Kerry Won, says investigative journalist

[Kodemaster]

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won_.php

[clandestino]

controversial !!!

[SpectralDragon]

I have always known the ballots were being manipulated by Bush, it's stated as fact by several good and considered worthy sources.

[Nay]

Oh brother..

For someone whom everyone hates and thinks is a moron, he sure is incredible!  He can manipulate ballots..yeah, right..

He won fair and square, the people of America spoke.  Why not stop with the conspiracy theories and start standing behind the President.   We are the UNITED States aren't we?  Lets start acting like it.

[mactombs]

Look, Nay, there's never too many conspiracies.

I'm surprised this isn't a post about an investigative journalist saying the polls were manipulated by aliens. It would be about as credible, actually, considering how sloppy that "investigative" journalist is. (If you think about the term, pretty much anyone can call themselves an investigative journalist).

it's stated as fact by several good and considered worthy sources.

Sources state everything as fact. This brings up the issue of critical thinking skills. For instance, the above argument is assuming that authority said it, so it must be true (unless the authority is saying something disagreeable, then for some reason it no longer does).

I'm sure you can find a good source for listing logical fallacies. Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit, for instance.

I'm not trying to be specifically antagonistic, I just think it would be nice to see more exercises in critical thinking.

[SpectralDragon]

Look, Nay, there's never too many conspiracies.

I'm surprised this isn't a post about an investigative journalist saying the polls were manipulated by aliens. It would be about as credible, actually, considering how sloppy that "investigative" journalist is. (If you think about the term, pretty much anyone can call themselves an investigative journalist).

it's stated as fact by several good and considered worthy sources.

Sources state everything as fact. This brings up the issue of critical thinking skills. For instance, the above argument is assuming that authority said it, so it must be true (unless the authority is saying something disagreeable, then for some reason it no longer does).

I'm sure you can find a good source for listing logical fallacies. Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit, for instance.

I'm not trying to be specifically antagonistic, I just think it would be nice to see more exercises in critical thinking.

Correct, but how about it DIRECTLY from the people who count the ballots hmm?

[no_leaf_clover]

For someone whom everyone hates and thinks is a moron, he sure is incredible! He can manipulate ballots..yeah, right..

He won fair and square, the people of America spoke. Why not stop with the conspiracy theories and start standing behind the President. We are the UNITED States aren't we? Lets start acting like it.

Bush himself is not the most corrupt and evil part of our government. His administration, for one thing, is also very corrupt and probably has more to do with his decisions than he himself does. As we all think, he isn't exactly the most intelligent person in the world.    I'm sure there are also plenty of elite people working behind the scenes or from lesser known parts of the government that are also influential.

There's nothing wrong with the information on that site. The most you can do is just claim that they're outright lying, but then you wouldn't really have any evidence of that, only some reluctance to consider it, I guess. If there's anyone here from Ohio that paid attention and can tell us first hand about the Male/Female polls showing, combined, that Kerry won, maybe they can post. There are probably articles on other sites, as well, as I'm sure they weren't the only ones to pick up on this.

What do you know, there are more sources!

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=74090
http://www.crisispapers.org/topics/election-fraud.htm
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/archive/scoop/stories/1a/90/200411031350.e04c24cc.html

Nay, will you not even consider the fact that maybe, just maybe, something totally unconstitutional has occured during this election? Especially after what happened last election, you seem oddly confident that our government could never do anything corrupt, or at least not Mr. Bush. I haven't heard any real reasoning though. Just saying this is some conspiracy and ignoring it is ignorant in my opinion. It may very well be a conspiracy, but probably not on the part of the media, and I think it's at least worth looking into with so much at stake. Corruptness in government is by no means any new concept, even in America. Some people are too trusting in those that rule us.[/i]

[Nay]

Well, I guess I'm ignorant then, thanks for pointing that out.

You guys just keep looking for conspiracy and I'll just enjoy the fact that Bush is here for another 4yrs.  

Nay

[Fyrenze]

Nay, really, how could you be so ignorant.

(Just so it's clear, I AM being facetious.)

I hate Bush, but he did win. Maybe try and do something either to get the Democrats to improve their campaigning, because they're really bad at it, or to improve the system, because it's outdated, or just to get people to actually really partake in the system.

I'm not saying it's not possible that the election was predetermined. But all in all it doesn't matter. Be it Bush or Kerry in office the system works more or less the same and the only people who can do anything to change it are too busy not having an opinion or just complaining and not taking action.

Another thing, don't get me wrong. I am, still, for some reason, proud to be an American. I don't like the way things work today but it'd be silly to think that things have ever been ideal. All I can do is keep having an opinion, yes, but also doing my best to make sure to express it and make my voice heard.

If there's one thing I think I know, ANY society doesn't much like people who have their own opinions. But I refuse to complain or just be complacent. Or to complain AND be complacent.

My Humble Opinion,

Mark

[SpectralDragon]

Oh brother..

For someone whom everyone hates and thinks is a moron, he sure is incredible!  He can manipulate ballots..yeah, right..

He won fair and square, the people of America spoke.  Why not stop with the conspiracy theories and start standing behind the President.   We are the UNITED States aren't we?  Lets start acting like it.

Technically speaking, this is not true. You are voting for the states representitive, who votes for you. Then the representative can change his mind at the last second and vote for bush, even though you didn't want him to.

Hmm, we are in the united states, act like it hmm? maybe you should read this:
@#!$ the south This is more so a joke, but this is how your average american acts

[TheDarkApprentice]

I do agree that it was possible for the election to have been fixed, but even if there was significant evidence, i dont think that the media would cover it.

But even with Kerry elected, it wouldnt matter. We are going down hill as a country and going into Iraq was a big part of it.

If someone good give me some good facts or evidence that we aren't going downhill as a nation, please shoot. Even if you voted for Bush, You have to admit that this is not a democracy and the goverment is trying to take some control. At least in a stand point of the two party system.

My fity cents

[mactombs]

Correct, but how about it DIRECTLY from the people who count the ballots hmm?

How directly? From a guy who knows a guy who posted on a website? Just who does count the ballots? There's got to be a lot of them. I'll bet you that if we got all the people who counted all the ballots in Ohio, this conspiracy theory would start changing again.

If someone good give me some good facts or evidence that we aren't going downhill as a nation

You made the claim, the burden of proof is yours. What you're asking is like saying, "Someone prove to me that men aren't descended from slugs."

As for logical fallacies I was talking about earlier, here's a site with an index: http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm

And one with examples:

http://sun-design.com/talitha/relevance.html

I think if you went through this thread, you'd find at least a dozen different fallacies (Anonymous Authority, Hasty Generalization apply to "Correct, but how about it DIRECTLY from the people who count the ballots hmm?" alone).

Of course, even Nay is guilty (but I am, of course, utterly impervious to any possible error) ... Non Sequitur fallacy example being "If these politicians were patriotic, they would not question the President."

Also, I think if we're talking about evidence it would be nice to submit more reliable sources of information. Not editorial pieces or personal webpages.

[Nay]

Hmm, we are in the united states, act like it hmm? maybe you should read this:
@#!$ the south This is more so a joke, but this is how your average american acts

I didn't realize that was a link until I was responding..lol

And I didn't finish reading it because anyone that say "F-this, F-that" every other word, is just one ticked off dude, and a bit immature in my opinion.  You can lump yourself up with that "average" american, but I'm running in the other direction.    

I don't know, it seems these days younger folk have no pride for the country they live in.  I suppose I could blame the propaganda that is spewed constantly.  

Can no one see how great it is to live in the USA?  look at the opportunities we have.  Look at the freedom.  I think too many people take for granted what we have and have totally forgot what our ancesters did to make it just that way.

I hear people complaining about having no jobs..etc.  Yet, there they are typing away on the internet.   How is it they can have no job yet be able to afford paying for internet access??  Is it because they live in the USA and don't have it near as bad as they say?  Hmmmm.. I find that very interesting.

Nay

[SpectralDragon]

Correct, but how about it DIRECTLY from the people who count the ballots hmm?

How directly? From a guy who knows a guy who posted on a website? Just who does count the ballots? There's got to be a lot of them. I'll bet you that if we got all the people who counted all the ballots in Ohio, this conspiracy theory would start changing again.

If someone good give me some good facts or evidence that we aren't going downhill as a nation

You made the claim, the burden of proof is yours. What you're asking is like saying, "Someone prove to me that men aren't descended from slugs."

As for logical fallacies I was talking about earlier, here's a site with an index: http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm

And one with examples:

http://sun-design.com/talitha/relevance.html

I think if you went through this thread, you'd find at least a dozen different fallacies (Anonymous Authority, Hasty Generalization apply to "Correct, but how about it DIRECTLY from the people who count the ballots hmm?" alone).

Of course, even Nay is guilty (but I am, of course, utterly impervious to any possible error) ... Non Sequitur fallacy example being "If these politicians were patriotic, they would not question the President."

Also, I think if we're talking about evidence it would be nice to submit more reliable sources of information. Not editorial pieces or personal webpages.

It's not really important mac, after all we are just letting off steam.

Nay, as I already said, I hated both of them, so I would be complaining either way. People are getting a little too heated in this thread here.

BTW: that link was made as a joke, and yes, 90% of the people in the US act like that. Take it from a guy who deals with hundreds of people a day, I used to work at a grocery store, gas station, and now a restruant.

[Nay]

I don't think this thread is getting heated at all...that is your perception.

BTW: that link was made as a joke, and yes, 90% of the people in the US act like that. Take it from a guy who deals with hundreds of people a day, I used to work at a grocery store, gas station, and now a restruant.

You can't base that on just the people you meet..lol  It could be you live where 90% of the people act that way.   But the whole of the US of A does not shop or eat at the resturant you work at..

Nay

EDIT:  I thought since you felt the thread was getting heated, I'd give my favorite little link to ya'll..  I think I love him..LOL  All is right with the world when he is dancing around..

http://www.joeboxer.com/adcampaign_vaughn.html

[no_leaf_clover]

Can no one see how great it is to live in the USA? look at the opportunities we have. Look at the freedom. I think too many people take for granted what we have and have totally forgot what our ancesters did to make it just that way.

Same here, except for the 'how great we are' part. We are no longer the most free country in the world as some Europeans here might let us in on, and some of Bush's policies are pushing us back the other way (anti-gay policies, sexist policies, etc.).

If you look at the Constitution, which maybe I should mention our more educated ancestors wrote, we were designed to be a very liberal nation. The federal government is not supposed to have any rights not specifically mentioned, and this is for a reason. The 10th amendment reads, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people", yet how many instances of this being thrown out the window can we think of?

Let's see what I can think of off the top of my head..

James Madison: "

The Constitution expressly and exclusively vests in the Legislature the power of declaring a state of war [and] the power of raising armies. A delegation of such powers [to the President] would have struck, not only at the fabric of our Constitution, but at the foundation of all well organized and well checked governments. The separation of the power of declaring war from that of conducting it, is wisely contrived to exclude the danger of its being declared for the sake of its being conducted.

"

Wow! Ring a bell, anyone? Madison foresaw the things us that the more caring of us protest now! "The separation of the power of declaring war from that of conducting it, is wisely contrived to exclude the danger of its being declared for the sake of its being conducted." Wow. Think of all the opportunities for corruption you can get from giving the Executive Branch both the power to conduct war AND to declare it!! Good thing our forefathers saw this potential problem and prevented it from ever causing harm to our government's balance of power!

Drafts are also unconstitutional, and I have a feeling our forefathers would have been EXTREMELY opposed to that. No man should be forced into a situation that risks his life, especially by the government. Whatever happened to the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? The draft alone limited if not destroyed all three of those rights at one instance. There is neither any part of liberty in being forced into the military (Though maybe a part of fascism. Again, this is Nixon's era, decades ago. It was, as we would be good to remember, times of greater protests than we have seen yet in recent years. Peaceful protests were broken up with brutal force, resulting in deaths, etc. Those who grew up around this era probably remember these sorts of things clearly, or should anyway.), or any pursuit of happiness in it. Those who would derive happiness from being in the military would certainly join regardless of a draft, and then we wouldn't have needed a draft in the first place, would we? I think this was much more of a corruption of freedom than most of us realize, and should never be brought back to any civilized nation. Yet there is a bill for it sitting in Congress, with Bush in office for his last four years, a Republican majority in Congress, and a potentially vastly different Judicial Branch. Democrats introduced the bill, so it seems that we're either unfortunate enough to have potentially bipartisan enthusiasm for the bill, or else we're fortunate enough to have had it introduced as Democratic propaganda to get more of us to oppose the Iraq war and thereby Bush. Either scenario is bad obviously, but that's our government today, and we should all have enthusiasm for it! YEAH! GO USA! WE ROCK! HEIL... ER... FOUR MORE YEARS!

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

In regards to freedom of the media, here are some links to interesting articles:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1324417,00.html - US seizes servers from media sites.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/steinreich8.html - Fox News lies in support of war in Iraq.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/09/politics/campaign/09book.html - Bush discourages NBC from airing interviews with the author of a book about the Bush family

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6327.htm - Foreign journalists from friendly countries deported.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

We all know which toilet this went down. Patriot Act? Maybe if the patriot in question is fascist, then this is sure his or her legislature.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Even though military hearings are not required to be held "on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury", there are no limitations on the 8th Amendment: that there shall be no cruel and unusual punishment. The right to torture war criminals is simply not granted to the federal government. Who honestly thinks our forefathers would support torture anyway?

Nonetheless, the Bush Administration seems awfully involved in the issue:

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=80437
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/89092/1/.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/26/politics/26detain.html?ex=1256443200&en=33ecd29c9477009e&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.contractors04may04,0,6476999.story
http://mathaba.net/x.htm?http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=48719
http://207.44.245.159/article7058.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6185393/site/newsweek/
http://www.prisonplanet.com/061003camps.html

And check this out - just to show how hypocritical our administration is!

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3978.htm



Of potential further defacings of our Constitution:

Gay rights.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

I think it's pretty clear that homosexuality is NOT unconstitutional in the least. We also have a freedom of religion. Marriage is a Christian tradition, and Christians are upset because Christianity denounces homosexuality. This seems to be the big issue. That and a lot of descriminatory citizens who just don't like gay people either way, or don't like homosexual relationships because it makes them feel "icky", as Lewis Black puts it. I don't see why, since Christianity is a religion and we have a total and unprohibited freedom of religion here, homosexuals can't marry. Being denounced by Christianity doesn't matter because there is a separation of church and state, and it never has been that you must follow a religion exactly or not follow it all, as any religious American will show, having not been arrested though we all invariably sin by Christian standards. Therefore gays can constitutionally marry, even though it is a contradictory situation where gays are denounced by the religion that the tradition belongs to. It really isn't even a government matter. States can determine whether or not they will allow it, which is an issue of morality and allowing others free will, but to make a federal law against it is infringent upon personal rights and unconstitutional. They could, of course, pass an amendment to ban it, but this of course is not in the path of a truly free society, which judges its freedom by how much the individual can do as long as they don't harm others, rather than what the majority of the masses like or don't like. It doesn't really go to further our almighty, supreme greatness as a nation.

Gun rights. Also ensured in the Bill of Rights, now being questioned by our less-than-idealist government. I'm sure some Democrats have good intentions behind this notion, but when our rights to weapons are taken away, what would we have to defend ourselves against a corrupted government? This is the whole reason this is an amendment. We don't have rights to weapons so we can be sure to have the right to hunt in our spare time, or to go target practicing. We have the right because we must be able to sufficiently defend ourselves.

In addition I'd like to repost this link, from where I was direct to a lot of the information available:

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

I don't know, it seems these days younger folk have no pride for the country they live in. I suppose I could blame the propaganda that is spewed constantly.

Oh yeah, don't believe all these CRAZY "conspiracy" theories, of unconstitutional actions taken out by our government (how insanely unthinkable! but... they're facts, I'm sorry to say), but blame the propoganda for brainwashing all us kids to hate the government! How are things really working? I'm interested because in light of all that I've seen, things aren't really going so well once you go beneath the surface denial of things still being absolutely super just because you still have money, or just because your personal daily routine hasn't changed much yet. Maybe things are still fine for you, but for all the citizens who are losing loved ones in the war, or are victims of unreasonable searches and arrests, or being denied their rights to civil unions and marriage, or being brutally tortured as you read this in US detainee camps, or, and certainly not least of all!, all those that have lost their lives from being unwillingly drafted into Vietnam, or killed in the Waco Massacre, or Ruby Ridge, or the 9/11 attacks, etc. Things may still seem great for you, but it's the abuse others are suffering that worries me. It's only a matter of time, or maybe luck, before those that still think things are great start humming a different tune, or else no longer humming at all. Until then maybe it's all just the same to you? I really don't know. History shows the majority of people don't really care either way during crucial revolutionary times anyway.

[Fyrenze]

haha I've been doing the heil bush so much in the past few years.

A professor of mine said it well:

"The scariest thing to me is I think I now understand what it was like to be German under Hitler. It doesn't seem to matter how much we disagree with what's being done. Are we powerless?"

We shall see...

[SpectralDragon]

I don't think this thread is getting heated at all...that is your perception.

BTW: that link was made as a joke, and yes, 90% of the people in the US act like that. Take it from a guy who deals with hundreds of people a day, I used to work at a grocery store, gas station, and now a restruant.

You can't base that on just the people you meet..lol  It could be you live where 90% of the people act that way.   But the whole of the US of A does not shop or eat at the resturant you work at..

Nay

EDIT:  I thought since you felt the thread was getting heated, I'd give my favorite little link to ya'll..  I think I love him..LOL  All is right with the world when he is dancing around..

http://www.joeboxer.com/adcampaign_vaughn.html

I've been around. I have lived in CA, AK, and now in MI.

yes, not everyone acts that way, but a big number of them do...

BTW, speaking as a guy, that link is evil LOL

[mactombs]

Civilizations have a life-span, too.

I figure any civilization will crash and burn eventually. I don't think Bush deserves to be the icon for the Fall of the Holy American Empire, though (even if that fall is during his presidency, which I doubt). Americans will have to take credit for that.

If I were to write a fiction about America's future, I would be less hackneyed than Titor and all the other Civil War/Armeggeddon types. North America will first become increasingly influenced by Latin culture, till everyone is bilingual like in some of those crazy Canadian cities (isn't this more realistic than Civil War?)

At some point limits on family size will happen (people will declare Armeggeddon swift approaching).

Then television will become less censored, German-like in this regard (at which point people will really shout about Armeggeddon being at the doorstep).

Lastly, in the most participated election in American history, Americans will vote in electric poll-at-home stations 100% fraud and error proof (but unfortunately, due to unprecedented turnout, have major problems with leaking megawatts of energy into voters' fingers).

This last event will cause Greatgrandmother Nay to utter her last breath, "I see clearly at last! I blame this all on Bush!"

[Nay]

BTW, speaking as a guy, that link is evil LOL

LOL, my job is done then.  

This last event will cause Greatgrandmother Nay to utter her last breath, "I see clearly at last! I blame this all on Bush!"

I promise to let you know if I do that, now stop talking about my last breath!  

Nay

[WalkerInTheWoods]

url=http://www.fuckthesouth.com/] @#!$ the south[/url] This is more so a joke, but this is how your average american acts

HAHA That link was so funny. Thanks for sharing.

As far as Kerry goes he is still in the Senate, and will be atleast until 2008, so he is still in a powerful position. The President is not really all that powerful, and never was meant to be. Congress is the the body that makes and votes on the laws, and can even override a Presidential veto with enough votes. Now if Congress gives the President anything he wants, and vice versa that is a different story, and a broken system. How many people actually pay any attention to House and Senate elections? Or for that matter even vote in them?

[Fyrenze]

Right. The president can't, for example, declare war on Iraq without Congress' approval, right?

Oh. Wait.

There's some guy, I can't think of his name right now, who is setting precedents for breaking these, uh, guidelines.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Congress did give Bush authority to go to war with Iraq. Congress is the only branch that is actually allowed to declare war, but as of late they have been copping out of that and been giving the authority to the President to do so. But they still voted to do so. Though I honestly believe that if they had not Bush would have tried to do it away (actually I think he did try didn't he?) and I am sure that would have caused a major mess all around. And I think I will leave it as this so as not to take this way off topic.

[Fyrenze]

I suppose I didn't follow it all that closely because I was just not happy that we were there at all. What I recall is he used the right of the president to make an executive decision permitting emergency military action. However, there is a limit to the number of days that action, unapproved by Congress, can continue. I'm pretty positive that he didn't get the approval of Congress in time, but I don't know what happened after that.

I might add that I thought before the Bush precedent that executive order was only used to save American lives that would be lost in the time it took for Congress to make a decision.

[no_leaf_clover]

Regarding what the president can do, he can do anything provided people do what he says. There's a certain power the president has, the executive order, that is totally unconstitutional, but yet has been used throughout our history for various reasons, some better and some worse.

An example of it being put to good use was when Lincoln used an executive order to free the slaves of all the states, or some of Roosevelts actions during the Great Depression. However, these were intelligent, democratic presidents. . . Bush's potential with the executive order can be pretty scary. We'd probably be in Iraq either way right now even in Congress had refused to give Bush the right to send us, and voted against a war there.

If people were willing to carry the order out, he could literally ban people from drinking water, and it would be technically just as legal as when Lincoln freed the slaves. I guess this is where personal judgment comes into play. It seems like Bush wouldn't hesitate to pull some really fascist stuff on us if it wasn't for the fact that it would wake more people up faster.