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cainam_nazier
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« on: April 30, 2002, 15:36:02 »

Pre warning this post may offend the religious.  But keep in mind it is only one persons view and that would be mine.


I have thought long and hard on this subject and as a result I have aquired a favorite past time from it.  Which woudl be agrivating "fanatics".

I can say without a doubt that there is no God.  But I can also say without a doubt that there is.  I shall explain my madness.

First off the lighter side.  Yes there is a God.  He lives, breaths, and resides in the hearts and minds of those who believe.  He his all powerfull and understanding of your situation.  He shows compasion and mercy for all. He is the person who guides you through life and teaches you right from wrong.    

But unfortunately that is the only place he lives.  I have studied and looked into many religions and in the end they all turn out the same.  Thiers is the true way and to believe in any other means damnation.  So to put it mildly the entire world is damned from the get go.  There are too many descripincies(sp?) between them all for one person to make any kind of sence out of it.  But I tried.  You have to take each with a grain of salt and consider the time at which they were written.

Most of the great books that are out there were designed as a way of life.  This being so that a person would live longer and healthier.  The Mormon book being what I think is the supream example of this.  If you look at how many things a Mormon can not do, eat, or drink and you will begin to see this.  Ask yourself this.  How many Mormans have you seen that are ture to thier religion that are unhealthy?  The answer being not many, not very many at all.  It seems that all of the books were written as a guide to helathy living for the time and region that they were written in.  Hence the vast differences for one book to the next.  Further more they were written as some what as a book of laws also.  Covering all the areas of what you can and can not do.  How to treat your family, friends, and fellow man.

The reason for this being that it is instinctive of all life on Earth to achieve some sort of balance with nature.  These books were our attempt to do so.  If you listen to all the lessons there is at least on common thread.  That being one of simple living.  A basic "do not bite off more than you can chew." view piont.  Through time however they have all become an institution.  Many of thier ways and teachings have been lost.  This being either one they no longer apply or two people in general are starting to see past all the smoke and mirrors.  But still it si normal for people to seek a guide for life because it is easier to be told how to do things rather than finding out.  And most people have no idea what todo when faced with some thing that they don't understand.  So they seek out answers and for what ever reason they either do not have the resources or are happy with the first responce they get because if nothing else it is an answer and it is soothing to know that at least some one else has experienced it and understands.

Think of it some what like school.  When you were young you were sent off to school to learn but you had no major desire to do so. (Well most of us.)  And nor did those before us.  So instead of having this huge warehouse of books and knowladge for us to muddle through they provide us with an athority on the subject.  And we often took thier word as law because we did not want to acertain this information on our own.  So you begin to learn and when you ran accross some thing that puzzled you again you return to that same ssource for answers.  And sometimes got the perverbale(SP?) "Becasue I said so."  Which in most cases is retorted with "Oh, okay."  And we go blindly on our way.  

Such is the machine of organzied religion.  The blind leading the blind for control or the masses to try and ensure that we don't kill ourselves.  Power in its purest form.  It is easier being a sheep than it is being a shepard.



David Rogalski
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Fenris
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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2002, 03:40:26 »

Never walk in the shadow of another.

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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2002, 03:40:26 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Atlas
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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2002, 05:11:49 »

You make good points distant bell.

I used to be a fairly devout catholic, but then everything broke down for me about one year ago. I just started asking myself what i really DO believe and why.

In my opinion, everything is about power over you. Everyone wants a piece of your pie, just one more dollar. If they can't get it out of you willingly by offering you something in exchange (free market) then they will coerce/extort it out of you (government) or scare it out of you (religion). Just a simple statement like "faith is good" was something I never questioned until I recently analysed it. What does faith actually say about your character? Nothing, except that you are gullible. Because in order to have faith in something, you can't have evidence or proof otherwise you KNOW it, which is different (and bad!). You must believe without proof, which to me sends up the red flag of a charlatan.

So whose religious system without proof are you going to believe for no reason? That's the question. And since what....probably like 95% of people are the same religion as their parents/geographical area, it seems the whole issue is decided pretty randomly (where you happen to be born).

well, this might be rambling, I'm just writing down a few of the issues that have been on my mind lately religious-wise. It's 3:11 am here hehe

 
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steveb
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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2002, 12:22:24 »

Greetings All  The link below is an interesting site, well maybe not the site so much , but if your on the mailing list, some of the emails sent are quite interesting inregards to correlation of religous beliefs( well at best, the way the author see's it)

http://reluctant-messenger.com/main.htm

Regards  Steve

 
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WalkerInTheWoods
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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2002, 12:29:25 »

I totally agree with that has been said in this post. Kind of weird because this issue has been on my mind as of late. I do not see a need to repost what as been said, just let me say that everyone has brought up good points and I share your thoughts.
I grew up in Christainity in a small town with no diversity. For many years it just seemed that Christainity was the truth. It was what I was told when I went to church and when my parents would talk about it. It was all around me so it just seemed right. When I was young I studied it and read the bible. I think that my true reason was to learn more, to discover truths. But then I grew up. I matured and I wanted to continue growing. My thoughts turned to the rest of the world, a diverse world where the majority are not Christains. Christainity states that if you are not Christain then you are damned to an eternity in some terrible fire. Questions came to me that just did not seem to be answered right in my religion. Why would a god create just to have a few saved in the end. The more I thought, the more I searched, the more I questioned. I came to the conclusion that all religions must hold a truth. That they are all based on the same thing, all turn to the same god just different faces of him/she/it. Then as of late other thoughts have come to me. Is there truly a god? An intelligent being who is all powerful. Though I have not made my mind up entirely on this subject I feel I am at the conclusion cainam_nazier has presented. How could there be, atleast one such as religion has presented?
There is so much discord in the world. So much fighting. Look at what most of it is about, religion. To me it seems like such a waste, such a terrible thing. People go about blindly because they never thought for themselves killing each other. Yet their religion says not to kill but they do it anyway. Do they do it because if they are not of their religion they are of no matter?
It seems that religion is just about power.

(Sorry if this sounds like rumbling. I am trying to condense so many thoughts into a post that does not keep gong on and on.)

 
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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2002, 12:29:25 »



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distant bell
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« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2002, 14:54:58 »

I agree with you al! I think that there is no personal god in the sense of the christian belife. I think that there is a force though- more or less impersonal that we can get intouch with.. or rather that we are part of.

The godess  Nuit is the best one for describing god.
Nuit is the arched sky over us.. She is unlimited possibility..
and we are stars shining in her body.
Hadit is the complementary god to the godess Nuit-
Hadit is energy in the moment, the realisation of possibility.
He is a winged globe of fire burning within us..

Oh these gods are so beautifull!

yeah, most religious systems are built like moral and health codes.. and probably wery good for the time when they where invented..
There are some musilms that brush there teeth with a pice of speciall wood, because it says that one should do this in the holy book.. hey that thought was good in the 600th century- but hey, now we have toothbrushes!

Felix

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Mobius
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« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2002, 00:05:20 »

G,day all

Good to see some people thinking for themselves & not being told what to think.We covered this topic somewhere else in here,can't find it now.

The thing I don't understand,if you are a member of one of these religions,& you choose not to find out about their information sources & ideals,then why not stick by all the rules & doctrines they desire you to live by.So many people say "Oh I'm a Buddhist,or Christian" & think that somehow that pigeon holes them into the good people group.When they don't stand by or live by any rules of their various religions.Why? because we all have inbuilt into us what is intrinsically right & wrong,everyone KNOWS what is the right thing to do,but choose not to because of selfish reasons or thinking there is a safety net waiting for them. "Sorry father I just stole my neighbors T.V & had sex with his wife,I couldn't help it,I just like everything he owns"..............................."Thats allright my son,say 10 Hail mary's & 10 Our Fathers & be on your way"

It is all falling apart on them anyway & now people can educate themselves quicker,it only takes a couple of days now "if you choose" to find out that you are perpetuating a lie.Even the cardinals at the Vatican know it,people are speaking up & starting to say things like "Well,I really love my God,but Mum/Mom,why does the local priest make me touch him there"   "WHAT!"

Good journeys all,lucky you all took the same pill off Morpheus,hehe

Mobius

 
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Rob
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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2002, 02:10:35 »


Hi guys!
I agree with oooh about 93% of the things said here but please don't just bash religion! Most people who are the clueless followers of say Christianity are just that, clueless. I am pretty sure every religion says something along the lines of "seek ye God", it doesn't matter much whether they are studying the Bible, Koran, etc so long as they are able to think for themselves, freely. The problems lie in people taking things as absolute truth, I am currently thinking dogma is formed by people regurgitating other peoples realisarions as their own, when really they do not in any way own that truth. Yes religion can be pretty closed minded but the cause of this is also a larger one in society (just look at scientists.....they really have their own dogma), which as I think someone has said is laziness instead of working it out for themselves. And as for the subject of religions just looking for power, well I have yet to meet a priest who lusts after control of the masses. While this may have once been true at the top of the vatican, it is a pretty rare thing. Most priests are just trying to live life to the highest principles they know while spreading the Word of God. Naively doing so some of the time, but their motives are true. And just look at the variety of churches out there, from the high catholics who take everything as read to the lower churches who just aren't sure. But aye I will certainly agree that it is a horrid mix of arrogance and ignorance (breeding eachother) to see people saying that their religion is "better" than everyone elses. Makes me cringe to say the least.
But still, it is very possible to ascent to God under any religion. I have said it before but the most Holy and wonderful person I have ever met is a Catholic Monsignor called Tony Agreiter, he simply radiates. On that matter, he was diagnosed with stomach cancer a while back and is now undergoing chemotherapy - any prayers and/or energy sent his way would be very beneficial and appreciated, please help!

Anyway, it is late in the morning for me too, I am sure that there is a lot I have forgotten to say but never mind

laters all!

(mmm tasty pill...lol http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_cool.gif" border=0>)

btw I would not consider myself really belonging to any religion though i was brought up Christian, I suppose my need for new and interesting things just took hold too strongly!

 
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2002, 04:08:31 »

This thread is really interesting to me as I realise that in America (as I believe most of you are from) religion is a pretty big thing - there are many many Christians and a large portion of the population go to a church of some form.

In New Zealand that is not exactly so - there are some Christians, Anglicans, Buddhists, Mormons etc, but a very small portion of the population go to church. I myself have been twice. For two weddings. Having grown up around such an environment I have no strong feelings on Religion at all - I do not believe strongly either way and have never even infact considered it all that much until I started getting interested in spirituality, just nigh three weeks back.

My belief is that most Religous people are so because of a strong human desire - a desire to belong and to be a part of a group, and what greater group than one which you share your common fundamentalist beliefs with?

Personally I am at odds as to what to believe in terms of Creation -  you can either accept science and believe the first law of thermodynamics which states matter cannot be created or destroyed and therefore conclude no matter how great God is he cannot break a fundamental law... Or you could say God is greater than any science, does what he pleases, and if you say matter cannot be created then how did scientists come up with the Big Bang theory, as matter was either created then or prior to then.

The Cosmic Theory is one of the greatest arguments for religion, but with humans such limited knowledge on anything there simply is no answer, especially as to how the astral planes relate to the Universe (if it truly exists).

I confused myself, as I always do when talking about something like this.  Tongue

Sidenote; I also believe that humans can be likened to ants in that we can never in any way ever understand anything more than what we ourselves believe to be important (our anthill) and never could our minds even possibly comprehend anything outside of our anthill, just as ants could not comprehend world politics or nuclear physics ;P



- Ashfo

 
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Grenade01
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2002, 05:42:32 »

Once again, to lazy to read everything.  So possibly ignore what I'm about to say.
But
I saw something there about religions trying to have power over you.

I just wanted to say something

My friends dad went through a spiritual phase when he was young
He said he sent every church/temple/ect around southern california a letter concerning "the answers and the truth"

He said most religions including christianity said --come to us we have the answers--
and things of that sort

but that hinduism and bhuddism responses went something like-- the answer is found only within yourself, but we would be honored if you would let us help you find these answers.--

Notice im not quoting anything..but the story went something like that
I just thought it was an interesting story
note i dont think he ended up following any spiritual practice


and i am also not a religious person

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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2002, 01:30:25 »

Hi, all, Good discussion.

Having read the posts, I think I agree with most of you on various levels. (For whatever THAT is worth ;->) My feelings, which I started to form around puberty, is that there IS a god. However, as is stated in the bible, we can't (fully) comprehend It. That is why there are so many religions that more or less say the same thing for different people. And why some religions were more "advanced" in the (direct) sharing of knowledge, it was for people that were ready for the knowledge.

To me it is more of a "force" of good and evil. (save the "star wars" jabs please). That has tried to be explained to a basicilly "dense" population for millenia. If you look at the development of relegion in general, it generally reflects what the given population could understand. From the "old religion" that was fairly "basic" (no offense) in its interpretation of things, to multiple gods to cover more complex issues, back to "roughly" one god that could do it all. But even this was a little hard for Christainity so things were somewhat split to have masculine/feminine aspects.

The basic idea (to me) is that life (include ALL aware things) is about everything, and we should not go through it self centered/absorbed. We were created in an image (science and religion(s) do back each other if you look close enough) and given the tools and abilities do as we want, with the idea towards common good. Evil is self and total destructive. The Earth has been recreated many times.... There are ruins in South America that show highly advanced civilizations (portable foundrys) that date back 30,000 to 40,000 years. The buildings were lined up for the equinox/solstices, but you have to go back that far to make them fit the solar patterns. Many religions have versions of the "biblical" flood, molded to fit their peoples. Science has pretty much confirmed it also by core samples.

The problem (my opinion) is that humanity generally degrades to greed, and the belief that only "I" know the truth, and all the rest of you are heathens, and we destroy ourselves, or do not have enough cooperation to make it through global catastrophies (ice ages for instance) intact so we go back to scratch and try again.



 
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Ashfo
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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2002, 04:38:21 »

I agree Grenade.


Many Christians try to force you into joining with them and believing, by either door knocking, phoning or pamphlets. I have recieved several pamphlets which are a disgrace to Christianity - such things as "HEAVEN OR HELL? ONLY CHRISTIANITY CAN SAVE YOU." I am making a very broad generalisation here, but I believe it is a correct one.

Never have I had anyone from Buddihsm or Hinduism come to me in such directness, or even suggest that their religion is the only one that can save you.


- Ashfo

 
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distant bell
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2002, 14:40:13 »

Most people seem to like to have an authoritan hand controling
them that they can trust in order not to have to think fro them selfe.
This is not only so in religion, but in many semi-religious political
Ideologys too.

It is said that Martin Luther gave the people religios authority,
but I have to say that I disagree. The people of the reformation
where still slaves under the bible. Even thoug they had the right
to read it, they hade no right to disbelive it..

I have had the pleasure to study many different religious groups,
and have come to the conclusion that almoust all religious people
choose to be fundamental slaves of  there religion(more or less..).

I can give an good example. I used to hang out with the people
from the Falun Gong movement and practise with them. The
master of the Falun Gong movement Li Hongzhi, has written a
book that is the foundation for the movement. Well, so now having
read that book and seen that he on many points seem to share the
wievs of other sytems. There are some parts that obviously
are religious babble too.. I tried to discuss the metaphysics with some
of the people of the movement, and it turn out that they belived
EVERY WORD of the book.. and without any rational proof.
They actaully read the book over and over continiously.. quite
scarry. They where opposed even to the idea of discussing the
ideas of the book with rational mind..

I hade the pleasure of having a loong discussion with a ISCON
devoti, he seemd both inteligent and educated. I tried to discuss the
metaphysicall part of the Hare Krishna movement, compare
it with othere sytems and symbol languages to look at
differences and similaritys with them- but he really didn´t
like that.. As soon as you start to compare a system with other
systems the fundamentalists get really scared- they just don´t
whant to think for themselfes..

The only way to find some truth in al this religious and metaphysical
Jungle, one has to compare all systmes in search for similaritys-
If some things come back in many different systems, there jusr
Might be some universal truth behinde them.

A funny thing is that almoust all groups are like this-
The most liberal group I have ever meet is the Thelemic
movemennt. But, even the Thelemites have the nasty
habit of legitimising everything with there holy book –
“Liber Al”. But of course the one rule of thelema is pretty
free- “Do what thou wilt shal be the whole of the law..”
But they still legitimise al kinds of things with phrases
From the holy book. Why do they need a holy book to live
after that rule?


And of course the same goes for the big religions, but a thousand
times worse.. just look at Christianity, Islam, Buddhism.. They are
all belife systems that are built on blinde belife..

I cannot help wondering why? Why are people so terrified of
making there own judegments, and think for them selfe?
Why should always someone else then oneslef eknow better?
How is it that exactly a certain Li Hongzhi is telling the truth?
(even though There are thousands of other religious leaders that
make the same claim on the turth out there..).

How can I belive in a system when there are thousand others?
If I say –“ I am a christian because of the bible and Jesus..”
Well, then what about buddha and Bhagavad-gita? What
About Li Hongzhi an Sai Baba? What about A.C. Bhaktivedanta
Swami Prabhupada? What about Mohamed and the koran,
Or the jews and there Thora..

They all have SO good reasons that exactly there system is the
only true one..

If I know that there are so many different systems that all have
prophets and divine visions to build on, then how can I just
choose one and then blindly runn around and belive?

Just some food for the thought..

Bless ya al!


-- Love is the Law - Love under Will --
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