University of Manchester OBE survey

[Adrian]

Hello everyone,

Jacques Vabre has already posted about this matter and I thank him for that.

Here is the link again:

http://www.freeresponse.org/muobe2005/index.aspx

I have been communicating with the researchers who are organising this survey to convey my concerns regarding the objectivity of the survey and the final results and their interpretations. Scientists historically approach all of these "paranormal phenomena" from the point of view of disproving anything that does not conform with their own narrow scientific perspective of the physical Universe.

I am satisfied that their intentions are open-minded from what they haev said, but I will be keeping in touch with them to be sure of this.

The questions might not seem all that relevant or objective at times, but if we disregard these initiatives the researchers are always going to reach their own conclusions, which very often will be the wrong ones. Once the results of this research is known we can pursue them on their conclusions.

Thank you very much.

Best regards,

Adrian.

[Telos]

This survery is very problematic. And very unethical in my opinion.

To me it seems their intentions are to find connections between OBE's and both physical and mental illness (but mostly mental illness).

The reason why I say this is unethical (or just very sloppy) is this: They do not make the distinction between OBE and waking experiences during the questionnaire. The first question asks you if you've ever had an OBE and then it goes into sensations of the body. For instance, have you ever felt that your arm just disappeared? Why, yes, I have quite often... while falling asleep. Or the other more mental questions, like, do you ever see the world through a fog? Well of course I do, while I'm sleeping! The way they phrase the questions do not distinguish your healthy and natural experiences from symptoms of muscular distrophy or schizophrenia.

I've undergone a number of mental examinations and the questions asked were so obviously parts of a categorical listing of common illnesses, I wanted to place bets on what questions were going to be asked next. By the time I got to Questionnaire #9, when it says,

Below are a number of experiences sometimes reported by people...

I noticed that they neglected to add "during therapy." I know because many of these questions were asked to me directly while I was going through therapy. Particularly, psychologists interpreted my fascination and subsequent troubles with lucid dreaming and astral projection as unhealthy indulgence in fantasy.

But to the dreamer they're not fantasy... are they? Again, this questionnaire is unethical because it skirts this contested issue, so what you may recognize as a natural consequence of lucid dreaming, they see as unnatural signs of illness. This questionnaire is probing for such signs and not caring about the time of day they come to you.

All of the questions about being satisfied with one's body and moral fiber is a dead giveaway that their screening for anxiety disorder, other social disorders, and, oh yeah, body fixation disorder (I don't know how anyone can miss that one).

I started writing what each questionnaire probed by the time I got that far.

Questionnaire #9 is testing you for schizophrenia.

Questionnaire #10 is testing you for synaesthesia and psychotic features.

... Hmm, oh wait, that session timed out while I was writing this post, so I was never able to finish the whole thing. Alas, I don't have a complete listing for how fouled up this research project is.


The only thing you do in participating in this survey is tell them that you are or not mentally and physically ill.

That may sound "open" to some people, Adrian, but not me, especially when they don't tell you that you are being screened on symptoms of mental illness. I just thought I'd let others know, just in case they didn't want to waste their time.

[Beth]

Telos,

I agree!

I too thought that Questionaire #1 was not thorough at all in light of what OBE experiences are really like; even the first question implies that everytime you project that you 'see your body' or 'you don't'.  I also have no idea how many times I have projected over the years! and it wanted a specific number! (I stuck in 25 as an arbitrary number so I could move on...)

I didn't even go past Questionaire #2...here you have very queer questions that are very tricky...for example:

"I really should stop telling so many lies"

If you answer 'completely false' then you are basically saying that 'you should NOT STOP telling so many lies'.  

If you answer 'completely true' then you are saying that you SHOULD STOP 'telling so many lies'.  

Either way you are 'proving yourself to be a liar'.  

Too bizarre...I figured it was probably a 'trick' test to admit that you are a 'liar' and ergo, if you say you have had an OBE then it follows that you are lying...

Like I said, I didn't even get past this #2 section, so I guess we will never know whether I am psychotic or not!!!  

...so much for 'scientific research'.... ...and moreover, shame on them!!!...they are the ones that should 'stop telling so many lies'.....

Peace,
Beth  




p.s. I wonder if 'a driving need for emotional stimulation' would be the conclusion  if this question was asked:  I have a propensity to use 'emoticons' while posting in forums'.  

                                 

[James S]

...so I guess we will never know whether I am psychotic or not!!!  

Never you worry yourself about that one Beth. We already know the answer.



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[Beth]

Takes one to know one my friend!!!

[Adrian]

Hello Telos,

Here is what the lead researcher said to me when I first communicated with him about the survey and put forward my concerns:

I understand totally where you are coming from. In the past a lot of work has hinted at OBEs being the result of visual hallucinations, or worse
still, pathological states. I don't think this has been very helpful. None of our research has shown these theories to come close to explaining what
OBErs describe during their experiences.

Our research starts by taking the reported experience of the person as real. What we are interested in are the daily bodily experiences of people who do and don't have OBEs and how they may differ. I can assure you that, from the start of the study, we have employed an open minded and honest approach to this subject area, and we shall continue to do so throughout the analysis and writing up phases.

However, my main concern is that if only those people that are in these categories respond to the survey, keeping in mind that it has been published in a major national newspaper, and the "researchers" conclude and publish that these experiences are psychological, i.e. they have reach entirely erroneous and very damaging conclusions based on a lack of balanced input.

If we answer the questions at least we have contributed our perspective rather than just sitting back and watching yet another group of "researchers" dismiss OBE as a scientifically explainable phenomena and publishing their "findings" in the national media which would be very damaging to the truth. This is why I have taken the time to open communication with these people so I can keep track on what they are doing.

If we disagree with the questions we should write to them and tell them so and why. Again, to ignore these things will give them a free hand to draw whatever conclusions they want to. The fact is, this survey exists, it is not going to go away, and therefore we have to add our input and influence it in anyway way we can while communicating with the researchers.

We all know that Astral projection, OBE, Lucid Dreaming etc. is very real, and we have to do whatever we can to convince the world this is true, and we will not achieve that by sitting back and doing nothing.

In conclusion; if we just ignore these researchers and let them do their own thing, we only have ourselves to blame if they draw damaging and/or erroneous and/or inaccurate conclusions. We might not approve of the format of the survey, and I don't myself, but we have to add our weight to it nevertheless if the truth is to ultimately prevail.

Best regards,

Adrian.

[patapouf]

I wonder what they want to prove with that.

Title: ''Body percpetions'' of people who do or do not have OBEs.

What is the study about?

The aim of this study is to explore patterns of body experience by people who have and have not had an out-of-body experience. (...)

So this means that they already accept the fact that OBEs are real? or they want to associate the possibility that it is related to some kind of some characteristics of the brain which may be the result of what is causing these so-called OBEs? It is clear that the psychological academic discipline did not accept the fact that OBEs are genuine so it is probably some kind of correlation study they are making here to find out what ''kind'' of person might have the (what they will say) ''so-called OBEs''. And like Telos and Beth said, it is not surprising that they will try to make some correlation with mental illnesses.... But it may bring interesting results if they are open-minded like they say, we won't be surprised if the conclusions are like the other ones we saw before of course (ex: OBEs are only related with certain characteristic of the brain, etc.)  but we have nothing to loose on this....

"I really should stop telling so many lies"

Why are they asking that!


Anyway, I hope they will show their results at least....

Take care,

[Telos]

Beth, I hadn't noticed that about the lying question! I, too, thought it was weird, but you're right. It is curious... couldn't a researcher reasonably assume that the rest of the questionnaires were filled with lies, depending on that answer? Negating the information's usefulness?

Adrian, thank you for relaying that correspondence! I was already considering writing to them, but particularly to this so-called psychological testing ethics board. Your post caused me to rethink that and now I will most certainly write them both.

What we are interested in are the daily bodily experiences of people who do and don't have OBEs and how they may differ.

Then they need to make that "daily" distinction clear, by forming the questions in a way that explicitly communicates that they want information about the body's experience during the daytime and, furthermore, not during OBE practice.

This will be the main point of my letters as well as the obvious (to me) questions concerning symptoms of illness.

[Telos]

Major Tom, let me say I think you've completely missed the point.

You seem to think that exposing the weaknesses of an idea is a bad thing. This is, however, what scientists do everyday. And they make a living on having as few weaknesses in their ideas as possible. They're constantly making sure things stand up to rigor.

It's unfortunate that you seem to think the content of my concerns are disrespectful. I hope that you did not mean to suggest that the mere act of writing them would be disrespectful, for that would be ludicrous.

It makes it less than surprising me that so few mainstream scientists want nothing to do with people on boards like these.

MajorTom, you're very close to hurting me on this one, because I've been more ardent than anyone on bridging the chasm between science and OBE's. My motivations here are nothing other than that. If you, as a moderator, think I am actually doing the opposite of that, then I should leave. So, will you please clarify for me what is disrespectful?

In either case, these tests are standardized tests that have been tested for validity and reliability in numerous other studies. You can't go changing around the content of an item.

And most other studies in psychology are about mental illness.

Look up 'psychometric theory' if interested in the topic.

Major Tom, you probably wouldn't have said this if you had seen my other posts concerning the modern methods of psyhology. I'll assume you haven't and thus, assume you weren't trying to insult me.

[Adrian]

Hello everyone,

I believe there are valid points from everyone here.

We must keep in mind however that we are looking at this from our point of view and the researchers from theirs. Therefore with regards to the format of the tests, what seems bizarre to us might well be perfectly standardised to them. I suspect that many of those questions are generic to all sorts of research.

Clearly they have their own angle that is not entirely in line with our position.

The important thing however, as I said before, to completely disregard this survey is to say that we do not really mind what conclusions they arrive at and publish, even if they are damaging to the truth. We have to do whatever we can whenever we have the opportunity to strengthen the truth about what we know to be reality. We can always rebut the conclusions later.

Best regards,

Adrian.

[Telos]

I just found this article today, from NewScientist. Although not specifically about this survey, it seems appropriately coincidental.

Posted in the News and Media section:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20453

[Adrian]

Hello Telos,

I just found this article today, from NewScientist. Although not specifically about this survey, it seems appropriately coincidental.

Posted in the News and Media section:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20453

Thank you for that link.

I think we must accept the fact that traditional science has a very, very long way to go before they accept true reality. This is due to the fact that it challenges everything they have ever believed in, been taught and focussed their research upon. In other words they are in denial.

However, as I said before, we must work within their system when the opportunity arises so we can say we made a difference and so we can justifiably have input into any conclusions they come up with. If we do not fo this we cannot complain if we do not agree with the conclusions.

You can be sure that I will follow this through, especially as where this is taking place is not very far from where I am.

Best regards,

Adrian.

[nine29]

As the Crystal clear dark winter night opens the sky
Random thoughts stirring around start to fry
Like a thin slab of bacon they sizzle about
It is amazing how the mind can wander so far out
While I lay back on the hood of my car
Gazing up among all those clusters of stars
Searching for answers through out a star maze
I find myself drifting in some kind of daze
As I marvel at feeling this connection of intent
That screens these atoms of all-content
That in between what we think as empty
Places of vast space are a mass of plenty   
Within this realm of thought ideals unfold out
Hidden inside behind the conscious reality of doubt
Represses most the study to science trifle
By looking out instead of in is reason for stifle
...........my........

[patapouf]

I have searched on the university website to find out if they have posted the research (they usually do so)  and what they want to do basically since they do not really clarify for what purpose this study is being done when you take this survey... Every study have an hypothesis behind it and the one they have will not surprise you of course....  

But this person running the research should come discuss on such boards and  
he will probably realize that more ''questions'' needs to be answered....

Take a look at it:

The title of the article is: 'Out-of-body' experiences may come from within (23 August, 2005)

Take care,