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Author Topic: Proof Of OBE - and/or - How to Win 1 Milion $  (Read 23466 times)
Mobius
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« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2002, 06:04:34 »

Mj 12,thanks mate,I had the anglefire link,but the zammit link I didn't,very cool & good to see something in print that was reinforcing what we were saying.
Big money is involved here & one of the unfortunate side effects of science is,if you want to get a grant or apply for funds,you must prove why the money should go to you & not someone else.So even though science appears to be all under one big brotherhood umbrella,that's not the case,most fields of research or methods practiced,will be visciously opposed to each other.

I don't know about Robert's abilities except for what is written in his book & in here,but for me,the relative ease that I can fall into an OBE is largely dependent on my home,it's feel,my bed,my lounge & conditions.I have had some success with OBE's away from home & different surroundings,but nowhere near the ease I have at home.So imagine going to one of these staged money giveaway, science/religion verses the astral & trying to induce an OBE with all these lights & camera's rolling & T.V set  which is stacked highly against the astral traveller.So that naturally the subject will fail & they can announce to everyone "Well that proves it folks,we can see that statistically & scientifically,there is no basis to this OBE concept whatsoever,so all the sponsors & financial institutions have nothing to worry about,keep the money rollin. OK now that we have Mr Bruces head,we can tell all the people he has helped,that it was all in their heads,who's next?".

Good journeys all

Mobius

 
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Ashfo
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« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2002, 06:23:53 »

This was actually done under lab conditions by Miss "Z" and someone else.

She successfully read a 5-digit number placed 5foot above her head.

I have a website with a (rather large) essay which includes this info... Ill see if I can find it.

- Ashfo

 
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The Astral Pulse
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2002, 06:23:53 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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michael
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« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2002, 12:50:36 »

Hi Ashfo..hate to quibble but the experiment you mention was conducted in the late 60's by Dr Charles tart( who also tested robert monroe)..and although tart is extremely sympatheitc and basically a beleiver in psychic powers etc...discounted the experiment where the woman read the 5 digit number since it turned out that she could have read the number due to it reflecting from something or the other..so it invalidated the experiment..in saying that the article by the guy answering sceptics is really excellent....
michael

 
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Atlas
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« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2002, 00:44:17 »

Hi Mobius

>>with all these lights & camera's rolling & T.V set<<

Again, I think this is an assumption that is not necessarily true. I can't imagine a scientist wouldnt afford the test subject all the conditions they require to do the OBE. It's not like they'd through them in some studio with a spot light and an audience.


>> which is stacked highly against the astral traveller.So that naturally the subject will fail & they can announce to everyone "Well that proves it folks,we can see that statistically & scientifically,there is no basis to this OBE concept whatsoever,so all the sponsors & financial institutions have nothing to worry about,keep the money rollin. OK now that we have Mr Bruces head,we can tell all the people he has helped,that it was all in their heads,who's next?".<<

The other problem here is that you have people like RB, who I respect, but who make their bread and butter with this stuff. I can understand why he might not want to subject himself to this kind of test because if he fails or can't perform, his living goes down the drain. It's only smart for him to say no.  BUT...not everyone who successfully OBEs regularly is making a living off of it or has some kind of "guru" status, nor do you have to be some kind of ascended spirit to have frequent/controlled OBEs. These are the people I would think would gladly come forward, at least ONE of them, and take this risk to win a bunch of money. So you fail the test...big deal. All you have to tell your friends was that you were hoping you'd luck out and win a million bucks.

Atlas


 
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Mobius
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« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2002, 03:48:53 »

Hey Atlas

Well I,m not sure what these scientists are willing to accept as far as conditions go,but going by a recent debunking fest held here in Australia,well last year,this famous skeptic (I forget his name)from the USA had a $1 million reward for these people who claimed to have healing abilities.After these people were interviewed countless times on current affairs programs before hand & people testified to being healed from these people.

Regardless of all this & requests for conditions which suited the practicioners,they were denied & were told that it was the skeptics money up for grabs here & they require what they call a controlled environment in which to scientifically evaluate the process effectively.This equated into these people being put up on stage with 1 believing subject & 2 skeptical subjects,on stage,with lights,camera's & live audience.

After the practicioners were given a couple of minutes to work on each subject,they were asked did they feel any different & had their pain or discomfort eased.Of course 1 said yes & 2 said no & the visiting skeptic announced to everyone that "Statistically this proves that there is no correlation & the odds of actually being healed is blah,blah,blah"  Afterwards the healers were ridiculed & their previous interviews were replayed in a condescending manner.

As far as I know the scientists still havn't taken up the offer to prove that it DOESNT happen (OBE,s) a $1 million reward as well,why don't they enter into the debate on a level playing field?

The same people who have shares in these massive science based companies also have major share ownership of the media & ultimately nearly everything you see or read.Why do people need a scientist to say it's true?why don't people put some time & effort into it's validity for themselves?

Good journeys

Mobius

 
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« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2002, 03:48:53 »



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Atlas
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« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2002, 05:24:41 »

>>Why do people need a scientist to say it's true?why don't people put some time & effort into it's validity for themselves?<<

Well, I for one have spent hours upon hours trying to test its validity for myself with 0 results, so by that I would have to say it is not valid. However, i do believe it is a real phenomenon, that's why for confirmation I would like to see some controlled, consistent successful tests by a scientist who has access to a successful OBEer since I do not.

>>As far as I know the scientists still havn't taken up the offer to prove that it DOESNT happen (OBE,s) a $1 million reward as well,why don't they enter into the debate on a level playing field?<<

Well, I think the burden of proof here is on the OBEers. I mean I could say i think Saturn is made of cheese but it's up to me to offer proof, not the scientists to prove that it ISNT.

cya

Atlas



 
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Adrian
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« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2002, 07:54:24 »

Greetings Atlas!

It is not encumbent on OBE capable people to prove anything at all to anyone - because they are not disputing anything, and they know OBE is a fact, not speculation. It is science that is skeptical, because OBE is, for the most part, outside of their sphere of understanding, which for the most part is within the physical universe. Accordingly, the burden of proof that OBE and other dimensions of reality does not really exist is with them, if that is what they prefer to believe.

That is not to say that these facts should not be made readily available to all those who seek the truth - indeed - that is the main mission of The Astral Pulse. But at the final analysis - those that genuinely seek the truth will find the truth, regardless of what the scientists and skeptics have to say.

With best regards,

Adrian.


 
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Vincit Omnia Veritas
alfa_33au
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« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2002, 09:41:59 »

Amir,

Oh funny,

Intriguing at the same time.
I must say, one million, sounds like poor wage
.
The real time zone thought is a good start,  seems to me like possibily a way to prove it.
Im not so sure about the other planes though.

Few more million maybe?

Go Robert, you can do it.  I will pray for you.

Paola (alfa_33au_
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alfa_33au
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« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2002, 11:48:11 »

Science is in a dicotomy, like all things.
It has to be open to expect new information, but at the same time the rules of the box apply.
Could it be that science is always one or two steps behind , like evolution has shown time and time again?
like surely reality comes first then science.
And then there is channelling.  I have read channeled information for years and have sprung and grown like a flower.  In this world a rare thing.

Aint it sweet to be alive right now and conscious of it.  lol

Paola (alfa_33au)

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Lostpawn
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« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2002, 13:02:34 »

Ok. I agree and disagree on various stuff here. From what I've read about Robert in his postings, this is my conclusions (and if some or many points are wrong, please feel free to correct me).

1. Everybody needs money. To say money is not important is a lie. However, to say that money in itself is a goal that is useless to strive for, is IMO more accurate. As I have understood it, Robert needs money to build better facilities and to build his reserach center, and I think 1M dollars would make those plans much easier.

Therefore - the argument that money is not important is not a valid argument as to why one should not accept the challange

2. If I remember correctly, Robert also said that he is planning on prooving the OBE phenomenon when he starts his research center.

Therefore - the argument that spiritual people doesn't want to prove psychic phenomenon is not a valid argument as to why one should not accept the challenge

Now, the better arguments IMO are:

3. One doesn't want to give up ones private life and live in the focus of the media.

4. Randis way of prooving psychic phenomenon can be questioined hard, and he might discredit the person or arrange so the experiments fail.


In closing: I would love to see RB or anyone else prove OBE. But since RB says that he will start a research center in the future, I guess we just have to wait. And that seems to me be a much better way than going to America and  the amazing Randi. Smiley

Regards,
Daniel

 
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Frank
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« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2002, 17:45:07 »

quote:
Originally posted by Atlas:
>>Why do people need a scientist to say it's true?why don't people put some time & effort into it's validity for themselves?<<

Well, I for one have spent hours upon hours trying to test its validity for myself with 0 results, so by that I would have to say it is not valid. However, i do believe it is a real phenomenon, that's why for confirmation I would like to see some controlled, consistent successful tests by a scientist who has access to a successful OBEer since I do not.

>>As far as I know the scientists still havn't taken up the offer to prove that it DOESNT happen (OBE,s) a $1 million reward as well,why don't they enter into the debate on a level playing field?<<

Well, I think the burden of proof here is on the OBEers. I mean I could say i think Saturn is made of cheese but it's up to me to offer proof, not the scientists to prove that it ISNT.

cya

Atlas





You could well say that Saturn is made of cheese. But on the subject of "Saturn" there is evidence that obe research told of various factual aspects of this planet *before* the NASA space probe.

It's also rather comical to me, being a scientist, and who recounts to this BBS my controlled, consistent attempts at performing various obe states that you would ask for further "proof".

Faith is sadly lacking in you, my friend.

Yours,
Frank



 
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Mobius
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« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2002, 22:08:45 »

G,day all

Lost spawn,not sure if you have read through all the posts on this subject,but we have allready stated your No.3 & No.4 questions & is the crux of what we are arguing here.The idea of the institute by RB & proving OBE's on his own terms is exactly what the skeptics DON'T want.

The skeptics,science & religous organisations (that don't allready incorporate this concept of non-physical bodies) are quite aware of the drop in numbers of people joining up,the money draining away from where they want it to be & into books like Astral Dynamics or TMI. In a way it benefits people dealing in metaphysics to be as abstract as a religion,that way they can't rush in with the spooks & claim where's the proof? As most religions operating today are based on theory & practical proof cannot be demonstrated.In respect to Christianity,Buddhism,Mohhamed,Allah,.....where's the proof? I don't see any Gods,look I'll even afford you perfect lab conditions or whatever you require to prove you have some connection with God,Jesus,Buddha,Allah or Vishnu.
If you don't guess the number I have in the box,not only don,t you not win $1 Million,but it will PROVE you don't have a connection with these deities & your religion or beliefs is a lie.

Check out this link & more importantly the bit near the bottom where it talks about physicists working on atoms & particles found that their own thoughts or focus affected the experiment.

http://www.davedavies.com/splanet/realms.htm

Good journey's

Mobius

 
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manfred
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« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2002, 22:18:13 »

Whatever religion you are from...it is all love anyway. Regardless any level starting 24 to 26 (the religious belief system territories as defined and mapped by TMI) It is a all love.

As for vatican...well in their huge library with all kinds of miracles they already know how to and all that.

What religion you are from depends entirely on you noone else.

Regards,

Manfred

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Mobius
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« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2002, 00:49:31 »

Hi Manfred

Yes that is the message that most religions convey,one of love,that is what they would like people to perceive.So many are the epitome of a good person,but the few who have financial control manipulate the information.Why not just be good outright? & do the right thing, always,when other people are involved,that comes naturally to us all & children are born with it & it is only when they are taught,these things that it becomes part of their nature.I bet you could walk into any kindergarten in the world & gather a classroom of kids to come up with a set of ten commandments we all should live by & they would probably tell us that 1) you shouldn't kill people or kill anything you don't need to. 2) you should probably treat other people the way you would like them to treat you & many other things that are just intrinsic to us anyway.

I don't discourage anyone from being in any religion or condemn them for doing so,we all have our own opinions, beliefs & relative freedom of choice,the only thing I suggest is thoroughly read their religious texts,find out about their references they have used in their texts,cross check them,practice it if need be, don't just accept it on face value.

Here is another link with some excellent articles on OBE's, Robert Bruce is in there as well.Also check out the library on this site,very cool & check out their link page,absolutely massive & very comprehensive.

http://www.newage.com.au

http://www.newage.com.au/library.pages/oobe.html

http://www.newage.com.au/library.html

Good journeys all

Mobius

 
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Atlas
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« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2002, 05:52:45 »

>>It's also rather comical to me, being a scientist, and who recounts to this BBS my controlled, consistent attempts at performing various obe states that you would ask for further "proof".

Faith is sadly lacking in you, my friend. <<

Frank, no offense meant here mate but I find your claim at being a scientist questionable if you mention "faith". Faith in something requires that it not be provable or have evidence otherwise you "know" it and it is no longer a matter of faith. Science is about facts, reason, rationality, evidence. NOT faith. Faith is the realm of religion and mysticism, not science.

Experiments performed by you on yourself can't just be accepted you know. There's no way to avoid bias in that circumstance. Here's an experiment. I will give you my address, We can use TerraServer so that you know how to get here, and I will paste a 5 digit number on my front door. Go into the real time zone and come read it. Now THERE is an experiment!

And like i've said, my FAITH , for better or worse, is STRONG! BECAUSE, despite my 0 success rate, despite my issues with this in terms of logic and rationality, I STILL believe this a true phenomenon. That's pretty much faith, since everything rational is telling me this is a load of malarkey. Smiley

Thanks for the post. Cya

Atlas


 
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Atlas
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« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2002, 06:03:53 »

>>It is not encumbent on OBE capable people to prove anything at all to anyone - because they are not disputing anything, and they know OBE is a fact, not speculation. It is science that is skeptical, because OBE is, for the most part, outside of their sphere of understanding, which for the most part is within the physical universe. Accordingly, the burden of proof that OBE and other dimensions of reality does not really exist is with them, if that is what they prefer to believe.<<

I am not saying OBEers have a duty to prove anything. HOWEVER, i do believe that if the burden of proof rests on anyone, it is on the OBEers, not the scientists to DISPROVE it. It's not that they are disputing anything, but they are putting something ENTIRELY new on the scientifiic table. They are claiming there is a second "energy" body that dislogdes during an obe and travels around. The burden of proof is on them, otherwise, scientists would be busy 24/7 trying to disprove claims about time travel, ufo's, dragons, moon bases, unicorns, and leprechauns. If someone can obtain FACTUAL data about the physcal dimension through the obe experience (through real time zone exploriation), s/he should have no qualms about proving it under scientific conditions. I know I would.

Thanks for the post,

Atlas



 
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steveb
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« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2002, 07:24:55 »

Well I cant say that i can personaly see it being proven in the near future. It's appears simalar to the ufo problem. Lets imagine there are et's out there, they land(visit) here,there advanced(true beings if you like).  
            Would a government go public, what would the government tell the populas. They (government) could say, hey wev'e been talking to some et's, there more adanced than us, they have no material wanting's,no greed,lust,envy,anger ect ect, to get to the level that there at we have to try and give up our materelistic wantings(attachments) ect.
            I would assume that most individuals reading this post could understand the above due to the fact that you have in one way or another been drawn to this site, but the problem would be that the genaral populas would not.
             I peronally think that there is some sort of spirtual law in place,I know people who have used psi capabilities for the wrong reasons,only to have those capabilities reduce or stop alltogether.

Anyhow ,just my thought's.


Regards  Steve



 
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Frank
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« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2002, 10:34:07 »

quote:
Originally posted by Atlas:
>>It's also rather comical to me, being a scientist, and who recounts to this BBS my controlled, consistent attempts at performing various obe states that you would ask for further "proof".

Faith is sadly lacking in you, my friend. <<

Frank, no offense meant here mate but I find your claim at being a scientist questionable if you mention "faith". Faith in something requires that it not be provable or have evidence otherwise you "know" it and it is no longer a matter of faith. Science is about facts, reason, rationality, evidence. NOT faith. Faith is the realm of religion and mysticism, not science.

Experiments performed by you on yourself can't just be accepted you know. There's no way to avoid bias in that circumstance. Here's an experiment. I will give you my address, We can use TerraServer so that you know how to get here, and I will paste a 5 digit number on my front door. Go into the real time zone and come read it. Now THERE is an experiment!

And like i've said, my FAITH , for better or worse, is STRONG! BECAUSE, despite my 0 success rate, despite my issues with this in terms of logic and rationality, I STILL believe this a true phenomenon. That's pretty much faith, since everything rational is telling me this is a load of malarkey. Smiley

Thanks for the post. Cya

Atlas




No offence taken. I much prefer communicating with people who have the courage to speak their mind.

My Collins dictionary gives the primary meaning of the word Faith as: A strong or unshakeable belief in something. Which is how I meant the word to be used.

Yes, I do readily admit the same word can have religious connotations. Llike, a belief in something unproven such as the existence of some kind of God: which appears to be the context in which you assume I have used it. But my use of the word was solely as given above.

There is nothing wrong with experimenting on oneself. Provided any inherrent biases are ironed out of whatever conclusion(s) I happen to make, I see no harm in it.

As for popping over to your house, I've said before that travelling to a *specific* place in the RT zone is a tricky thing to do. It's something I currently find impossible. That's precisely why I have been working on slowing down my normal projection process in order to try and make it more controllable.

It was only fairly recently that I managed to project into the RT zone. That was after literally hundreds of projections into the Astral. I thought it was weird, at first, but I got a lot of comfort from the fact that in AD Mr Bruce tells of how his experiences had been primarily in the RT zone. Which was virtually the exact opposite of what I experienced. So I thought, well, that's not quite so freaky after all.    

You never know, sometime soon I might take you up on your offer.  Smiley

Yours,
Frank

 


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manfred
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« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2002, 12:39:35 »

quote:
Why not just be good outright?


By Mobius


Mobius that is a part of you...a part that only wants to do good. It is never noble of you though Smiley

Regards,

Manfred

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Atlas
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« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2002, 17:13:23 »

>>You never know, sometime soon I might take you up on your offer. Smiley<<

hey man, if you are ever ready, just let me know.
That goes for anyone else too. No reward money here though hehe

Atlas


 
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« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2002, 17:58:33 »

>>If you don't guess the number I have in the box,not only don,t you not win $1 Million,but it will PROVE you don't have a connection with these deities & your religion or beliefs is a lie.<<

I'm not sure this is the same thing as asking an OBEer to read a number in a box. If you did it through a religious deity, the success of the experiment relies on the deity, not the person communicating with the deity, whose claim it is you are trying to prove. So I may be talking to jesus every day, but he may not want to read your number.

With an OBEer, the success of the experiment depends purely on him and his intentions(granting that the person doing the experiment with him is objective and upright and following the correct scientific protocols), not some intermediary.

>>Check out this link & more importantly the bit near the bottom where it talks about physicists working on atoms & particles found that their own thoughts or focus affected the experiment.<<

This is very true especially in the world of quantum physics. No small number of scientists are pretty freaked out by what they are finding here. What they are finding seems to be that consciousness has a direct effect on physical reality. A quantum particle can be 0 AND 1 at the same time, take path A AND path B simultaneously, until a conscious observation forces that particle to decide which path it actually took. It's called quantum decoherence when the particle "makes a decision".  It's very strange and fascinating if you ask me. It seems that all of reality is constantly being rendered by conscious observation.

Atlas


 
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Frank
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« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2002, 18:17:24 »



...... And, hopefully, some time soon, they will conclude that what we Physical beings call "thought" is a primary energy. Smiley

Yours,
Frank

 
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Mobius
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« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2002, 03:59:55 »

G,day Atlas

Sure the quote of mine you picked out is a generalisation & oversimplified,but you yourself said"I may be talking to Jesus everyday,but he may not want to read your number".That's a convenient excuse they can use as a crutch isn't it? You talk to Jesus everday,really? what does he say?why wont he tell me the number? can't he do it? or is he being a snob? when you talk to him,does he answer you back?What's his birthday?.

This wouldn't work so well for the OBE,er,could you imagine "Oh,sorry I couldn't  tap into the Astral today,but that doesn't mean I can't do it"
"Ahaaa!" says the science skeptic hosting the show",hocus pocus folks,all talk & no proof" as the crowd forcibly laughs to feel part of the scene & not to stand out as a loony if they speak up.

This stuff on quantum physics IS really interesting isn't it? I think it's just a pity that not enough scientists read up on the metaphysical sides of things & utilise some of their possibilties.So many scientists are trapped in their own belief systems & are almost the reciprocal of religion & the dedicated theologian.Never ever considering another point of view or concept,because their beliefs have told them that there is no point,as whatever they are involved in is the only possibility.I would have loved to have a video camera back in the days when the majority of scientists said that the sun orbited the earth & not the other way around & the look on the faces of the scientists who said the earth was flat & you would sail off the end & die.What would have been going through their minds when their belief bubble was burst.So many scientists ARE really blown away by the thought that thought affects things,but why should they be?go with the flow I say,don't resist,just accept it & work with it's possibilities.

I hope to be among a different breed of scientist myself as I have allready had OBE's for many years & have been involved with metaphsical concepts for years now.I,ve really only just begun but I,m at uni  studying science & have plenty of years up my sleeve,so we'll see what the future holds.

Atlas the day you have OBE's you are going to have an avalanche of memories that will creep back to remind you of where you've been.You say you have been trying that long Atlas? I,m curious & want to help,do you have a journal? I gather you have SOME OBE books,Bruces & Monroes? have you tried any hemi-sync stuff? or sound & light machines?If you are this determined Atlas,you will get there I feel.

Good journeys all

Mobius

 
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Frank
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« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2002, 06:39:50 »


History is replete with examples of where Physical science got it wrong.

I started out in the electronics field. When I was learning we had what was called "conventional current flow" and "true current flow".

We were told that the early scientists originally worked out that current flowed from positive to negative. You had a positive charge that dissipated into a the negative. I suppose they thought of it in much the same way as a full bucket of water would dissipate when poured onto a patch of earth. So they developed all these formulas, and so forth, that "proved" their findings.

However, years later, some bright spark started claiming they got it all wrong. Saying that current didn't flow from positive to negative at all. In fact, it was the other way around. There naturally followed a period of dismissal. However, one by one, scientists had to eventually accept they got it wrong and all the formulas were rewritten.

It's the same way I feel today when talking about "thought" being a primary energy. Of course, I'm not the only one. But we are a very tiny minority. All that scientists are beginning to discover is there are finer and finer states of matter; and that the Atom is not the be-all and end-all they once thought it was.

Now, I don't need a 10 billion dollar research facility to find this out, because I can project within these finer states and discover them for free. Just as we have the Physical world composed of Atoms, we have the realms made of a much finer matter than Atoms we call the Astral. As I say, scientists are only now beginning to discover the existence of these finer particles of matter.

Understand that the Astral is not some separate place that you travel too. The Astral realms are composed of progressively finer and finer states of matter that are interwoven within what we call Physical matter that is composed of Atoms.

It makes sense that, as scientists develop the technology to magnify atoms more reliably, and to an ever greater extent, they will start to begin to reach the stage where their instruments will have the capacity to detect the finer Astral matter that is interwoven within the Atoms themselves.  

They are surprised at the way this finer state of matter seems to react to their thoughts. Well, of course it will. Because such is the nature of Astral matter. On the Astral, with a little practice, you can actually manifest any object at will. Thus create a form of that object (or creature) from Astral matter merely by thinking about it in a particular way.

Yours,
Frank












 
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michael
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« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2002, 14:59:06 »

those of us who have been out of the physical body know for certain that we exist as beings which can consciously function outwith the physical frame....but we have to be scrupulously honest and state that we cannot doit at will..in the real time zone...there are billions of folks in this world who might just appreciate having scientific proof that we are "spiritual" beings and can reject the materialistic paradigm....thats as good a reason as any for those of us who OBE to prove it...and the experiment is easy enough to set up..Ive tried it for two years in the past and failed...but Im not going to do the "susan blackmore" thing and reject it cause it cant be proved right now..she for example has a sense of "releif" that the materilaitic paradigm is correct..ie its all the physical brains doing and is basically a very "real" hallucination..she is definitly wrong in this but she is not wrong in claiming the burden of proof is on us who say we have experienced OBE's to prove it or at least be prepared to attempt to prove it..the objections to doing this or at least be prepared to do this are increasingly hollow sounding and dreserve to be treated with "philosophical contempt"..in my view..
michaela

 
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