Samadhi, Satori, Nirvana, Enlightenment, Realization…

[Leo Volont]

Samadhi, Satori, Nirvana, Enlightenment, Realization...

About half a century ago I started out studying the paranormal in order to become proficient with Astral Projection.  I had been an airplane pilot, and looked upon Astral Projection as somewhat equally exciting.  But as I got more involved in the literature I found that most of the experts were more concerned with Higher and Broader Goals – Samadhi, Satori, Nirvana, Enlightenment, Realization, Liberation, God Consciousness, etc, etc.  But on this Site we see none of these objectives given much mention... I haven't been through every post, but from what I have seen, there has been no mention of these Ultimate Ends.

Of course there are hints.  Every person who makes it a huge point to be incoherent and to reject any plausible conceptual models, is, de facto, trying to impress us with their dedication in attempting to transcend the Mind, to go beyond the Ego, and to achieve Unity by rejecting all analytical Dualities.   Yet, we are left with only hints.  I have yet to see an explicit post regarding the pursuit of Satori, or whatever it is they seem to be after.  One can hardly expect much of systematic presentation from the "Wisdom is Ignorance, Ignorance is Wisdom" paradoxes of the Taoist and Zen maniacs.

I remember, though, one of the recurrent themes which all of the second-rate Gurus would strike upon, and that is that all occult powers and psychic gifts must be renounced in the interest of achieving the Primary Goals.  That always seemed to me as though they were making excuses.  Occult Powers and Psychic Gifts, after all, provide for actual objective and discernable attainments.  A person may see these Accomplishments as encouraging signs of progress.  Or, if these gifts are acquired after Enlightenment, or whatever it is called, then they in some sense offer us a form of proof.  It just used to seem too convenient that all of these Second Rate Gurus would insist that they could have Supernatural Powers, IF THEY HAD WANTED TO, but decided to renounce them for some implausible moral grounds.  Then what would they have left to prove their Enlightenment but their ability to ball us over with the same old Spiritual Cliques that we have grown accustomed to hearing from all of the Second Rate Gurus.  But once you have heard it a dozen times, Talk is proof of nothing.

I think it significant that all of the First Rate Gurus have no such moral scruples about demonstrating Supernatural Powers.   Yet it must be admitted that the First Raters agree with the Second Raters in that they advise that a priority be placed on the Higher Goals, while they insist that the incidental Powers will come later as an added benefit.  Which makes me wonder why nobody has thought it worthwhile to discuss the Higher, Primary and Ultimate Goals of the Spiritual Pursuit in any of the Posts I have seen here published.

[daem0n]

one thing, enlightment term is very vague now
for example understanding the nature of oneness is not understanding the nature of reality, and though i am everything i have no idea how it works, and thus supernatural powers are limited
but i percieve it as it is (cracked down and simplified :/), too bad that my brain can't make much of it (but what it does make of it is interesting )
still the brain is unable to handle the flow
what is described as enlightment seems to me a mix of actual enlightment, merging with high self and ascension (buddha ascended btw, although it was incomplete)

[You]

I see them as disintegration of the self, I don't want them right now. I'd be willing to take several steps towards it, but there's too much of life to live to limit yourself to what enlightenment entails.

[Leo Volont]

one thing, enlightment term is very vague now
for example understanding the nature of oneness is not understanding the nature of reality, and though i am everything i have no idea how it works, and thus supernatural powers are limited
but i percieve it as it is (cracked down and simplified :/), too bad that my brain can't make much of it (but what it does make of it is interesting )
still the brain is unable to handle the flow
what is described as enlightment seems to me a mix of actual enlightment, merging with high self and ascension (buddha ascended btw, although it was incomplete)

The Enlightenment Experience always was 'vague'.  It is almost the classic definition that it is 'ineffable', that is, 'unspeakable'.  And yet those who would achieve it would be definately altared in their entire psychological orientation.  They would become veritable Saints.  But Enlightenment has become extremely rare.  And looking about, there are no more Saints.  Growing up, the Catholic Church still had a few living Saints -- Theresa Neumann and Padre Pio, and that Nun in Venezuela.  But since they died, the world has been bereft of Saints.  Even India would be hardpressed to come up with any likely Pretenders ( though there was recently in the news one Pralad Jani, Devotee of one of the Hindu Goddesses, who has given him the Grace to not require food or drink and so hasn't eaten or drank for the last 50 or 60 years, and proved it by staying in observation for 10 days at a Sterling Hospital).

An Angel came to me in a dream and told me that the Peoples of the World are presently undergoing something of a Spiritual Drought, but that there will be a campaign in the up and coming years to bring them to the Spiritual Waters.

Sites like this may become quite important.  If there is a Spiritual Water out there somewhere that will finally break this Spiritual Drought and Famine, the explorers that rendezous on Pages like this are most likely to discover it first.

[halfphased]

Leo, my main concern here is enlightenment and ascension.  I have always seen the purpose of things like astral projection were to  open us up and help us come into realization of who we are.  It seems to me that a lot of what goes into astral projection or energy body development is at the same time pulling away the veil -- clearing it up.  As we continue, we see that it isn't the end-all, but rather it is pointing towards something else.  It's perfect for this time.  We don't want to sit in monastaries any longer, but we will spend hours a day trying to feel energy sensations and experimenting getting past the limits of our bodies.  The marketing is different now.  Enlightenment has lost it's meaning (hrmm....!!!?). Lets just get the boys some psychic powers and know they'll get the gist of it as they open up and the cares of this present time start unwinding.

I get a kick out of jnana yoga.  D*mn if it wont keep you grounded and ungrounded at the same time.  Each one of these stages we can see as being not ultimately real, but at the same time they are not unreal and there is no one stage that is more real then the next.  We keep working out of where we are.  We keep denying what we know as being Real, because it is still bound up in our sense perceptions.  Yet, we can still use it as a tool.  We can still have this sense of the other and have it be real even though it is not Ultimate.  How to have one foot in all places at the same time?  How to be one yet not be one?

[Leo Volont]

I see them as disintegration of the self, I don't want them right now. I'd be willing to take several steps towards it, but there's too much of life to live to limit yourself to what enlightenment entails.

Everyone who has ever attained 'enlightenment' speak in terms of lesser self and Higher Self.  Plato used the Allagory of the Cave -- that presently we live in a cave and our 'Reality' consists of shadows flashing on the Cave Walls.  Certainly leaving the Cave and seeing things as they are in the True Light would be preferrable.

Carl Jung and Shri Aurobindo spoke in terms, not of dissintegration of self, but of integrating and synthesizing into the higher and Transcendental Self.

[Leo Volont]

I get a kick out of jnana yoga.  D*mn if it wont keep you grounded and ungrounded at the same time.  Each one of these stages we can see as being not ultimately real, but at the same time they are not unreal and there is no one stage that is more real then the next.  We keep working out of where we are.  We keep denying what we know as being Real, because it is still bound up in our sense perceptions.  Yet, we can still use it as a tool.  We can still have this sense of the other and have it be real even though it is not Ultimate.  How to have one foot in all places at the same time?  How to be one yet not be one?

I enjoy the section from the First chapter of Arthur Osborne's "The Incredible Sai Baba" in which the Old Saint discusses Jnana Yoga not in the sense that Jnana is 'Knowledge', but only in the sense that it is a Higher Ignorance intended to counter or sweep away a lower ignorance... like a person would use a Stick to sweep the water plants from off the top of a clear pond of water.  

So, moving through the different veils of ignorance is acceptable as long as one keeps moving.  

By the way, "The Incredible Sai Baba" had been out of print for a number of years, but recently The India Club, in Voorhees New Jersey, in America of all places, has done a reprinting.  It is a wonderful little book.

[You]

Tell me this, who judges who is enlightened?

If you're not enlightened, then you're not able to judge.

If you are enlightened, then you could just be doing it to boost your ego and manipulate the 'unenlightened'.

Looking at the root of the word, it just means you can see things better. I wouldn't call myself universally enlightened, so just as I cannot know if there is a god, I cannot know who is 'enlightened' in the perfect meanings of living life and thinking thought.

[daem0n]

Sites like this may become quite important. If there is a Spiritual Water out there somewhere that will finally break this Spiritual Drought and Famine, the explorers that rendezous on Pages like this are most likely to discover it first.

you couldn't be more right
what do you take for spiritual water ?

[Leo Volont]

Tell me this, who judges who is enlightened?

If you're not enlightened, then you're not able to judge.

That's silly.  You don't have to be a 5 Star Chef to know good cooking.  You don't have to be Rembrandt to know good art.  You don't have to write like Shakespeare to know good writing.  You don't even have to know how to even hold a bat to recognize when somebody else can hit a ball over the fence.  An Enlightened Person makes his Enlightenment Evident.

The Literature is full of instances where Enlightened Individuals were able to almost instantaneously reassure people who doubted their Enlightenment.

Perhaps one of the most famous instances of this in History was the Debate between Saint Bernard and Peter Abelard.  Bernard was the most famous Saint and Enlightened Person of his Age, and Abelard the most famous Intellectual Philosopher.  Abelard thought he was doing The Church a big favor by intellectually defending the Faith with Reason and Philosophy.  The Church was worried that it was dangerous to subject Religion to the Trials of Reason, and Bernard quite agreed -- that Reason would not understand the Spirit and would likely renounce it in the end... which proved to be true, after all.  So the Church asked Bernard to persuade Abelard to give up his rational dialectics and allow Spirit to continue to stand apart from Reason.  Bernard was quite at a loss as to what he would say, but he agreed to the debate in obedience to the wishes of the Pope, who had once been one of his own Monks.

On the day of the Debate, Abelard started off and gave his defense of applying Reason in the realms of Theology.  Then it became Bernard's turn and he simply looked over at Abelard from his pulpit.  After a minute of looking into the Saint's eyes Abelard announced that he would recant and he submitted his retirement papers and gave up his Chair of Philosophy at the Sarbonne and went off and spent the rest of his life in Contemplative Orders.

True Englightenment is not something that you need to think over for a very long time.  You know how you can recognize somebody who has charisma?  Well, Enlightenment is like Charisma only multiplied by several factors.  It stands out.  And it is accompanied by the Miraculous.

[Rastus]

Everyone here is Metaphysical to one degree or another.  Many have skills in several fields.  

Very few are 'Awakened' to what they truly are.  You can't force the issue.  If someone chooses to be asleep, then they choose that at a higher level for a reason.  There is also a group that chooses to work unconciously, putting the Planetary and Universal goals ahead of Personal goals.

In the old energy, you could have power without 'enlightenment'.  That is no longer possible.  Many Old ways are fading in the new energy, but some have translated through.

This site is about Astral Projection.  There was no Discussion about the 3rd Grand Quintille this week, do you wonder why?

-Namaste

[daem0n]

i have no idea what it is, as well as others
perhaps this is the reason, i suspect something about astrology

[wisp]

What Rastus has said rings true to my own experience.

Year 2000 I had a very weird dream. The next night I had another strange dream. Before this I was one to have if I was lucky, maybe one or two dreams a year. These two dreams was the mark of my latest spiritual journey.

The powers in the first dream and the signs in the second dream sparked my interest in the symbolic aspect of dreams.What had happened was a supernatural exiting of my lifelong spirit out the window. My spirit communicated this through telepathy, and through manifestations to my daughter and me, at different times. I believe the manifestations to my daughter so as to confirm a reality to me. To this day, my daughter doesn't know who or what the bright light she saw on a couple of nights represents to me.She even heard the voices and described them to me as alien. Hmmm, made sense to me at that time. Main point being, "I'm on the other side of the window",communicates this spirit. This spirit left me, for me to experience something new. Not left me really, just on the other side. I am on my own. My discovery of what the majority of most see of the world, no soul, no spirit, no God, it seems.A darker place compared to what my spirit friend brought to me during my lifetime. I have endured well and learned alot.

My dreams began. A new world to me! Dream's purpose I suppose is to give hope in this world I thought.Also dreams give a sense of self empowerment, something I was quite weak on I discovered. But...more interesting discovery, there are other people who develop this energy I am weak on. Not the usual believers I'm use to, but other kinds of spiritualists, many like here in this forum.  God (the person) is not in it for them in the same way it seems. I learned of the universal god I had only heard about before. I'm still trying to understand the two kinds of belief systems. My original faith is on hold while learning more.I would take my old faith back anyday! This new age or alternative beliefs require alot more self work! But in such a new bleak environment (for me anyway,) maybe this new energy is necessary?

Regarding enlightenment, I think I reached that level. I may have made some mistakes though, spiritual stuff like thinking too much, and hair splinting. In the meantime, I live with my remains.

[You]

Phooey, this is a bunch of hooey. Enlightenment as I understand it, is about absolute understanding, not charisma. Just because people are impressed and don't/can't argue with them doesn't mean they're enlightened, it simply means they're superior. There's nothing good or evil about that. There's nothing divine about it either.

[Leo Volont]

This site is about Astral Projection.  

-Namaste

No, I really was not being irrelevent.  I thought I pointed out that I was presented with the doctrine that if Primary issues were addressed first then these secondary little things would follow.  This means that Astral Projection might be easier if those who aspired to it were to go just a bit past it and acquire a tad more Spiritual Culture.

Also, I wonder that having some Higher Goals might not help with Astral Projections by giving purpose and reason for it.  Astral Projection, in isolation to everything else, is like having a fast car but nowhere to go, no?

There is also the matter of the Higher Spiritual Realms setting up a kind of Security to protect its jurisdictions from frivolous sightseers.  The Security might be waived for those who arrive with some meaningful intent.  Indeed, there might actually be positive help offered to those whose purposes are deemed noble and worthy.

Anyway, for those who seem to have hit a block in their ability to Astral Project, what harm can it do for them to consider that they may need to go deeper into these things before they can have all the fun.

[Leo Volont]

Phooey, this is a bunch of hooey. Enlightenment as I understand it, is about absolute understanding, not charisma.

And are you just guessing... theorizing.

when has there ever been an enlightened person who did not have a great deal of what we can call Charisma, for lack of a better word?

yeah, I suppose there are dweeby losers out there who everyone still walks all over, but they fantasize that they are Enlightened and that nobody understands them...  But, no... Fantasizing that you are enlightened, and REALLY being Enlightened are not the same thing.  

Do a study of Saints and those who have been Enlightened.  There is enough information out there that we can be somewhat empirical here.  We don't really need to limit ourselves to wishful thinking -- indulging ourselves in thinking that we are Enlightened but misunderstood.

I maintain that Enlightened Individuals are never 'misunderstood'.  People understand just fine... some being for them and some being against.  but nobody would mistake them for dweeby self-indulgent fantasizing losers who only pretend they can be Enlightened while nobody else seems to notice.

Even during the Middle Ages, during the Hey Day of Humility, Saints had an unmistakable Charisma, even when it was considered a Vice!

[Leo Volont]

Regarding enlightenment, I think I reached that level. I may have made some mistakes though, spiritual stuff like thinking too much, and hair splinting. In the meantime, I live with my remains.

I think you are very close to Enlightenment.  Another inch to go.

I've heard two almost identical stories... one from the Zen Tradition and one regarding Saint Bernard and one of his young Monks.  In both cases the young monks consulted the Old Masters regarding their Enlightenment Status.  They were counseled to exercise patience.  Time goes by and both young men are off to Town on errands and during their return, for no apparent reason, each suddenly becomes Enlightened.  Each, when still almost a mile from their Monastery, are sighted by their Old Master who can see from that far away that their Young Man has become Enlightened, and preparations are called for to celebrate.

When you become Enlightened you will definitely KNOW it, and other people who KNOW it will see it from a mile away.

[wisp]

Leo Volont,
Thanks for the reply, but you misunderstand me. I was talking about my enlightenment in the pastense (my fault for not being clear). Although, there is alot to be said for learning experiences.

I was trying to express "after enlightenment". Not in the way of the Saints you speak about. Though their interesting, they are not what I aspire to be in the physical world. And I would think their intented purpose didn't include becoming a Saint. Other people made them what they are. But, to each his own on this matter.

I guess I see enlightenment as understanding. This is more what I'm talking about. Just when you think you know it all, you don't. This is where I'm going with my message.

[Leo Volont]

Leo Volont,
I guess I see enlightenment as understanding.

I would think that Enlightenment is beyond understanding, as we ordinarily understand the term.  It is more like a direct perceptive knowing of everything.

Years ago when I was still in my thirties I had a dream in which I was at an award banquet celebrating my 'Enlightenment'.  It came time and a lady presented me with my Certificate of Enlightenment, and as she did she asked me "How old are you".  I replied '43'.  So for years I thought I would be enlightened when I was 43.  Didn't happen.  In fact it was about that time in my life when I left Spirituality and went back to studying History and ordinary worldly pursuits like motorcycle racing and long distance competitive running.

I've been more opinionated and assertive since then.  I think I have become far more discerning.  But I would not call that 'enlightenment'.

[daem0n]

enlightment is not about knowing everything, it is about "being" everything you percieve
you can still not understand how it works, but you will definitely feel what it is, to the degree your body allows you

[You]

And are you just guessing... theorizing.

No. I'm saying that charisma would not be a requirement for enlightenment. It may however, be a side effect, in that you're very likely correct.

when has there ever been an enlightened person who did not have a great deal of what we can call Charisma, for lack of a better word?

If there was we wouldn't know, he wouldn't have been in the spotlight, people wouldn't spread the word about a boring guy, even if he knew the secret meaning of life.

yeah, I suppose there are dweeby losers out there who everyone still walks all over, but they fantasize that they are Enlightened and that nobody understands them...  But, no... Fantasizing that you are enlightened, and REALLY being Enlightened are not the same thing.

Enlightened men wouldn't obsess over the fact that they're enlightened, if they recognized it at all. It is not a status anyway, but an evolution. If you have the humility and security of self to allow others to walk all over you (rather than simply have them do it to you because you can't resist them) then it could still be the actions of an enlightened person if he had a greater purpose in mind.

Do a study of Saints and those who have been Enlightened.  There is enough information out there that we can be somewhat empirical here.  We don't really need to limit ourselves to wishful thinking -- indulging ourselves in thinking that we are Enlightened but misunderstood.

I agree that one should never think he is enlightened. "A fool thinks himself to be wise. A wise man knows himself to be foolish." However, I will never base my judgement of past 'enlightened' people simply on the history books. I will judge only words, and say 'The words spoken here were either accidentally very profound, or spoken by an enlightened man. If they truly were spoken by this man, then he is what I would call enlightened, as they inspire me."

I maintain that Enlightened Individuals are never 'misunderstood'.  People understand just fine... some being for them and some being against.  but nobody would mistake them for dweeby self-indulgent fantasizing losers who only pretend they can be Enlightened while nobody else seems to notice.

Oy... where does this come from?

Even during the Middle Ages, during the Hey Day of Humility, Saints had an unmistakable Charisma, even when it was considered a Vice!

You assume Saints were Enlightened, heh. Saints just did very 'godly' things.

[Leo Volont]

Enlightened men wouldn't obsess over the fact that they're enlightened, if they recognized it at all. It is not a status anyway, but an evolution.

I'm not saying I'm enlightened.  I am saying that it is is OBVIOUS to those who are Enlightened that they are Enlightened, and it is CLEAR to everybody else in their circle, that they are indeed special and set apart.

There may be some Evolution involved in getting there, but all of the Traditions, but yours, apparently, agree that Enlightenment somes suddenly and totally, presenting something of a Quantum Leap from one state to another.  Ofcourse, once Enlightened there may be growth at that Level, but it is on a whole other continuum from what us ordinary mortals experience.  From the first moment of Enlightenment, the Enlightened are a complete Level above everybody else.  

There is no such thing as being a little bit 'Enlightened'.

[Leo Volont]

enlightment is not about knowing everything, it is about "being" everything you percieve
you can still not understand how it works, but you will definitely feel what it is, to the degree your body allows you

Yeap.  That's kinda what I'm talking about.

[Leo Volont]

I maintain that Enlightened Individuals are never 'misunderstood'.  People understand just fine... some being for them and some being against.  but nobody would mistake them for dweeby self-indulgent fantasizing losers who only pretend they can be Enlightened while nobody else seems to notice.

Oy... where does this come from?

All my life I've encountered people who decided that they would use some kind of 'Faith' or 'Positive Affirmation' in order to acquire their Enlightenment, and so they would adopt the procedure of pretending to be Enlightened already, and they would either insist that they were Enlightened, or being cautious that "those who say they are Enlightened are NOT Enlightened" would be careful not to say they were Enlightened but would keep up an affected pretense that they were Enlightened -- quoting all appropriate taoist cliches.  But it would all be ludicrous pretention.  I could not recognize any Existential Force or Spiritual Presence in such pretenders.  It became more and more difficult to have patience with such people.  Their Act verged on prevarication.  There lifestyles were often fabrications.  They had no Sincerity.  

If a people are honest, they will simply admit that they are NOT Enlightened.  Is it wrong to have contempt for people who pretend to be what they obviously are not?

[daem0n]

one cannot use faith to become enlightment
it is about realization, and faith is presumption

one thing that i noticed is when you pretend to act as enlightened person, you  don't act true to yourself, and hence it is BS
the same with all of those who say - if you will act selflessly to others then you will become enlightened, and true sign of enlightment is service to others - BS
how can you work on something (unconscious egoism (because egoism is good, and enlightened can be egoitical, although selfless)) if you are pushing it and restraining yourself ?, you don't work on enlightment, but on restraining yourself to look enlightened
but as we see SOME monks do succed
also EP (shortcut of enlightened people) can manifest what they want, act as they like, and are not bound to any expectations made by blind folks