The Gurdjieff work

[Sentential]

Its gotta be a cult. Ill explain:

True avatars of the faith do not start organizations or have some sort of ritual to join. The fact that they seem overtly cloak-and-dagger seems odd to me. I dont understand why knowledge is needed to be kept under lock and key.

We all have our gifts and talents. But I do not abuse them, nor do I claim to belive that there is a crusade at hand.

To be perfectally honest, we are all in this together. I try to keep my knowledge as open as possible. However my more inner details I keep with my closest of friends. There are things I only want a few people knowning about me []

I'd trust your first insticnt and keep away with these guys. Especially since the "leader" seems to have a level of arrogence I dont care for. Our gifts are just that. They are not to be used as a tool for controlling people.

My guide turned sour the moment I read your text. His advice is to find the stregenth within yourself to find identity. These people only seek to use you for their <most likely> dilluded and psychopathic purposes.

OBEs and other psionic abilites are actually easy to learn if you have the patience. No fricking 6 month course (aka brainwashing) will tell you how to do it.

[BlackBox]

Trust your instincts.

The "Work" is highly intrigueing -- I personally make it a daily-regime to follow the 4th Way. I may not be following a Gurdjieffian-group, but I know that from their perspective, clandestine/cagey tactics are necessary. It may sound "iffy" to you, but I assure you if you continue to read, you will understand that by the very nature of man, it is necessary to operate such organizations within concentric-circles.

What you bring up is peculiar because you are speaking of one group, one set of individuals. By the very nature of man, what is pure originally is distorted progressively as it is passed down.

In regards to supernormal-abilities, this is a very complicated subject. Some people learn to acquire particular abilities while others gain the ability to uplift themselves in conscious-perception to such a degree that all supernormal-abilities are very practically percieved -- if you can understand the significance of this, you will see that there is a big difference between learning to do something and understanding the interwined-nature of every Science connecting all these phenomenons by practical-cosmic-laws.

So the Gurdjieffian movement can be very fruitful -- yet for those who progress in such an organization, by their conscious-perception, learn to view those who have not yet reached such heights in such a way that secrecy is for their own good. Imagine going back 2000 years ago when tribal-religion and dogma was the supreme form of science among the politicians and imagine someone giving them guns. An extreme example, but for one who has reached a mature-consciousness, that is to say an objective-outlook, the realization of such NEEDS for cagey behaviour becomes quite understood.

If you can view these thoughts impartially, that is quite a feat by itself -- but if you experience emotions that lead your thoughts and actions (instead of the other way around) then perhaps you should delve into this subject further. All knowledge is already dispersed for seekers to dig and find...what's funny is that people don't realize that one seeker may find a rock, the other an apple, the other a treasure, the other a dead-body, et cetera. Everything is there, yet we only find what we are able.

[jilola]

quote:Imagine going back 2000 years ago when tribal-religion and dogma was the supreme form of science among the politicians and imagine someone giving them guns

Imagine going back 200 years and telling them to use the horse to pull te plough instead of themselves?
Imagine showing someone the wondrous invention, door, that allows you to avoid banging your brain to a pulp?
Imagine an advanced person doing everything in his ken to help more people become like him?

Sorry, a bit sarcastic. But it's all intentional[]

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[slydeni]

Black box--
I see what you are saying regarding the "cagey" approach. I understand that the Fourth Way people believe that disseminating the "truths" they have discovered leads to a distortion of the truth. But doesn't that sortof imply that they are a bit insecure with what they call the TRUTH. I mean THE TRUTH can not be distorted can it? All of the major spiritual icons of human history - once they found their TRUTH - longed for its dissemination with no fear of distortion. Yes...I agree distortion happens. But there will inevitably be a surviving mainline of THE TRUTH that will exist no?

Look...as I am typing this I am seeing that this can be a debate that could go on for a while both ways. BOTTOM LINE for me is that I am a seeker of THE TRUTH. One of the major reasons I am apprehensive to "devote" 6 mos. to the Gurdjieff people (as they requested me to do) is that I have no idea what they believe. And one clear reason that they could argue that maintaining a secretive approach is of lynchpin importance ...is that they are worshiping (or using the energy of, or devoting prayer to- whatever you wanna call it) an entity that if public got hold of...well... it would make them look real bad!--- say-- ummm... satan for example.

I asked this simple question of them...and I would ask any secretive, unknown spiritual group that was meeting with me and delving into my life this question: Is there any type of satanic worship, or devil worship type activities going on? I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED A STR8 ANSWER TO THIS. I mean how hard is it? In answering this question...yes or no... is their idea of the TRUTH gonna be distorted as it is passed down? Does the whole foundation of their belief and practice rely on not letting someone know what they are getting into? Surely if they did worship what is popularly known as satan...it would not look good
for them...and thus when they meet prospective seekers (like me) they would not want to tell. If they have justified this to themselves thru the Fourth Way Self-transformative techniques in some way that modern society has misinterpreted the whole idea of the devil and that utilizing techniques that are "satanic"...are really ok...well..I'd just like to know before I submit to the washing.

maybe you can answer better than those I have experienced so far BlackBook... would The Fourth Way be viewed as satanic by the laity? In other words- would Gurjieffs work be viewed as satanic if it weren't truly understood?

peace...

[BlackBox]

First you must separate Gurdjieff and his teachings from this particular "group" you have encountered. If I were you, as you say "incredulous" from your email, then I wouldn't be able to feel comfortable joining a group that is rigid.

So trust your instincts and drop this idea of even interacting with them. Your inquiries in regards to "satanic" aspects have no relevance or bearing to what the 4th-Way introduces to "spirituality", or I should say, conscious-evolution.

The main-effect intended to be produced by 4th-Way principles is the shedding of personality-based-attributes/qualities that exist in us like filth on fine-china. We do not realize it. We are not aware of it. There is a gradation, a scale in which one form of consciousness supersedes another. Gurdjieff uses the terms [(1) sleep - (2) waking sleep/relative-consciousness - (3) Self-consciousness - (4) Objective-consciousness] to present the different states and levels of perception that adhere to a corresponding Knowledge which is acquired by the objective-discernment upon quantums of datum. Hence wisdom.

Regardless of what I say -- of what efforts I exert into explaining the theory -- ultimately the "Work" is relevant only in its practical application. Once you dedicate yourself to read Gurdjieffian principles and THEN apply them in your daily-regime, you will begin the struggle. This struggle is like the results of two pieces of sandpaper producing friction which each swipe against each other. (1) Energy is produced and (2) two aspects are "smoothened" when one conquers over the other. What occurs in the frame-of-mind of the individual as a consequence can only be described subjectively. Therefore to know it, you must do it. It can't be acquired by short-cuts or by clinging to what the new-agers call "love + light". It has to be earned, and ultimately I believe all humans know that this truly is the only path towards conscious-evolution -- such an evolution that has certainly no affinity to "satanism".

You may find a group. They may be a good group or they may be a tainted group. What is important is that you realize that the "Work" is not strictly dependent on others -- on the contrary, it is based upon "freeing" onself from all forms of externalities. There are many paths to truth. It is just that these paths adhere to the law of scales just like everything else. Particularly that one is more objective-by-nature than the other. If you follow one path, let that be your path by all of your dedication and daily-conscious-labors, but don't let an organization be instrinsic in your development. It is but a tool for your growth and if the people comprising it help you in spotting your mechanical-traits and faults, then horray! But if they do not, then move on. Simple as that.

It must be said that some people appreciate and value one sort of "Way" more than others. Myself for example, I am very new to it, yet I have such a higher valuation of its principles that my mind has naturally crystallized many things in a short period of time. Now I feel comfortable speaking in regards to the many facets, the many aspects of the Work, because I have empirically established their practice in my daily-life. Once anyone sincerely does this, true valuation and understanding of the principles-at-hand arrive.

[Sentential]

I still get cultish vibes. Alot of time people get overly wrapped up in dogma. I think its best to stay away from them

[ondincito]

Hi, heres my 2 cents on Gurdjief.

Gurdjief was a Russian/Turkish man who was on a path to enlightment.  He was born if I remember correctly in 1890, and in the early 20th century, went on to be schooled in esoteric matters in Tibet.
Gurdjief's basic esoteric pyscology, that our mind  has centers, ie, intelectual, motor, instinctive, emotional and sexual centers, is not his original idea, but rather what he brought over from the buddist tibetian masters of the time. Please realize we are talking "mind" here, not the physical "brain"
In a nut shell, the "ego" takes control of these mental centers, and does as it pleases, hence the need to abolish the ego, and attain enlightment. So that the true self would control these centers.
Many gruops have been formed based on Gurdjief's and his diciple Oupensky's, works, mostly known as "the fourth way"

These teachings in Tibet were concidered sacred, and not to be shared with anyone unless they were ready.  This is the reason why most Gurdjief schools are "hermetic" in nature, testing out the curious before they go deep into the teachings.


It should be noted that in most forms of buddism, and gnosticsm, one isnt tought everything on the spot, and right there, one is tested first.  For knowledge is only attained thru direct expirience. It is much prefered that the buddist stuent, or gnostic student, expirience and learn by him self thru the guidence of Gurus, than to be told directly the nature of "reality" and enlightment.  Many of Gurdjief's centers hold this view as well, hence why they reacted the way they did to your questions.


While I my self am not in any way affiliated to the Gurdief/Ouspensky movements, I am Gnostic, and we view both as enlightned masters, and we are requiered to study thier works.



I hope this helps.

Ondincito

[overfien]

Internally, his instructor was the Logos Samael; this is why Gurdjieff's work seems so much like Gnosis. Samael Aun Weor indicates that Gurdjieff made some errors and omitted many things partially correct, in particular  on the subjects Alchemy, Kabbalah and Meditation.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

If the truth shall set you free then why must you chain yourself to secrecy in order to be free? I know what I would do, but I am not you. It is your choice. You know what is best for you. Do what you want but be aware of manipulation tactics, which are pretty classic, so you are sure it is your choice.

[ondincito]

Manipulation tactics? heh thats quite hilarious. question, have you ever been in one of these so called "hermetic" secretive groups? Im just curious.
I'm gnostic, theres many forms of gnosticsm currently out there, but all are pretty much "secretive" and heremtic in nature. To actually "get in" and be a "gnostic" would take aproximatly 1 and a half years of study in some schools, and a little less than a year in others. Most of the time the courses are desgined to make you think and choose your re own way.  You can leave at any point in time.
Esoteric secrets are revealed, things most people do not understand. Not because they arent capable of understanding, but simply because most dont want to.

Organized esoteric religions, such as wicca, gnosticsm, and tibetan buddism, all have chambers or "levels" of study, and dicipline.
Thats the key word, "dicipline"  The stupid fluff bunny new age movement hates dicipline.  Believing that esoteric powers are merely to be honed and used. What a bunch of bullcrap.  If everyone in reality had these esoteric powers, the news would be filled with cases about it, but the truth is, most people are liers, and hoaxes.
Because of this, certain religions, like the Gurdjief path, gnosticsm, many forms of buddism, have chosen to select who "joins", how and when.  Last thing we want is followers.  We want thinkers, people who think for them selves and yet follow dicipline. Fluffy new agers never understand that.
know this...
true knowledge is never given to you, never tought, you merely learn it, expirience it your self. Only then can you know something, not by reading, not because your "guru" tells you, only by expirience.

[Rastus]

Let me give you some Metaphysical Examples.

AP.  'Everyone' here want to AP.  Most can't tell you why.  Fine.  How many of the new people have actually thought through ALL the ramifications associated with AP?  None.  Because they are incapable of thinking through all the possibilities associated with AP.  I'm not talking about watching your neighbor in the shower, I'm talking about deep spiritual issues associated with the mis-use of AP.  So, if someone asked a particularly pointed question, do you tell them the 'truth' or do you give them a more didactic answer will help them more in the long run?

NEG's.  Do you tell some particular person that All their problems are self-induced?  Or do you blame 'Negs' and help them through the centering and balancing that will help eliminate their problems?

Enlightenment.  If I tell you that your here on earth, by choice, to raise the conciousness of the planet as a sentient being, does it mean anything to you at all?  Do you take my word for it, or do you choose to not value it because you doubt me?  Or do you choose to believe something else entirely?

[ondincito]

good post rast

a few thoughts...instead of "helping" ppl merely be with them, till they find thier way...dont bother defining enlightment becuase we havent exprienced it yet, better to define our current situation, which we can so easily learn about by simply observing one self..
but great post nonetheless.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Originally posted by ondincito

Manipulation tactics? heh thats quite hilarious.

I did not mean to imply that the group the original poster is dealing with is using manipulation or is being decietful. I just wanted to stress that the poster be aware of such tatics so that he/she can see if they are being used to manipulate them so they can make an aware decision. The news is filled with people manipulating others, so it is hardly hilarious for one to question the motives of another. If they are truly sincere I would think that they would understand one's concern and not be offended. I am not judging this group for I do not know them.

quote:Originally posted by ondincito

question, have you ever been in one of these so called "hermetic" secretive groups?

No, my spiritual/metaphysical journey has been mostly solitary and I have never been involved in any organized groups. That is just not part of my path, atleast at this time. That is not to say that such groups are not helpful or have anything to offer but we are all different and are to learn in different ways.

[slydeni]

Hello. Allow me to introduce myself primarily: I am Chase. I have not posted many times on this site but read it frequently. I recently (over the past few months) have been meeting with some people who are in The Gurdjieff Work. This could be a very long story. In an attempt to be succinct...I will be succinct. I was frightened by them. I asked a million questions and felt like none of them were answered. These were questions I would ask of any religion/ philosophy that ws new to me and that was trying to get me to "work" with them. They had a very secretive, clandestine type approach. They questioned me a lot, and mentioned a probationary group that I would have to commit 6 months to before I could decide if it was for me or not. I asked what would happen if I bailed prior to 6mos.-- they did not answer directly and sortof ran around the question and said that since I asked the question...it was obvious I was not ready to take a sincere spiritual step...and work with them. To Gurdjieff's credit- he has a lot of very interesting ideas in his books and such. He's def a rebel. The guy I was meeting with 2x a month said he could have a concious obe at will...right there at Starbux he said he could do it if he wished. And this was due to the transformative work he indulged in with Gurdjieff's work.

My question: Who are these people? Are they safe? Are they a cult? Are they satanists? Are they capable of dangerous activites? Please if you know anything about them...let me know.