JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY REVEALED AS MYTH

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Principle

It's not relative when certain so-called truths are debunked.

It's wrong to be close minded and unwilling to accept anything different,
Unfortunetly, this is the case with many individuals who are Religious.

Now the following is going to be a controversal statement,
However it is my personal opinion / belief.

'Religious Literature is not the Word of God, but the Word of Man.'

mon9999

religions were created to control the mass.. be good like sheepherds or else you will burn in hell!!
we don't need a God because we are God. we are what he is!! we create our own reality! we are the creator! know thyself not jesus, etc. etc. its all about remembering who we are and why we are here!!
to realize that we are a spirit having a physical experience not physical beings trying to have a spiritual experience.. its all about self-realization

CFTraveler

Quotewe don't need a God because we are God. we are what he is!! we create our own reality!
I agree that we are God, and therefore cocreators- the problem is we forget and start to unconsciously create and that's why the world is not as joyful as we could make it.  So we need to be reminded of this, hence comes organized spirituality.  Soon enough, it becomes religion, and
Quotereligions were created to control the mass.. be good like sheepherds or else you will burn in hell!!
.
It's self defeating.  We create religion to remember, start to use it for power (which indicates that we didn't remember) and then suppress the knowledge.
So it's my opinion that the problem doesn't lie with religion per se, it lies with the way we use it.  And no, I don't have a solution.  If I did, I probably would be some sort of avatar.
ps.
Quoteknow thyself not jesus, etc. etc.
Jesus is the one who said 'know thyself'.  He also said "The kingdom (counsel) of God is inside and outside of you."  So don't blame Jesus, blame the lack of understanding from those who sought to control what people understood- and could create.

Mustardseed



Well Jeehad we are still at it. Ha funny how you say to yourself I will just have to let it go and then you just take a peek see a new posting and say "ok then I will just add this one little thing". Let me first of all repeat to you that I am not supporting the American war. I am also very much against Western Imperialism and the Jewish occupation and re- settlement of the Palestinians. All these points are unjust and it is understandable that you "feel for your brethren" as you put it.

However reality is such. It is a fact that the world is not without abuse, nation war against nation and individual against individual. Who is to blame in every conflict is often quite obscured so we all have to make the effort to figure it out and then try to right the wrong. I totally understand you on this point, and share your sentiments. At the time of Muhammad this was also the reality of the day. I actually believe that in that day and age and with the options open to him, when he first tried to change his reality by preaching to the ungodly, he was doing a good thing, and it may have been inspired by God. His contemporaries were a very brutal and savage bunch of people, and he was right to try to stand up for truth. Even as he moved he was for the most part engaged in what I would term an understandable level of violence. I am not talking here about acceptable but understandable, at least I can see why he did what he did.

It is quite another story how he started behaving after he became a force to be reckoned with. Marrying a 6 year old, and most definitely spreading Islam by the sword. You said that the Koran does not tell you to "just kill people" sorry about that, my wrong, it tells you to try to make them embrace Islam first, and then if they don't want to do that, then you should kill them.

As far as the errors in Christianity, I am fully aware of these errors and a few more that you missed, but you see this is the very point I was trying to make. Most Christians in the world, the overwhelming majority either accepts the Bible as being a book that has to be interpreted, but believe in the message, or they see it purely as a fiction. They still call themselves Christians. This is because they have as a body become educated. In the past this was not so, but education/science has shown them that there are certain scriptures that cannot be meant to be taken literally if science is to be used in measuring its validity. Others still chose to believe it in spite of these, figuring that its basic message is what is important, and that the lack of scientific reality is not really that important. The Fundamentalists that actually believe in every word being true are very few in number and still.........they do not turn terrorists BECAUSE there are no scriptures in the New Testament that justify killing, for any reason, on the contrary. 

This is why there are no Christian suicide bombings. On a personal lever our leaders cannot nor do they even try to convince us to use such means. Our book does not state that there will be virgins waiting if we blow ourselves up and kill a bunch of innocent people. With the Koran this is not so. As you so very well know Koranic verses are inscribed on clothes of suicide bombers, and they are elevated almost to saint hood and celebrated. The people, who kill innocent bystanders in these events, are following Koranic dogma. Do you dispute this?

I watched your clip you watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlhNAEClzZw

I noticed that you very quickly left off the issue of the uneducated Muslim masses, as well as the "overwhelming number of Muslims" in the west. By now you have resorted to stating and repeating the unfair treatment of your people and justifying Terrorism. A political argument !! Do tell, are you still convinced the masses of Muslims are very well educated. And that, there are such overwhelming number of Muslims living in the west?

And do answer my question. If the Koran is wrong on one statement.....is that enough for you.?

Regards Mustardseed

PS Goober yea so I did not know you lived in a Ghetto, so what. Touching story though. You are still in the safe and protected west, and not subject to Sharia law, that was my point.
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Doringo

QuoteOur book does not state that there will be virgins waiting if we blow ourselves up and kill a bunch of innocent people. With the Koran this is not so
QuoteAs you so very well know Koranic verses are inscribed on clothes of suicide bombers,
Quotethey are elevated almost to saint hood and celebrated.
Quoteare following Koranic dogma
Any citations other than Fox news? :roll:
All men are equal in death.

James S

What religion you follow tends to be determined by what country you are born in.
But what you choose to believe should only be determined by you, not what someone tells you, and certainly not what some book that says it's the only truth tells you.

We all have our "God Selves". The soul or spirit within us is Divine. We don't need to look outside of ourselves for the answers, or for salvation. It's all within us.

The biggest problem that has come from these books telling us they are the only truth, and the organisations that enforce that, is they tell us not to look within ourselves.
They tell us that we are "less than". They tell us we are worthless on our own, that we need some deitiy outside of us to make us right. They also tell us that they alone can show us the only path to their God, and that all other paths are false. They tell us we are separate from their God and we are separate from each other.

These books tell us to be kind and loving to each other yet they are also filled with stories of "righteous" killings and brutal wars against those that have not followed their God.

They are not books of love and salvation, they are books of fear and hate.

Mustardseed

Quote from: James S on February 22, 2007, 18:39:19
What religion you follow tends to be determined by what country you are born in.
But what you choose to believe should only be determined by you, not what someone tells you, and certainly not what some book that says it's the only truth tells you.

We all have our "God Selves". The soul or spirit within us is Divine. We don't need to look outside of ourselves for the answers, or for salvation. It's all within us.

The biggest problem that has come from these books telling us they are the only truth, and the organisations that enforce that, is they tell us not to look within ourselves.
They tell us that we are "less than". They tell us we are worthless on our own, that we need some deitiy outside of us to make us right. They also tell us that they alone can show us the only path to their God, and that all other paths are false. They tell us we are separate from their God and we are separate from each other.

These books tell us to be kind and loving to each other yet they are also filled with stories of "righteous" killings and brutal wars against those that have not followed their God.

They are not books of love and salvation, they are books of fear and hate.


not all books teach the same James, you know that very well
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Jeehad

Quote from: Mustardseed on February 22, 2007, 12:25:49

Well Jeehad we are still at it. Ha funny how you say to yourself I will just have to let it go and then you just take a peek see a new posting and say "ok then I will just add this one little thing". Let me first of all repeat to you that I am not supporting the American war. I am also very much against Western Imperialism and the Jewish occupation and re- settlement of the Palestinians. All these points are unjust and it is understandable that you "feel for your brethren" as you put it.

However reality is such. It is a fact that the world is not without abuse, nation war against nation and individual against individual. Who is to blame in every conflict is often quite obscured so we all have to make the effort to figure it out and then try to right the wrong. I totally understand you on this point, and share your sentiments. At the time of Muhammad this was also the reality of the day. I actually believe that in that day and age and with the options open to him, when he first tried to change his reality by preaching to the ungodly, he was doing a good thing, and it may have been inspired by God. His contemporaries were a very brutal and savage bunch of people, and he was right to try to stand up for truth. Even as he moved he was for the most part engaged in what I would term an understandable level of violence. I am not talking here about acceptable but understandable, at least I can see why he did what he did.

It is quite another story how he started behaving after he became a force to be reckoned with. Marrying a 6 year old, and most definitely spreading Islam by the sword. You said that the Koran does not tell you to "just kill people" sorry about that, my wrong, it tells you to try to make them embrace Islam first, and then if they don't want to do that, then you should kill them.

As far as the errors in Christianity, I am fully aware of these errors and a few more that you missed, but you see this is the very point I was trying to make. Most Christians in the world, the overwhelming majority either accepts the Bible as being a book that has to be interpreted, but believe in the message, or they see it purely as a fiction. They still call themselves Christians. This is because they have as a body become educated. In the past this was not so, but education/science has shown them that there are certain scriptures that cannot be meant to be taken literally if science is to be used in measuring its validity. Others still chose to believe it in spite of these, figuring that its basic message is what is important, and that the lack of scientific reality is not really that important. The Fundamentalists that actually believe in every word being true are very few in number and still.........they do not turn terrorists BECAUSE there are no scriptures in the New Testament that justify killing, for any reason, on the contrary. 

This is why there are no Christian suicide bombings. On a personal lever our leaders cannot nor do they even try to convince us to use such means. Our book does not state that there will be virgins waiting if we blow ourselves up and kill a bunch of innocent people. With the Koran this is not so. As you so very well know Koranic verses are inscribed on clothes of suicide bombers, and they are elevated almost to saint hood and celebrated. The people, who kill innocent bystanders in these events, are following Koranic dogma. Do you dispute this?

I watched your clip you watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlhNAEClzZw

I noticed that you very quickly left off the issue of the uneducated Muslim masses, as well as the "overwhelming number of Muslims" in the west. By now you have resorted to stating and repeating the unfair treatment of your people and justifying Terrorism. A political argument !! Do tell, are you still convinced the masses of Muslims are very well educated. And that, there are such overwhelming number of Muslims living in the west?

And do answer my question. If the Koran is wrong on one statement.....is that enough for you.?

Regards Mustardseed

PS Goober yea so I did not know you lived in a Ghetto, so what. Touching story though. You are still in the safe and protected west, and not subject to Sharia law, that was my point.




Clearly you have not read about the life of Muhammed pbuh. He is described by many historians as one of the most influential and greatest figures in history. In a book entitled "1The 100 greatest men" Muhammed was topped as number One. Again I sincerely advise you to learn about the teachings of Muhammad pbuh for you will notice a sudden change. Unlike the founders of many religious, the final prophet of Islam is a real documented and historical figure. He lived in the full light of history, and the most minute details of his life are known. Not only do Muslims have the complete text of God's words that were revealed to Muhammad, but they have also preserved his saying and teachings in what is called "hadith" literature. This having been said, it should be understood that Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad was only a man chosen by God, and that he is not divine in any way. In order to avoid the misguided wish to deify him, the Prophet Muhammad taught Muslims to refer to him as "God's Messenger and His Slave". The mission of the last and final prophet of God was to simply teach that "there is nothing divine or worthy of being worshipped except for Almighty God", as well as being a living example of God's revelation. In simple terms, God sent the revelation to Muhammad, who in turn taught it , preached it, lived it and put it into practice. In this way, Muhammad was more that just a "prophet" in the sense of many of the Biblical prophets, since he was also a statesman and ruler. He was a man who lived a humble life in the service of God, and established an all-encompassing religion and way of life by showing what it means to be an ideal friend, husband, teacher, ruler, warrior and judge. For this reason, Muslims follow him not for his own sake, but in obedience to God, because Muhammad not only showed us how to deal with our fellow human beings, but more importantly, he showed us how to relate to and worship God, worship Him in the only way pleasing to Him. Like other prophets, Muhammad faced a great deal of opposition and persecution during his mission. However, he was always patient and just, and he treated his enemies well. The results of his mission were very successful, and even though his mission started in one of the most backward and remotes places on earth, within a hundred years of the death of Muhammad, Islam had spread from Spain to China. The Prophet Muhammad was the greatest of all of God's prophets, not because he had new doctrines or greater miracles, but because the results of his mission have broght more human beings into the pure and proper belief in the One True God than any other prophet. The hadiths in which saying Muhammed married a 6 year old were are very weak, in fact there are other Hadiths which state that he married someone who was 19 years of age. Such to that matter, Islam being spread by the sword is a hilarious statement. What do you call the good old crusaders??? Didn't they try puncturing the Islamic states in the name of Christianity?? Secondly, I advice you to learn in historical studies. Any historian is willing to tell you how Islam expanded. As you may have noticed the Christian romans persecuted the Muslims during the expansion of Islam. Arabian merchants spread this divine call to God and people took a  liking. A religion which supports freedom, liberty, teaches equality is absolutely thrilling to people. So people in christian nations converted, and guess what the leaders of that society did? The forced down there own religion on the people persecuted them fought them! Many of these people lived in large numbers and called for help! The Muslims fought back against these persecutors! this si essentially how Islam spread. See the nature of that era was hate what you do not know. Islam was knew and it was a target to MANY peoples eyes! We were attacked many times but through Gods grace and mercy the truthful won! I told you once and I will tell you again, the verses you stated were EXPLAINED BY ME! If you want to refute on such matters then pull the verses out and rebuttle my statements I made on each one. Will I change my thoughts if the Quran has an error? I won't because I know for a fact the Quran is purely a divine word of God, I KNOW FOR A FACT you cannot pull out any error! IF so then The error can be easily explained. This is a challenge from Allah almighty. Aboutt he "illitercy" Brother please I am bear witnessed to this falseful statement. Lets take things in my perspective, I am not illiterate and I am preaching out such verses! Tell me are Americans illiterate? Because they were blindly led to believe leis fed to them by the government? They were fooled to thinking that christianity is the root support of the Israeli regime on Palestineans? That there own tax dollars are going out evenly to there society??? Please, illiteracy is a stupid statement and excuse, why not use logic to rebuttle my statements instead of such instances.




















My brothers and sisters everywhere! With this essay, I am not singling out the adherents of Islam - to which I ascribe - but rather I am writing this essay to every man and woman throughout the whole world.
I ask Allah that He facilitates that this essay reaches every ear, falls under the sight of every eye, and is understood by every heart... Muhammad the son of `Abdullah is Allah's Prophet and the Final Messenger Sent by Allah to the Inhabitants of Earth. My brothers and sisters everywhere! You should know that the Messenger, Muhammad the son of`Abdullah (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) is Allah's Messenger in reality and truth. The evidences that show his veracity are abundant. None but an infidel, who out of arrogance alone, could deny these signs.

Among these proofs:


1. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) was raised illiterate, unable to read or write, and remained like that till his death. Among all his people, he was known as being truthful and trustworthy. Before receiving revelation, he had no prior knowledge of Religion or any previously sent Message. He remained like that for his first forty years. Revelation then came to Muhammad with theKoran that we now have between our hands. This Koran mentioned most of the accounts found in the previous scriptures, telling us about these events in the greatest detail as if he witnessed them. These accounts came precisely as they were found in the Torah sent down to Moses and in the Gospel sent down to Jesus. Neither the Jews or Christians were able to believe him regarding anything that he said.


2. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) also foretold of everything that wouldoccur to him and his community after him, pertaining to victory, the removal of the tyrannical kingdoms of Chosroes [the royal title for the Zoroastrian kings of Persia] and Caesar, and the establishment of the religion of Islam throughout the earth. These events occurred exactly as Muhammad foretold, as ifhe was reading the future from an open book.


3. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) also brought an Arabic Koran that isthe peak of eloquence and clarity. The Koran challenged those eloquent and fluent Arabs of his time, who initially belied him, to bring forth a single chapter like the Koran. The eloquent Arabs of his day were unable to contest this Koran.Indeed, till our day, none has ever dared to claim that he has been able to compose words that equal-or even approach-the order, grace, beauty, and splendor of this Glorious Koran.


4. The life history of this Noble Prophet was a perfect example of being upright, merciful,compassionate, truthful, brave, generous, distant from all evil character, and ascetic in all worldly matters, while striving solely for the reward of the Hereafter. Moreover, in all his actions and dealings, he was ever mindful and fearful of Allah.


5. Allah instilled great love for Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) in the hearts of all who believed in and met him. This love reached such a degree that any of his companions would willingly sacrifice his (or her) self, mother or father for him. Till today, those who believe in Muhammad honor and love him. Anyone of those who believe in him would ransom his own family and wealth to see him, even if but once.


6. All of history has not preserved the biography of any person in the manner it has preserved the life of Muhammad, who is the most influential human in history. Nor has the entire earth known of anyone whom every morning and evening, and many times thereafter throughout the day, is thought of by those who believe in him. Upon rememberingMuhammad, the believers in him will greet him and ask Allah to bless him. They do such with full hearts and true love for him.


7. Nor has there every been a man on earth whom is still followed in all his doings by those whobelieve in him. Those who believe in Muhammad, sleep in the manner he slept; purify themselves (through ablutionand ritual washing) in the manner he purified himself; and adhere to his practice in the way they eat, drink, and clothe themselves.

Indeed in all aspects of their lives, the believers in Muhammad adhere to the teachings he spread among them and the path that he traveled upon during his life.

During every generation, from his day till our time, the believers in this Noble prophet have fullyadhered to his teachings. With some, this has reached the degree that they desire to follow and adhere to the Prophet's way in his personal matters regarding which Allah has not sought of them to adhere to in worship. For example, some will only eat those specific foods or only wear those specific garmentsthat the Messenger liked.

Let alone all that, all those who believe in Muhammad repeat those praises of Allah, special prayers,and invocations that he would say during each of his actions during day and night, like: what he would say when he greeted people, upon entering and leaving the house, entering and leaving the mosque, entering and leaving the bathroom, going to sleep and awaking from sleep, observing the new crescent, observing the new fruit on trees, eating, drinking, dressing, riding, traveling and returning from travel, etc. Let alone all that, all those who believe in Muhammad fully perform-even to the minute detail-every act of worship-like prayer, fasting, charity, and pilgrimage-as this Noble Messenger (may Allah's blessingsand peace be upon him) taught and as he himself performed.All of this allows those who believe in him, to live their lives in all aspects with this Noble Messenger as their example, as if he was standing before them, for them to follow in all their doings.


8. There has never been nor will there ever be a man anywhere upon this earth who has received suchlove, respect, honor, and obedience in all matters-small and large alike-as has this Noble Prophet.


9. Since his day, in every region of the earth and during every period, this Noble Prophet has beenfollowed by individuals from all races, colors and peoples. Many of those who followed him were previously Christians, Jews, pagans, idolaters, or without any religion. Among those who chose to follow him, were those who were known for their sound judgment, wisdom, reflection, and foresight. They chose to follow this Noble Prophet after they witnessed the signs of his truthfulness and the evidences of his miracles. They did not choose to follow Muhammad out of compulsion or coercion orbecause they had adopted the ways of their fathers and mothers.Indeed many of the followers of this Prophet (may Allah's blessings peace be upon him), chose to follow him during the time when Islam was weak, when there were few Muslims, and when there was severe persecution of his followers on earth. Most people who have followed this Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) have done so not to acquire some material benefits. Indeed many of his followers have suffered the greatest forms of harm and persecution as a result of followingthis Prophet. Despite all this harm and persecution, this did not turn them back from his religion. My brethren! All of this clearly indicates to anyone possessing any sense, that this Prophet was truly and really Allah's messenger and that he was not just a man who claimed prophethood or spoke aboutAllah without knowledge.


10. With all this, Muhammad came with a great religion in its credal and legal make-up. Muhammad described Allah with qualities of complete perfection, and at the same time in a manner that is free of ascribing to Him any imperfection. Neither the philosophers or the wise could ever describe Allah like such. Indeed it is impossible to imagine that any human mind could conceive of an existing being that possesses such complete ability, knowledge, and greatness; Who has subdued thecreation; Who has encompassed everything in the universe, small or large; and Who possesses such perfect mercy.Nor is it in the ability of any human being to place a perfect law based upon justice, equality, mercy and objectivity for all human activity on earth like the laws that Muhammad brought for all spheres of human activity - like buying and selling, marriage and divorce, renting, testimony, custody, and all othercontracts that are necessary to uphold life and civilization on earth.


11. It is impossible that any person conceive wisdom, morals, good manners, nobleness of charactersas what this honorable Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) brought. In a full and complete manner, Muhammad spread a teaching regarding character and manners towardone' parents, relatives, fiends, family, humanity, animals, plants and inanimate objects. It is impossible for the human mind alone to grasp all of that teaching or come with a similar teaching. All of that unequivocally indicates that this Messenger did not bring an) of this religion from his own accord, but that it was rather a teaching and inspiration that he received from the One Who created the earth and the high heavens above and created this universe in its miraculous architecture andperfection.


12. The legal and credal make-up of the religion that the Messenger, Muhammad, (may Allah'sblessings and peace be upon him) brought resembles the engineering of the heavens and the earth. All of that indicates that He who created the heavens and the earth is the One Who sent down this great law and upright religion. The degree of inimitability of the Divine law that was sent down upon Muhammad is to the same degree of inimitability of the Divine creation of the heavens and earth. For just as humanity cannot create this universe, in the same manner humanity cannot bring forth a law like Allah's law that He sent down upon His servant and messenger Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him).

James S

Quote from: Mustardseed on February 22, 2007, 19:03:32
not all books teach the same James, you know that very well

I have yet to see a book that is the primary religious text for a major religion that does not contain quantities of "justified" killings of people who do not follow the ways of the God portrayed in that book.

The Bible's Old Testament is chock full of it!
The Irony of the Bible is it presents the teachings of Jesus who was essentially "anti-religion", yet a religion was built about this that demands that all of the bible, all of the murderous old testament and all of Paul's rules and regulations be adhered to, not just the loving humane bits.

If anyone doubts that all of the major religious texts contain a disturbing ammount of "justified" brutality and inhumanity, grab a copy of Neal Donald Walsch's New Revalations and look at all the examples throughout it.

When you cannot look at a religion without being caught up in the perspective of that religion, it becomes very hard to see its dark side.

Mustardseed

#84
QuoteWill I change my thoughts if the Quran has an error? I won't because I know for a fact the Quran is purely a divine word of God, I KNOW FOR A FACT you cannot pull out any error! IF so then The error can be easily explained. This is a challenge from Allah almighty. About the "illitercy" Brother please I am bear witnessed to this falseful statement. Lets take things in my perspective, I am not illiterate and I am preaching out such verses!

Dear Jeehad

Your quote above says it all. You are convinced and as a true fanatic you state that you will not change your mind if a proven error is to be found in the Koran because you "know for a fact that it can be easily explained " This only proves my fact you are doing this:

(Presuppositions and Epistemologies)
A man is convinced he is dead. His wife and kids are exasperated. They keep telling him he's not dead. But he continues to insist he's dead.
They try telling him, "Look, you're not dead; you're walking and talking and breathing; how can you be dead?" But he continues to insist he is dead.
The family finally takes him to a doctor. The doctor pulls out some medical books to demonstrate to the man that dead men do not bleed. After some time, the man admits that dead men do not bleed.
The doctor then takes the man's hand and a needle and pokes the end of his finger. The man starts bleeding. He looks at his finger and says, "What do you know? DEAD MEN DO BLEED!"

This is known as a Presupposition

The above story illustrates the strength presuppositions can have. If someone is already convinced of a particular position, presenting contrary evidence can often be futile. The person will often re-interpreted the evidence in light of the presupposition.


then you say that the masses of Muslims are not illiterate because "you are not". Your statements make no sense. I have shown you statistics clearly proving they are, yet you deny that because you are not. !!!! When you make statements like this you sure sound illiterate. 

As I said before you prove my point. Can you not see this?

Regards Mustardseed

To James : as you know the NT is a break with the OT where in the NT do you see "quantities of "justified" killings of people who do not follow the ways of the God portrayed in that book."


When will anyone spak up against this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh1UGAvsNs4

and this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTOEGOt1NHI&mode=related&search=

it goes on and on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nZOcqXQ0SM&mode=related&search=
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Nay

LOL!  I can't believe ya'll are still at it.   Be warned one and all.... this is what religion...any religion gets you. 

I wish both of you would shut your yaps now... seriously.  This has become so much about being right it isn't funny.  If either one of you were to die tomorrow, you would be so stuck in a religious belief system that no amount of being right would save you.  Are you both so insecure with your own beliefs that you really need to out talk, copy and paste each other to death?

Come on already... *shakes head*

James S

Mustardseed,
you are correct - the New Testament does not contain vast quantities of justified killings as the Old Testament does.
But that doesn't excuse the fact that Christians are told that ALL of the Bible is the Holy Word of God, and that ALL of the Bible must be treated as such.
The Quaran, the Bhagavad-Gita and the Torah are all the same - full of killings and other gross inhumanities by God and in God's name, and yet they must be adhered to by their respective followers.

Talanay is absolutely correct - it's all about who's right isn't it?

For millennia the world has been putting up with this utterly ridiculous crap.
Religions, each one of them hell bent on trying to convince people that they are right and every other religion is wrong.
Each one of them with their history written in the blood of innocent people!

Jeehad and Mustardseed,
both of you are arguing that your religion is right and the other is wrong. Yet which of these religions has the greater claim to being The Truth?
Honestly, you two might as well argue over whether yellow is a better or truer color than blue!

Lock Jesus and Muhammad in a room together for a few hours and they'd come out best of friends.
Lock one or two of each of their followers together in a room and there'd probably be bloodshed!

It's so utterly pointless because the more you two, and other religious followers like you argue over who's religions is right, the further away you are going from the real spiritual / humanitarian teaching of the Holy masters like Moses, Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha, etc.
Can't the two of you see that all of these masters were saying the same thing?

It is connection with God, with the Divine that allows us to see ourselves as all being one, with no-one being greater or lesser than another, no-one being more "right" than another.

It is connection with Ego that creates separation and the need to prove yourself right and prove someone else wrong.






Novice

QuoteLock Jesus and Muhammad in a room together for a few hours and they'd come out best of friends.
Lock one or two of each of their followers together in a room and there'd probably be bloodshed!

Excellent James!  Several times I've asked friends this same thing -- although I usually include Buddha and Krishna in that room as well -- and my conclusions equal yours.
Reality is what you perceive it to be.


Mustardseed

First of all Nay, this is all posted in the section of "world religions". This section was as you know made in order to keep those, who wanted to discuss such things separate from the other threads. Are you telling me that even here, this subject should not be discussed? YOU  moderators made these separations so let us be. We have followed the rules so let us do our thing, if you don't like the subject look the other way :-D, we do not force anyone to take part. The issue at hand obviously is interesting to us. We are both trying our best to be decent and polite, give and take a few outbursts here and there we keep the rules of the AP.

James for your information the NT is separate as pertains to ethics. As Christians we are not expected or even required to follow the 10 commandments. This is the much talked about "Good news", If you want me to explain this to you I will but I expect that you are aware of this but are so hip on stopping this "madness" that you would rather throw every religion into the same pot, and get your own "beliefsystem" across. Yes, My friend are also stuck in a beliefsystem, I realize you probably feel quite convinced that you are above such matters, but it is my opinion that everyone is in some sort of beliefsystem, even the most "enlightened", and who are you James to tell me that you know better.

While I am a Christian, my point here is not to elevate my own beliefs as "right", but to mirror Jeehad. It is my opinion that his religion is destructive and that violence is not the answer to the worlds problems. I do very strongly believe that Islam is a destructive religion, and that the anger and resentment, the masses of Muslims feel toward the west is justified using the Koran and the Hadith. Religious leaders in the mideast and other places are with the Koran in hand whipping Muslims into a frenzy, aiming at destroying the west. I know very well that US aggression and centuries of abuse is by western powers is partly to blame for the social misery and extreme poverty in these countries, but do not see in the NT that the solution is to kill the Muslims. The war is not Christians against Muslims as per se, as western powers are not engaging in war to make Muslims change their faith. They are simply preying on the weak for political and financial reasons.

Take a look at the youtube clips encouraging children to become suicide bombers. !!!!

Besides this my religion may be peacefull and nonviolent, but there is nothing in the book that tells me I should not SPEAK up against evil, and killing is evil. I do not consider Jeehad my enemy at all, but I am engaged in this debate to try to understand why he believes in a book that not only preaches intolerance, but is used to justify an appalling array of human rights violations.

People fight wars, I know that, to fight a war for social justice, and rise up against oppressors, is understandable, but to do so in the name of God is quite another thing.

I would venture to say that none of you in the west really have any understanding of the reality of life in the Mid east under Islamic rule. I would expect that as moderators you take part in the discussion in a respectfull manner, state your views but do not squelch the participants in it or ridicule them (us) we are talking about some of the most important issues in the world, besides this issue OBEs pale in importance.

Regards Mustardseed

Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Mustardseed

Quote from: mon9999 on February 24, 2007, 09:57:49
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBeaHbE-Q2s

Oh my God I was sitting here and drinking my coffea and started lauging so hard I spilled it all over my computer. That was so funny :-D
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Nay

QuoteFirst of all Nay, this is all posted in the section of "world religions". This section was as you know made in order to keep those, who wanted to discuss such things separate from the other threads. Are you telling me that even here, this subject should not be discussed? YOU  moderators made these separations so let us be. We have followed the rules so let us do our thing, if you don't like the subject look the other way grin, we do not force anyone to take part. The issue at hand obviously is interesting to us. We are both trying our best to be decent and polite, give and take a few outbursts here and there we keep the rules of the AP.

You know darn well I do not care if discussions take place.  It's not about that anymore with you two, it's about being right, having the last word, and loving to hear yourselves talk. 

By all means, continue to go at it with each other, it matters not to me anymore if you both look like arrogant fools.

Ryuji

QuoteThe Bible's Old Testament is chock full of it!

and apparently A-OK with Gang-rape too

Judges 19:

24Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.

25But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

26Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light.

27And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.

28And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an butt, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.

29And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.





Mustardseed

#93
yes the OT is, but the NT is not and that is why we are Christians, Christ annulled the OT. Now find me some of that sort of things there. As for beng arrogant fools well I have been called worse. I am interested in this conversation and  in his reasoning. Thats all. To me its not a matter of who is right but of what is right.
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

Ryuji

#94
any opinion on this :

Cruelty and Violence in the New Testament
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html


Matthew 10: 34-36
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.

:|

James S

Hi Mustardseed,

Remember my point of view on Christianity comes from having spent 16 years in Christian churches - Presbyterian, Assemblies of God and Salvation Army.

If the OT is no longer relevant, then why is it continually preached and referenced so extensively with in the Christian church. Yes I know Jesus came to nullify the laws of the OT, as I said - he was anti-religion. So then why did a new religion - the Christian religion have to be formed out of his spiritual and non-religious teachings?

Yes I have belief systems, definitely, and I freely admit that. I am in no ways above or better than anyone else here. But I constantly check these belief systems to see if they are serving me or not, and if they are not, then I let go of them. Not always willingly, but I let go of them.
Not to make me better than anyone else, but to make me better for myself, better within myself. To try and compare myself - my beliefs, to anyone else defeats that purpose.

The way I see it, ALL religions have their share of violence and destruction, and ALL religions are the product of human ego and the need for self gratification of some kind. To me, all religions have caused separation, from both other people and especially from God.
To promote separation, especially from God is to promote separation from our own Divine selves, and for me, that is a belief system that most definitely does not serve me.

But I'll repeat - does not server ME.
Though I've made my personal opinions on religions quite clear, I will not judge those who choose to follow religions. That is entirely a matter of personal choice - free will.
I would only ask others, does the religion, or indeed belief systems of any kind serve you? If you can truly answer yes, then all is well. But take the time to check in with yourself, with the true self within you. If you feel the need to justify or defend your beliefs, especially by comparing them to another's, or by trying to convince others that yours is right and theirs is wrong, then can you honestly say that your beliefs are serving you?

Blessings,
James.

CFTraveler

Completely unrelated to the current turn this convo has taken, but as a reply to the original post:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1253156,00.html



outofbodydude

Now the question is... how long before it is discovered to be a hoax? (Just like every other artifact that "proved" Big J's existance)
Escaping Velocity. Not just eternity, but infinity.

Mustardseed


Dear James

I am probably on my last leg in this thread; it seems futile to go on any longer. Seeing that is the case, let me try to explain my thoughts on the subject, and conclude the issue as I see it, to you and anyone who is interested. I understand your reasoning and where you come from very well, and I applaud you for seriously considering the importance of living a life in harmony with your consciousness. Many do not even bother. For now, however let's just try to be unbiased OK. I will try to take my Christian "hat" off and you  try to take off yours, whatever kind of hat it is.

I understand your observation, and agree that there are a multitude of religions "out there" and most, if not all teach that man is separate from God and that something is needed to breech this separation. This is the belief of Millions of people. Very few actually believe that they are "one with God" at birth or that God is within them. It is from what I understand, a relative new concept, rooted in a western form of Buddhism. (we are talking demographically here so lets not argue numbers) In any case most people believe that they have to either Pray, sacrifice, Meditate, or what have you, to get in connection with him, grow in their understanding of Him (for the sake of brevity I refer to God as He, no need to get sassy Girls  ). In other words to please Him they must do something. Action is needed. You very accurately stated this fact. I suppose that even the ones who believe that God is inside them still meditate or something to become enlightened.

If we then analyze what these religions all say must be done, to connect or please God or understand him in a deeper way, I would say we have a good picture of what the particular religion "consists of". In other words the religions true color would be shown by what it teaches its followers to do in His name.

For most original religions shamanistic animistic religions, a type of personal or tribal responsibility was often what was expected. Mostly sacrifices to appease His wrath. In Buddhism as I understand, it is a lifestyle change, rejection of the material, as well as meditation, in Hinduism very similar ideas are held as "pleasing to God, or the Gods"

Muslims, Jews being monotheists, are actually very close to each other and believe basically similar things. Both are in part based on the OT, and its concept of God, and both are (like Christians) elitist. They differ in a few ways. The Jews believe that a personal keeping of the Law is necessary. The religious law being a complex conglomeration of eating and life style rules, as well as temple worship. You cannot however become a Jew but must be born one.

The Muslims also have these complex lifestyle rules as well as the temple worship, but has an additional defining element that I see in no other religion, called Jihad.

Jihad is a very central point in Islam. It is basically divided in "the little and the big Jihad". The most important is the big Jihad. It consists of the 5 pillars of Islam, all things that a Muslim must do, all the life-rules. The little Jihad is different, it is Holy struggle defined as physical struggle. It is the commandment of God through Muhammed to fight, defensively or aggressively for the faith. In Jihad another Islamic doctrine called Shahada is embedded. Shahada is basically martyrdom. It is originally meant to be understood as "witness" or sample and it is a vital part of Jihad and thereby Islam.

In a situation such as the Palestinian struggle, it (Shahada) is taught by Imams to children in kindergarten, and by the time children reach their preteens they all see Shahada as the biggest thing they can do in their lives. In their particular situation it refers to suicide bombings, killing innocent people through killing one self,
but it has over time had many different physical resolutions, though always meaning giving up your life for Islam, to die as a martyr in an armed struggle (Jihad). I expect that you are old enough to remember the Iran-Irak war where thousands upon thousands were sent by Khomeini and Hussain to be cannon fodder. All of them wearing the white robes of Shahada, they would run, some even unarmed, into the firing lines of their opponents, being assured that if they gave their lives in Jihad becoming Shahada they would be in pleasing to God.

Now James these are the teachings and commandments of the Koran, and if you would do some research on this you would find it documented very extensively. Just look up "Children and Suicide bombings" on the YOUTUBE and you can witness the Immams there, testifying to the authenticity of Shahada as well as Jihad, being proper Islamic doctrine, and one that is accepted taught and lived by Millions of Muslims.

Now to the Christians. I know very well that the crusades were done in the name of Christ, I also know of all the OT slaughters and in the New Testament there is a fair bit of bloodshed in Revelation and the Coming of Christ etc. Most of it done by Him, actually. The crusades and all the witch hunts and Inquisition were largely due to ignorance. The people who were ruled by the Catholic Church did not have any idea of what God wanted, because they never had a book to read, seeing that the Bible was in Latin. By the time it was translated and the common people started reading it, it became obvious that Christ (as pictured in the NT) had the nature of a Lamb, and that the message was nonviolence. Most of the examples of Violence, that Ryuji linked to are as you know metaphors, Christians are not expected to pluck out their eyes, and as for the slaughter in the End time it is largely understood as a metaphor as well. Notice that the sword of Jesus comes out of his mouth. It is believed however that becoming Christian and changing your faith might bring a sword on your head, from those you formerly called your brethren, be they atheist or Muslim or just ticked off. Someone claiming to speak the Truth is not easily accepted, by others claiming the same, and Christians are promised persecution. Martyrs are common in Christianity as well but none of them died killing for their faith. It is simply not a Christian doctrine. This is how the religions expect their followers to live, in the hard times and the easy ones.

If one could make a metaphor I would say Religions are like Vehicles. Christianity is then an average car, like Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoists, Parsee's and a range of animistic original religions they have been the cause of killings, yes even mass killings and some have even used them as a weapon to kill, most of these being criminals. However these cars were not built to be weapons but a way of transport.

Islam Is also a vehicle but it is in my opinion, in justifying the doctrine of Jihad and Shahada, an armored vehicle, built not only to transport but also attack defend and engage in physical war. There are aspects of Islam that are simply not present in Christianity, or any other religious belief system like the ones mentioned above, the most noteworthy being as I explained, Jihad and Shahada, if they were part of Christianity as actual doctrine, I think it would be reasonable to assume that the world would by now be Christian. !!!! It is not.

My hat is now officially back on .
Christianity embraces persuasion, it uses "good deeds as bait to the ones they aim at converting. (Whether one believes that to be a good thing or immoral, is unimportant, but may be an additional very interesting discussion). When someone leaves the faith of these other religions, be it Christianity Buddhism or what have you, they may be ostracized, maligned or looked down on, yes, but if Jeehad was to stand up in his Mosque and denounce Islam, depending on his whereabouts he would be in big trouble. Apostasy is punishable by death in Islam. In the Hadith, Muhammed said "whosoever changes his Islamic religion , Kill him" Vol 9:57, this is also factual social reality in many Muslim countries.
Personally I do not believe that Jesus wanted to make a new religion. I believe that He was trying to show man that Love is greater than hate, and that if we want to connect with God, humility and sacrifice and letting go of ego and pride in the only way. Sadly we all fall so short. He knew that too and I think He wanted us to understand that being perfect and obedient humble and so forth is not possible for us. Through understanding this we then by ourselves come to the conclusion that the only thing we can do, is to be as Loving as we can. Not to condemn others when they fall short because we fall short ourselves. Not to poke at others mistakes because we make bigger ones.

I understand that Ryuij will naturally use this against me saying I am poking at Jeehad, being a hypocrite, but I am really not. Another central point in Christianity you see, is to tell the truth, and I believe that the Truth sets people free. We should tell people the truth as we understand it, even you telling me the Truth as you see it , or Nay or Ryuij is bound to eventually clear the air and if nothing else help us to agree to disagree. Be honest and speak our mind, show our true colors. Some will receive it and some will not.

This incidentally brings me to the last questionable teaching of Islam that I want to bring to your attention, the doctrine of Taqiyya (Taqeya, Taqiya). In the west very few people understand this very important doctrine. Taqiyya roughly translates into "lying for the faith". A Muslim may tell any lie when they are threatened or whenever it is seen as an advantage of the faith. In short, a Muslim can lie as a holy duty to deceive and gain an advantage over the unbeliever. Muhammad sanctioned this when he said; "he who keeps secrets shall soon attain his objectives". This Doctrine is very central to social life of Muslims, in the west specifically, to most folks in these countries, it is a hidden part of Islam. In the light of this it is possible that Jeehad is simply covering up these facts, we will never know. It is a very commonly used tactic with Immams and Muslims in general in the west. It is used in debates of all kinds and naturally does not help to clear the waters. For the most part it is used in connection with the inevitably "you don't understand Arabic, that is not what the Koran says". No one does apparently,...... except Muslims. The doctrine of Taqiyya is an almost perfect weapon in every public debate. Lying and deceiving is the most common "basic applied Political debating strategy, and as we know it is a very destructive element in understanding the true nature of any given situation.

So James to end a long post, can you really say with conviction that Islam and Christianity is all the same. If they were the same the followers would act the same, and if the Christians you left behind in the Churches as well as most my former associates, were the same as and acted the same as Muslims , they would not be sitting idle by I assure you. This Forum would probably be closed as well, and if anyone of you moderators or Admin could be identified .......well you do the math on that one. Lets not even get started on Gays and Feminists, but......Christianity is not anything like Islam.

It is not my aim to bring Christianity into this debate as the Truth, granted it has served me well, but I have also matured in my faith and no longer adhere to certain beliefs, but ascribe them to be metaphors rather than anything else. The central thought that God loves the World I have kept. In many ways we actually believe much the same ethics, but can you honestly say that all belief systems are the same? Is the acid test, "if they serve YOU" or if they serve others? If your belief system used violence in any form toward a fellow human of another faith, should it not be renounced as false?  It is my belief that a religion that justifies violence is definitely a false religion. It is against the very foundation of Karmic law. I know you agree on that. It is against what most people here on the Pulse believes to be true and beneficial and moral. Sadly most are so busy tearing down the hypocrisy they see in the Churches and Christianity, that they do not even bother to understand much less address the much greater danger of a violent religion such as Islam. (probably due to a geographical proximity factor, aren't that many Muslims around in the US,) but if all we as a community is concerned about is whether "we individually are served by our beliefs", we become isolated James, each one just introspecting examining his own bellybutton. It is also necessary, that in a public debate the beliefs of others are equally examined, and if they fall short of what is fair and humane, we should most certainly speak up.

I know this is a long post and probably goes over the head of most of our younger posters, I will get a jab or two and can handle that. I do have a hard time being told I should "shut my yap" and that I am an "arrogant fool", but that is Nay for you, she is probably so used to breaking up fights, and like any mother just wants some "peace in her house". I will try to take that is good spirits as well Nay. Hope we are still friends. It would be interesting to hear Gandalfs take on this post, he knows quite a bit about this subject as well.

Regards Mustardseed






Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

James S

Hi Mustardseed,

I understand the points you make, and I (hope I) also understand the place you are coming from - a place of spiritual christianity, as opposed to fundamental dogmatic christianity, in which case, you are following the principals Jesus was trying to teach us about.

I guess I should clarify more my thoughts about what serves us.
To me, what serves us is what helps us to grow and evolve  - it is the direction of the soul, not the ego. What serves us most is love - firstly love of self, which then enables love of others. Apart from Jesus' quote "Love others as you would love yourself", there isn't a whole lot taught in religions that promotes this.

IT could be argued (and I believe has been... extensively) that Fundamentalist Christian beliefs are no less excessive and separatist than fundamentalist Muslim beliefs. There have been Islamic scholars who have tried to put across to their followers that the whole concept of Jihad has been grossly misinterpreted. They have tried to tell their followers that their way is a way of love and tolerance.
Unfortunately, as it is with many christians, the message of love seems to be lost amongst the many messages of fear.

Blessings,
James.