving at least some responsibility onto them to guide you.  Be aware of how much of your power you give away to others to tell you what reality is like or what it is not like.

+1 to the idea that enlightenment comes in glimpses.  I followed some schools of enlightenment in its various forms (Zen, Taoism, 8-fold path Buddhism, Hinduism), and the best texts and teachers I ever found all made it clear that all levels of attainment when it comes to "enlightenment" are arbitrary and that life always goes on and consciousness is always still exploring and learning new things.  There is nothing that says, "The End: You made it! It really was all an illusion after all. Game over."  Well, not unless you make that reality for yourself in a lucid dream or trip or something, but then still life goes on.  :p

Also, why do people even want to become enlightened?  To better bear suffering?  For power?  Child-like curiosity?  Out of love for God/source/the universe?  To get an advantage over the neighbors?  Sometimes it's a very abstract thing that we're looking for, but I think if we can refine what it is exactly that we are looking for, it might help us to find it.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I'll reply tomorrow.

[Szaxx]

Materialisations are more common than you seem to know, Google Apport.

[Thread Killer]

"I am really seeing things as they truly are"?
  ...as through a glass darkly...

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

Stillwater and no_leaf_clover if you want me to reply I will. I know this thread is starting to die out.

[Stillwater]

Up to you!

Reply if you feel it is meaningful for you to do so, and you think it would benefit others or further the discussion

[Rakkso]

While semi aware (barely remembering experience) or lucid, I've found that the entities that limit to answer only my questions and/or show me glimpses of my future whitout showing me nothing I have not yet asked, are the most benevolent ones. They also show no signs of inducing fear in ones dream and whether you return to the realm or not, they appear to have lots of patience with us of a lower frequency. None of these beings has ever tryed to charge me with energy of any type. It seems so far that it is enough for them to share if you somehow manage to get in the whereabouts of the realm. I found difficult to remember my experiences there when I'm not really paying attention so It is complex to know if indeed you had something worth and you just missed it.. (thats how I call semi aware). Returning in another nap seems to fix it the fluctuations.

[personalreality]

Who do you trust in your "waking" life?

When it comes to my experience, I trust no one.

Here's the issue, we have become a psychically stunted species. Whether there is anyone at fault is irrelevant. Our daily lives are buried under mountains of reinforcement of the physical and nothing else. So, for all we know, these "entities" you're interacting with are cosmic pranksters. Maybe they aren't much different from us and just like to screw with us. The problem is, we just don't know.

Maybe you have faith in your "spiritual intuition" or whatever, and believe you can feel the truth or something. I'm unfortunately a little more cynical. My "non-physical" sensibilities are heavily tainted by my body's filter. Maybe I'm feeling what I want to feel and not the truth. Even if I've spent oodles of time training myself to be ego-free that's really just nonsense. You need your ego. You can lessen your attachment to it, but you can't, and shouldn't, dissolve it.

You've had however many years on Earth perceiving reality through your body. Compare that to the relatively minuscule amount of time/experience you've had perceiving something other than your body's reality. The truth is, you've got a lot of body experience to overcome if you want to experience a "pure otherworld" (not that you necessarily would or should).

This is evidenced heavily in your question. You're applying your body's earthly sensibilities to something that is decidedly otherworldly. Maybe this notion of "good vs evil" or "light vs dark" or "positive vs negative" is solely based in our culture on earth. I mean, psychologically speak it is. Once upon a time, before well lit cities and internet, the sun was the light bringer who staved off the perils of the night. An important part of every pre-firewielding man's day. The day time (light) is good because it's safe, the night time (dark) is evil because it's dangerous.

In my experience, no one is free of self-interest. Even the most noble philanthropist still has selfish concerns, even if that concern is for the survival of his/her species. Practically speaking, sometimes this trait is beneficial to individuals. So maybe you should just trust a stranger offering you help, because it could turn out well for you. But hey, even if it doesn't, what's the worst that could happen?

On a side note, I wouldn't trust people like the Dali Lama as far as I could throw him. He was chosen as a child and raised in the psychologically programmed paradigm of his culture. He's just a guy like anyone else, bound by the restrictions of his belief system. Enlightenment is just another religion that makes big promises. Don't compare anyone you're trying to vet to what your ideal of an enlightened or spiritual being should be. You don't know their mind.

Ultimately, it's silly to try to apply our conceptions of morality and ethics onto a being that doesn't live in our paradigm.

[PlasmaAstralProjection]

I really don't have the time or desire to reply right now. But I might try to fit some time in next weekend or so.

[Rakkso]

I want to share the most valuable lesson I've learned. It works for everything.

You only get what you punt in.

You can then start trusting more in yourself I know.