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Author Topic: Hypnogogia / Phasing / Clairvoyance  (Read 5188 times)
jilola
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« on: February 26, 2004, 22:49:52 »

I know what you mean but the only advise I have is to forget about reaching the state, to forget about not reaching the state and to forget the state even exists.
Just let it happen if it will. Don't force it in any way, don't even think of not forcing it. Be cool, like [Wink]

2cents & L&L
Jouni
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Patrik
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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2004, 23:11:14 »

quote:
Originally posted by jilola

I know what you mean but the only advise I have is to forget about reaching the state, to forget about not reaching the state and to forget the state even exists.
Just let it happen if it will. Don't force it in any way, don't even think of not forcing it. Be cool, like [Wink]



yea, that's what I said I did not want to hear... Thanks anyway though Wink

Forgetting about it completely is of course the most obvious thing to try. And is what I always try to do, pretty useless though.

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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2004, 23:11:14 »

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shaman
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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2004, 15:55:58 »

The first thing that comes up to mind is "did you change anything in your diet, drinking, smoking, etc...?". There are many substances that can affect the  "state of mind" and can interfer with meditation and sleep. Are you more stressed or more relaxed, etc...? You have to ask yourself all kind of questions first. Are you taking medications?

The other thing is to try it at different moments of the days. Hypnogigic visions happen easily for me in the morning, after a dream when I wake up, before I even move an inch or open my eyes. So you might want to try that too. It of course also happen when falling asleep, but at that time I am more tired and will forget it as I am falling asleep. Also when relaxing and meditating you get these images/movies as you mentioned. THe details are that when you start concentrating on the object of meditation, your awareness shifts to other things (thoughts, feeling, noises, etc...) and then you have to bring your awareness back to the object of meditation (your breathing for example). The next stage is the hypnagogic state when you start having visions. These visions will happen as your awareness shifts from the object of concentration to wander to all kind of distractions. However, once you bring your awareness back to the object of meditation the visions vanish. Also if you reach full absorption with the object of concentration, you have passed the hypnagogic state and have reached a deeper level of meditation.

So if you wish to see visions, you need to let go and not concentrate too much. You need to be able to let go enough so that you do not reach full absorption and so that you do not bring your attention to your object of meditation too quickly. You need to be "absent minded" for a short moment for that to happen.

Maybe, you have much more controle now of your concentration while you meditate and your concentration is so high that you are not absent minded at any time any more.

I am not sure if what I wrote makes sens to you, but I hope it does.

I hope I could help.

Shaman The Dreamer  [|)]
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Patrik
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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2004, 20:23:59 »

Shaman,

Thank you for your reply. I found the 5 pages post on phasing, that together with your post have gotten me to see new hope. Thinking of changes in diet etc is pretty hard. But I will try to take notice on what I eat and do from now on, and if the hypnogogia returns I might notice this.

I doubt my problem is too good of a concentration, but I do seem to get past the state in which hypnogogia is supposed to occure, more often than I see them (no wonder since I never see them any more, Wink

I appreciate your reply, and will try and see if being "less" concentrated during the state hypnogogia is supposed to occure will make a difference.

Thanks.
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AndrewTheSinger
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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2004, 23:22:09 »

The best way I've found to induce the hypnagogia is to try to read.

When I awake in between dreams I fall back asleep pretending to be reading an invisible book. I get deeply involved with that 'game'. Without seeing anything I turn the pages of the book, pretend I can see pictures... for some time while getting closer to sleep I may forget to pretend, but then I continue. After awhile doing this I can see a hazy shape of the book, I get even more involved and strain to read something, a word that be, then it appears.

It also helps me in the dreams when I'm losing focus.. I promptly search for something to read and my vision gets crystal clear.

I'm still to try reading sheet music.
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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2004, 23:22:09 »



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Patrik
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2004, 20:25:18 »

AndrewTheSinger,

That is quite an interesting idea, never heard that one before. I will give it a try, thanks Smiley
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jilola
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« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2004, 13:27:17 »

Paah, you're right. Sorry about not quite managing to finish reading the entire post. I was feeling perky [Cheesy]

2cents & L&L
Jouni
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holy reality
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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2004, 20:33:57 »

I am very familiar with the hypnagogic state as it is a roadblack on the way to OBE for me.

I can get there within ten to fifteen minutes on average, during the day... I do suspect that with proper motivation I could do it whenever, except maybe right after sleeping for 12 hours.

The problem is it is a passive hypnagogic state... I made a thread about this that is currently around page 8 of the general OBE discussion, it's called "something something hypnagogic state" if you want to search for it.. I also just now made a simpler one about my current troubles.

But basically my unconscious takes over and my conscious dies, and so then all of a sudden I'll get a myoclonic jerk (falling feeling) and I'll be back in my normal mind...

it's like a bouncing ball.. it takes a long time to hit the ground the first time, but after that it happens more and more and more and more and you go deeper and deeper and deeper until you can't stay conscious for more than 15 seconds at a time.

Then if you move after getting to that point it dies and you spend a considerably longer time getting back than you did in the beginning.

But you know... I just cannot stay "awake" or "alive" or "focused" or "thinking" and I can't get my unconscious to shut up (I often tell it to while it's "thinking" while I am still loosely awake)... so it's like... when I'm paralyzed there is no use, becuase I'm not awake to make use of the paralysis, then when I jolt out of the half asleep state my paralysis dies.

I've tried everything to keep my mind awake, if you have any tips please post them in my "falling asleep" thread or my hypnagogic state thread both in general OBE discussion.

as for how I get there... I find that you get there by causing gaps in your CONSCIOUS trail of thought... the problem is you cannot be aware of these gaps until they are already over.... I basically like to just loop something in my head over and over again... like if I'm making a breating pattern sometimes a weird string of sounds/words/thoughts pops into my head that goes along with what I'm doing, and I just kind of put that on loop, and say it over and over again... and then all of a sudden I'll lose track of myself and get close to the hypnagogic state.

Trying to imagine a figure climbing down a ladder works real well at first, and it hits a point where the ladder starts spinning around in a circle and you can't even begin to try and make him climb down it anymore, that usually gets you fairly close.

Imagining there is a little stick that is spinning around in your head (and trying to visualize it) helps get me groggy sometimes...

If I can hear my unconscious but I'm not going deep enough, talking to it works wonders.. it'll say random nonsense like "John went to the refill" and I'll say "What refill?" Or I'll just repeat what it said back to it.. and then it'll say something else... and that makes me really tired and disconnected.

But all these things work at shutting down my conscious and jump starting my unconscious, so they might just put you to sleep.. I don't know.
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Patrik
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« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2004, 04:22:31 »

holy reality,

I have read your posts, and unfortunately I don't have any suggestions on how to get past this. I used to spend a lot of time in this state when beginning to practise. But seems I just get there less and less nowadays. When I do hit the state, I still have not seen hypnogogia.

I have never really though about trying to project at that state, thinking I should get into a deeper trance first. But perhaps worth experimenting with. I do remember this however, that I too when spending time in the boarder state, would fall asleep and "jump up" imidiately. As mentioned never tried to project from there, but am gonna give it a try, and will let you know if I succeed (which I highly doubt).


Your suggestion on how to enter the hypnogogic state is basically to count sheep? I.e. put something on a loop, which can be trance practise, AP practise etc? Most of this usually do not work... I either get past the stage, or I don't get there at all. But some of the ideas you mentioned are worth trying, like putting one of the monologues on loop.

I also found some of the things you said in your posts in the OBE forum to be worth checking into.

I think I should try getting myself close to the sleep boarder, instead of deeper and deeper into trance, and see where this takes me. Perhaps I am just better at keeping myself awake than I used to...

Thank you for your reply, I will let you know if I find a way to keep myself awake long enough to project while on the sleep boarder.


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theball666
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« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2004, 00:50:23 »

I know what you mean about the geometric shapes... I find I usually hit that hypnogogic state when I am listening to music while meditating (I know I know it's a distraction.)  But maybe thats the point, cause the musical distraction helps you lose your intent to meditate.

I was just thinking that maybe you don't meditate in visual n e more or something,  maybe just imagining scenes or images before you let go could help stimulate visual thinking.  Also, after a workout or something physically tiring I drift out of meditation into that just zoning out state where you see alot of thoughts easier.
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Patrik
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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2004, 18:24:54 »

theball666,

I do use visuals to practise AP and when meditating from time to time. But most of the time I do not, perhaps there is something to your thought there.

I am gonna try doing a little more visual meditating and see if that changes things a bit. Thank you for your post.
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Research
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2004, 21:48:45 »

Patrik,
I'm a new member here, but with some experience in these states, trance,ad oobe. A couple thoughts come to mind.
First a question; what is your interest in the hypnagogic phase? Perhaps there is something there that you seek that your unconscious is already taking you toin a different way. One of the most basic functions of consciousness that I've seen in intuition and remote viewing training is that once you have an intent and expess it, your unconscious, and through that, your higher conscious, will respond in some way. We only have to be open and receptive to what manifests. Of course this may not be what we expect. That's why I ask, what is your intent? Making that clearer may illuminate what your results have already been. If you feel frustration, then be with it. It is your process as it's happening. If there is a feeling that is driving your interest, then making that more conscious and being with it may help clear things up. In a way I feel its about learning to trust the unconscious, that it will take us right into whatever we need to experience. We have intentions, let them go, then allow the experience to unfold.
I don't know if that helps or not.
Also, have you read Mavromatis' book, 'Hypnagogia'? It's by far the best and most thorough study of this phenomena that I've seen. It is out of print but can be attained through inter-library loan.

warm regards - research
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Stargazer
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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2004, 17:19:39 »

"... Weither I want it, or not, I cannot get it back..." you said. Ofcourse you get it, you are just not aware of it anymore. I am very familiar with the hypnagogic state of mind myself, and I had a similar problem. Only that my problem only lasted for a month or two. Before I started to loose my hypnagogic images, I used to train my mind to "become empty". It was something that disturbed me (my untamed mind) quite a lot while meditating and similar stuff. I just could not tame my mind, and I always hooked on some thought, and lost concentaration. Then I just started to train, push myself harder and harder, forcing my mind not to think. This was (naturally) a big mistake to do, since I lost my hypn.images, too. I was in such an imbalance with myself, and my only choise was to take it easy and stop all my exercises for a while. After a month/two, I began to get my images back..and I could also empty my mind in a more natural way. I just needed a brake, a time-out.
You think this can be of any help?

Good Luck (neighbour [Wink])!
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holy reality
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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2004, 21:36:01 »

my experience is that you have to "try not to try" meaning you have to desire to get there, and you have to try to get there... but you also have to try to do NOTHING.

it's like when you first get ready to "meditate" you are at a three way road... you can either go to a really crappy state where your mind is constantly wandering, but you are aware of surroundings, it's that hellish state you get in while waking up and not being able to fall asleep, you seem to have constant awareness and rambling thoughts, but they are not the sleepy kind.

I'm not sure what to call that but I don't like it and if I'm not careful instead of going to sleep/hypnagognia, I go there.

Or you can go all the way to sleep.

Or you can stay in the middle like you are in a completely normal state of mind.

But once you embark in one direction it's very hard to go to another.

So what I do is I do a little bit of breath awareness... and I usually focus on the noise of my fan... I unconsciously affirm my desire to reach the near sleep area, while keeping my head clear, not interfering with the process of getting there.... and I just hold onto that desire...

I hold my thoughts clear, and then they start wandering, usually somewhat unconsciously... the second I notice that I have lost focus I look at my eyelids, physically, and suddenly, and it causes a little bit of an adrenaline feeling.... kind of like falling asleep.

After you do this a while, the feeling stops being artificial, and you don't have to look at your eyelids or focus at much at all... you'll just randomly jolt in and out of consciousness, in and out of track.

after maybe 5 of these falling type feelings you'll be very groggy and to a point where you know you won't be able to focus for more than a few seconds before going back in.

And from there I have no idea what you do, but you are about to enter hypnagognia, only an unconscious, sleeping kind of hypnagognia... how you enter that while staying focused is beyond me.

I've tried everything I can think of and it doesn't work.


But unless I'm hyper or full of energy I can reach this point in 5-20 minutes (usually 15)... so you could say it's at will.... about the only time I can't do it is if I've just had a nap or have been doing the in and out process for a long time.....

Generally I find it best to have been awake for at least 6 hours prior to trying this though.... becuase you are basically just turning the sleep mechanism on.



Basically the intent is to do nothing, so that you fall asleep, but it has to be a controlled and monitored nothing, becuase if you let it stay too unfocused you won't ever fall aslepe and just wander aimlessly in your head forever and get frustrated... which is why each time you drift off track you are to bring your focus back up and maybe even start voluntarily "thinking" (verbally) for a few seconds
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Patrik
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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2004, 10:22:57 »

Ooops, haven't looked into this thread for a while, seem I missed to reply. Well better late than never Wink

Research,

There are many reasons I'd like to enter the hypnogogic state. One of them is for the purpose of phasing into the astral. Another is this is the kind of "boarder" line state, where after this has passed you can soon leave the body. When I first began to have them I didn't know this, and now when I do I can't seem to get them back.

Lately I have been able to get a form of hypnogogia... But those are very faint and it's hard to know if they are conjured up by my imagination or are the real thing. In any case they aren't as vivid, and the kind you need for phasing. I don't even know if I can call them hypnogogia, since full hypnogogia to me is very colorful.


Stargazer,

I do train to silence the mind, since that is needed for meditation and deeper trance. However I don't think I "force" myself too much. In fact, when I posted the above post I couldn't get any images at all. Now I am a bit better at silencing the mind, and even though I still can't get the proper hypnogogia back. I do get semi-hypnogogia, or what to call it. That is I might get a "grey" image popping up in head, when trying to quiet the mind. The thing is these images aren't really the kind I am looking for, and they somehow gets affected by my concious mind. For example I might think of a wall, and I get a full "grey" scenery were a similar wall is present.


holy reality,

I know what you are referring to. You fall asleep for a few seconds, and when they happen you kind of "dream" weird things. You snap back, now very tired, fall back to sleep, see a new dream scene, all in full color. I have experienced this too, and I guess it can be called, or is hypnogogia. I have a hard time, or rather impossible time to reach this state as well. But has happened a single few times since I posted the above post. Being in this state is weird... and last time I was in this state I saw a very colorful scenery and heard a voice "telling" me stuff. But since when this happens you are unconcious I can't remember what was being said.

However the hypnogogia I had in the beginning and which is what I want back to. Happened while more or less concious. Often you can "loose yourself" in the images, and not realize that you are actually in bed. But when you snap out of it, you are just as awake again, and not "tired" as the dream-type above. Also when this happens it's a lot easier to remain concious while you watch the images. And actually think and analyze what you see... which again is not possible in the dream-ones above.

Since for phasing you need to take concious control of the image, this is what I am after. I also think it's hard to get "past" the hypnogogic stage if you keep getting in and out of sleep. This type you don't really fall asleep, and one should therefor be able to get "deeper" if desired.



Thanks all three of you for the comments and suggestions. I will take what has been mentioned into thought and just keep experimenting I guess... Thanks.
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« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2004, 01:41:00 »

http://www.thiaoouba.com/aura_eye_exercise.htm
On that site is a picture you stare at a certain way to heighten awareness.  I've always noticed increased clarity in hypnogogic/other imagery afterwards.  
Also, any visualization involving putting energy or awareness to your third eye will do the same.
Your problem is one of two... you're focusing the wrong way, or the imagery is there but too dim to notice.
It's hard to explain, but when I'm in that state I just see the random images; If I want to start up a dream, it seems like I need to adjust focus first, and I no longer see the imagery and instead see my creation only.  Maybe you're in the creation mode and need a less aware, more nonchalant mental state to see them.
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Patrik
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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2004, 21:45:09 »

This question is probably a bit odd, but I am starting to go nuts here so I'll give it a try...
(sorry for the long post, but please read it)

Reaching the hypnogogic state used to be quite easy, or rather I got there during practises, meditation etc without wanting or trying. However I have lately wanted to learn how to reach this state on will, and now I can't seem to reach it EVER, *lol*

I know what you all think, do not think about it and it will come... However that is not true... Weither I want it, or not, I cannot get it back...

Just to make sure everyone knows what I am talking about, and at what state of hypnogogia I am referring to. It's the state between being awake and asleep. One gets in touch with the subconscious and it starts "throwing" images at you... These are images you actually see, and are pretty much never based on thoughts, emotions etc. Usually illogical still-images or animated scenes. They are either like watching a little greyish, but still clear dream... Or they are VERY, VERY vivid, like watching an actual photograph or movie (the later is more often places and faces-often which you do not know).

Getting the first type used to be no problem at all, the second more vivid "type" used to happen from time to time. If you get into a trance, these should appear after the neural discharges stop (the "lightnings" and light flashes you see in the blackness). Regardless how long, and how deep of a trance I get, and even though I am close to sleep, the dicharges ended, being tired, just slept 10+ hours, morning, night, day etc. I just don't get them to re-appear!

The scientific term for this state is hypnogogia, but according to most sources this is the state mystics call clairvoyance (just in case you still don't know what I am talking about).


On a side-note, prior to these images appearing one can also see lots of geometric shapes and colors. As a child (like 12-15 years old), I used to be able to see these shapes without problem at all, and used to look at them, since they created nice shapes and increadible images etc. Then I stopped watching them for several years, and has since then not been able to reproduce them either. If I can see these I am pretty sure I can get the hypnogogic images to appear as well (even though these are a lot easier).


To make really sure you know what I am talking about, these images are the ones people use to "phase" into the astral.

Sorry for the long text, but if ANYONE has ANY hints, books, websites etc on how to best reach this state, I'd appreciate it. However, please don't give me suggestions like "just stare into the blackness", "don't think about it" and things like that.
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