If you're a skeptic or "want to beleive"

[kiauma]

CONGRATULATIONS!!

Yes JAW, YOU are the one millionth person who has wandered onto this forum confusing objective reality with belief and spirituality for parapsychology!  Therefore, YOU win the grand prize !! an all expense paid lifetime of confusion and bewilderment!

Keep up the good work, and you could win the bonus prizes of cynicism and apathy!  Just don't commit to anything, especially the validity of your own feelings and psyche, and you will do just fine.  []

[guest2000]

What you said was far more cynical, kiauma.

[kiauma]

cyn·i·cal    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (sn-kl)  adj.

1. Believing or showing the belief that people are motivated chiefly by base or selfish concerns; skeptical of the motives of others: a cynical dismissal of the politician's promise to reform the campaign finance system.
2. Selfishly or callously calculating: showed a cynical disregard for the safety of his troops in his efforts to advance his reputation.
3. Negative or pessimistic, as from world-weariness: a cynical view of the average voter's intelligence.
4. Expressing jaded or scornful skepticism or negativity: Cynical laughter.


What you say is true IF it came out of a negative or selfish motivation.  However, while I may be guilty of sarcasm, I assure you my farcical post came from an educated and familiar understanding both with the subject and the stage of enquiry that was the genesis of JAW's post.

But you, my friend, are free to ignore my explanation and remain so judgemental, if you wish.  []

[guest2000]

Whilst you may not have believed yourself to be acting cynically, you should be more aware of other persons feelings. Simply because you did not believe yourself to be speaking cynically, that does not mean other people will see this from your same perspective.

In short, words which are not carefully chosen hurt the most.

[kiauma]

Yes, I understand what you are saying.

Ah, very well, I apologise.

That said, perhaps you would be willing to see it from my perspective.  By your own logic, that would only be fair.

[guest2000]

It would, and I do see it from your perspective. However, without intending to sound too big-headed, I believe the reasoning I have put forth is more beneficial to both parties. Just registered because I didn't want JAW, who is trying to believe, to be put off.

Allright, that's enough from me, we're off-topic now.

Scientific research into Astral Projection is an interesting endeavour in my view, so if anyone else has some interesting articles relating to it, I'm sure Astral Pulse members would be interested to read it.

[kiauma]

No, we are not off-topic.  Yes, I suppose it is best that we undergo any discussion with reasonable care of the other's feelings, and I appreciate you reminding me of this, however the topic is 'If you're a skeptic or "want to believe"', and as such has everything to do with a person's perspective and motives, which is not only the subject of my original post (not JAW specifically, as you apparently believe) but also the method and perspective of scientific enquiry.

Scientific enquiry, as it is defined today, is inadaquate to the investigation of metaphysical issues - that is why it is (as it is currently understood) a dead end, and that is why I say our discussion is still very much on topic.

Thank you for listening.  []

[guest2000]

Relating "Discussion ethics/Manners" to the topic of "Scientific investigation into psychical matters" is quite a stretch, to say the least, in my view. But anyway.

quote:Scientific enquiry, as it is defined today, is inadaquate to the investigation of metaphysical issues - that is why it is (as it is currently understood) a dead end, and that is why I say our discussion is still very much on topic.

I would have to disagree. Parapsychology is already recognized as an official science and is slowly growing in popularity. Many prominent Astral projectors have worked with scientists to yield interesting results concerning the Out of Body Experience phenomena. Acupuncture is a medical science frequently used in the Orient that has been proven to work. This is a science based upon energy principals. For these few reasons, I believe science can do much for our investigations into our psychical energy bodies.

[kiauma]

Ah, I agree with everything you said!  Unfortunately, I think it is quite a stretch to call any of this mainstream science, and that is my point.  

A revolution in science is needed to really accept these studies as anything but esoteric, as well as advances in our understanding of metaphysics that will facilitate their study.

[guest2000]

quote:A revolution in science is needed to really accept these studies as anything but esoteric, as well as advances in our understanding of metaphysics that will facilitate their study.

Yes, I think this is true to an extent. The aim of my post though, was to indicate that science has to start somewhere, just as it had to start somewhere centuries ago in proving that the world was round and not flat. This is why I find the topic of science investigating psychical subjects to be interesting.

[kiauma]

Oh yes, true enough.   Science is the arbiter of the popular notion of reality, so is not to be excluded.

Personal investigations, especially in metaphysics, should also not be limited to what you are told you are going to find.

[JAW]

Crazy,
Kiuma I could barely understand what you were on about in reply to my first post. I was merely presenting research which reinforced my belief that OBEs, NDE's, etc were real, and hoped that the links pointed others in the same direction.
Not sure what you meant by me confusing this with parapsychology, I assume thats some "field" that encompases "some strange stuff", but to me, if "strange stuff happens", then other "strange stuff" is more likely to also exist. Yes I know, not very wordy but I bet you understood it

Cheers!

[JAW]

Kiuma,
On reading your last post, I agree you shouldnt restrict what you think you'll find, but Id say it might be easier for some people (myself included) who have been brought up in a non spiritual, non religious background to believe in this stuff more readily if presented in a more scientific way. 2 months ago I would have said "this is all crapola", until I saw a discovery channel special that was presented in a very scientific manner. That in turn led me here amongst other places. People on the other side of the coin are used to just "having faith".

I also think Robert Bruce is quite successful in getting through to people such as myself, because he tries hard not to use the classic arty farty terms that make people like me reel in terror He also never (or rarely) names "gods" as Jesus or Buddha, and lets the reader have his own beleifs which I reckon is awesome.

Cheers.

[kiauma]

In any case, I'm glad you have a sense of humor JAW, and didn't take any of it personal.  

At bottom, what I was protesting in general are the many misconceptions that go into the question "Is it real?".  

What I mean by this is that ordinarily people become conscious of spiritual phenomena, as differentiated from psychic phenomena, in much the same way you do, through hearsay and secondhand congecture.  Some experience it firsthand spontaneously, and I think the smallest group has traditionally been those who consciously cultivate the experience - but that is rapidly changing.

But for people as in your case though, when you finally hear about it in a format that you agree with, which agrees with everything else you take to be 'real' around you, you then think you should consider it - under the consideration that it is 'real' in the same way as your ordinary reality, the only difference being people are like ghosts and they fly...  or something.  This is a huge misconception, because it is not just a 'ghost copy' of the world except everything is made out of ectoplasm or something.  Seriously - this is what people often think when you question them in any depth of what they think the astral or the afterlife is like.  They really don't have a clue, so they relate it to the only world they know.  Can't blame them, really, but it is a mistake.

The only good thing about this is that it often leads people to open up to things, often leading on a journey they could have previously no conception of.

Want to know how to experience these things? I will tell you.   Relax.  Trust the universe.  Be happy.  Become light and bright as a silver feather, and then it will happen of it's own accord.

Then you will see, then you will make up your own mind. []

[JAW]

Howdy,
While I wouldn't call myself a skeptic, I haven't actually experienced an OBE yet, and Im thinking maybe my subconscious deep down doesn't beleive its possible. I followed a link from another post (now postS here by Sasser which has further reinforced my belief that it is possible so wanted to share it. If anyone else has anything they want to share, itd be good to build a bit of a database of links with the goal of either reinforcing current beliefs or giving skeptics something to chew on. Hopefully this hasn't been done before, Ive noticed some skeptic related posts but nothing that links to much further info

Tons of great articles and research on:
www.soultravel.nu

Military remote viewing interview:
http://www.soultravel.nu/artiklar/021115-skip_atwater/newdawn-ENG.asp

Original NDE post by Sasser:
http://www.soultravel.nu/2004/040315-NDE-state/

Anyone got anything else? I think my future OBE attempts might be different after having read these articles... Some of the "facts" and research are just impossible to ignore.

Cheers!