Heaven on Earth

[Herewini1985]

If I may, I would like to share with you a brief and admittedly amateur perspective I have in regards to truth, dissonance and perspective. I have surmised that truth exists when all available information in relation to my perspective is gathered and assessed objectively. And because my perspective could be considered as a fractured shard of a greater perspective, I will only ever be afforded a half truth - in relation to my interpretations of the world around me as defined within the limitations of time (how much time I'm given to assess the world around me) space (the limited amount of space I'm able to perceive at said time), and the attachments I hold on to which solidify my identity and ergo my position in relation to the world around me.

Secondly, I have surmised that dissonance is an inherent and perhaps necessary cog in the wheel of this fractured perspective. When multiple individuals - grounded in truth identified through a fractured perspective and solidified through attachments gained therein - share a tumultuous environment together, dissonance becomes a high likelihood and dare I say a statistical inevitability. So through this albeit amateur understanding, I have come to entertain the possibility that suffering may be an integral part of the plane in which we inhabit given the current given perspective, and more importantly that dissonance may be a statistical inevitability.

However, If our current perspective was somehow broadened to incorporate that which cannot be equated through normal means, we would be able to move freely and unfettered through this system - riding the currents of dissonance towards a destiny of our own making. Instead of attempting to eliminate suffering, I surmise we may be able to surpass it entirely, and more importantly embrace it as an integral part of nature - illuminating the dark corners of existence in order to navigate the corridors of our fractured perspective, and bring the pieces together to form a unified whole in which we can live an existence no longer marred by attachment or bound by restrictions.

So my query is; In your opinion, is it possible a literal 'heaven on Earth' scenario may be plausible? and If so, in your opinion, would this existence rest on the foundation of the ignorance and suffering of human consciousness? I don't particularly find this hypothesis morally abhorrent, as I realise my morals are bound by attachments found within a fractured perspective and more importantly that everything that exists is, as it is - negating the refutability of both ignorance and suffering on a universal scale and accepting the inevitability of ignorance and suffering as an integral part of conscious evolution. I also believe that this hypothesis would not propogate the ideal that many must suffer in order for a select few to flourish - instead it may likely be seen as a universal state of flux, where conscious entities are being shaped and remoulded throughout each cycle, redirected as necessary through their actions and what is deemed necessary for their development at that time.

I understand that some of the concepts I am broaching may be amateur and in no way do I propose that this is a new stream of thought. This is simply a humble observation I have made recently and I would be honoured to receive your thoughts regarding this or any relating concepts you may find congruent.

[Xanth]

I don't know about Heaven on Earth... but sometimes this place feels like Hell.   

[Stookie]

Interesting thoughts Herewini1985.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the "bad" things in my life are also what brought me to many of the "good" things in life. When you're in the middle of bad, it's hard to see the good. Do enough contemplation on the bad and you'll learn from it. I think it's impossible for bad not to exist in a person's life. If someone seems like they don't have it, it's their perspective. Or they're pretending.

Look at Tiger Woods - he had it all, or so it seems. But his life is an obvious unhappy one right now. No one is immune, even with all the money in the world. I was reading about how unhappy Susan Boyle is right now - all the fame and money made her real issues all the more clear to her.

Live in hell for a while and heaven isn't too far away. And enjoy it while it's there, cause hell isn't too far either. Like they say, you've gotta take the bad with the good. If you try to ignore your problems and always be happy, you're not living in reality and need to learn to accept. It always makes me think of the Nirvana song (yes, I know he killed himself) "I miss the comfort in being sad".

We're probably not here to be happy or sad, but to experience a whole range of feelings, emotional and physical.

[Herewini1985]

Thank you for your responses, Xanth and Stookie. I believe relativity has a lot to do with what we experience and how we experience it. Whether good or bad, each perspective is only a sliver of a much larger picture - with each experience corresponding and relating to the individual and the environment concurrently. However, the ideal of free will in regards to what we're experiencing may be marred by the boundaries of what we can perceive - and what we're willing to perceive. Everything that makes up the story of who I am is based on multiple factors. Decisions, and factors of identity - many of which I had little or no choice to discern between. This reactionary pattern of cause and effect may be the very flux which paves the proverbial 'brick and mortar' of existence as we know it. But as cogs within the wheels of a some would say 'macro-cosmic timepiece', we also understand that our freedoms may be slightly impinged upon by this particular assumption.

We have a part to play as singular entities. Perhaps that part is to experience life in all its forms. Perhaps in doing so we can understand ourselves better, and endeavour towards a path of our own. Each individual will hold a different tale - a different perspective, with different needs relative to the individual and their growth. But regardless of that development, the process will still be somewhat 'linear', and marred by factors outside of your direct control. Complete freedom would be an illusion. But in relation to self discovery - where are we left when we dig deeper? When we look for the single, unifying principle that defines who we are now and forever, before our attachments became our identity? And after our attachments leave us. This non local intelligence which is said to dwell within each and everyone of us. What If we could bring the two together? Would our freedoms expand towards a higher way of living? And how would that reflect on our introspective analysis of our consciousness? Forgive me If I don't make much sense. There's a point where the particulars of what I entertain and my ablility to convey it effectively become stunted.

What I would like to suggest is a hypothesis. We understand that the interactions contained within the plane we inhabit may be formed through the current reactionary vibrations of good and bad, right and wrong and the allusion of seperation, correct? If we were able to see that which is outside ourselves, to somehow be in two places at once - perhaps this world with its seemingly chaotic nature of light, darkness and the many other facets of our existence would be a world in which we would truly choose. It could possibly be Heaven on Earth - If you could see more than you can. If your truth was no longer a half truth - but a full, encompassing embrace of what is.

Additional: I also surmise that this unifying principle may only be available to someone who forgoes the attachments found within a singular, separate identity. This is an assumption. To cessate the mind, starve the ego and let go of all attachments acquired through a fractured system. A 'shedding of the skin', so to speak - in order to identify something greater than the story of who we are. Greater than the brief flicker of passion and sorrow we experience during our lifetimes. Through this assumption - I can surmise that this hypothesis would be one of the most hardest undertakings for any human being to entertain. It's almost like dying.

'Die the death before death - and realize there is no death' - Eckhart Tolle

[Everlasting]

It's not possible to have heaven on earth since evil is allowed to have expression in our dense realm. Simple as that.

[lee46]

I don't know about Heaven on Earth... but sometimes this place feels like Hell.   

LOL! I'll second that

[Herewini1985]

It's not possible to have heaven on earth since evil is allowed to have expression in our dense realm. Simple as that.

No offense, but that sounds a little too simple, and exceptionally brief. Some of us perceive dissonance as 'evil', because we believe it is not succinct with our perspective. This belief is an assumption grounded through the identity we perceive, the attachments that follow and the seperation necessary for us to perceive the world the way we do - through a much smaller perspective in a much larger field of operations. This doesn't negate the presence of evil - it simply identifies it in relation to us and our environment. If our perspective were to change, our perceptions would change. A world where freedoms are impinged upon would not be a world at all - the journey of self discovery would remain stunted through an ever present 'what if' scenario, and our development would be affected because of it. Responsibility on the part of the individual is a crucial stepping stone towards freedom, autonomy and self realization, in my humble opinion.

Consider the concept of love. Love - in its simplest form - is consideration. You can always consider yourself - because you are front and centre, completely conscious in all actions undertaken. If you are honest and compassionate towards yourself, you can accommodate all the subtle nuances of who you are and treat yourself with the utmost consideration. That consideration comes from knowing who you are. This is also why forging a relationship with another person can be difficult, because you won't know them entirely. You'll only know what they choose to show you, and what is available to you within the limitations of time and space. So the level of consideration you have towards each other will be limited because of this fundamental lack of knowledge. your perspective will be a fractured one - similar to your perspective in relation the world. To assume you know the world in its entirety would be arrogance. What I would like to hypothesize If I may, is the concept (again, not a new theory) of unification. Of knowing what can't be known through the means we have available to us now. Equating the unequated. And If this possibility were valid - knowing that darkness and light require each other in this world, we also know that If it's dark somewhere - it's light somewhere else. We can move accordingly.

Thank you for your consideration regarding this post. I don't purport any validity in my post - simply a thought, a possibility found twisting in the winds of what may be.

[Xanth]

It's not possible to have heaven on earth since evil is allowed to have expression in our dense realm. Simple as that.

One can't really exist without the other.

[Herewini1985]

To Stookie and Xanth - Your thoughts regarding this hypothesis?

[mon9999]

Las Vegas!! 

[Stookie]

What I would like to suggest is a hypothesis. We understand that the interactions contained within the plane we inhabit may be formed through the current reactionary vibrations of good and bad, right and wrong and the allusion of seperation, correct? If we were able to see that which is outside ourselves, to somehow be in two places at once - perhaps this world with its seemingly chaotic nature of light, darkness and the many other facets of our existence would be a world in which we would truly choose. It could possibly be Heaven on Earth - If you could see more than you can. If your truth was no longer a half truth - but a full, encompassing embrace of what is.

There's a possibility that we do have free will, but it doesn't matter. Maybe our perception of free will is there strictly for self-discovery, and that's what matters. Like you said, by changing our perspective, we change our perception. And by changing our perception, the world itself changes. But this doesn't change our interaction with the world, only our perception of reality. Like the Zen proverb: "Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood, carry water." I guess in this case, there would be no heaven or hell, no good or bad in life experience, just "being". This is devastating to the ego, but with that devastation comes the realization that we're not our ego either, that it's just a facet of our current physical life and not who we really are.

I was listening to some early 70's jazz this weekend (Sun Ra) and one of the lyrics in a song was "The world has already ended. Haven't you figured that out yet?" If you knew that you were already dead, would you carry out your life any differently, or continue to "chop wood, carry water" like the day before?

[Herewini1985]

Thank you for your response, Stookie. I always appreciate your input. Your response was quite thought provoking. Forgive my ignorance If I am mistaken, I was under the assumption that the proverb, 'before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood, carry water', was representative of two interpretations at least; the first being an allusion to the mindfulness of being present in what actions are being carried out; to focus on the task at hand, giving it your full attention rather than focusing your attention in the completion of the task which is in the future (a conceptual existence found only in the mind which would be in direct contrast to what is, therefore an allusion to what is not). Considering this koan on a second format, I agree with the interpretation which suggests you would still chop wood and carry water after enlightenment, as the particulars of the world do not change. But the way in which you understand it would. Everyday, we make assumptions. We assume that tomorrow the sun will shine. Sometimes it does. Maybe most often it does. But sometimes it rains. We assume that the trains will run on time. Sometimes they do. Maybe most times they do. But sometimes they don't. We assume that it's safe to walk in one direction home. Sometimes it is. Most times it is. But sometimes it may not be. If it rains, I still operate within the parameters of the system; only now with a different perspective; one which allows me to - let's say - carry an umbrella. If the trains don't run on time, I can catch an earlier one or find alternative means of transportation. If it's not safe to go in one direction - I can take another path. All of these alternative options still within the parameters of the system. I still need to chop wood, carry water. But I would know when and where to do so.

Rather than a 'good versus bad' scenario, I would like to entertain the possibility of a dissonance versus congruence scenario - with the fundamental backdrop being understanding. We assume that there is dissonance - things that are not succinct. Why do 'bad' things happen to 'good' people? If we were to know the entire 'story', we might see a congruence. And that congruence, that harmony in and of itself - could quite possibly be considered 'heaven', perfect in its harmonious nature. Everything would simply be, and it would make sense because it was congruent. What might categorize it as being something which could be considered 'heavenly' because of the level of understanding we have in regards to ourselves, and our environment. Increase the level of understanding, and we could effectively minimize the effects of our external and internal stressors.

I'm not sure what I'd do If I were dead. Unfortunately I've never died before, and first hand testimonies of the deceased are so hard to come by these days. I assume I would chop wood, carry water. I can only exist within the parameters of my environment. Perhaps I would chop ghost wood, and carry ghost water. It's always a possibility.  

[gdo]

Is there heaven on earth?  Yes I think there is.  And I also think it is more involved than those words convey. 

The eye is just the organ that recieves the reflected light that comes off of the objects that it hits.  The real organ of sight is the brain. 

I think there are a few persons that have affected the changes necesary in their brain to see differently, interpret differently and experience differently.  Everthing that is, IS.
The majority of persons do not see the 'IS'.  We see what we have come to expect to see, learned to see,want to see.  We GIVE what we see the meanings of the words that we use to talk about them. 

[Herewini1985]

Thank you for your contribution gdo.

If we were able to see that which is outside ourselves, to somehow be in two places at once - perhaps this world with its seemingly chaotic nature of light, darkness and the many other facets of our existence would be a world in which we would truly choose. It could possibly be Heaven on Earth - If you could see more than you can. If your truth was no longer a half truth - but a full, encompassing embrace of what is.

Forgive me. Words always have a habit of falling short. What I mean - and what I think you might be interpreting - is this.

somehow be in two places at once

Keyword be. I don't mean see as in visually. I mean see as in experience. With that being said - I don't negate the validity of our current being in any way, i think it's perfectly acceptable and holds a definite purpose in solidifying our individualistic experiences as they come, as well as possibly fueling the causal world even. But the possibility of a kind of super positioned perspective is what I'd like to entertain, specifically the freedom to choose this path of super positioning, for lack of a better word. The question of course is how to do so. What are your thoughts on achieving this? Personally I speculate that in order to entertain a perspective other than your own you may have to relinquish the one you hold.

[Stookie]

Personally I speculate that in order to entertain a perspective other than your own you may have to relinquish the one you hold.

I agree that might be the case. That's why I brought up the "end of the world" theme, because that's basically what happens in that "super-position" - the world and identity you once held as definitive reality instantly ends and becomes something else. And with the new perspective, may come a new way of life (though I doubt heaven), or maybe you'll still do the same thing, it's your choice.

[gdo]

"relinquish the one you hold."

In a way yes. and in another way no.

We do have to relinquish a mode of thought that limits our perceptions.  We do not have to relinquish our conciousness.  We do have to learn to SEE  or sense differently but not with the eye with the mind.  (not that I can do this or am proficient, I claim nothing of the sort)

[gdo]

Become Peaceful yourself first, when you have done that give it to one person.

[gdo]

My apologies this last post was meant for another section.

[vipassana]

There's a possibility that we do have free will, but it doesn't matter. Maybe our perception of free will is there strictly for self-discovery, and that's what matters. Like you said, by changing our perspective, we change our perception. And by changing our perception, the world itself changes. But this doesn't change our interaction with the world, only our perception of reality. Like the Zen proverb: "Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood, carry water." I guess in this case, there would be no heaven or hell, no good or bad in life experience, just "being". This is devastating to the ego, but with that devastation comes the realization that we're not our ego either, that it's just a facet of our current physical life and not who we really are.

I was listening to some early 70's jazz this weekend (Sun Ra) and one of the lyrics in a song was "The world has already ended. Haven't you figured that out yet?" If you knew that you were already dead, would you carry out your life any differently, or continue to "chop wood, carry water" like the day before?

Stookie, this is deep man. I think about this all of the time. Why do we force ourselves into doing things we don't really want to do, like go to work everyday. I've read in may different sources that there are endless communities in the astral and beyond where people live like they do on earth. Why? If I had no need for food, shelter, clothing and other basic necessities that being in the physical brings, I sure wouldn't be limiting myself like this. I would be out exploring every corner of the globe, taking it all in and trying to experience it all. But I find myself trying to maintain a materialistic lifestyle to make a mortgage payment every month, make a car payment, pay for this, pay for that, blah, blah, blah.

[Xanth]

Stookie, this is deep man. I think about this all of the time. Why do we force ourselves into doing things we don't really want to do, like go to work everyday. I've read in may different sources that there are endless communities in the astral and beyond where people live like they do on earth. Why? If I had no need for food, shelter, clothing and other basic necessities that being in the physical brings, I sure wouldn't be limiting myself like this. I would be out exploring every corner of the globe, taking it all in and trying to experience it all. But I find myself trying to maintain a materialistic lifestyle to make a mortgage payment every month, make a car payment, pay for this, pay for that, blah, blah, blah.

Welcome to "experiencing" the physical world.  ROFL

[Stookie]

Stookie, this is deep man. I think about this all of the time. Why do we force ourselves into doing things we don't really want to do, like go to work everyday. I've read in may different sources that there are endless communities in the astral and beyond where people live like they do on earth. Why? If I had no need for food, shelter, clothing and other basic necessities that being in the physical brings, I sure wouldn't be limiting myself like this. I would be out exploring every corner of the globe, taking it all in and trying to experience it all. But I find myself trying to maintain a materialistic lifestyle to make a mortgage payment every month, make a car payment, pay for this, pay for that, blah, blah, blah.

It's funny you say that - I was just thinking about this very thing this morning. My exact thoughts were: I have the world as my playground, and I could drop everything and do anything. I have no responsibilities other than to myself at this moment. So why don't I?

1: Because I like my job (really). Not many people do, so I run with it. I get to be creative and it's challenging.
2: I already do travel once or twice a year already, and always try to go somewhere I've never been.
3: Just knowing I have the world as my playground is liberating. That knowledge makes daily life enjoyable.

Another philosophy I live by: Live life like I'm always on vacation. It's harder in the winter though.

[AmbientSound]

I think it's all about well-being and tension. Tension brings focus to an area. That focus brings awareness. That awareness helps us maintain a better state of well-being. What is well-being? Well-being is the stable fluctuations of the internal forces which constitute our beings, in balance, synchronization and harmony with the external forces of the world.

[vipassana]

I'm going to throw this out there to you guys...ever since I have involved myself into AP, spiritualness and the endless pursuit of more knowledge on the subject, I believe I have become a lot more sensitive to sensing energy, vibes, whatever you choose to call it, good or bad, positive or negative. I used to let it consume me. Now that I recognize it for what it really is, I'm learning to just "notice" it, so to speak and not let it consume me. It lets me know there is an issue at hand. I'm a project manager where I work and I manage 9 people. There are actually a couple of us managers and a total of 27 people on the project. The negativity is overwhelming. The precedent is set at management levels above me. As they say, sh*t flows downhill. Upper management has little respect for people. They think they do, but they don't. They keep pushing, and asking for more and more and more, and not being grateful that people are complying. Well, it's getting to the point where people are saying enough of this crap and leaving the company. The morale stinks. I feel this negative energy while I am there. I now recognize it for what it is. Other people in management do not. I've come to the conclusion that you can't have concern for money and at the same time be concerned for people. When you lower people to nothing more than a "liability" on a balance sheet, you are going to have a hard time finding any positive energy. So, I've decided to make changing this mentality one of my life missions. Whether I'll be successful or not I have no idea. I believe in a mission and a purpose in life. I think we have many. It could very well be that it is supposed to be this way. Maybe people land in my company to learn a life lesson? I can't help but think one day I will look back on this ordeal and realize I gained something out of it.
So do you believe in this ability to "feel" energy? If you can/do, do you let it guide your decisions?

[CFTraveler]

Well.... last year I would have said that you progress however you progress, and my reasons for doing energy work was to control what happened upon separation- and really, I don't think it has influenced my sense of 'being' in the universe.
However, I have found recently that I am becoming precognitive- and this is new for me.  So, IDK if my doing energy work is the reason, but it definitely is one of the things that I still do regularly.
So, go figure.

[Stookie]

So, I've decided to make changing this mentality one of my life missions.

That's one of my missions too. And my #1 plan of action: be an example. It can be very difficult to hold this type of mentality around negative individuals, but if you do, it does start to make a difference. People notice and it slowly rubs off.

So do you believe in this ability to "feel" energy? If you can/do, do you let it guide your decisions?

How we feel at any given moment guides our decisions, so having the correct perception and concept of your current reality will guide you to the right decisions.

I've been reading Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now". I realized I haven't read a self-help book in years. I'm flying through it because I'm not really learning anything new, but reading each page like "wow, I do that... I do that too... hey, I could have wrote this". Even his description of how he came upon it is similar to me. While I read it, it really puts me in the "now".