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Author Topic: What's wrong with Psychic Self Defense?  (Read 35699 times)
Dark Knight
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« Reply #125 on: February 07, 2004, 10:38:56 »

quote:
yes that does happen, sadly, where a person is told that perhaps the affliction isn't happening. but sometimes the question about whether the person is sure it's a metaphysical ailment needs to be asked because it is good for a potential helper to know whether an ailment is physical or metaphysical in nature. that simple differentiation can mean vastly different types of help for the person afflicted. and sadly, it is possible for a person to misdiagnos a physical affliction as a metaphysical one and get the wrong treatment just as there are many cases out there where people believe they are being physically afflicted by something when in reality it is metaphysical.


It's a little more than that, Kakkarot, but thank you for at least listening.

Kakkarot, this is more than not believing in what a person is going through...kakkarot, people under attack have been given advice and if it didn't work in their case, they were blamed for it not working. I recommend blessed ritual salt bathes, but even I don't have the ego to believe if it doesn't work in a particular person's case it's because they're negative or not trying. People under attack that I have been speaking to privately have been doing things that do not work or help their situations just to be "accepted by the group." Just so they don't feel alone...but in actuality it's the worst kind of loneliness there is...being surrounded by people and utterly alone.  Others were too weak to pretend, they had already compromised too much, so they left, and they really needed help and support...God only knows what happened to them. If a person dies and no one hears the scream did he/she really die? You guys only heard me screaming so you thought I was only talking about myself (it's just past tense rhetoric, I am fine now, really, I'll just keep saying it)?!

Kakkarot, you get the things you have in life because of compromise. You may not feel the effects of the compromise because you live in a "world" where there is cooperation, respect, and compromise between people to lessen the load. The compromise made to get what you want isn't painful or is neglibly so. When a person gets no cooperation or respect, the only person they have to compromise with is themselves (self). You literally have to compromise whole parts of yourself to get what you need to survive. Do you understand what that means? It means you're in a situation where you can't walk away from anything because you have to do everything yourself. That kind of compromise is extremely painful, destructive of self, and frightening...and then they're being attacked on top of it. You don't get better slowly over time because what you're doing is essentially cannabalising yourself.

I didn't start getting seriously better until I got that help, cooperation, and compromise because I didn't have to compromise all of myself anymore to get what I needed. I could use that freer portion for other things, like enjoying life, enjoying people, seeing more of the positive.

Kakkarot, people forced in a position to compromise their self to survive (not even live, survive) can't see the positive because there is nothing positive about being forced to live that way. You walk around making affirmations and see that everything else around you has value except you,...so you continue to say the mantras all the fluffy bunny people want you say, all the while dying slowly and painfully inside...and there is total awareness every waking second of everything inside you which dies...you have to look at to compromise it. Everything a neg wants in a subject they get when people in pain are treated this way.

One year ago this month I was in the middle of the download. On Feb 13, 2003 I was fired from my job because the channeling was so severe I was muttering to myself, would stare out into space for long hours, and could not function or interact with others at all. I was taken into protective custody with my parents and watched as they and the family dog were channeled. I'd hear in my head, "We'll make sure they send you to the hospital, [Dark Knight], we'll make sure you never get out." I had no idea what the hell was happening to me. At one point I walked out to the nearby lake and looked at all the icebergs and thought I could walk out there and end it (and ending meant no life beyond the body or being ripped to shreads by whatever was one my case, anything to end it). I could've walked out there and no one would have found my body till the spring. I would've been ruled a suicide and no one would have known what had actually happened to me.

How many people has this happened to, and how many people really needing help came to this site on their last legs only to be driven away? This argument is petty but the suffering are not. This has to stop.

And hell, if not even Robert Bruce's account is believed, what hope do people under attack have? Sceptics won't believe until it is their skin. We can't cannabalise ourselves like this.


Kakkarot, read ALL of this, please![Cool]









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Akensai
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« Reply #126 on: February 07, 2004, 11:14:12 »

That was a beautiful post Dark Knight, perfectly clear, thank you!
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« Reply #126 on: February 07, 2004, 11:14:12 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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Nay
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« Reply #127 on: February 07, 2004, 16:49:06 »

I stopped responding several posts ago, but of course I now need to say more.

Many people have read this thread and I think, come away with differences of opinions.  Is that so bad?  I myself have that voice that tells me...uh, something just isn't right.  I believe in negs even though it may seem that I don't, but to what extent do I allow myself to believe their strength and limits.

 
quote:
One year ago this month I was in the middle of the download. On Feb 13, 2003 I was fired from my job because the channeling was so severe I was muttering to myself, would stare out into space for long hours, and could not function or interact with others at all. I was taken into protective custody with my parents and watched as they and the family dog were channeled. I'd hear in my head, "We'll make sure they send you to the hospital, [Dark Knight], we'll make sure you never get out." I had no idea what the hell was happening to me. At one point I walked out to the nearby lake and looked at all the icebergs and thought I could walk out there and end it (and ending meant no life beyond the body or being ripped to shreads by whatever was one my case, anything to end it). I could've walked out there and no one would have found my body till the spring. I would've been ruled a suicide and no one would have known what had actually happened to me.
To try and explain what I mean, I must use DK as a example...tis not flaming and if it seems to be, then I am sure I will get a PM from Kakkarot [Wink] yet I have no problem what so ever you calling me what you think I am, right here..in the open.

Before you, Dk even posted this, I had questioned myself how you could hold down a job and thought you couldn't.  I wonder had I voiced my opinion before you stated it as a fact, would I have been critized for being uncaring and attacking you?  Or would you have accepted my statement with open arms and said. "Nay, you are so right, I couldn't hold down a job"..  To be honest, in my opinion I think you would have went off on me.  And that is where opinions come in.

I believe you think you are being attacked by some evil force.  But the statement I quoted you saying..just doesn't sound like a neg to me.  For you to understand what I am trying to say, I guess I need to tell you what I think negs are capable of and where they are capable of doing it.

I think negs reside in the astral and yes they can drain you and make you feel tired while in the physical. (a after affect if you will)  But I don't think they are near strong enough to reach us while we are in the physical, standing next to a lake or at work, whispering things in our head.  That to me is a whole new subject.  Of course this is just my opinion and not trying to make you believe.  I was trying to explain this a long time ago, when you, DK..just kept saying I was flapping my lips.  I was trying to help you see in a different view, that you are the one giving (the voice) power....I was hoping it would help.  Help give you the power over it, but you were not going to have any of that.  

I have never found it easy to express what my thoughts are...and I tend to do it with humor.  I am willing to say, I got frustrated..VERY.  Because I truly was trying to help and you pretty much said I was unworthy and a dumb***.

Hehehehe..now I have no idea why I even started writing this post..[Tongue]  I guess everyone does want to be heard and understood.  I had the feeling that when some people were saying flaming was going on, I was the one they were referring to. (guilty conscious perhaps?)  I just can't figure out why everyone is so cryptic in saying so.  As long as you don't call me names, I am very cool with opinions and will try and see it in a different light, but I don't have to agree with it.[Wink]

I am glad DK, that you are no longer experiencing these things.  Perhaps now, we can go on with life and speak of nicer things?  

The gifts I wish to give you
are my deepest love,
the safety of truth,
the wisdom of the universe
and the reality of God.

With these four things, nothing will deter you.
You will follow your hearts
swiftly to your destination,
which is Home.

I know there is confusion and doubt
and what appears to be chaos.
Can you see
that beneath these surface shadows
there is eternal Light?

This earth plane
is neither the beginning nor the end
of your existence.
It is simply a step, a schoolroom.

My friends, let me impress upon you
how solidly
you are planted in eternity,
how brilliantly
you can shine in your own physical world,
how possible
it all is,
how beautifully
the Plan is designed.

In God's Plan no soul is alone.
No soul is ever lost.

Emmanuel....


Nay.
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shedt
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« Reply #128 on: February 07, 2004, 22:42:20 »

yes, if someone tells you they do not agree with you then you should not attack them. that is what i see here. i can understand if someone is hurt and looking for help, but if i don't agree too what the problem is, the person having the problem should not attack me for it. that is what i percieve here. though i may be wrong, and i am sorry if i am. but please, do not attack me here for having a different point of view
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Mick
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« Reply #129 on: February 08, 2004, 14:03:03 »

quote:
Originally posted by Nay

I myself have that voice that tells me...uh, something just isn't right.  I believe in negs even though it may seem that I don't, but to what extent do I allow myself to believe their strength and limits.

...

For you to understand what I am trying to say, I guess I need to tell you what I think negs are capable of and where they are capable of doing it.
I think negs reside in the astral and yes they can drain you and make you feel tired while in the physical. (a after affect if you will)  But I don't think they are near strong enough to reach us while we are in the physical, standing next to a lake or at work, whispering things in our head.  That to me is a whole new subject.  Of course this is just my opinion and not trying to make you believe.  


Is this not the problem that you are judging people by what you believe, if I read you correctly then if someone experiences something outside of your belief then due to your belief you tell them you tell them that it is likely self imposed!

I don't doubt and I have said here that problems can be self imposed, they can also result from medical conditions plus for many here that have more experience they are seen as part of the flora and fauna of our environment.

 
quote:

I was trying to explain this a long time ago, when you, DK..just kept saying I was flapping my lips.  I was trying to help you see in a different view, that you are the one giving (the voice) power....I was hoping it would help.  Help give you the power over it, but you were not going to have any of that.  


This is all well and good if this is the actual cause, but where someone has tried this route and found it wanting for whatever reason then other support is called for, this includes accepting that a person under some duress may not have the initial strengths to simply proclaim intent to fix a problem or indeed think coherently about implementing self based solutions. In my opinion there may be a need to give someone breathing space so that they can restore their strengths and resolution of mind in order to implement longer term personal solutions. I think that the recent postings by Kakkarot more than adequately outlines what I want to say so won't bore further.

The thread at http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10342 I think is giving a working example of where a person outlines a situation that fits the remit of the forum and many are coming in to question, analyse and give feedback. As yet no one had rolled out the fixed ideology answers so there is no bickering leaving space for further investigation and support.

I would also remind readers that Dark some time ago proposed that an alternate forum be established simply for the discussion of identifying types of so called attackers and methods for dealing with them for the purpose of better understanding and support, this generated some support at the time but no obvious reaction nor support from the moderators. Dark has also called for making some of the comments made here including some of those that advocate the self belief/discipline methods sticky but to date none have been made so. Lastly Dark is often the first to respond to new requests for help by providing mutual support and understanding plus links to what she beliefs are useful texts. I state this to balance a degree of negative commentary made against Dark recently some of which I can concur with as I have received some snipes from her but I found that by addressing and explaining my point of view and/or language used directly using email or PM fixed it.
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« Reply #129 on: February 08, 2004, 14:03:03 »



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Sam
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« Reply #130 on: February 08, 2004, 16:53:53 »

Standing outside moments ago, savouring a cancer inducing cigarette, I paced back and forth trying to disseminate the arguments which have appeared in this discussion in the week I've been out of town.  The idea that a thread could possibly go on for "too long" I find to be appaling.  Just when people are getting personal and actually working out their differences, people start backing out because for some reason they're unable to confront whatever changes they may need to make in their ideology to accept the other side's viewpoint, or worse still they let pride get in the way of acceptance.

I find it interesting and I wonder why people see that they are being attacked when someone openly and honestly states what they think.  I wish I could post quotes but a virus has screwed up my system and copy/paste doesn't work!  I'll have to invent a situation which is typical of the common statement/response mechanisms at work in this debate.

person 1 : I have an opinion and this is what it is...
person 2 : I disagree with your opinion because it is naive to believe (whatever)
person 1 : How dare you call my niave, I'm offended, you are just an insulting person
person 2 : I am not an insulting person, your attitude reflects your naivety
person 1 : see!  another example of your insulting attitude!  I refuse to discuss this issue with you!

The point I'm trying to make is this debate keeps on going off track with people criticising peoples means of getting their point across.  People need to mature beyond the point of taking offense at a person's attitude in a conversation.  If people endlessly criticise one another's attitudes the point gets lost in a mess of opinionated garbage that doesn't help anybody.  Now here I am sounding like a hippocrite because I am in effect giving a blanket statement that criticises many people's attitudes.  The effect I'm trying to achieve is that certain people stop trying to make people have the same "manners" so that some invisible line isn't crossed that leads to the sacred "manners" being breached causing someone to be offensive.  Someone sinking in quicksand screaming out for help might say "SOMEBODY PLEASE F***ING HELP ME FOR F***S SAKE!" and then the "good mannered" people would say "No, I refuse to drag such a foul mouthed reprobate from the clutches of certain death, however if you were to have better manners..."  "WELL F***YOU THEN!" "Well, I guess I just can't help you I'm afraid.  Tiddly-pop." "F***! (gurgle, swallow, suffocate, die)"

I have read this entire post, and one thing stands out like a sore thumb.  It is difficult to communicate effectively with some vocally well equipped and conversationally cunning people here (i.e. those who ignore the point of a persons post, picking on a small detail such as the manner in which the point was made, thus diverting the flow of conversation, thus avoiding the need to use logic to debate your own point of view lest your logic be proven inferior, hoping to use a personality flaw in your logical opponent to get public opinion weighed against them thus negating the need for rational argument because obviously their attitudes are so flawed they are unreasonable and need to be ostricised etc etc)

I'm refusing to take sides because this isn't my argument, but I would like to see the people on each side reach an agreement rather than say its just too hard lets agree to differ.  Only the problem if you agree to differ is that every time the subject in question crops up, the same arguments start being recycled like before.

Blah blah blah who cares its just another opinion.
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Sam
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« Reply #131 on: February 08, 2004, 17:01:13 »

Just a suggestion, maybe you guys should talk about which part of each others argument you actually agree with.  That would certainly go a long way towards clearing the air for some more reasonable discussion.
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Sam
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« Reply #132 on: February 08, 2004, 17:11:04 »

sorry I just re-re-read the last few posts, it seems things are heading in a positive way already.  My apologies if my criticisms missed the mark by a few posts.
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James S
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« Reply #133 on: February 08, 2004, 21:59:09 »

quote:
Originally posted by Mick
I would also remind readers that Dark some time ago proposed that an alternate forum be established simply for the discussion of identifying types of so called attackers and methods for dealing with them for the purpose of better understanding and support, this generated some support at the time but no obvious reaction nor support from the moderators. Dark has also called for making some of the comments made here including some of those that advocate the self belief/discipline methods sticky but to date none have been made so. Lastly Dark is often the first to respond to new requests for help by providing mutual support and understanding plus links to what she beliefs are useful texts. I state this to balance a degree of negative commentary made against Dark recently some of which I can concur with as I have received some snipes from her but I found that by addressing and explaining my point of view and/or language used directly using email or PM fixed it.


Hi Mick,

The reason DK's suggestion got no reaction from the moderators or admin is because what she wanted already exists. Adrian and Robert started the PSD forum for the purpose of discussing the various aspects and mechanics of neg attacks and methods of treatment.

If you look back through the history of this forum you will see that many have gained much benefit and knowledge from it's existance. This forum is made no less valid because of people who remain sceptical and wish to suggest more "scientific" approaches. Robert Bruce himself mentioned in one post early on in the piece that when dealing with these kinds of issues, all possibilities must be taken into account.

To all,

It must be said that peoples adherence to extreme views in either direction tend to cause more harm than they do good. Moderators have already come down hard on people in the past who have criticised other members by telling them they're crazy and really need to see a psychiatrist.

Personal attacks will not be tolerated from anyone, no matter what their situation or opinion. This is no less true for this forum than it is for any other.

With that in mind let us please try to continue with thoughts to productive discussions. Lets face it, Nobody here is really close to knowing all there is to know about negs, psychic attacks or mental afflictions. We all have room to learn. If we start banding together rather than polarising into factions, this will be achieved much more easily.

Kind regards,
James.
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Edi
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« Reply #134 on: February 09, 2004, 01:06:52 »

Hey,

I won't have access to the internet next week so before I leave I'd like to put forth a further channeling by my guide Perena:



"There have been posts where it was referred to that nobody should be blamed for whatever attacks he is enduring. Everyone will agree upon this; there is no point in blaming and it does no good. The question is not whether a person has caused their situation by intentionally or unintentionally doing something 'wrong'. The question is how to get out of it efficiently and with a lasting effect, which means that they won't slip into it again easily. Many solutions and cures that seem to bring temporary relief of attacks do not adress the core of the problem.

Labelling such things "personal shortcomings" is not justified. As it has been mentioned, there are always situations where you have to draw back and retract in order to cope. You cannot always do much about those circumstances, and nobody is expected to be perfect in dealing with them. But what is essential in healing such issues AND curing the psychic 'attacks' that are anchored on them (yes, they always need a 'weak point') is to recognize what happened and how it influences your (re-)actions now. This is intelligible when there have been major problems in a person's life, during childhood etc., and those things can be worked through with your own effort, and if that's not feasible then with help from others, including professionals.

Now there doesn't always have to be a deep psychological wound which leaves you vulnerable to a psychic 'attack'. The other case would be where a new influence comes into your life (e.g. beginning to meditate, or a spirit suddenly seeking to influence you) and at some point you notice that something is just not right and things begin to get odd. In this case too, it's not expected that you know everything in advance and are able to avoid and balance every possible 'problem' that could come up. That's the way it is in life, you experience lots of new things and normally you're able to deal with that - that's common sense along with natural mechanisms that inform you if something is going wrong, and what to do about it.

When things go wrong though and you suddenly see yourself faced with something you can only call a 'psychic attack' - what to do about it? Approaches like rituals, shielding, prayers and all those things often seem to work. But what remains is the point that the underlying cause was not addressed at all that way. The argument of 'temporary relief in order to get room for breathing' is not perfectly valid, because you then often block and shut away those very things that should be addressed! By this you eventually can build up some sort of artificial defense, painfully and with much effort, but those very things you fear and push away then are exactly what should be examined.

The guides can intervene and take care of a psychic 'attack' problem, but such things can only be arranged if at the same time the person has the will to embrace and to understand things, namely such issues as: conditioning imposed by the social milieu, strong parental influence or domination, religious conditioning, insecurities in getting on with people - whatever is relevant to that person, whatever strong blocks or fears there are. They can be subtle or not, but how the problem manifests points to what it is.

What I want to point out here, also as a ground for new discussion:

1) You can have control over what happens to you - it can be as easy as talking to 'negs', and eiter trying to help and understand, or to clearly refuse permission to interact with you.
2) The guides can help to dissolve a psychic 'attack' situation, but it depends upon the will of the person.
3) Psychic 'attacks' have to focus and attach on 'weak points' - this means it is in your power to get out of a situation, not by 'attacking' but by evolving.

It would be good to examine cases where people have been cured from psychic 'attacks', and what exactly the cure turned out to be. There needs to come a general understanding of how those things work, a general 'common sense' about it."




That's it; we haven't been covering all possible interpretations of what's said here and it's not possible to address more than a part of the whole picture in one post, but it looks like this thread has evolved to the point where things can be discussed... there's nothing to add to what James said, but I just quote him again:

quote:
[...] let us please try to continue with thoughts to productive discussions. Lets face it, Nobody here is really close to knowing all there is to know about negs, psychic attacks or mental afflictions. We all have room to learn. If we start banding together rather than polarising into factions, this will be achieved much more easily.


cya,
  Edi
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Dark Knight
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« Reply #135 on: February 09, 2004, 08:57:45 »

Nay,

My attackers are people (human and ET...I consider ET non-terrestrial people). I've had things inserted inside me resmebling the gollum creature from Lord of the Rings only black and slimey doing everything to me from sucking away my energy to sucking on my vagina, try putting up with that while you're at work. Nay, God defines you, you don't define God.

Tayesin, Spectral Dragon, Enderwiggin, and one more person on this forum (in this thread) have had encounters and similar experiences with my perp unless you're about to tell us we're all suffering from the same thing.

quote:
Many people have read this thread and I think, come away with differences of opinions. Is that so bad?

You can have freedom of opinion but responsibility goes along with it. You are not free from responsiblity if what you are doing causes some of the things I have described above,...which I have now repeated several times. And quite frankly, people under attack and people like me are not conspiracy theories. What we go through every day is not a theory or an opinion. What we have to sacrifice to stay alive is neither theory nor opinion. It's like asking someone who has a tumor do you mind if we theorize about it being cancer or not, but doing little else. The tumor starts to spread, and the theorizing continues...well yes, I'd say some harm is being done here.

You gotta learn how to listen to people. Several times throughout this thread, people (and myself) have explained the consequences in several different ways, explained how your actions are potentially hurting people under attack, and we're still contradicted and asked, "Why is it so bad." Because you have to respect people's needs, and when you don't respect people who are hanging by a life and death thread after you're repeatedly told to stop, you shouldn't be surprised to be on the receiving end of retaliation...the consequences a person under attack receives because of you actions are immediate, now, and powerful. It's either retaliate or let go of the thread and most people do not want to let go.

You can't change a situation because you don't like the consequences
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kiauma
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« Reply #136 on: February 09, 2004, 09:29:53 »

I have read of your experiences with interest DK.  They sound disturbingly like schizophrenic experiences.  You may want to investigate that.

We've seen many viewpoints, ranging from the 'It is your responsibility to see things my way' to 'We MUST all come to a consensus' to 'We must simply accept everyone's view' to all shades in between.

What is the truth?   How can we all be so passionate for our own viewpoint - whether that viewpoint is exclusive or one of acceptance?

Dictionary.com defines universe as:  All matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole.

Uni as a prefix means 'single', and verse as a root word means 'composition'.  And so we think the universe is - a single experience which we all share and for which it must be the same for everyone.  But is it?

Everything I've seen in this thread and many things I have seen in my life and many things I have experienced in AP tell me this is really an amalgamous composition as much as a single composition.

Personally, I've suspected for a long time that the universe may actually be bigger than I am.   The multiplicity of views tells me this.  The multiplicity of religions tells me this.

It seems there are as many ideas about the reality of the universe as there are people.  As such, might each view then be more definitevely called a monoverse - the single view of reality within a reality?

Being as psychic experience is so personal, wouldn't this go a long way in explaining WHY even people of vast psychic and AP experience can differ so profoundly in their explanation of it?

I mean come on, we all want to say that we know 'reality' - but this thread is a great example of just how hollow that claim can be.   And when our claim to ultimate reality is threatened... hooo-boy!   That is when you start seeing, 'My monoverse is bigger than your monoverse, and it's gonna whip your butt!'  LOL

I am the universe, and I am insignificant.  I am my reality, and it is just my reality in multiple realities.   Anyone who claims more or less is (by this explanation) just as right.  [Wink]
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Dark Knight
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« Reply #137 on: February 09, 2004, 09:43:49 »

Shall I repeat for those who do not know how to read:

 
quote:
Tayesin, Spectral Dragon, Enderwiggin, and one more person on this forum (in this thread) have had encounters and similar experiences with my perp unless you're about to tell us we're all suffering from the same thing.


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« Reply #138 on: February 09, 2004, 09:48:53 »

READ my posts DK.  I am not doubting you are having this experience.

The root issue of this thread is why you are experiencing this, though I agree with Edi that it is counter productive to make a case on that from one person's experience.
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« Reply #139 on: February 09, 2004, 10:30:45 »

quote:
I have read of your experiences with interest DK. They sound disturbingly like schizophrenic experiences. You may want to investigate that.


I'm sure she already has.  Hey, most people think astral projection and conversations with spirits are schizophrenic experiences.  Who's to say DK isn't already on the ball as far as that sort of thing is concerned.  Sure, we all need a certain degree of evidence before we start believing something for ourselves but many people have been conditioned to pass any sort of "conspiracy" off as a skizophrenic problem that needs urgent attention.  Theres plenty of movies, jokes and references to conspiracy theories that desensitise the general population to the notion that the big people could possibly play mind games with the little people.  Couple that with the popular belief that you are the orchestrator of your own life and bam, you've closed your mind to a new possibility.

I think
 
quote:
I mean come on, we all want to say that we know 'reality' - but this thread is a great example of just how hollow that claim can be. And when our claim to ultimate reality is threatened... hooo-boy! That is when you start seeing, 'My monoverse is bigger than your monoverse, and it's gonna whip your butt!' LOL

made perfect sense.  Nobody can claim to know everything that was, is and will be, but you are naive in thinking that everyones view is just as right.  It may feel right to the person experiencing their subjective reality, and they may argue that their view is right until they're blue in the face.  But then they act shocked and surprised when something from the objective reality, that is the "real" world/universe/whatever doesn't seem to correlate with their subjective view.  They may respond to the new situation by trying to twist their view to include the new phenomena, or they may have to disintegrate a few of their values and build a new system from the ground up, or they may just go insane and think they've become skizophrenic.  

Try to diagramatically visualise the universe as a circle, with the inside of the circle labled as "Reality" and the outside of the circle being "Delusion".  Everyone's perception is also a circle which overlaps to a varying degree both reality and delusion.  Some people are more deluded than others, some people are more aware than others.  Its a falsehood to claim that everyone's view is as correct as everyone elses, but that doesn't mean I'm saying its not correct for everyone to have their own view, no matter how deluded.  If that is what you meant by your last comment then I apologise for misunderstanding your meaning.
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« Reply #140 on: February 09, 2004, 10:41:30 »

DK, I would advise against going too graphic here, after all you don't know what youngster may be viewing this thread[:O]

Kiauma I know your concerns that this might not be what it seems to be, but I have a few years with helping people out. I have dealt with my own thought forms before, I have helped people with thier own, I have helped people with neg problems, and I have helped a very few people who's abilities were going out of control. What this attacker is doing is using DK's inner demons to get inside her head. I have spotted people who were living out their fantasies, I have also spotted people who were faking these experiences just for thier own personal amusement or because they wanted attention.

DK does not show signs of being sick in the head, though like everyone else she has her own personal (and she will be one to admit this herself. You can verify this if you want DK.) Demons to deal with. Such Inner conflict is used by negs and people to get inside the victims head and cause harm and fear (which some negs feed on)This is what Myself, Ender, Tay, and a few other people have noticed. None of us are inexperienced in these matters, and all of us have dealt with these things in one form or another.

Each of us, in our own rightfull mind, has tested one another for skill, clarity of vision, and just plain out to make sure we are not fakes. I can assure you that Ender and Tay are not fakers living out a fantasy, as we take our work very seriously despite our sometimes light mood(Which we do to relieve pressure)

quote:

Originaly posted by Edi
What I want to point out here, also as a ground for new discussion:

1) You can have control over what happens to you - it can be as easy as talking to 'negs', and eiter trying to help and understand, or to clearly refuse permission to interact with you.
2) The guides can help to dissolve a psychic 'attack' situation, but it depends upon the will of the person.
3) Psychic 'attacks' have to focus and attach on 'weak points' - this means it is in your power to get out of a situation, not by 'attacking' but by evolving.



These are very valid points that I agree need to be looked upon. It is possible to control a situation involving a psychic attack, especially if dealing with an attack involving something in your own body. You should be master of yourself, so anything getting inside should have a solution. This is sometimes a hard idea to grasp and not always the easiest to exploit.

Another way to put #3 That a good friend of mine showed me is that an attacker must have a "door" to go through in order to attack, unless dealing with something more powerfull than yourself which in all probability isn't going to happen, to stop an attack you need to take control of the "door" so you need to shove the attacker out of yourself and close the door, and pehaps use the advantage to find more doors that the attacker can find for you for you to close. In this way you can balance yourself and thus "evolve."
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« Reply #141 on: February 09, 2004, 11:35:14 »

"Such Inner conflict is used by negs and people to get inside the victims head and cause harm and fear"

Which is part of what I have been saying all along.

And thank you for your view too, Sam.

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« Reply #142 on: February 09, 2004, 12:38:34 »

quote:
Originally posted by James S

Hi Mick,

The reason DK's suggestion got no reaction from the moderators or admin is because what she wanted already exists. Adrian and Robert started the PSD forum for the purpose of discussing the various aspects and mechanics of neg attacks and methods of treatment.


That is fair enough, but of course this thinking could have been stated at the time when some thought that there was a need for a forum where a more investigative approach could be pursued.
But as I said I mentioned those points with the intention to balance out the possible negativity of some comments being made.

 
quote:

If you look back through the history of this forum you will see that many have gained much benefit and knowledge from it's existance. This forum is made no less valid because of people who remain sceptical and wish to suggest more "scientific" approaches. Robert Bruce himself mentioned in one post early on in the piece that when dealing with these kinds of issues, all possibilities must be taken into account.


Agreed, it is the narrow band thinking of some ideologies that I also have a problem with rather than open discussion. I have worked with Robert in the past and we encountered a mixed bag requiring that all options be considered.
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« Reply #143 on: February 09, 2004, 14:23:27 »

Dk,
I do want to ask, do you experience your things while in the astral?
If that is the case you seem to be very proficient in AP'ing.  I have been meditating for 15+yrs, and having OOBE's for almost as long, even though I had no idea what they were back then.  They weren't conscious but they certaintly were real non the less.  Now I can consciously AP and I have had a few phasings, but still working on making that one conscious.[Wink] Wanted to give a bit of background on me, so you wouldn't think I was just talking out the side of my neck.

I can't believe I had forgotten about a experience that happened to me, until I read Edi's new post. (goes to show ya how much it stayed with me [Tongue])

I projected into a house, that had those windows that cover the whole wall.  Very beautiful place, with the ocean beyond the windows.  I was standing there and saw a man on the other side of the window.  I felt a bit apprehensive but nothing I was going to dwell on.  Then next thing I know, he is in the room standing infront of me.  He pushed me down on a ottoman and was on top of me,holding my arms down above my head.  I struggled but couldn't get him off, he then brought his face down to mine, and I thought he was going to try and kiss me, but instead he started to let his spit drool into my mouth.  Yeah, that was really gross, would have much preferred the kiss. [^]  Well, I was getting worried and frankly grossed out and just said out loud. "God will help me"  and poof, he melted away.

Strange that I haven't thought about that in months.  Maybe that is the key, stop giving it life with the power of your thoughts.  I also had something sucking on my shoulder once in the Astral, and there was a mark on my arm while in the Astral, but once I came back to my physical, there wasn't anything.  Once again, I haven't thought about these experiences for months.  I always just went on with my hum-drum life.
Now onto commenting on your last post.


quote:
Nay,

My attackers are people (human and ET...I consider ET non-terrestrial people). I've had things inserted inside me resmebling the gollum creature from Lord of the Rings only black and slimey doing everything to me from sucking away my energy to sucking on my vagina, try putting up with that while you're at work. Nay, God defines you, you don't define God.

Tayesin, Spectral Dragon, Enderwiggin, and one more person on this forum (in this thread) have had encounters and similar experiences with my perp unless you're about to tell us we're all suffering from the same thing.
I have no idea what ya'll are experiencing,and at this point does it really matter?  Nothing I say will be right..[Sad!] you keep throwing up those names like some kind of sword.  Why hasn't Tayesin jumped on the band wagon, why isn't he here defending you, as SD and Enderwiggin are?

 
quote:
You can have freedom of opinion but responsibility goes along with it. You are not free from responsiblity if what you are doing causes some of the things I have described above,...which I have now repeated several times. And quite frankly, people under attack and people like me are not conspiracy theories. What we go through every day is not a theory or an opinion. What we have to sacrifice to stay alive is neither theory nor opinion. It's like asking someone who has a tumor do you mind if we theorize about it being cancer or not, but doing little else. The tumor starts to spread, and the theorizing continues...well yes, I'd say some harm is being done here.

Ok, let me get this straight...You are saying I am causing these things to happen to you, just because I do not take everything you say to be the gospel truth?  And if this is the case, then I am about to get pretty ticked, because you have no right, to push some guilt trip on me.  Maybe I shouldn't say gospel truth..that is a bit harsh.  It just I have had lots of projections with only a few negative outcomes and as you read, I put those out of my mind almost the same moment they happened.  Maybe the negs just know that I will not play their games, and stopped trying to make me play.  

 
quote:
You gotta learn how to listen to people. Several times throughout this thread, people (and myself) have explained the consequences in several different ways, explained how your actions are potentially hurting people under attack, and we're still contradicted and asked, "Why is it so bad." Because you have to respect people's needs, and when you don't respect people who are hanging by a life and death thread after you're repeatedly told to stop, you shouldn't be surprised to be on the receiving end of retaliation...the consequences a person under attack receives because of you actions are immediate, now, and powerful. It's either retaliate or let go of the thread and most people do not want to let go.

You can't change a situation because you don't like the consequences
I do listen to people, thanks.  If you mean I don't respect people, because I have a difference of opinion well...that is your opinion.  I can handle retaliation, and have been through out this thread.  I agree it seems we can't let this thread go..wow..we just agreed on something!  Break out the Champange!

It's strange that mention of negs really didn't start up until Robert wrote his Psychic Defense.  Now it seems to be in full swing.  I do have a problem with that, because it scares the new people that come here in hopes of learning how to Astral Project. No way to tell how many people have come to the forums and read about all these evil things and now will never know that the astral can be a very beautiful experience.  

Nay
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Nagual
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« Reply #144 on: February 09, 2004, 15:30:50 »

quote:
... You assume because other people being attacked didn't open their mouths, you didn't do anything wrong, didn't hurt them...Didn't matter...oh the sound of invisible people. No, don't worry, your "help" had a blanket effect on a lot of people being attacked, it shut them up and drove them off. They couldn't cope with being attacked by negs and being attacked by their "help."

Hum... which help am I supposed to have done...?  Please, tell me because I can't remember helping anyone about psychic attacks...  For one reason, I have no idea how I could help since I know almost nothing about attacks mechanisms.  I never helped you.  I read your posts, asked a few questions, saw your aggressive attitude and decided to just let others take care of you.
quote:
Here let me help, since you so obviously need a map to connect the dots...I don't want the spotlight on me. I want the spotlight on you and how your actions affect others. And you, a whole lot of you have been asking for it for a while.  Now I wonder how much of this you actually read?

How ironic!  Very good advice...  that you should follow too!  [|)]
Go read again my posts.  If you find one where I tried to help you about your attacks, I will publicly apologize.

Going back to the "your help sucks, get lost" attitude...  If you don't like some of the help you receive; why not just ignore it?  Why not pretend you tried it and it help and just forget about it?  Take what works and drop what does not work.  No big deal.  Why do you have to yell and insult people like that?  I agree that people should be more or less careful (depending on the gravity) about trying to help people...  But at worse, you should expain to them why blablabla, or ignore them; not attack them verbaly.

Next time you ask for help, mention that anyone whose help will end up not working should be prepared to be crucified for even trying to help.

Again, I never said you're lying or faking or doing it wrong or whatever...  The only thing I say is that, from all the posts I read, you are unecessarily rude/agressive.

And I am also happy that your problems are over so now we can just forget all this mess and go back to "friendly mode"!
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« Reply #145 on: February 09, 2004, 15:31:09 »

Ok maybe we need to order a pizza, sit around on some beanbags and chill out for a bit.

Nay, you seem like a loving and caring person, and nobody is questioning your best intentions.  However if you hurt somebody directly or indirectly, wouldn't you like to change whatever it is thats causing you to hurt that somebody?  Even if it means looking at yourself, spotting a problem and fixing it?

Nobody's perfect, but we can improve ourselves.

 
quote:
I have no idea what ya'll are experiencing,and at this point does it really matter? Nothing I say will be right..


Why do you think it doesn't really matter what others are experiencing?  I think it matters because it helps you to understand where a person is coming from.  If you don't care about what others are experiencing how can you hope to understand their perspective and why they think yours is flawed?  I'm sure you've had plenty of experience over the past 15 or so years that confirms your own view of things, but that doesn't prove that you are right.  It does however make it harder for you to accept others views.  Still, guess theres nothing wrong with waiting until you see the evidence before you change your views, its just going to be a bit sad if the evidence involves yours, or someone elses pain (whether or not it was intentional).

As for thinking nothing that you say will be right, don't give up.  I'm sure if DK had your attitude she would feel the same way right about now.  Its not about being right or wrong its about listening and trying to understand what the other person is saying, which means asking pertinent questions.  Answers are easy to give, it is the questions which need the most thought because until you ask the right question, you aren't going to get a helpful answer.

 
quote:
You are saying I am causing these things to happen to you, just because I do not take everything you say to be the gospel truth?


Anyone with a good grasp of logic can see that you are overreacting.  YOU are not causing the attacks, but when someone comes and asks for help apparently (I say apparently because I don't know you well enough) you and others push them away, so indirectly that person experiences suffering as a result of the best intentioned ignorance.  If you don't accept DK's testimony as being truth maybe you need to.  Because those names she's weilded around "like a sword" are actually references to people who have or are currently experiencing or witnessing others experiencing the SAME THING as she is, which should be reasonably taken as proof enough to a rational mind that DK is speaking truth when she talks about her experiences.  She isn't making it up.  Also, she isn't trying to force a guilt trip on you, and you should stop being so oversensitive to criticisms of your self.  When someone comes to you for help, tells you about their situation, do you up and say "I don't believe you because its nothing like I've ever experienced.  In my experience it should work like this this and this"?  That kind of response leads to an argument over the validity of the persons experience, causing the person to question their own validity and leading to arguments about the cause rather than speculation as to a cure.

 
quote:
Maybe the negs just know that I will not play their games, and stopped trying to make me play.


Negs can be persistent lil buggers.  Some of them just won't go away, especially if they got their hooks in years before you became aware of anything spiritual.  Personally I've had a host of negs feeding off me for at least ten years, but I've only been spiritually aware for the last two or three, and for one of those years I was under almost complete control so I had no say in what my body was doing.  Wishing them away doesn't work.  Praying to god doesn't work (when they can silence your "voice").  Energy work doesn't work.  Attacking them doesn't work.  Ignoring them just gives them free reign to keep on feeding.  If a shark was chewing off your leg do you think ignoring it would make it dissapear?  Does praying to god make it go "poof"?  The same answer to those two questions applies to the stronger astral enemies one might find around the place.  Just because you've never seen them doesn't mean they don't exist.  Its like saying "I don't believe a shark bit off your leg because I've never seen one".  Imagine the look of surprise on your face when you finally meet one?

And respect...  Don't get me started on respect.  Damn, you got me started.  Why is it that people need to "Earn" respect?  Who amongst us has the right to judge one person more deserving than another?  Nobody.  Why?  Because as soon as you think you have the power to give or take respect from someone else, you immediately automatically think you (or your opinions) have the potential to be better than someone else.  Get rid of the ego trip.
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« Reply #146 on: February 09, 2004, 15:55:49 »

on a slightly different note, could somebody please direct me to instances where DK has attacked people verbally when they've tried to help her.  I'd like to see it for myself but I've looked around a bit and can't find any examples.
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Nay
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« Reply #147 on: February 09, 2004, 18:01:30 »

Hahahahahaha. Wow..that is calling the kettle black!

You spend all that effort on a post and did exactly what you are accusing me of..[Tongue]

 
quote:
Why do you think it doesn't really matter what others are experiencing? I think it matters because it helps you to understand where a person is coming from. If you don't care about what others are experiencing how can you hope to understand their perspective and why they think yours is flawed? I'm sure you've had plenty of experience over the past 15 or so years that confirms your own view of things, but that doesn't prove that you are right. It does however make it harder for you to accept others views. Still, guess theres nothing wrong with waiting until you see the evidence before you change your views, its just going to be a bit sad if the evidence involves yours, or someone elses pain (whether or not it was intentional).
I didn't say it didn't matter to me, but it seems everytime I give MY OPINION, it is wrong.  So why bother?  and why is that so hard for ya'll to get?  In one sentence I am bad for having my opinion and not hearing yours, in the next sentence you say I should understand why they feel my opinion is flawed..do you not see you are doing the exact thing I am being critiqued for?  I never said I knew everything to be facts either...I am the first to admit that!  Ask anyone who really knows me, I am always trying to learn more and not ashamed of it.

You forgot to add when you quoted me.. I said "maybe the gospel truth is a bit harsh"

 
quote:
Anyone with a good grasp of logic can see that you are overreacting. YOU are not causing the attacks, but when someone comes and asks for help apparently (I say apparently because I don't know you well enough) you and others push them away, so indirectly that person experiences suffering as a result of the best intentioned ignorance.
Now I take this statement..as I don't have a grasp of logic, correct me if I am wrong but that is exactly what it sounds like.  I am not overreacting, I am stating the truth..[Smiley]  And for someone whom says they don't know me well, you sure seem to act as if you know me, hence you having no problem in telling me of my faults.

 
quote:
Because those names she's weilded around "like a sword" are actually references to people who have or are currently experiencing or witnessing others experiencing the SAME THING as she is, which should be reasonably taken as proof enough to a rational mind that DK is speaking truth when she talks about her experiences. She isn't making it up. Also, she isn't trying to force a guilt trip on you, and you should stop being so oversensitive to criticisms of your self. When someone comes to you for help, tells you about their situation, do you up and say "I don't believe you because its nothing like I've ever experienced. In my experience it should work like this this and this"? That kind of response leads to an argument over the validity of the persons experience, causing the person to question their own validity and leading to arguments about the cause rather than speculation as to a cure.
Well, you see things one way, I see them another.  Doesn't make either of us right..  Like I said..I tried to help, and got shot down for it..I quoted her responses to me.  I felt pretty silly afterwards, I'll tell you that.  She made me feel as if I could be of no help, and my ideas on how to perhaps alleviate some of her problems was down right stupid.

 
quote:
Praying to god doesn't work (when they can silence your "voice"). Energy work doesn't work. Attacking them doesn't work. Ignoring them just gives them free reign to keep on feeding.
It worked for me, but it is obvious from this thread that I have different beliefs on how things can be handled.

 
quote:
If a shark was chewing off your leg do you think ignoring it would make it dissapear? Does praying to god make it go "poof"?
Uh, I am sorry but that is just plain silly, bad analogy for what this whole topic is about.

 
quote:
And respect... Don't get me started on respect. Damn, you got me started. Why is it that people need to "Earn" respect? Who amongst us has the right to judge one person more deserving than another? Nobody. Why? Because as soon as you think you have the power to give or take respect from someone else, you immediately automatically think you (or your opinions) have the potential to be better than someone else. Get rid of the ego trip.
I am trying to remember when I said that you must bow down to me and respect me...  
If you mean I don't respect people, because I have a difference of opinion well...that is your opinion I believe this is what I said, and it doesn't say anything about me demanding your respect..

*sigh* I have repeated myself in as many different ways that I can, I grow tired and weary of this.  I have to say I have learned something today.... That there are negs out there and walking around in human form, and now I give you my back.  

Nay
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« Reply #148 on: February 09, 2004, 21:12:14 »

quote:
Hum... which help am I supposed to have done...?

You thought all that was directed at you Nagual? No, sorry you're not the center of my universe and I don't feel like repeating myself, go play someplace.

quote:
have no idea what ya'll are experiencing,and at this point does it really matter? Nothing I say will be right..  you keep throwing up those names like some kind of sword. Why hasn't Tayesin jumped on the band wagon, why isn't he here defending you, as SD and Enderwiggin are?

Tayesin left the AstralPulse in protest over Mayatnik (see communications forum) and he is currently helping a friend with another forum. I invited him to post at the begining of this thread and he did, I am not calling him back a second time to defend me. He has his own life and helped me when he could, and is still patient with my questions.

quote:
You are saying I am causing these things to happen to you, just because I do not take everything you say to be the gospel truth? And if this is the case, then I am about to get pretty ticked, because you have no right, to push some guilt trip on me.

I do not Astral Project, I have been ripped out of my body from time to time by the greys and other not so nice people/entities, something Spectral Dragon can vouch for because he had to retrieve me at on point after I was yanked out on one occasion. I never got the chance to develop my abilities, damn, I had no interest in developing my abilities, I was studying for and became a chemist for Christ sake. I had no interest in the supernatural. The greys started coming in 1993 I started experiencing real time sight and mind splits, I had no terminology for it at the time. The attacks started in 1998, after which I started experiencing telepathy, telempathy, and other forms of ESP, usually initiated by another entity/person (by showing up and me seeing them, and yes, I am in my body when it happens)...I didn't and still have no desire to develop or use any of it.

You don't cause attacks, and you don't help them either. All things have value, but valuable things come into conflict, in which case we have to arrange things in some order of priority according to our needs. People under attack arrange the priorities to get them through the problems and everyday life while dealing with the attacks. Your actions push for a re-arrangement of those priorities which have caused many people to expend energy they don't have, just to fit in or convince you that they are "doing everything you think they should do" to look responsible in your eyes. They don't have to defend their needs to you and they don't have prove they have those needs....you have to respect it. You are an adult not a child being abused, and what your mother did to you, you can do to others. I'll repeat it again here:
 
quote:
Kakkarot, this is more than not believing in what a person is going through...kakkarot, people under attack have been given advice and if it didn't work in their case, they were blamed for it not working. I recommend blessed ritual salt bathes, but even I don't have the ego to believe if it doesn't work in a particular person's case it's because they're negative or not trying. People under attack that I have been speaking to privately have been doing things that do not work or help their situations just to be "accepted by the group." Just so they don't feel alone...but in actuality it's the worst kind of loneliness there is...being surrounded by people and utterly alone. Others were too weak to pretend, they had already compromised too much, so they left, and they really needed help and support...God only knows what happened to them. If a person dies and no one hears the scream did he/she really die? You guys only heard me screaming so you thought I was only talking about myself (it's just past tense rhetoric, I am fine now, really, I'll just keep saying it)?!

Kakkarot, you get the things you have in life because of compromise. You may not feel the effects of the compromise because you live in a "world" where there is cooperation, respect, and compromise between people to lessen the load. The compromise made to get what you want isn't painful or is neglibly so. When a person gets no cooperation or respect, the only person they have to compromise with is themselves (self). You literally have to compromise whole parts of yourself to get what you need to survive. Do you understand what that means? It means you're in a situation where you can't walk away from anything because you have to do everything yourself. That kind of compromise is extremely painful, destructive of self, and frightening...and then they're being attacked on top of it. You don't get better slowly over time because what you're doing is essentially cannabalising yourself.

I didn't start getting seriously better until I got that help, cooperation, and compromise because I didn't have to compromise all of myself anymore to get what I needed. I could use that freer portion for other things, like enjoying life, enjoying people, seeing more of the positive.

Kakkarot, people forced in a position to compromise their self to survive (not even live, survive) can't see the positive because there is nothing positive about being forced to live that way. You walk around making affirmations and see that everything else around you has value except you,...so you continue to say the mantras all the fluffy bunny people want you say, all the while dying slowly and painfully inside...and there is total awareness every waking second of everything inside you which dies...you have to look at to compromise it. Everything a neg wants in a subject they get when people in pain are treated this way.

quote:
Uh, I am sorry but that is just plain silly, bad analogy for what this whole topic is about.

No it's not silly, that is exactly what you are asking people to do, whether you intend it or not. Hearing people is not the same as listening.
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« Reply #149 on: February 09, 2004, 21:16:51 »

I would like to make it clear that I am neither defending nor attacking anyone, I am just saying what I feel. I just want to avoid confusion. This is an extremely complex issue and will take a lot of brain power, time, and reasoning to solve. Perhaps what I say happens to support this or that person, but it is only my thoughts. Have you read my latest post? What are your thoughts?
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