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Author Topic: Proof  (Read 21437 times)
Tombo
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« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2004, 17:49:45 »

quote:
Originally posted by Kazbadan

Well, iīm trying to give ideas. Iīm waiting for more.

I thinked a little too in something that someone here has sayed: the experience it would proof only something to me or the ones involved in the experiment. We should try to overpass that situation in some manner.

Give ideas...



I think your idea is cool. We need one or two persons setting a target I would suggest OverDriven since he seems to be  very sceptical. Then we need at least two good projectors, I'm not good by the way. I would try a LD though. Then I would suggest that we do at least two experiments. Of course that would not proof something behind any doubt like Jeff masch said, it's not possible. But at least it would be fun and proove something to the persons involved. If nobody is partiziping I go for the 50 Dollars [Tongue]. No I won't but We could do the number thing then without money[Wink]
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« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2004, 00:47:38 »

I have OBEd many a time and had all sorts of crazy things going on outside that didn't match the time of day or current environment.

If I run into my family, they can see me and talk to me.

My OBE environment is exactly the same as my lucid dream environment.

My room only seems to be realistic when I'm NOT lucid (though I'm not sure if it's ever been remotely close to accurate or not, possibly)

Having said that, when I do the card test, it behaves like reading any text in a dream would (though I dont' recall if I have done it from a traditional OBE) I do know that the time I succeeded (partially) was a lucid dream when I remembered the card and looked for it.

At first it was the Jack of Diamonds (Spades? whatever, it doesn't matter what it was, I know that the first card I saw was correct but I don't specifically remember what the card was [i have it written down]).. but it was so fuzzy and vague that self doubt turned it into somthing else.

That something else it turned into was incorrect, but the first thing it was was indeed right.

However based upon the workings of my subconscious I seem to have an affinity for face cards and "Jack of Diamonds" seems kind of burned into it.

What puzzles me are OBEs within dreams, they feel exactly the same, right down to a T, but I'm just OBEing into the environemnt of my dream... as in I dream I'm sleeping and then I decide to OBE and I do so.

The only thing is usually I'm never sleeping in my room, but somewhere else.

Now I know dreaming about sleeping is normal since your body IS SLEEPING so I'm probably picking up on th at, but what I don't get is why I never figure out that I'm in the wrong room and such.

At any rate... I don't really have much evidence in favor of proving the "validity" of OBE's or lucid dreams. I've had my share of precognitive dreams, and things that seem extremely real... but based upon the facts that..........

I can't have legitimate conversations with people.
People that I don't know well tend to look wrong or be impossible to summong.
I cannot go to "real" places even though I vividly remember what they should look like in my head and can even bring up photograph memories of the place I want to go to (in real life, memory seems to be harder to access while out of it)
I cannot have realistic sex (because I've never had sex so my mind really struggles very much with female anatomy, etc...) and if these were real people surely it would work much like having real sex would.
I can sometimes hear people's answers being generated in my head

......

I would say they are not real but there is potential for exploring "reality" if you get really good at it or know how to silence your subconscious mind.
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« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2004, 00:47:38 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Kazbadan
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« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2004, 19:43:11 »

Hey guys! I just putted the numbers in the top of my bookshelf! Iīm waiting!

Holy Reality:
- Your case it seems very interesting, and i really would like to see an answer to that. Itīs better to post that in a different post, for people to see it.

- Itīs a little frustating to know that an obe it could be so less different fom dreams. To know that an obe can have such dream elements (reality does not match, etc). Someone answer to it pleas!


PS: I will say it again:
1- i have the numbers (and i didīt see it)
2- Answer to Holy Reality question!

Bye bye
[Smiley]
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Meedan
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« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2004, 20:40:38 »

Kazbadan and others who are disheartened by the many distortions that happen with most OBEs that you hear of here, should take note of certain things:

We know that:

Telepathy is the attempt to communicate without using 'physical' senses/organs like the mouth and ears.

Success of telepathy depends on the level of concentration you have when performing it.

'Fluctuations' or 'inaccuracies' will develop if the level of concentration is not sufficient.


My Theory:

We see things because of our eyes. When out-of-body, you have no eyes. Sight - while out of body - is the attempt to view things without using 'physical' senses/organs like the eyes.

It is a skill and 'fluctuations' or inaccuracies will appear if the level of concentration is not sufficient.

Getting the correct 'image' while out-of-body depends on the level of concentration you happen to have during that OBE.

Therefore, I am inclined to think that there is no 'Astral Plane', where things are 'different' and distorted.


I don't really want to take this off-topic, so I might start a seperate topic soon to debate whether my theory is correct or not. This is just to show why fluctuations and things that do not match reality are bound to happen.


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kiauma
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« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2004, 21:09:38 »

This Xmas one of my gifts was a Balinese Suling flute.   Recently I have been trying to learn how to play it.

I had tried to play the saxaphone in high school for a semester and then lost interest.  Trying to learn how to play this flute I can see why, though at the age I'm at now I am sticking with it.

Still, it struck me how AP is like trying to learn how to play my new flute.   Often I will hear a song and think, 'that is a great song, I would love to try to play that on my flute,' but then I will get my flute, and when I actually get the flute in my hands and try to play it it is very difficult, and the flute is very limited in range and does not seem able to do what I want.  And that is very much like my experience of AP.  I would get out, and suddenly I would have a complete new agenda, or I would be unable to maneuver as I want, or something else just wouldn't work 'right'.   I think it is a good paralell, how when in regular consciousness we think we know what we want to do, but when we get there it is actually quite different, and what we want to do isn't always do-able at the time.

I think that just like the flute there is a learning curve, and perhaps we will eventually become Masters of our new consciousness, but just like learning to play the flute, it is difficult and can be very trying at times, and sometimes it just comes down to what your particular instrument can do and what it can not.   Time will tell.

Just thought I'd share that thought.
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« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2004, 21:09:38 »



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NEone
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« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2004, 03:30:47 »

Ok, here's the way I see it. Your brain can recreate any physical perception you have ever had, or can reasonably approximate how a new physical sensation should feel. I.e. none of us have ever flown before, but our brains can take a stab at what it would be like to fly based on expectations. Or, if you've never been swimming, your brain could still make a good guess as to what it would feel like based on what it knows about water, your body etc.

Now, going on this, I had a feeling that my brain should not have been able to create on its own. I felt myself floating around my room. Then I returned to my body. When I got close to it, I felt myself located both above my body *and* simultaniously inside my body. It's a very hard sensation to describe, and I didn't really know that it was going to happen, so I didn't have any expectations of it or anything.  My point is, in my opinion, there is no way my brain could possibly independently produce this sensation because there is no event in "normal" physical reality that could even resemble such a thing. Maybe if it were something like 2 heartbeats or 4 legs or some other viable sensation it would be different, but I definitely don't think the brain in its natural state can ever *imagine* 2 points of conciousness.

I know that's not "proof" really, but still, it's something...
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Tombo
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« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2004, 13:34:08 »

Hey Kazbadan: I would suggest that you put paintings, forms or something as a target, cause numbers are very difficult to "see" since they are abstract and mutate easily in the astral. Cause If somebody guesses the numbers wrong does not mean he wasn't in your room!

NEones post reminds me of something:
I once had a "Dream" were I percieved Colors that do not exist on earth. It was a very strange feeling I knew that once I would wake up It would be impossible to take this memory back cause it was not possible to "know on earth" since it was impossible for my brain to remember it. As I awoke I felt like the memories of the colors got replaced by feelings how looking on them felt cause that was the best my brain could do with that experience. That makes my believe that there is a world outside our brains.
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« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2004, 19:18:24 »

quote:
Originally posted by NEone

Ok, here's the way I see it. Your brain can recreate any physical perception you have ever had, or can reasonably approximate how a new physical sensation should feel. I.e. none of us have ever flown before, but our brains can take a stab at what it would be like to fly based on expectations. Or, if you've never been swimming, your brain could still make a good guess as to what it would feel like based on what it knows about water, your body etc.

Now, going on this, I had a feeling that my brain should not have been able to create on its own. I felt myself floating around my room. Then I returned to my body. When I got close to it, I felt myself located both above my body *and* simultaniously inside my body. It's a very hard sensation to describe, and I didn't really know that it was going to happen, so I didn't have any expectations of it or anything.  My point is, in my opinion, there is no way my brain could possibly independently produce this sensation because there is no event in "normal" physical reality that could even resemble such a thing. Maybe if it were something like 2 heartbeats or 4 legs or some other viable sensation it would be different, but I definitely don't think the brain in its natural state can ever *imagine* 2 points of conciousness.

I know that's not "proof" really, but still, it's something...



well we can take into account various theories:
freud and his views of the unconscious
bruce's idea of mind split
... well I guess those are the only two I can think of.

But it does seem like it is indeed possible to have multiple consciousnesses running at the same time, in fact I have this memory that I just triggered in my head about this subject, and I'm not sure where it came from. I believe I was riding in a car thinking about how I could have many different levels of consciousness active but am only confined to one at a time and thus tend to only have that consciousnesses memories.... yes I remember now, I was thinking about something someone posted on these boards about Monroe supposedly being able to choose whether he wanted to occupy his physical/astral body but while he was doing one the other would still be active, so like theoerteically if he was doing something boring he could leave the body and let his normal body mind continue doing whatever it was it was doing.

Which is an interesting thought...

but at any rate you most certainly have two "bodies" while dreaming, and your physical body is not completely shut down, it is still somewhat receiving sensory information as if something happened to it you would need to wake up instantly to be able to respond.

So with that in mind it is entirely conceivable that the brain could easily merge your physical senses with your dream senses, this is evident when you're drooling in your sleep and dream about eating and smearing sauce all over your face, only to wake up and feeling that the "sauce" you felt was actually on your physical body.

Or finding yourself lying on your side doing something in the dream then it spontaneously ends and you're in the same position.

So since these happen easily it's not hard to think that you could simulatenously feel your sleeping body while you were active in your dream if you focused on it or were in a light stage of sleep.

Taking into account the "unconscious" (yes it exists more or less but whether it is an actual separate entity responsible for dreaming and things like that is up to debate) it would seem that sections of your mind are divided up into monitoring your body and since you are in an altered state of consciousness while dreaming it would theoretically make sense that you could become aware of those parts of consciousness.


anyway I'd like to mention that all the OBE's I've had have been of the waking induced variety and I have still yet to be able to gain control of the hypnagogic state in the middle of the day despite intense attempts at focusing... so that may have something to do with the dream like qualities of my experiences.
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Kazbadan
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« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2004, 17:06:28 »

quote:
Originally posted by holy reality
I have still yet to be able to gain control of the hypnagogic state in the middle of the day despite intense attempts at focusing... so that may have something to do with the dream like qualities of my experiences.



What do you mean by controling the hypnagogic state during the day? do you have hallucinations or something?!
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holy reality
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« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2004, 18:15:56 »

quote:
Originally posted by Kazbadan

quote:
Originally posted by holy reality
I have still yet to be able to gain control of the hypnagogic state in the middle of the day despite intense attempts at focusing... so that may have something to do with the dream like qualities of my experiences.



What do you mean by controling the hypnagogic state during the day? do you have hallucinations or something?!



No, I meant that I cannot control the hypnagogic state when I try to project during the day like I sometimes can in the mornings... and that most of my OBEs are nestled between dreams so that could account for less realism.

This is what I said:

quote:

anyway I'd like to mention that all the OBE's I've had have been of the waking induced variety and I have still yet to be able to gain control of the hypnagogic state in the middle of the day despite intense attempts at focusing... so that may have something to do with the dream like qualities of my experience


but if you want to know in more detail what i'm talking about i recently made a thread about it.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10305
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Kazbadan
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« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2004, 16:51:15 »

I putted the numbers in my room, and still waiting for an ober to see it...
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Tombo
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« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2004, 07:35:56 »

The question is, is anybody trying to see them at all?! maybe you should find somebody who is really willing to do the test and says so, otherwise I wouldn't be surprised if nobody answers[Sad]

I would try to make a test if you paint an easy but uncommon geometric figure on a piece of paper and place it in your bedroom. I wouldn't do a OBE's though but a LD. Don't know if it would work, but I had luck in the past with such an experiment. who knows maybe I would be able to do it again.
What do you think?
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Kazbadan
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« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2004, 19:31:31 »

Itīs a good idea, but the problem is that figures and images always give controversial results. A number itīs something more exact.

I donīt know...

There is anyone here that wanna make the test?!

What about you, Tombodenman, if i use figures would you make the test?!
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« Reply #63 on: February 05, 2004, 10:15:54 »

If you paint something( cloud, pyramid, circle, tree or something) I'll try to get it. Try to find something simple but unlikely to hit by chance.
Say when your ready and then I'll try within a week, o.k.?
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« Reply #64 on: February 05, 2004, 15:32:13 »

Regarding this experiment (and any others): I'd just like to suggest that anyone who tries should not guess or go by a 'feeling' of what the target was.

You either saw what the target was, or you didn't. Try to be certain of what you saw, before naming the target.
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« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2004, 17:07:28 »

the other day I was being a lazy student and hitting my snooze button over and over on my alarm for about two hours (every six minutes) I have found that this contantly keeps you in that extremley strange zone of light sleep but intense dreams...its pretty fun you should try it...now this isn't total proof  but i was aware that i'd arranged to go indoor rock climbing that afternoon and remember being concerned that there might not be many ropes up on the routes which limits what you can climb (if you don't have your own rope) with that in mind my thought morphed into another dream/concept type thing where i was at the climbing centre and i could see one corner and noted that there where a few ropes up...good stuff! i woke up and didn't think too much about it, as i'm always having dreams like that.
Anyway I met my mate and drove to the centre and when we got there I was struck by the way that the routes with ropes up were the ones i'd seen (the routes and ropes change all the time ramdomly) anyway it isn't of course proof on totality, but it was a nice idea to think i had a little peak in my dream to see if they were there or not...anyway ramble on......[Tongue]
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Kazbadan
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« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2004, 17:18:47 »

Ok, i will try that one of paitings on next week maybe, since now iīm too busy. Until there i will not get out the numbers from the book shelf. So until the next week anyone could try to see it.

Li Yun: sometimes that kind of dreams happens with me too. Itīs a nice sleep stage since your dreams are very real and vivid. I think that stage itīs responsible too for the hypnagogic hallucinations.

I think that actually many people can mislead itself by thinking that such dreams are obes. I even had some dreams in wich i was getting out from my body or from my bed and walk around there...but they were not the "normal" obes  (the ones similar to near death experiences...lucid ones). They were just dreams and iīm shure of that.

Until now i only  had 2 almost-obes experiences.
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« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2004, 17:31:48 »

hi Kazbadan; i was just wondering, whats an oboes dream/experinece?
i've not heard of it before and i'm really intertesed in dreams...(probably cos i spend so much time asleep!!!)[|)]
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« Reply #68 on: February 05, 2004, 23:28:03 »

Hi

I didn't have time enough to read through all the pages so, If this has already been mentioned, then it was my mistake.

Wouldn't it be proof enough if you saw your own body, lying in bed (or wherever you ap)? To actually be able to see your own body when you know for a fact that you are outside of it. Wouldn't that be proof enough?

Kazbadan: Is that a ball lightning?
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holy reality
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« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2004, 00:05:14 »

quote:
Originally posted by Nomus

Hi

I didn't have time enough to read through all the pages so, If this has already been mentioned, then it was my mistake.

Wouldn't it be proof enough if you saw your own body, lying in bed (or wherever you ap)? To actually be able to see your own body when you know for a fact that you are outside of it. Wouldn't that be proof enough?

Kazbadan: Is that a ball lightning?




Well it would be nice..... and frankly it hasn't really happened to me that I can vividly recall.. I remember forcing my body onto the bed by  expecting it to be there and thinking "okay my body HAS to be in my bed" but I didn't look quite right and after much inspection I noted that my clothes were different than what I was wearing at the time.

That's kind of the same way I encountered astral feedback... I dreamed I had gone OBE and thought "hmm I wonder if astral feedback is real, let's see" and I expected something to happen... it did and it was weird, painful, and cool... but of course it was based entirely upon what Bruce describes it to be, hence I don't know that that is any real "proof" ..

plus it was all going on within a dream.

I really really really really really want to be able to go to real places in the physical realm and see what is happening in them in real time... like find a hot girls house and explore it, maybe enter her dreams or try to pull her out of her body.

Or maybe like...go to Magic Mountain and ride REALISTIC recreations of the rides there.

That would own.
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« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2004, 05:56:47 »

I'm very surprised so many don't care for proof... hard evidence was my main goal for years.  I want to KNOW my experiences are real, because if they're not, they're almost a waste.  They may teach spiritual lessons, but what good is that if there is no spirit world and it's all in my head?  That old song "I'm dreaming my life away" bugged me enough to drive me to find proof.  
I was very lucky to get proof on my first OBE.  I 'fell' out of dream state into my kitchen.  I noticed my puzzle set was still sprawled out, and picked up a piece, noting the insanely real texture and appearance.  I looked up to the window, and the trees were black(backlit) and leafless against a dark blue sky.  My dad coughed and it woke me up, so I immediately went to check.  The view out the window was exact, this was right after sunset when the colors change every few minutes, and in January.  But - the puzzle had been put away two weeks ago.  
Everything I've ever read says when you OBE to real time, it's not quite the physical plane.  Matter radiates etheric energy and this is all we can percieve.  The puzzle had been left out a long time, and I'd put many hours of mental effort into it.  Add this to Bruce's theory of the brain making sense of two data streams (dreaming mind and OBE mind) by mixing them into one, making dream imagery mesh with your genuine experience, and it explains times when you talk to people with no memory of it or things are off.  
That experience felt 100% real and I had a strong dose of personal proof from the window, but even then I doubted.  It could still have been coincidence.  So I kept trying, and have had much success-
If all you want is proof that you're not imagining things, try for remote viewing instead.  It's much quicker, less effort, and still gains solid evidence.  
The best evidence is when you see a place you know for a fact you've never been.  Old memories of your back yard, or knowing someone so well you can accurately predict what they're doing, discount proof.  I went online all the time on chats, where people are shy about giving out too much personal information, you can connect to who they are well, and I've never even been in the state that they're in.
-I RV'd my online friend at a pool party, sitting on the edge quietly, then leaving to a small room.  I also saw a short, blonde, spiky hair'ed guy from above.  All confirmed, as well as the time of the event.
-I RV'd the same guy and saw a still image of what I thought was him, blurry, at the bottom of some stairs wearing a tshirt and shorts of certain colors (its been a few years).  Online he said that's not even near what he's wearing and we discounted it.  The next morning he saw his dad come down the stairs wearing exactly that.
-I saw a room with blue carpet in Canada, confirmed.
-While dozing off on the couch and thinking about another Canadian, I vividly saw a small 4way stop intersection with a silver car turning right, and it had it's lights on in the daytime.  Confirmed, and I learned some cars have that feature built in...
Up until now, it's remotely possible that these people all happened to lie and confirm to appease me.  But then I had another experience:
I was half awake in bed and felt a presence by my bedside.  He touched my left cheek, and I went into a created dream after that.  A week later when he was back from vacation, he told me of his dream, on the same day: I was in my room in my chair, with a tear on my left cheek that he wiped off.  The room was fuzzy but his description was mostly correct.  The desk was between two doors, I had a 'tv moniter' behind me (comp screen), and he said I had a mirror to my left and a window to my right.  The truth is reversed, but later he showed me a digital pic that happened to include a picture of his window.  It had moulding around it similar to my mirror, and my window has none.  And, I'd been in sad mood thinking of him at that moment.

As if that wasn't enough... this next one just sold me.  I never doubted after this one.  I met a shy guy in Washington state from an old OBE board.  He only told me his first name and state, and that he was not near the beach.  From talking I knew he had a dog and often said he's going 'out to the deck' in his backyard.  We tried testing telepathy with a very poor success rate and always agreed to try meeting for proof.
After trying for quite a while, I was finally obe, AND remembered to try to see him.  I thought 'washington' and focused on my idea of him.  I felt fast movement and the imagery was a little dreamlike but I felt like I was following the Western coast, then I shot up high and looked down at what really looked like a satellite image of the Washington Penninsula, mostly green with little white specks for building clusters.  I focused again on my idea of him, turned East, and visualized a line going straight to him.  I zoomed down and eastward until I was over a clearing in the trees.  I saw a swimming pool but it morphed away as I focused on the house and landed.  I was in a clearing with patchy grass surrounded by tall pine trees.  The wooden deck was just a deck now.  The house had a single, small window facing the deck.  There was a bluish grey truck parked on the grass, and I went over to look in.  In the cabin was something green, indiscernable.  I felt like I was about to wake up, and as I did I saw a shot of the front yard's driveway with an old red fourdoor car in it.  I immediately wrote down all the facts so my memory could not warp them later.  When I talked to him online, he was shocked and confirmed everything - backyard faces west, one small window, truck and color, and the red car was rare - a relative's, visiting the day before xmas.  His dad, at that time, was asleep in his truck, wearing a green sweater.  There was no pool and I may have been off on the roof color, but the deck was the only thing I was 'expecting' to find, and "pool deck" is a more common use for a deck.

Sadly my excitement and ambition in trying for an OBE died off some after this, and I've been more interested in the astral.  The few times I've made it, it felt just a bit more 'real' than this 'reality'.  Problem is, unless I meet a fellow OBE'er or relative with secrets there, I see no possible way to prove it.  But at least now I don't have to.  I'll resort to assuming that if experience A feels just like reality and is confirmed, then experience B that feels even more real must too be real.  

In proving things to other people, trust is the key issue.  I first have to trust that the people confirming things to me are truthful, then you have to trust that I am.  Even if there was a scientific study and it was proven, you could say the scientists themselves are faking.  I don't think it is, but the Crossing Over show could be an organized hoax.  If I never had my own experience, I think the only one I'd trust would be if someone finally wins that million dollar challenge in Australia Smiley  I think no one's won yet because they expect a 100% reliability rating.  

I've had many dreams where I look at a clock or book and the characters go all crazy.  I wouldn't bother with a number test.  One time I did try, and I got 7 different possible combinations.  Again the problem would be the card is a new object, and would take time to form a copy in the etheric.  I think my brother still has a bunk bed in the etheric.  Would a description of the more solid objects in your room be enough?  And is there any way the experiement could be repeated for further cash?  Imagine making a salary out of OBEing.. there's your practical application!  heheh.
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stephen~
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« Reply #71 on: February 06, 2004, 08:55:11 »

Nice post and one that I agree with completely. Very interesting RV and proof experiences btw.

Sadly my excitement and ambition in trying for an OBE died off some after this, and I've been more interested in the astral. The few times I've made it, it felt just a bit more 'real' than this 'reality'

I think real time projections do become a little unexciting in the end, once you've moved around a bit, looked in wonder at the similarity and disimilarity with the physical world, marvelled at the conclusion that you appear to have a real life outside your body, you realise that there's not actually much else to do, is there? Invisible, alone and unable to interact with anything, I also get the feeling we don't quite belong there and if it lasted any great length of time it would become tedious. Just the thought of spending eternity wandering around the real-time zone is quite disturbing. Actual astral projection may be even more impossible to prove, but at least you feel 'involved', that you belong there. It does seem more real in a sense, even though it can be completely indescribable at times.

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Tombo
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« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2004, 10:16:06 »

Hey stephen! How do I get to the astralplanes?
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FistOfFury
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« Reply #73 on: February 06, 2004, 12:24:19 »

(I haven't read the whole thread, scuse me if I repeat something)

Can you hear music while OBE/Ap'ing? Music is more tied to emotion, and you guys are trying to proove things with the physical. AP'ing is more linked to the emotions, then the physical.

You could do this. Go in seperate secluded room in your house, and turn on the radio to a station, and record it with a brand new recording tape. Put the volume loud, but low enough so that you can't hear it from the room you project in. Then go back to the room you will be projecting in. Project. Go to the room with the music, and memorize the song/commercial you hear. Wake up and go back and rewind the tape, and see if the song/commercial you heard while projecting is recorded on the tape. Smiley

This might not prove anything, but it would be fun to try.
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Kazbadan
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« Reply #74 on: February 06, 2004, 17:34:10 »

Li Yun: i rally didnīt understand your question. Are you asking what is an OBE?! Obe itīs "out of body experience". Many people argue (and iīm inclined to believe in that even more) that are able to get out (there souls) and go around there and see things. I donīt wanna to explain more because i donīt have shure wich is your question and it would be a waste of time explaining sometime that you didnīt ask for. Please, reformulate your question.

Nomus:Yes, the image itīs based on ball lightning from Magic the Gathering, a nice game. I used to be a player when younger. The image was made by me in the computer and iīve choosen it because itīs easy to make (in a program like 3dstudio). Indeed, red (the "color" card of the ball lightning) itīs not my color. I used to play a lot with blue and with decks invented by me...not like now that everybody uses decks from world champions. Do you play MtG too?!

Person: Nice report that ones, they are interesting....do you wanna to see the numbers in my room ?! please [Cheesy]
BTW: why do you say that obes in RTZ are sad?! I love to walk or ride in bike in a little wood near my home. Iīm always riding there and in other places that are close ( 1 to 3 miles)  to my home. Iīm always seeing the same and never get bored.

I mean, if doing that in my carnal body itīs nice, i just canīt imagine the pleasure of doing the same in even better conditions:
- First: i could fly. Thatīs amazing! Flying itīs just great! The sensation of being greatly high in the sky, touching the clouds and look to the world below me...and suddenly make a nose dive...just great!

- Second: you are not in your carnal body: you are much more energetic and light than ever. You donīt have all the solid and carnal preocupations that you have while in the physical body.

-Third: you can go anywhere: if iīm never get bored (and even stay ecstatic) while seeing the same thinks ( the little wood and the river near my home ) so, i would be more happy if i could see great places like the Great Canyon, Yosemit, Amazon, and much others places. And this with the ability of flying (good, very good!) and with (maybe, iīm not shure because never AP) a more refined and lucid vision (is that so?!).

So, why do you say that AP on RTZ is sad? Is that because the astral planes are even great?! How do the like (describe them i would like to know more..)?! Are they even more real?!

thanks

PS: iīm waiting for obers to see the numbers: just think in "Portugal" and Kazbadan (there is only one in the world: i invented the name!) [Wink]
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