Expectations, people, dissapointment

[JAW]

Hi, not sure if this is the right place to post, but Ive got a number of things Id love to discuss and would like to hear peoples suggestions/advice.

I'm mid 20's now and find myself increasingly frustrated and stressed out due to my own expectations of people, what they should be doing, or how they should be, and I get very riled up when things aren't the way they're supposed to be. I think I'm fairly smart, plus sensitive to this sort of thing, so if anything isn't quite right it gets to me. What I'm talking about precisely is anything from repeated late replies to emails/sms, people saying they will do something and not, saying it will be done by x time and its not, people not listening/being rude, getting treated one way when you expect better from friends or family, and so on. Now and again I might be paranoid but most of this stuff is definitely not being over the top, you'll just have to trust me in this discussion. However I guess this is a fairly large point, in that I think to most people, this stuff seems normal and doesn't bother them...?

Id love to hear peoples advice here - am I expecting too much? If so how/should I lower my expectations or just get away from those people/situations?

Have you got any advice on how to let this stuff go over my head/not affect me as much?

I know its horrible but at the moment Id almost say Ive never met anyone outside my own family who I could say I like, respect and trust with all of the above. But its so true. I'm not saying I'm a saint, I just try my hardest but it seems 99.9% of people don't.

Anyone have any books or links they think would help?

Frustrated,
JAW

[alexd]

I'm mid 20's now and find myself increasingly frustrated and stressed out due to my own expectations of people, what they should be doing, or how they should be, and I get very riled up when things aren't the way they're supposed to be.

How can you decide what people "should" be doing?

Someone may be equally unhappy with how you are and how you act, and may be feeling the same way. It's important to keep in mind that each person in their own mind thinks they are "right" and their actions are "right". Remember when someone is being rude to you they will not see it that way. If they do, most of the time they will regret their actions straight away or at a later time.

At the start of my philosophical endeavour I had a completely relativistic mindset. This essentially means that no objective reality exists. Which hence means that any idea of "right" or "wrong" is completely subjective or relative. So what is good for someone is bad for someone else. Although I no longer hold this belief system absolutely it is useful to keep it's mechanics in mind as it often applies to life situations. You may see your self as "good" and everyone else as imperfect, but I assure you this is the wrong mindset to have. The reason is that most people feel the same way. Many people have a mindset such as you and it is defiantly hard to break out of. Our general human nature is to see ourselves as right and all else as not quite up to that standard. The only real important advice I can give you is don't judge.

From a more practical position I can say that I can truly relate to what you are saying. But only now that I have read your post I have become really aware of it, because as you said I have "lowered my expectations" of people over time. Because of similar experiences I expect people no longer to do things, and consequently take people less seriously in general. Often I can recall memories that many people do not remember and so they seem to no longer be significant. I ask someone to go to a movie with me repeatedly and they keep forgetting, so eventually I stop asking. I ask someone to do something consistently and they do not do it, so I stop asking. Sometimes I try to go inside their mind and question their actions, other times I can't be bothered and just let it go.

My best explanation for the problems of people acting the way they do is the demands of modern lifestyle. The forceful contempt and ignorance of spirituality has lead to people living their entire lives in a state of overpowering sleep. With a limited awareness of self and surroundings people no longer see the truth or act wisely as they are driven by desire and not will. The ongoing degeneration into materialism would explain why things "aren't going the way they're suppose to be". For things to change as such people must learn to live their lives awake.

Obviously though, the most helpful advice I can give you is to accept people as they are and not to get too frustrated with how they act. Things may not always be right just because you think they are right or wrong. But even so it is not up to you to force people to act in a particular way, the only thing you can do is act how you believe is right and let people follow (they will). Finally, consider how much critism about you exists in other peoples minds. No-one is perfect.


Alex

[JAW]

How can you decide what people "should" be doing?

Because its so obvilously what they should be doing Ie, they steal, when they "should" not. They say they will do something and they dont - they should have. etc.

You may see your self as "good" and everyone else as imperfect, but I assure you this is the wrong mindset to have. The reason is that most people feel the same way. Many people have a mindset such as you and it is defiantly hard to break out of. Our general human nature is to see ourselves as right and all else as not quite up to that standard.

I definitely dont mean to say Im perfect, neither do I think other people think theyre "good" or overly considerate or mindful of their actions, etc. They may think they are "good people", but I always feel Im a big level above most (ok I know that sounded bad), because I make a big, conscious effort. Many, many, many times Ive been situations where I notice something happen that would make me label someone as inconsiderate, rude, etc and somehow they dont even know theyre doing it - such as one friend talking to another about something very (VERY) important to them, which is casually listened to then ignored, and Ive had to cut in and make sure that person feels theyve been listened to. Sometimes I wonder if its an age thing but a lot of the time this stuff happens to people from all ages.

The only real important advice I can give you is don't judge.

Yes I could definitely try and do that more. However I really get the whole "gotta get it off my chest" syndrome too, and only feel better about all of the above when Im doing that. I know thats one of my big short comings, and it must make people wonder what I say about them behind their backs... One thing thats popped up in conversation a few times is how good it would be not to be an overanalyser! However I think overanalysing and thoughtfulness/consideration are probably interlinked.

Obviously though, the most helpful advice I can give you is to accept people as they are and not to get too frustrated with how they act.

Ok but where do you think the line is where you say "I accept its going to be like this" or "this is unacceptable, cya later" or "this is unacceptable" then give them a piece of your mind. This sorta draws into the question of what should you allow to happen (say you are abused in some way) before its right to "fight back" or really lay something on the line/tell someone how you feel, etc. You cant take a flat out insult or be disrespected and say "aww, no one's perfect"

Thanks heaps for your reply though I really appreicate your time. Ive come to a point where I feel I need to do something different in the way I think and Id love to learn from some people such as yourself how youve tackled it. Sounds like I may be in for a long haul though

[You]

I've stolen I feel bad about it though, but since I was brainwashed not to steal, I'll never know if I would have naturally felt bad about it myself. That has been stolen from me by enforced moralities. Damnit!

Anyway, Robin Hood stole, but everyone loves him, so who decides when things are right or wrong? It's all relative.

In essence, something is wrong when it interferes with you, or what you like. We like a society where we know our things won't be taken, so someone stealing violates that comfort, and must be dealt with and eliminated... so it's wrong.

[wisp]

JAW,
Nicely said.I understand what your saying. I was expecting people at large to be more evolved than what they are. I'm even amazed at the slow (if any) growth spiritually over time. It's helped me by seeing it as a herd mentality. To see it as a phenomenom keeps it interesting instead of sad.

You mentioned your family. I grew up in a family with high morals and ideals. My world around this (outside family) also contained the same kind. Once integrated into society the nature of things seem to change for me. Before I knew it, I've noticed a general decline in society as a whole.It may be my path in life, or it could be changing times.

I have found it important to stick with my ideas and principles. What people do in front of our eyes can be seen as a learning experience.It's always encouraging when you find certain people pick you out secretly and you can cause a change in their thinking. It gives hope for two.Most of the time it's just being a sounding board for someone who trusts you enough to say/express who they really are.

Sometimes things have to get worse before it gets better as the saying goes.

Society's trend today seems to be toward dumbing down the general population. Be a beacon of light, or a spark of light in the darkness.

Something I've discovered. People are in a survivalist's mode for the most part. The one's with the more winning edge seem to trample on others. Many of them who are trampled on are one in the same bunch.They too would trample if given a chance.They seem to have animal natures. It's things like this that is interesting.

I don't believe in judging others. However, you have to make judgments about who you allow yourself to be around. When this is a choice, you bet I'll judge for myself. If I don't have a choice (rare), I make the best of it.There is something good hidden in most people. I just choose to stay away from their presenting part. Survivalists are not at their best.

Listen to your critics. It's better to hear them out than be a victim of their rage.Sometimes you have to blend into the herd mentality. Let them have their way with you. Some interesting observations can be made while their picking at your carcass.

Tyciol,
Stealing from another HURTS the one stolen from. It's not your place to judge a person's right to have something. It sounds more like you are justifying the theft of something. It's better to leave other people's stuff alone.How can they feel secure or good about such an act? There is enough hurt to go around. Don't be the problem. And don't kid yourself!

[You]

Actually the last thing (and the only thing from my memory) I consciously stole was a Mars bar with my best friend when I was seven years old, from a General Store which we used to blow whole wads of cash on to buy Pogs and Videos and snacks. Who remembers Pogs? Those were neat. Anyway, the thrill was short-lived, and I felt guilty and wished I could take it back and give back the money, but I was too cowardly, I felt that if I tried to give the money back I'd get in trouble and it might get my friend in trouble. By the time I decided I wanted to make amends (which was after I left the town) I found out the store was under a new ownership, which meant that I wouldn't be benefitting the person who lost the $1.50 or whatever it was anyway. Oy... there's a lesson fer ya.

I'm definitely not justifying it. What gave you that impression?

[alexd]

Continue stealing stuff and after a few times you won't feel guilty anymore. Like serial killers who eventually loose all remorse for their victims. If you steal something and don't feel bad about it then who is to say that it is wrong? I am not condoning it and yes it is wrong. But the reason lies in our societal conventions, shaping by modern culture and most importantly our psychology. So we say "would I like this to be done to me?" and surely you would not want someone to steal what is yours so don't do it to others. This is a basic system of attaining a good sense of what is right and wrong without societal prejudices.

Herein lies the key to what you should expect of people. So let's say "I expect someone to be polite to me". Then you notice people are being rude to you. Now, much of the time in their mind they are being polite, it is just their way of talking. Too many times I have gotten offended to later find out 'that's not what someone meant at all'. It is useful to let go of any rigid beliefs or expectations of what other people should be like. Why should we expect someone to do something anyway? If they do not act in a certain way isn't it to their own detriment?

It's important to remember that not everyone is bad. I have often not listened carefully enough to my friends with problems. I have often not acted as I should have to defend my friends and values in particular situations. I have often being impolite and made many mistakes. It is important to let people learn from their mistakes and hopefully they will act more wisely next time. Of course I understand that at the moment the person may appear to be mean or rude. Therefore you could point out their wrongdoing to them, politely. I'm not saying to not to do anything about it, defend what you believe is right by all means. However, don't go overboard. As I said, it is not up to us to dictate how other people should act. Obviously in such situations as you mentioned I would try to fix the wrong done. Take into account that people have a right to act how they wish. In spite of this you can show them how you think they should act.


Alex

[alexd]

Also, in regard to any books or links that are available on the subject.

I couldn't think of any at first but if you are interested in understanding the mechanics of why people act the way they do it would be beneficial to study spiritual psychology, namely the "Searching Within" course here has been most eye opening for me on this subject.

Also this article and further articles on the same site may be useful.

And lastly it would be beneficial to meditate as it will lead to a greater understanding of yourself and will hopefully provide you with more wisdom to understand and better deal with the actions of other people.


Alex

[wisp]

Nicely said, alexd. Thanks for the links too.

Tyciol,
You ask:

I'm definitely not justifying it. What gave you that impression?

This statement you made, made me think you thought stealing is okay.

Anyway, Robin Hood stole, but everyone loves him, so who decides when things are right or wrong? It's all relative.

Sorry if I misunderstood.  

[You]

Oh, oy, sorry I'm just being defensive there :p

That was meant as a joke, though there is some truth in it.

Robin stole back what was stolen from the people through unjust taxation.

So... perhaps it's not stealing, and wouldn't be a relevant analogy?

[wisp]

Tyciol,

So... perhaps it's not stealing, and wouldn't be a relevant analogy?

Your probably right.

[Telos]

Some people just don't like to operate on a strict schedule. This is very evident in the arena of international business. A Japanese businessperson who precisely allocates his time will find it naturally difficult to work with a Fillipino businessperson who is generally more lax with scheduling. In most hispanic cultures, it's very normal to show up an hour late to a party or to sometimes take 30 extra minutes on a lunch break.

JAW, remind yourself that your life does not depend on other people. And don't be afraid to be a nag or be rude if something is especially important to you. Continuously let the person know how important something is and, if possible, relate it to something in their life so that they also feel its importance. They'll get the picture.

For reading, I recommend The Enchiridion, by Epictetus, a Greek stoic philosopher around the time of Christ. An online version can be found here:

http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html

It begins with:

Some things are in our control and others not.

[beavis]

Have you got any advice on how to let this stuff go over my head/not affect me as much?

For example, if John tells you he'll have your grass mowed by thursday, think about how reliable he (or people like him) has been in the past. Think to yourself "there is a 60% chance it will be done on time". If something else depends on the grass being mowed, make 2 plans, one for the 40% and one for 60%. Then when he's late, you expected it and are not mad.

[JAW]

Thanks guys,
Ive also started reading the "Art of Happiness" by the Dali Lama which is helping.
Best Regards.

[catmeow]

Hi all

JAW, I agree with everything you have said.  

I am constantly disappointed by the behaviour of others.  My brother used to arrive 2 hours late when he came to visit, and then on one occasion he spent about 45 minutes phoning his friends after he arrived.  The subsequent verbal explosion, which occurred when he hung up and immediately started phoning somebody else, means that he has never ever again arrived late or tried to phone his friends from my house...  

This essentially means that no objective reality exists. Which hence means that any idea of "right" or "wrong" is completely subjective or relative. So what is good for someone is bad for someone else.

In actual fact, each society develops a set of standards of acceptable behaviour which the majority of the members of that society agree upon.  These standards can differ widely from one culture to another.  But I think it's important to try to stick to the accepted standards of whatever society you find yourself in.

Basically, we all know what is polite and what is rude.  Different people within a society have slightly different ideas of what is polite and rude of course, but I have found that when people behave more than slightly inconsiderately it is almost always for one of two reasons:

1. They didn't think about how their actions would affect others
2. They did think but they didn't care

If I think it's number 2, then I probably won't bother with that person any more. If it's number 1, then I'll just let it go, because I know I'm guilty of number 1 too....  That's unless it's a big infringement in which case they might get an explosion!

Having said all that I'm no saint myself, and I can think of friends who would say "listen to him!".  But oh well...  

catmeow