Are OBEs actually lucid dreams?

[James S]

Hi Atlas,

Sorry if my points came across as a little vague. I was just rattling off ideas as they came to me. I'll see if I can clear my thoughts up a bit.

First thought:
The Hugh Everett example is not really about a scientists role to prove or disprove. It's about the idea that often a published theory can be openly ridiculed without any substantive evidence to show it is wrong.

Second thought:
The Zero-Point Field theory is based on Heisenberg's uncertainty principal:
"The more precisely the position is determined, the less precisely the momentum is known in this instant, and vice versa. "
--Heisenberg, uncertainty paper, 1927

"There is a rule in quantum physics called the Heisenberg uncertainty principle that states (with certainty, as it happens) that no quantum object, such as a microscopic pendulum, can ever be brought completely to rest. Any microscopic object will always possess a residual random jiggle thanks to quantum fluctuations....It is standard in quantum theory to apply the Heisenberg uncertainty principle to electromagnetic waves, since electric and magnetic fields flowing through space oscillate like a pendulum. At every possible frequency there will always be a tiny bit of electromagnetic jiggling going on. And if you add up all these ceaseless fluctuations, what you get is a background sea of light whose total energy is enormous: the zero-point field."
- Brilliant Disguise:Light, Matter, and the Zero-Point Field By Bernhard Haisch

Look for the above article on the Astral Pulse main site under "Articles" It is quite fascinating!

As to this artticles relevance to OBE's - Yeah, well I was clutching at straws a bit here, but I was trying to point out that such theories can be produced, and seem to be correct even though we have no physical evidence. OBE's have not really produced much in the way of physical evidence that they are real, yet many people here know them to be reality.

Third tought:
I agree with you on this point, but would Einstein have gained such acceptance if he set out to prove more radical metaphysical ideas? Nowadays unless you're Stephen Hawking or someone with his reputation your success as a professional researcher is based on grants, peer popularity, and ego.
Thing is,  as conventional science researchers gain more credential within their field, their ego's can tend to expand. So to do Metaphysical "experts" until we get the kind of articles that Mikji posted where such "definitive" statements are made.

No matter how much you learn or how knowledgeable you become, never loose that child-like curiosity and open mindedness.

James S

- You don't choose the belief, the belief chooses you!

[Atlas]

>>Atlas you bad man , somehow you joined the triangle of evil & became "Axis", hehe.<<

Haha...I know, I saw this too. Come on guys, I'm not THAT bad  

Atlas

[Atlas]

James

>>Look for the above article on the Astral Pulse main site under "Articles" It is quite fascinating!<<

I will check it out, thanks.

>>I agree with you on this point, but would Einstein have gained such acceptance if he set out to prove more radical metaphysical ideas? Nowadays unless you're Stephen Hawking or someone with his reputation your success as a professional researcher is based on grants, peer popularity, and ego.
Thing is, as conventional science researchers gain more credential within their field, their ego's can tend to expand<<

I think so. The problem is that there is a lack of proof for these metaphysical thing, besides anecdotes here and there. I am not denying that there is resistance in the scientific community regarding these issues, but as I've said in posts before, it seems there would be many ways to bring this UP FRONT in the public eye, if it worked.

Good/true theories tend to find their way in. I am reminded of that russian scientist, Dr. Podkletnov, and his anti-gravity device. He said a few years back he had accidently stumbled across a way to decrease gravity. At first he was laughed at because this is a "taboo" subject, but guess what? Boeing is looking into it now, and so is nasa, and he claims he now has a device that CREATES gravity waves. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong. The point is, if there is something solid behind it, people will look into it, and not just men-in-black types trying to shut it down.

Again, I don't care at all about ego size, as long as their theories are right, and they are figuring things out.

Atlas

[Leyla]

What about the people who_can_manipulate reality?

I have seen photo's of an Asian man on the government payroll who can use telekinesis. (Can't remember his name for the life of me) In front of many witnesses he moved a live beetle out from inside a glass bell-jar. With the highest speed camera available they caught only three picture. One of the beetle inside the jar, one of the beetle halfway through the jar, one of the beetle on the otherside of the jar. He replicated this many times, under various controlled conditions, with many different objects, watches and such.

I have sat in front of a Buddhist monk who told me my birthday and parents names; me having just walked in randomly, unplanned, off the street.

I personally, have done remote viewing with accuracy, and can line up friends, strangers and acquaintances around the block to attest to this.
How am I doing it? I dunno. But I know it's possible.

I once did this with a very difficult man much like yourself. For skeptics no "proof" is ever enough.  The entire time he kept deliberately trying to throw me off track by tossing out false and un-asked-for information. I didn't fall for any of it which seemed to tinkle him off. (I tell people specifically to say only "yes" "no" and "keep going")

I began by asking him if he had recently visited a space museum.
No. I haven't been in any museum in a long time.
Are you sure? Have you seen recently a large mural of the universe? Or space? I'm seeing stars and planets.
No. No murals or paintings. You're wrong.
(Turned out he was an astronomer, working at NASA.)
I then asked if he was part Indian.
No.
You're sure? No, Indians in your family tree anywhere? I'm seeing Native Americans. Feathers and turquoise.
Nope. Wrong again.
(Turns out he was from Oklahoma, born and raised next door to an Indian reservation where his family still lived; and he had just come home from visiting them.)

You simply can't win with a skeptic. These so called "scientific" atheistic types are more fundamentalist and obviously biased in there beliefs than any right-wing Christian you can find. The Amazing Randy has been sued many times over, is known to be a blatent liar, and no matter what "proof" you laid down in front of him he'd say it wasn't enough. No, I am not surprised in the slightest no one has ever won his bet. Nothing ever qualifies as proof.

About the atheist skeptic. He came around at the end of the reading convinced I was "real." Keep in mind this reading was done over the Internet.

Seizing on the opportunity to rub it in- I called him a fool and  began saying I was a charlatan and a fraud and I had manipulated him with my clever techniques. He became angry and embarrassed and asked how I had done it.

I told him I had been reading his facial expressions through the computer screen the entire time. Ha Ha!

He didn't find it funny.

[Atlas]

Leyla

>>I personally, have done remote viewing with accuracy, and can line up friends, strangers and acquaintances around the block to attest to this.
How am I doing it? I dunno. But I know it's possible.<<

Ok. I am a stranger. Can you do a remote viewing experiment with me? What can we work out? What kind of experiment can we do? I would be more than happy to know OBEs were true, because I want to have one. But the evidence I see shows me that there is no way to prove they are not just lucid dreams.

Atlas

[Leyla]

Certainly. I would be glad to "work something out" so long as you're not hostil like that athiest guy. E-mail me.

[mikji]

While looking for information on lucid dreaming, I ran into this article:

http://lucidity.com/LD9DIR.html">Dreaming, Illusion and Reality

It makes the argument that OBEs are lucid dreams. It's worth a read.

Excerpts:

But now let us return to the other enigma we were discussing:
the out-of-body experience. The OBE takes on a confusingly
wide variety of forms. A person having an OBE may for example
find his sense of identity apparently associated with a
second, non-physical body--a "soul," "astral body," "spirit,"
or, to suggest a term having a certain charm, "out-of-body
body" (OBB)! Equally, while "out-of-body", one may entirely
dispense with the inelegance of bodies of any sort, and
experience oneself as a point of light or a freely mobile
center of awareness. In some OBEs, one will seem to see one's
physical body while in other cases one finds but an empty bed
or someone else entirely.

Let us take the case of one "astral projector" who wrote that
before he knew what his OBEs were, he "was much afraid each
time" he had one. He explained that his projections always
began with him lying in bed, feeling a weight holding him
down. The next thing he knew he would be out of his body.
During one OBE, he walked around his bedroom and looked down
the stairs into the kitchen. He decided to look at himself in
the mirror, but curiously could not see anything when he did
so. On another occasion, when returning from "astral
adventures," he thought, "I'll look at myself on the bed."
But when he looked, he saw his mother, who "had been passed
over quite a long time." Yet curiously, finding his dead
mother in bed instead of his sleeping body didn't lead him to
the conclusion that he was dreaming; he took this to mean
that his mother's spirit would always be with him whenever he
was "projected." http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_8ball.gif" border=0>

Two features of this OBE report are particularly suggestive.
One is that upon "leaving his body" the astral projector
walked around "his bedroom" and looked into "the kitchen."
This added to the second fact that he expected to find his
own sleeping body in bed upon his return, indicates that he
conceived of himself as being in a non-physical ("astral")
body, but in an environment identical to the physical world.
It is exactly this kind of contradictory and confused mixture
of mental and material elements that is also characteristic
of the pre-lucid or naive dreamer. Secondly, note the
projector's failure to consider the possibility that if his
physical body wasn't in the bed he was looking in, it might
not be the real bed he was looking at, or the real bedroom,
or the real kitchen, either.

These kinds of minor lapses of rationality and the failure to
question the anomalies that confront one seem to me quite
characteristic of non-lucid dreaming and OBEs.

___


This feeling of knowing "for sure" is quite characteristic of
the tenacity with which people cling to the conclusions they
draw from their out-of-body experiences. Wherever else they
may differ, for instance whether the "two bodies" are or are
not connected by a "silver cord," persons who have had out-
of-the-body experiences are quite unanimous in being
'absolutely certain' that they are not dreams. Yet during
ordinary dreams we are usually convinced at the time of the
actuality of what we later discover to have been delusions.

____


There are two ways of broadly viewing the results of these
studies. First of all, we have the summary of Karlis Osis,
Director of Research at the American Society for Psychical
Research (A.S.P.R.). This society, in an effort to produce
evidence for survival of death, undertook an extensive
investigation of OBE perception. [13] In the course of this
study, approximately 100 subjects, all of whom believed they
were proficient in inducing OBEs and possessed paranormal
perceptual abilities during these OBEs, were tested under
controlled conditions. While confined to one room at the
A.S.P.R., the subjects induced OBEs and "visited" a distant
target room, attempting afterwards to describe in detail what
they had "seen" while there. A comparison of their reports
with the actual contents of the target room revealed, in all
but a few cases, absolutely no indication of any
correspondence whatsoever. In other words, in the great
majority of these cases, there was no evidence supporting
accurate OBE perception, nor for the validity of the
subjects' convictions that they had actually left their
bodies. Moreover, these subjects were described by Osis as
being "the creme of the claimants" of OBE. I believe the
results of this study strongly supports the "OBE as
misinterpreted lucid dream" interpretation offered above.
___

What I am proposing is that the select minority of accurate
OBE reports are simply cases of dream telepathy.
To some people, this may seem like explaining the mysterious
in terms of the more mysterious. Dream telepathy is a fact
only barely established and in no way satisfactorily
understood or explained. A question for future research is
whether lucid dreamers and OBErs are more conducive to
telepathy than ordinary dreamers.

___


Any comments?