2 totally different types of OBE's and results

[Aprentice]

Hi tdd, I'm no expert on these things so I ca'nt really answer your questions on the differences very well, but I think it probabely has something to do with different projection methods leading to the projected double manifesting at a different density, and so naturally tuning in to a different 'layer' of the Astral.
I too have had many of the experiances you class as type 1, mainly when trying to project from lucid dreams. Iwas never sure if they were astral projection experiances or if I just 'dreampt' that I projected, because like you describe the inside of my room would look the same, but outside the window it would be a bright day or something, and then when I returnd to physical consiousness I would find it was night, which would cause me to doubt the experiance was really a projection.

[stephen~]

I'm a 'Type 2' person myself. The only difference for me is I cannot recall anything rushing towards me, although I am usually aware of things being there. Particulary I note the heaviness in the head. I project mostly in the daytime and I usually have this tell-tale sign of heavy head sensation, and it can happen multiple times even in 40 minute nap that I experience vibes, from which I may project once or twice or not at all if I am unlucky. Mostly I see well, but I guess that is not surprising during the day time.

I think the differences between types 1&2 is a consciousness issue. I think the first has no real 'start' in consciousness, a lucid dream usually starts non-lucid, so it is a gradual effect I think you are describing. Therefore I think you are more likely to dimiss it as a lucid dream (I agree with Frank's thoughts on this). Type 2, at least from my point of view, starts off conscious because I never lose it completely in the first place, so the continuity of self awareness makes it easier to be sure it is projection.

It seems logical to me that if an ordinary dream is us at our least controlled and least self-aware, a lucid one slightly more controlled and more aware, that there is some kind of correlation between consciousness and control, so it's no surprise that in type 2 you are 'environment accurate' and possibly able to see astral wildlife better as well. Just look at type one, little control, you drift into consciousness but there's no strong focus. Type 2 is a full tank of gas in a consciousness sense. Like there is more capacity to be aware of more 'stuff'.

[upstream]

Welcome in the forum! You did a great post. At least it is great for me because you are the very first person who has so accurately described my experiences. I hope soon we will learn new things from each other.

I think Type1 projections tend to start at the border of F21 & F22 (if you're familiar with terms of The Monroe Institue), while Type2 are real time zone projections started with more or lesser etheric prestates. By RTZ projections I mean an experience in which we have the chance for perceiving elements of the reality we share in waking life.

As for the question of what experiences are OBEs, I think it is just a matter of definition. Driven by some of them not only regular dreaming but even watching television should be OBE. Questions like this are not important as long as both of us know what we are talking about.

quote:Why the severe auditory, visual and physical sensations in Type2, yet total absence thereof in Type1?

In Type1 REM-system is triggered first by detaching a somatosensoric phantom in sleep paralysis, and then, by looking for visuals through the blackness. The outcome is a Wake Induced Lucid Dream that takes place in the "lower astral." Your sight is late because switching REM on takes some time to accomplish. On the other hand, REM-sleep is barely involved in the physiology of Type2 projections that are supposed to coincide with a deeper but mixed type of sleep. In this state role of the brain is more limited. Sight could be late in Type2 projections as well but this is, I suppose is the result of temporally displaced etheric substances that prevent the RTZ-body to move away and perceive by its own. I've found that in most cases 1-20 sec is required for saving back the plasma via the "silver cord" or set free the RTZ-body by a forced pull. The pull is often felt on the legs (which are missing) or in the solar pelxus regio as some pain.

quote:3) Why the drastic differences in
a) the environment outside my house (outside doors and windows) as well as more pronounced differences within the house (in Type1 there are often additional rooms that are not there in the waking world nor in type2)
b) Various weird looking .. very real appearing "entities" in my bedroom with Type2

3a) Your Type1 house is a mental representation based on your memories. By getting outside your subconscious got a more greater freedom to build your sensorium. The word you would see around your house is not real in the sense we accustomed to yet you are able to dock into other dreamers' dream.
Surprisingly I couldn't fly in this regio (I use imagined threads to drag myself and orders) but have observed a heavy traffic beneath the dream pictures.

quote:Oftentimes when I want to fly somewere iI feel someone carrying me there by holding me under my shoulders.

You didn't see the entity carring you because the condensation degree of your energy bodies was not properly aligned with each other. You and that beings was very close "dimensionally" but not occupy the same perceived spece. Those beings are supposed to perceive an another environment most likely the energetic underlying of our state. From their eyes we are blind.

More "dimensional distance" would diminish the sense of being touched by someone else and the guidance would reduce into a wind like force. You could observe this wind effect on yourself as well when you are abruptly taken inside a room or move outside too quickly through a window. By moving inside you would feel your perception become more keen and you'd got a more keen sense of body, somethin that missing from F21/F22 flights. As for moving outside, you could encounter a resistence and may get aware something on your back, most likely an entity you happened to attach with unawares.

3b) Some of your visitors in Type2 projections are most likely identical with those you didn't able to see in the Type1 environment. Now you could see them because you have a common reference point for setting your energy fields: your sleeping body or more exactly the etheric substance that surrounds it. You was consciously aware the onset of sleep paralysis so your focus is as close to the body as possible. Since some of those visitors seem to have some parasitic in their nature (and they are more common than we dare to believe) our defence would try to prevent waking up in those states and get awareness of those beings.

My questions:

You wrote about Type1 as

quote:I realize that iam lucid. And focus on seperating from my body. Feel a spinning and strong stretching sensation and find myself rolling out of my body onto the floor next to my bed.

What kind of streching is that? Is it an upward or is it beyond expression?

quote:Then walk around in my house which is similar to my house on the inside - yet has totaly different views on the outside. Usually fly out the window and start exploring the environment. Oftentimes when I want to fly somewere iI feel someone carrying me there by holding me under my shoulders.

Seems you could fly. How do you do that? Haven't you had difficulties with it?

quote:On one very itnteresting occasiosion I was able to get that rolling out of body sensation just by focusing on the blackness in front of my eyes as I was going to bed in the evening and suddenly the sensation of turning within my body appeared on its own and I slowly rotated out of my body.

It's indeed very interesting. Was you sleep deprived or did you some trick?

quote:In this state I ususally see only very foggy images or nothing at all until I just tell myself that I can see, or pull off my physical glasses

Did you say that you pulled off a dream glasses to improve your sight in dreaming?

[Aprentice]

The 'type 2 projections'as described above: i.e. from consious state, are what I am trying to achieve eventually, however I am let to manage this so ca'nt really comment on them yet.
With the many experiances I have had of 'projecting' from a lucid dream, I think what often happens is that we carrie on dreaming as well, i.e. whatever part of your mind controles and creates dream imagery carries on doing so. This can lead to us experiancing an obe 'mixed up' with a dream.
The way I normally project from a lucid dream is to will myself to 'wake up' in my body, and then project strait out of the body before I become fully consious in the physical. This seems to work well and I get all the classic projection phenomena such as vibrations as I'm leaving, but I'm never sure if I've really projected or if my minds just recreated the whole experiance from what I've read.

[tdd]

Aprentice: Thanks for feedback. Appreciated.

Stephen: That was what I used to think (that the lapse in conciousness eased me into Type1) - but then I had the experience were I had no lapse in conciousness whatsoever and then projected within probably 30-40 minutes with only Type1 sensations - and in this case I did not try initiating those sensations - I just started turning inside my body suddenly.

Upstream: Wow. Thats what I was looking for:) Lots of engaging interesting points. Thank you also for the warm welcome. Appreciated. Its awesome to see that there is a place like this with SOOO many people that are just as "weird" as you are:)) well some are weirder then others .. but all in a good way (masturbation thread reference:)

I also look forward learning lots onhere and being able to share whatever I can with others.

Now in response to your questions:


- I was not able to summarize this in as much detail until my several last experiences were I was able to actually compare the different nuances and be certain that Type1 is infact a ful blown OBE (that was just very important to me personally since all my childhood experiences were Type2)

quote:[I think Type1 projections tend to start at the border of F21 & F22 (if you're familiar with terms of The Monroe Institue), while Type2 are real time zone projections started with more or lesser etheric prestates. By RTZ projections I mean an experience in which we have the chance for perceiving elements of the reality we share in waking life.

Interesting thought.  (Yes I read all Monroe books and read a lot of the threads onhere about the different stages)
Yet why would both happen so quickly? And why do you think am I not able to induce Type2 myself (happens only when waking up and falling asleep multiple times in a row during a short time span) - yet was able to induce Type2 at will (even though I used to think that its only possible from within a Lucid Dream).

quote:As for the question of what experiences are OBEs, I think it is just a matter of definition. Driven by some of them not only regular dreaming but even watching television should be OBE. Questions like this are not important as long as both of us know what we are talking about.

For some reason the Type2 experiences do have a much "realer" feel to me then Type1 - and are much stronger in their effect on me then Type1. Yet possibly that is just a matter of my own vibrational frequency thus my ability to perceive something as more real then something else? Gee .. writing it out answers it often:)))

quote:In Type1 REM-system is triggered first by detaching a somatosensoric phantom in sleep paralysis, and then, by looking for visuals through the blackness. The outcome is a Wake Induced Lucid Dream that takes place in the "lower astral." Your sight is late because switching REM on takes some time to accomplish. On the other hand, REM-sleep is barely involved in the physiology of Type2 projections that are supposed to coincide with a deeper but mixed type of sleep. In this state role of the brain is more limited. Sight could be late in Type2 projections as well but this is, I suppose is the result of temporally displaced etheric substances that prevent the RTZ-body to move away and perceive by its own. I've found that in most cases 1-20 sec is required for saving back the plasma via the "silver cord" or set free the RTZ-body by a forced pull. The pull is often felt on the legs (which are missing) or in the solar pelxus regio as some pain.

Hmmm.. Makes sense.. would explain why there is much more illogical fears in type2 vs. type1 (ie. brains participation more limited).
Same visuals in Type1 leave me totally calm - while in Type2 they tend to freak me out (although that could also be due to the severe noise levels that I hear)

quote:Your Type1 house is a mental representation based on your memories. By getting outside your subconscious got a more greater freedom to build your sensorium. The word you would see around your house is not real in the sense we accustomed to yet you are able to dock into other dreamers' dream.

HA cool! makes perfect sense.. why go through all the trouble though:)
That would explain why I never see my body in Type1 yet always do in Type2

quote:Surprisingly I couldn't fly in this regio (I use imagined threads to drag myself and orders) but have observed a heavy traffic beneath the dream pictures.

Interesting. I had that problem only a few times.. then I just stretched.. ie. I would just stretch my hands out to the place I wanted to go (would see my hands stretching for miles) - and then would just let go with my feet.. and snap to the new location. Somehow thats how I interprted Monroes IDENT thingy... now prefer ti over flying (when I remember it:))

quote:You didn't see the entity carring you because the condensation degree of your energy bodies was not properly aligned with each other. You and that beings was very close "dimensionally" but not occupy the same perceived spece. Those beings are supposed to perceive an another environment most likely the energetic underlying of our state. From their eyes we are blind.

)) Just imagining them looking at us and going "dooh! open your "eyes" ")

quote:More "dimensional distance" would diminish the sense of being touched by someone else and the guidance would reduce into a wind like force. You could observe this wind effect on yourself as well when you are abruptly taken inside a room or move outside too quickly through a window. By moving inside you would feel your perception become more keen and you'd got a more keen sense of body, somethin that missing from F21/F22 flights. As for moving outside, you could encounter a resistence and may get aware something on your back, most likely an entity you happened to attach with unawares.

Entity attaching never happened - but the wind type force - yes that would happen a lot .. many times sensation would get to strong and I would snap back into my body.

quote:Some of your visitors in Type2 projections are most likely identical with those you didn't able to see in the Type1 environment. Now you could see them because you have a common reference point for setting your energy fields: your sleeping body or more exactly the etheric substance that surrounds it. You was consciously aware the onset of sleep paralysis so your focus is as close to the body as possible. Since some of those visitors seem to have some parasitic in their nature (and they are more common than we dare to believe) our defence would try to prevent waking up in those states and get awareness of those beings.

Hmm.. need to explore that more.. interesting concept.

quote:My questions:

quote:What kind of streching is that? Is it an upward or is it beyond expression?

Hmm. Usually I feel like being stretched into all directions at once .. (after I request to go OBE from my LD) - and only after the stretching sensatin do I feel rolling motion.. sometimes the rolling just keeps on going without getting me out of my body - then I just sit up and get out of bed and get out that way.

quote:Seems you could fly. How do you do that? Haven't you had difficulties with it?

Never had any difficulties in flying there. Would just jump out the window with hands stretched in front of me and fly. Those times I was not able to fly.. I just stretched (see above)

quote:It's indeed very interesting. Was you sleep deprived or did you some trick?

I was very surprised myself as well - I was totally alert.. not tired at all .. and totally concious of the whole experience (ie. I did not even loose track of my thoughts or images I focused on Like I usually do when I go to bed and am tired).
Trick? I dont know. I tried doing exactly as Monroe describes - but was not able to reach for any vibrations - nor was my body totally asleep yet - so I jsut started rope climbing - but the action of that seemed to slow to me and I tried something thats faster and gave me more sensations.. so I started imagining that I am swinging my legs loft to right very fast.. that helped me get into a very deep trance.. at which point I almost lost totally sense of my body. Yet I somehow was not able to separate.. the swaying seemed to "slow" to separate me.. so I just imagined flying.. and suddenly felt myself flying out of my body.. (just felt it .. did not actually happen) - yet that suddenly made me feel very clearly how my body started rotating slowly to the right.. ..
This happened last week and was the first time ever I was able to induce it from a totally awake state.

Did you say that you pulled off a dream glasses to improve your sight in dreaming?

Haha yes.. my "astral" body was wearing glasses.. I pulled them off and was able to see great after that.. still makes me laugh. Started happening only recently. Before that I woulsd always stumble through fog and keep on aasking for clarity and awareness.. which after a while usually did the trick. Here it happened right away as soon as I took them off.


Thanks again for the wonderful and detailed response. I appreciate it greatly!

Love and light,
TDD

[upstream]

Now I know we are weird in the same way and you know, that's a good feeling. Your post was very inspiring, welcome again

quote:(Yes I read all Monroe books and read a lot of the threads onhere about the different stages) Yet why would both happen so quickly?

Do you mean that F21/22 happen too soon when you attempt to induce an OBE or do you wonder why those projections wasn't preeded by many years of Type2 experience?

Just for mere curiosity, I have a question: why had you marked Type1 experiences with #1 when your earlier and more real experiences comes from T2?

quote:And why do you think am I not able to induce Type2 myself

To say the truth, I didn't think about whether you can or cannot induce Type2 OBEs at will. All I know that it is very hard for me. It seems you yearn for this ability and I perfectly understand your reasons. For me, it has something to do with control.

quote:(happens only when waking up and falling asleep multiple times in a row during a short time span) - yet was able to induce Type2 at will (even though I used to think that its only possible from within a Lucid Dream).

How do you induce it at will? I'm especially interested in your LD experiences with it.

quote:For some reason the Type2 experiences do have a much "realer" feel to me then Type1 - and are much stronger in their effect on me then Type1.

Perhaps T2 consciousness has more thing to do with our feer based animal self than T1 consciousness? Direct download and more sharper memories and things like that?

Seems like T1 consciousness is totally free from the fear of the dying organism. It's a clear and rational awareness spiced with some irrational insticts that work unnoticed in the background. They recalled after awakening only as weird visuals, like screens from nowhere. However, T1 consciousness could be more clear than those we accustomed to in our waking hours. At the same time, it has a "dreamy flick" that may do something with the impression about the eternal now.

quote:.. why go through all the trouble though:) That would explain why I never see my body in Type1 yet always do in Type2

I'm aware a border at the root of T1 where weird things could happen. You can come back to your dream bedrom after the visuals are stabilized, increase your awareness and observing around without thoughts. Now you are in a state where T1 and T2 environments are meet. By doing some visual excercise you could see a body sleeping in your bed. Now I know this body is not the physical. It's even could move. Many times I swa myself leving this body, so I think it's a visual interpretation of my etheric double.

It's worth to note, that directly projecting into T1 is a lot more easyer than inducing T2. You mentioned that you know about the possibiliy to induce T2 from "lucid dreams." I'm very interested in your experiences, please let continue in PM.

I think T1 (F21/F22) is simiar to LDs in the sense that they represent our most active brain states. I believe after reaching this state we we simply couldn't be more conscious by our brain. The brain capabilities for supporting cognition is reached its limit. We have to dissociate from the brain in order to project away from the here and now. This would results in the automatic and sychronous shut down of the cortex. This could be accomplished by two ways:

1. By means of a centipetal projection, zooming through a vortex that appear in the F21-superspace. I think this is the way of real astral projections, phasing from advanced lucid dreams. The shut down process should be done in a very brief time period or the brain remain in REM-sleep to decode informations that the projected double broadcast.

2. An another possibility is mimicing sleep and projecting from lucid dreams. Regarding my experiences with it T2 comes into view when I try to sleep in T1 with the intent to have a classic OBE. There is an another possibility by which we may could literally knock ourselfes out from this word. This is by inducing deep sleep within a lucid dream. Haven't tired yet but there is a guy from an another forum who claim he could induce NDEs by practicing trance induction in lucid dreams. He said, according to some yogis, there are 7 stages of sleep, and activity level of the brain in the deepest stege of NREM is only represent the 4th. He said also he has checked his EEG during the experience and it was flat. Very interesting. I need to make some experimentation with it and to bring home an EEG.

But is has been proved by my experiences that we could do some very interesting things in lucid dreams by practicing meditation, trance and phasing techniques. The only requirement is a very high awareness that comparable those we have in waking. The reason could be that our body is already throwed out from the equation and our highly activated brain let us controll a more greater parts of our being.

quote:

quote: upstream (me) said: Surprisingly I couldn't fly in this regio (I use imagined threads to drag myself and orders) but have observed a heavy traffic beneath the dream pictures.

TDD: Interesting. I had that problem only a few times.. then I just stretched.. ie. I would just stretch my hands out to the place I wanted to go (would see my hands stretching for miles) - and then would just let go with my feet.. and snap to the new location. Somehow thats how I interprted Monroes IDENT thingy... now prefer ti over flying (when I remember it:))

Nice trick, I want it for myself! Now I could understand why I'm unable to fly and why I should stretch. Thank you for this idea.

I've read only the first RAM book. What is this "IDENT thingy"?

You have said about guides:

quote:Just imagining them looking at us and going "dooh! open your "eyes"

Yeah it's very funny. I think they can see us in our transparent dream houses boxing and stretching our non existent limits, like walls, gravity. Not to mention the struggles with our upflaming sexuality that seems still based on our animal self.

quote:Entity attaching never happened

I'm sure it did happened. Something to try: got into T1 and go back to its T2 border, the place where you supposed to sleep. Now try to move through a narrow window. As you may have already found out, in the regio of stretching/zooming every windows is narrow. Anyways try to move through a windows with as quickly as you can and at the same time concentre on your back. If there is something installed into your energy field you would get aware of it at that position.

Three things could be happen: 1. nothing exceptional; 2. you would wake up because you torn the integrity of sensory experiences and you remain without visuals; 3. you would feel something on your back + an interesting thing I restrain in order to not influence your belief systems.

quote:many times sensation would get to strong and I would snap back into my body.

Do you mean loosing control about zooming or speed wind like flying, having splitted off from the narrow line of security we call horizon, falling rapidly into one direction without any intermission and at the same time spinning like a top that just escaped from hell? Yeah that's F21.

quote:Usually I feel like being stretched into all directions at once .. (after I request to go OBE from my LD) - and only after the stretching sensatin do I feel rolling motion.. sometimes the rolling just keeps on going without getting me out of my body - then I just sit up and get out of bed and get out that way.

Now thats very interesting. You feel some expansion before able to separate? I have never experienced anything like that yet it is totally consistent with the basic dynamics I suppose to work in the background. Or did you say that expansion is felt from LD (T1?) That makes sense.

quote:Never had any difficulties in flying there. Would just jump out the window with hands stretched in front of me and fly.

Flying at where? In regular lucid dreams I have no difficulties with flying albeit they have bacame rare. I have greatly enjoyed flying as I have been gone through many of its stages through the years. First I was practiced flying off and hovering, then was that swimming and flying like birds, the superman trick, rockets in my legs, directing my awareness, moving by "flight-threads", zooming, "sporas" and now...now if I would throw myself out a window I would most likely remain suspended in the air as a cloud.

Perhaps I should try that stretching. Could I imagine my hand in contact with something I didn't see at that moment? Or should I look on it? Perhaps your stretching is just my zooming? Hm... no. If I'd call it stretching than it couldn't be work like zooming, hehe.

quote:I did not even loose track of my thoughts or images I focused on Like I usually do when I go to bed and am tired.

I'm sceptical about it. When I have studied some similar situations I've found that I was likely already asleep and just thought that I'm awake. We may call it false awakaning or more precisely false insomnia, or hallucinating the inability of falling sleep - a more common condition that most people would assume.

quote:Haha yes.. my "astral" body was wearing glasses.. I pulled them off and was able to see great after that.. still makes me laugh.

I know this trick myself. I don't need to wear eye glasses but I used to enhance my sight by pulling off a couple of dark lensed one in a row. At first it was worked very well but later I found that the effect is temporal. I've also realised that while this trick is indeed not a miraculous one albeit work I need to use it as it is, a visual-symbolic equivalent of voicing my intent. Intent is what lead my brain into REM-sleep fom conscious NREM stages but it is accomplished through by a series of progressively more active states. However, at that time I was impatient and I did't know that this transition require a couple of minutes.

[tdd]

quote:Originally posted by upstream

Now I know we are weird in the same way and you know, that's a good feeling. Your post was very inspiring, welcome again

>> Thanks.

quote:(Yes I read all Monroe books and read a lot of the threads onhere about the different stages) Yet why would both happen so quickly?

Do you mean that F21/22 happen too soon when you attempt to induce an OBE or do you wonder why those projections wasn't preeded by many years of Type2 experience?

Just for mere curiosity, I have a question: why had you marked Type1 experiences with #1 when your earlier and more real experiences comes from T2?

>> F21/22 would happen very quickly in both types... I labeled them this way since Type1 I achieve more often due to the fact that Type2 I often pull back due to freakiness:)

quote:And why do you think am I not able to induce Type2 myself

To say the truth, I didn't think about whether you can or cannot induce Type2 OBEs at will. All I know that it is very hard for me. It seems you yearn for this ability and I perfectly understand your reasons. For me, it has something to do with control.

>> Yes.

quote:(happens only when waking up and falling asleep multiple times in a row during a short time span) - yet was able to induce Type2 at will (even though I used to think that its only possible from within a Lucid Dream).

How do you induce it at will? I'm especially interested in your LD experiences with it.

>>  Type2 I "sort of" can induce at will.. by either
a) continously being woken up everty 2 minutes at night ... (so not really self-induced or under my control).
b) by inducing Type1 first.. and then flying for a long time until I start feeling strong vibrations.. and then feeling myself leaving my body again (still experimenting with this one more)

quote:For some reason the Type2 experiences do have a much "realer" feel to me then Type1 - and are much stronger in their effect on me then Type1.

Perhaps T2 consciousness has more thing to do with our feer based animal self than T1 consciousness? Direct
Download and more sharper memories and things like that?

>> Very likely .. plus maybe the mind finds it more logical to find everything as in the waking world and thus perceives it as "more real" i think.

quote:Seems like T1 consciousness is totally free from the fear of the dying organism. It's a clear and rational awareness spiced with some irrational insticts that work unnoticed in the background. They recalled after awakening only as weird visuals, like screens from nowhere. However, T1 consciousness could be more clear than those we accustomed to in our waking hours. At the same time, it has a "dreamy flick" that may do something with the impression about the eternal now.

>>>Yes. Although still strange that its harder to hold on to things in T1.

quote:.. why go through all the trouble though:) That would explain why I never see my body in Type1 yet always do in Type2

I'm aware a border at the root of T1 where weird things could happen. You can come back to your dream bedrom after the visuals are stabilized, increase your awareness and observing around without thoughts. Now you are in a state where T1 and T2 environments are meet. By doing some visual excercise you could see a body sleeping in your bed. Now I know this body is not the physical. It's even could move. Many times I swa myself leving this body, so I think it's a visual interpretation of my etheric double.

It's worth to note, that directly projecting into T1 is a lot more easyer than inducing T2. You mentioned that you know about the possibiliy to induce T2 from "lucid dreams." I'm very interested in your experiences, please let continue in PM.

>>oki

I think T1 (F21/F22) is simiar to LDs in the sense that they represent our most active brain states. I believe after reaching this state we we simply couldn't be more conscious by our brain. The brain capabilities for supporting cognition is reached its limit. We have to dissociate from the brain in order to project away from the here and now. This would results in the automatic and sychronous shut down of the cortex. This could be accomplished by two ways:

1. By means of a centipetal projection, zooming through a vortex that appear in the F21-superspace. I think this is the way of real astral projections, phasing from advanced lucid dreams. The shut down process should be done in a very brief time period or the brain remain in REM-sleep to decode informations that the projected double broadcast.

>>> aha makes sense

2. An another possibility is mimicing sleep and projecting from lucid dreams. Regarding my experiences with it T2 comes into view when I try to sleep in T1 with the intent to have a classic OBE. There is an another possibility by which we may could literally knock ourselfes out from this word. This is by inducing deep sleep within a lucid dream. Haven't tired yet but there is a guy from an another forum who claim he could induce NDEs by practicing trance induction in lucid dreams. He said, according to some yogis, there are 7 stages of sleep, and activity level of the brain in the deepest stege of NREM is only represent the 4th. He said also he has checked his EEG during the experience and it was flat. Very interesting. I need to make some experimentation with it and to bring home an EEG.

>>> Not sure it would go flat at any state of sleep:) - but yes thats what I meant ealier.. experimenting with inducing a deep trance from T1 after getting into T1 from a LD

But is has been proved by my experiences that we could do some very interesting things in lucid dreams by practicing meditation, trance and phasing techniques. The only requirement is a very high awareness that comparable those we have in waking. The reason could be that our body is already throwed out from the equation and our highly activated brain let us controll a more greater parts of our being.

quote:

quote: upstream (me) said: Surprisingly I couldn't fly in this regio (I use imagined threads to drag myself and orders) but have observed a heavy traffic beneath the dream pictures.

TDD: Interesting. I had that problem only a few times.. then I just stretched.. ie. I would just stretch my hands out to the place I wanted to go (would see my hands stretching for miles) - and then would just let go with my feet.. and snap to the new location. Somehow thats how I interprted Monroes IDENT thingy... now prefer ti over flying (when I remember it:))

Nice trick, I want it for myself! Now I could understand why I'm unable to fly and why I should stretch. Thank you for this idea.

I've read only the first RAM book. What is this "IDENT thingy"?

>>> IDENT is how Monroe would mark things.. and then just "stretch" to them.

You have said about guides:

quote:Just imagining them looking at us and going "dooh! open your "eyes"

Yeah it's very funny. I think they can see us in our transparent dream houses boxing and stretching our non existent limits, like walls, gravity. Not to mention the struggles with our upflaming sexuality that seems still based on our animal self.

>>> hahaha yeah.

quote:Entity attaching never happened

I'm sure it did happened. Something to try: got into T1 and go back to its T2 border, the place where you supposed to sleep. Now try to move through a narrow window. As you may have already found out, in the regio of stretching/zooming every windows is narrow. Anyways try to move through a windows with as quickly as you can and at the same time concentre on your back. If there is something installed into your energy field you would get aware of it at that position.

Three things could be happen: 1. nothing exceptional; 2. you would wake up because you torn the integrity of sensory experiences and you remain without visuals; 3. you would feel something on your back + an interesting thing I restrain in order to not influence your belief systems.


>>> aha .. could be.. my "entitiy " experience has always been more direct ..

quote:many times sensation would get to strong and I would snap back into my body.

Do you mean loosing control about zooming or speed wind like flying, having splitted off from the narrow line of security we call horizon, falling rapidly into one direction without any intermission and at the same time spinning like a top that just escaped from hell? Yeah that's F21.

>>> good to know thanks!

quote:Usually I feel like being stretched into all directions at once .. (after I request to go OBE from my LD) - and only after the stretching sensatin do I feel rolling motion.. sometimes the rolling just keeps on going without getting me out of my body - then I just sit up and get out of bed and get out that way.

Now thats very interesting. You feel some expansion before able to separate? I have never experienced anything like that yet it is totally consistent with the basic dynamics I suppose to work in the background. Or did you say that expansion is felt from LD (T1?) That makes sense.

>>> I feel the expansion in Type1 OBE - before separating.

quote:Never had any difficulties in flying there. Would just jump out the window with hands stretched in front of me and fly.

Flying at where? In regular lucid dreams I have no difficulties with flying albeit they have bacame rare. I have greatly enjoyed flying as I have been gone through many of its stages through the years. First I was practiced flying off and hovering, then was that swimming and flying like birds, the superman trick, rockets in my legs, directing my awareness, moving by "flight-threads", zooming, "sporas" and now...now if I would throw myself out a window I would most likely remain suspended in the air as a cloud.

Perhaps I should try that stretching. Could I imagine my hand in contact with something I didn't see at that moment? Or should I look on it? Perhaps your stretching is just my zooming? Hm... no. If I'd call it stretching than it couldn't be work like zooming, hehe.

>> I experience it as my hands feeling a stretching sensation.. and then me seeing s9omething semitransparent flying out of my hands.. and going really far.. then I just follow that and it snaps me to a new location like a rubber band:)

quote:I did not even loose track of my thoughts or images I focused on Like I usually do when I go to bed and am tired.

I'm sceptical about it. When I have studied some similar situations I've found that I was likely already asleep and just thought that I'm awake. We may call it false awakaning or more precisely false insomnia, or hallucinating the inability of falling sleep - a more common condition that most people would assume.

>>> I had those as well.. and this time it felt totally different.. plus everything took place from being not tired at all.. and getting into this within probably 20-30 minutes.. I am skeptical as well.. but this felt like nothing before.. ie. no dream imagery.. no feeling of being pulled into imagery etc.. just totally blank mind.. then this turning sensation.

quote:Haha yes.. my "astral" body was wearing glasses.. I pulled them off and was able to see great after that.. still makes me laugh.

I know this trick myself. I don't need to wear eye glasses but I used to enhance my sight by pulling off a couple of dark lensed one in a row. At first it was worked very well but later I found that the effect is temporal. I've also realised that while this trick is indeed not a miraculous one albeit work I need to use it as it is, a visual-symbolic equivalent of voicing my intent. Intent is what lead my brain into REM-sleep fom conscious NREM stages but it is accomplished through by a series of progressively more active states. However, at that time I was impatient and I did't know that this transition require a couple of minutes.

thanks for the great response.

[dru2]

I think Type 2 OBE's occur when lying flat on your back during sleep (at any time) and it helps to be exhausted, so it can often occur during naps.

Can anyone else verify?  I know through some experiences, I can go through sleep paralysis within seconds of closing my eyes in some cases.

[stephen~]

You don't have to be flat on your back, but it is probably most likely more successfull because you are flat on your back most often, I would think. But position doesn't seem to be all that vital as long as you are not in too uncomfortable a position. I napped in the bath yesterday evening and projected downwards at a 45 dregree angle into my kitchen. At the time I was sitting in a more or less racing driver position. I have the same types of projection sitting upright in an armchair, but I tend to lay on the sofa if I am going to nap, so statistically flat on my back appears better than it is.

Exaustion does seem to help, I find, especially mental exaustion.

I don't think too often about paralysis, but projection can happen within what seems seconds of napping (rarely a long time into it), so I must be in paralysis very quickly too.

[tdd]

quote:Originally posted by dru2

I think Type 2 OBE's occur when lying flat on your back during sleep (at any time) and it helps to be exhausted, so it can often occur during naps.

Can anyone else verify?  I know through some experiences, I can go through sleep paralysis within seconds of closing my eyes in some cases.

Thats pretty much the case yes. Waking yourself up in the middle of the night 20 times in 1 hour does the trick as well - but is pretty much also the same "exausted type feeling". Also happened when I was not sleeping for 28 hours and then laid down.

Yup pretty much you then get into sleep paralysis and vibrations within a few seconds:)

[Krevency]

I'm an OBE virgin, and haven't actually been out.  After I'm comfortable with my energy body development and such I'm going to go ahead and try the methods I've read about in books.

But I've almost been out, actually getting strong vibrations that woke me up from a lucid dream where I'd just passed through a dream-wall to dream-outside (symbolism).  It seems like an easy avenue to OBE, but does EVERYONE who get's OBE from lucid dreams get this very distorted type?  Heh, I might as well keep lucid dreaming!

I'm sorry if it already answered that in one of the posts.  I don't really have the stamina to keep up with that amount of text.

[dru2]

Message Preview
I'm only starting to understand the processes to exiting. Most of the time i would feel myself sinking into the bed but i guess i get too excited and wake up consciously. Other times i would see dark figures in my room, or coloured symbols. I haven't exited to say the least yet.

Also, has anyone felt a tingley sensation around your "third eye" (in between your eyebrows) before exiting?

[Krevency]

Dru2.  You mentioned seeing symbols.  Are you able to remember any of them?  I saw this one (a link)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/SackOfMeat/symbol2.jpg

[tdd]

Hi Everyone.

I have had quite a few OBE experiences over the years (starting in my choldhood) that I realized fell basically into 2 very different categories. I would appreciate some feedback in regards to the differences and the reasons for those differences from people more experieced with the different states.

Type1
- Usually happens from within a lucid dream. Or upon meditating with an exit technique nad then just rolling over to sleep.
I realize that iam lucid. And focus on seperating from my body. Feel a spinning and strong stretching sensation and find myself rolling out of my body onto the floor next to my bed. Then walk around in my house which is similar to my house on the inside - yet has totaly different views on the outside. Usually fly out the window and start exploring the environment. Oftentimes when I want to fly somewere iI feel someone carrying me there by holding me under my shoulders. When I get pulled back into my body there are no entry sensations whatsoever - I just open my eyes and get up to write down what I experienced. On one very itnteresting occasiosion I was able to get that rolling out of body sensation just by focusing on the blackness in front of my eyes as I was going to bed in the evening and suddenly the sensation of turning within my body appeared on its own and I slowly rotated out of my body.

In this state I ususally see only very foggy images or nothing at all until I just tell myself that I can see, or pull off my physical glasses, or ask for clarity and awareness. A few times I opened my eyes and was able to see a lot better - yet usually I did not want to open my eyes since I was worried my physical eyes would open.

Interesting observations to this type include that on several occasions I was not able to obtain any vision by asking for clarity etc - and then just forced my eyes open to see better - which immediately brought me back to my body which I found was paralyzed - very surprised -  I tested if I am in my astral body or not by waving my hands in front of my eyes - I would feel the weaving but would not see my hands - I then tried putting my hand through the floor - and it went through the floor effortlessly - I then tried leaving my body - but felt completely glued to it and was only able to lift my head out a few inches.. then eventyally the paralysis faded away and I was able to move my physical body.

Type2
- Usually happens when I wake up multiple times at night in a short period of time, and feel a big heaviness in my head.
If I roll over to my side with that heavy feeling - I immediately feel a tremendous falling sensation, start hearing a very loud wind type noise in my ears - and after a few seconds start hearing electric static type noise and then loud voices and noises.. aftera little while I see through my closed eyelids an identical copy of my room and start also ocasionally seeing some semi transparent forms rushing towards me (most of the time all those sensations combined overwhelm me and I force myself with great effort to pull out of this - yet several times I was able to get then out of my body into an environment that resembled the "real world" much more then the Type1 experiences. I also never see any blackness - but immediately see the environment that I am in very acurately - including the outside environment that is always different in Type1


The questions that I have are:

1) What do you guys think are the primary differences between type1 and type2?
I used to write Type1 off as very vivid lucid dreams and thought only Type2 to be OBE's - yet after I was able to spin out of my body without any lapse in my awareness by just focusing on the black space as well as seing my room with my physical eyes but moving my astral hand through the floor - I do believe that those are OBE's - I read in one of Franks posts an interesting note in tregards to all LD's being OBE's and that it is just a matter of awareness

2) Why the severe auditory, visual and physical sensations in Type2, yet total absence thereof in Type1?

3) Why the drastic differences in
a) the environment outside my house (outside doors and windows) as well as more pronounced differences within the house (in Type1 there are often additional rooms that are not there in the waking world nor in type2)
b) Various weird looking .. very real appearing "entities" in my bedroom with Type2

Appreciate any feedback and advice.

Love and light,
TDD

[vt_id]

to tdd
Being a newbie in this forum, I'll dare to present my IMHOs.

For me RTZ OBEs VERY are different from lucid dreams, and so rare.
In about 2 years of practice only few experiences would qualify.
About a couple of them are special.

The intensity, the reality and sharpness and of image are unbelievable. The body is semi-absent, not textured, and not clothed of course. I do not WALK, but will myself to move, like a puff of smoke I am twisted and carried by unseen wind-vortex in my real room.

The hands are transparent like glass or better to say like gas with optical properties a bit different from that of air. Once a hand have been carried by the flow and I saw it moving across the ceiling almost unnoticeable, scintillating being seen and not, giving feeling of gentle stroboscope effect. And of course, no objects could be touched/affected.

Now back to interpretations.
my IMHOs are just models, subjective opinions, random points of view  in the game of a chance.
They are based on Castaneda-type interpretations and my very limited experiences.
1) What are the primary differences ?

imho: First type is a dream about leaving your body.
Second one may be real OBE.

2) Why the severe auditory, visual and physical sensations in Type2, yet total absence thereof in Type1?

imho: In the first type all you have is hallucinations. No reason to interpret unusual signals as they are absent.
In the second type your assemblage point is moving. You are assembling something real. Being unable to interpret strong and unusual signals you perceive loud noise.

3) Why the drastic differences in the environment ?
imho: There is no reason for hallucinations to be precise. In the second type you perceive this world or "it's copy", with much less hallucinations. The entities MAY be real.

I t does not matter how we explain the difference, it is important, that the difference IS there. 
peace.

p.s.
as far as I know, science believes that REM dreams, lucid dreams {and then OBE} have different neuro-chemical underpinning.