Satanism

[You]

What is everyone's opinion of Satanism (meaning what was defined in the Satanic Bible by Anton La Vey)? Is anyone here a Satanist? If you do or do not like it, why? I'll post my own response to this soon after some others do so it will be neutral.

[Leo Volont]

Even the Spiritual World is divided between Liberals and Conservatives.

Liberals are those who use the Power of the Collective to build up Civilizations and Paradices.  Heaven is the Creation of the Collective of God.

Conservatives are the Barbarians who wish to ride in and plunder all that the Liberals have built of their honest labor.  And they wish to use Force to enslave the Collective -- placing themselves above it but not within it.

It brings us to the core definition of Good and Evil.  Good is the impulses of Love which bring society together and make all Souls One in Spirit.  Evil is the impulse to divide and pillage.  Any temptation to put oneself before the good of others is inherently Evil.

[Moonburn33]

what makes you think that if a person is selfish that they want to rape and pillage?

[Asif]

What I like about LaVey's Satanism is the emphasis on individuality, accountability, intellectualism, and personal strength.  However, I have a problem with the first Satanic statement: "Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!".  I believe self-discipline is crucial in every facet of our lives - it is what keeps us from becoming sub-animalistic.

I know that to them, Satan represents all of these qualities, but I wouldn't be surprised if they partially used the term "Satanism" for a shock effect; I would respect the religion more if they used a different term, but Satanism is certainly not evil.  It's refreshing to find a non-traditional faith that doesn't believe in universal interconnection and that love is the key to everything!  But then again, many (if not most) modern Satanists are atheists/agnostics and do not concern themselves with deities or spirits.

[Moonburn33]

a lot of satanists follow chaos magick... which is an odd mix of things.

[Leo Volont]

what makes you think that if a person is selfish that they want to rape and pillage?

It's their moral orientation.  If you are selfish, then why not rape and pillage.  People rape and pillage all the time.  Going to Thailand on vacation where some poor farmer will be pressed into selling his 10 year old daughter so that you may have a plaything -- that is rape.  Exploiting others, which is the Entire Point of Capitalism, is pillage.

You often see people even take pride in selfishness. When people put their cars or old musical instruments up for sale, they will brag about how much more they got than they seriously thought their item was worth, and they gloat and laugh about how they managed to victimize another person.  yes, it is only small time rape and pillage, but these people, in addition to being evil, are also only small.

Indeed, once you know a person is inherently selfish, then there is no crime that you could not suspect them of.  They may refrain from criminal acts, but only because they have the fear of terrible consequences.  If they were assured they would never get caught, there would be no end to their evil.

Many evil people are convinced that everyone is selfish.  this is simply not true.  There are many people in the world who are other-directed.  They always think in terms of family, community and society.  In America, they are the BLUES.  the selfish ones are the REDS.  Yes, the BLUES are the minority, but they are not far behind.  However, it does not bode well that morality is now out of office and that Selfishness now Rules the World.  It appears like the 21st Century is about to replay the 20th... oh what fun to do all of that over again.

[Leo Volont]

...but I wouldn't be surprised if they partially used the term "Satanism" for a shock effect; I would respect the religion more if they used a different term, but Satanism is certainly not evil.

Oh, no, don't make that mistake.  Satanism IS evil.  The moral orientation of Satanism is toward the individual -- the goals are hedonistic and the goals are for material acquisition and sexual conquest.  Society and Civilization are presented as targets.

What you mistake for Virtue is what Selfish People always present as Virtue -- the cultivation of Strength to Domineer Others -- the Rugged Individual -- the Self Made Man.  All of these 'Virtuous Figures' are simply models of Lucifer.

You need to decide upon what your Ideal is.  Do you have a Civilized Ideal.  Or do you have a Barbarian Ideal.  Do you want to uphold a Civilization, or do you want to Conquer, and destroy so that in gathering a big bag of loot you may satisfy that you have gotten more than if you had lived as part of an honest community.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Amazon.com
One might expect The Satanic Bible at least to offer a few prancing demons or a virgin sacrifice, but if you hopped this train expecting a tour of the house of horrors, you're on the wrong ride. Far from a manual for conquering the realms of earth, air, fire, and water, The Satanic Bible is Anton LaVey's manifesto of a new religion separate from the "traditional" Judeo-Christian definitions of Satanism. While LaVey rails against the deceit of the Christian church and white magicians, he busily weaves his own deceptions.
The Satanic Bible claims the heritage of a horde of evil deities--Bile', Dagon, Moloch, and Yao Tzin to name a few--but these ancient gods have no coherent connection between each other or to Satanism, except that all have been categorized by Christianity as "evil." Calling on these ancient names like a magician shouting, "Abracadabra," LaVey attempts to shatter the classical depiction of Satanism as a cult of black mass and child sacrifice. As the smoke clears, he leads us through a surprisingly logical argument in favor of a life focused on self-indulgence. The Satanic Bible is less bible and more philosophy (with a few rituals thrown in to keep us entertained), but this philosophy is the backbone of a religion that, until LaVey entered the scene, was merely a myth of the Christian church. It took LaVey, and The Satanic Bible, to turn this myth into a legitimate public religion. --Brian Patterson

Product Description:


Called "The Black Pope" by many of his followers, Anton La Vey began the road to High Priesthood of the (lurch of Satan when he was only 16 years old and an organ player in a carnival:


"On Saturday night I would see men lusting after halfnaked girls dancing at the carnival, and on Sunday morning when I was playing the organ for tent-show evangelists at the other end of the carnival lot, I would see these same men sitting in the pews with their wives and children, asking God to forgive them and purge them of carnal desires. And the next Saturday night they'd be back at The carnival or some other place of indulgence.

"I knew then that the Christian Church thrives on hypocrisy, and that man's carnal nature will out!"


From that time early in his life his path was clear. Finally, on the last night of April, 1966 -- Walpurgisnacht, the most important festival of the believers in witchcraft -- LaVey shaved his head in the tradition of Ancient executioners and announced the formation of The Church Of Satan. He had seen the need for a church that would recapture man's body and his carnal desires as objects of celebration. "Since worship of fleshly things produces pleasure," he said, "there would then be a temple of glorious indulgence . . ."
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380015390/qid=1101822066/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-1868820-9220168?v=glance&s=books&n=507846



I have not read this yet but plan to some day. Having not read it I cannot really comment on it, but I will say that those I have talked to who have read it give it much praise. From what I have gathered it is better taken as a philosophy rather than a religion.

[You]

Leo Volont: Satanists do not rape or pillage. While it does emphasize selfishness, it is conservative selfishness. Selfishness left unchecked leads to anarchy, which is unmanageable and dangerous, even for the strongest people.

Read the Satanic rules of the earth, they not only have rules against rape, but against harming children or animals.

[Leo Volont]

Read the Satanic rules of the earth, they not only have rules against rape, but against harming children or animals.

Satan telling you that he does not believe in Rape and Pillage is like George Bush saying that he is a compassionate conservative.

Goodness is Community mindedness, selflessness, and sharing.  Love.

Evil and Your Satanism is all that is selfish and springs from selfishness.  Whether you like it or not, every criminal act involving one person victimizing another for his own selfish ends, is Satanic.

Essentially Satanism is the motivating force of Barbarism as it seeks to destroy Civilization.  Throughout History there has never been much of a shortage of Barbarians.  They recruit among people who think they can do better for themselves by plundering the Greater Community then by working with it.

[You]

I'm referring to Satanism as set out in the Satanic Bible by Anton La Vey, not devil worshiping animal sacrifice biblical Antichrist Satanism. This is not theistic, it has very little to do with the Satan from the Holy Bible of Christianity.

Before I go on to argue further Leo, do you understand this, and have you read the Satanic Bible? If not, you have no reason to be debating here. No more than I would to debate Christianity if I hadn't heard of Jesus or the Ten Commandments.

[fuji257]

Most Satanist don't even believe in a Satan.

Some christians don't, and with good reason:

http://www.potts.net.au/Stand/satan/ot_satan.htm   (a good biblical argument for the non existance of a devil)

I study the Bible a lot, but it is by NO MEANS my "holy book" or moral guidance.  I share the OPINION that there is no Satan.

Antons choice of the name "Satanism", has done wonders for the modern church.  Nothing quite like an xtian fundy spotting the Satanic Bible in a book store     I can only imagine the shock when the Satanic Bible was new.  Because of his choice of words, secular humanist have a bad name, and the church gets more members with a little realism to strengthen the myth that "the Devils gonna get 'ya!"

My OPINION:

Satanist = Humanist

Devil Worshiper = Rebelious youths who want shock value

Lucifarian (sp) = Moron.  Lucifer was NEVER the name of a being.  Its a planet.  If a religion can't get the name of their god right . . .

[Kane98969]

I belive that anything concievable in the mind exists on some level which is why I think importiant to control your thoughts aswell as your actions.

Who knows, maybe thats why (according to Spectral Dragon's topic a few months ago)fantasy universes exist in the astral.

[You]

Lucifer was the name of a torch-bearer, and it was not simply a planet. If you'll look at roman mythology, many gods and planets shared names too.

[Moonburn33]

Tyciol is right.

And as for anyone saying that Satanism is inherently self-destructive should keep their mouths shut.  Worshipping the self means soothing and cultivating the self.  It's about doing what you truly want to do- even loving and caring for the sick... if you're into that sort of thing

[Gandalf]

Well, he was a planet AND a deity, as many deities are represented by planets.
Tyciol is right, 'Lucifer' translates as 'light bearer' and was the name of a minor Roman deity, who was identified with the Morning Star, hense the name 'light bearer'. There was nothing particlularly 'evil' about him, he was just a minor deity; there is a couple of references the the quite harmless Lucifer in the poems of the Roman poet Ovid for example, dated to the late 1st centuryBC.

However there is also the hebrew diety of misrule, Satan, who only took shape in Hebrew doctrine as a personification of 'evil' in the 3rd century bc or so, due to influence from Zoarastianism.

now this character, while having no direct relation the the Roman deity, DID share a few charactersistics, hense when Christianised Romans came to write about Satan they noted the similarites and gennerly used the name Lucifer, but now to apply to this Hebrew deity.

by the end of the Roman perod, the original Roman diety had been fogotten with the Hebrew Satan figure now happily using the name 'Lucifer' for himself.


As for LeVay's satanism, i agree Satanists do not actually believe in a horned devil figure laughing it up in hell, but more as a metaphor for individualism.

I disagree with the idea that satanists are simply 'Humanists' in the modern sense. This implies that the Humanism movement champions self centred individulism and personal gain above everything else.. this is not correct and sounds more like christian propaganda.

Humanists are very concerned with morality, just as anyone else, they just believe in a secular morality, in the spirit of the best greek philosophers and modern philosophers like kant and Hume etc.

If we are being more correct here, satanism equals 'modern capatilist ideals', ie personal gain, competition, make as much money and material gain as possible, you are number one, no one else is going to look after you, you have to do it yousef, law of the jungle etc.

These are all the rules of modern western capitalist society.

The satanist simply says that rather than feel guity about this reality (which is what it is, we can wax on about ideals but the above description is about how the world actually *is* not how it 'should' be), instead we should celebrate this fact about ourselves..

There is also a warped sense of humour involved of course, since it must be known that the use of the christians satan figure is bound to annoy conservatives, and is partly the reason they use it...

In fact LeVay's satanism is not that remarkable or controversial upon examination.

I want to point out the distinction however between Satanism and the concept of 'devil worship' found in goth/nu metal and hollywood movies.

Christian conservatives havent actually got round to the fact that this is a myth.. black sabbaths etc only became written about in the 17th century, by christian monks no less.

While sporadic cases of 'real' devil worship occur today they are always traced back to rebel teens who like to try and rebel by 'worshipping satan'; the great irony is that in their urge to rebel against the christian beliefs of their parents, they actually end up *reinforcing* their parents religion, since satan is a christian figure!!!!

If they really want to rebel, why no become a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a pagan???

All this is a bit to complicated for the press and much of hollywood unfortunalty, which is where most christian conservatives get their information from!

Douglas

[fuji257]

Yes you are all correct on what you say about the name Lucifer.

But is there really enough information available on this "minor diety" to have a religion named after him/her/it?

I'm asking - I really don't know. But in my opionion, based on my limited knowlege: NO.

>> " . . . for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is that the         same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to Jesus, in         2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros'         'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for Jesus in Revelation 22:16." <<    http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml

I find the historical origins of "the Devil" very interesting.

[fuji257]

Gandalf said:

>> I disagree with the idea that satanists are simply 'Humanists' in the modern sense. This implies that the Humanism movement champions self centred individulism and personal gain above everything else.. this is not correct and sounds more like christian propaganda.
 
Humanists are very concerned with morality, just as anyone else, they just believe in a secular morality, in the spirit of the best greek philosophers and modern philosophers like kant and Hume etc.
 
If we are being more correct here, satanism equals 'modern capatilist ideals', ie personal gain, competition, make as much money and material gain as possible, you are number one, no one else is going to look after you, you have to do it yousef, law of the jungle etc. <<

VERY good points. Thank You.

[Gandalf]

fuji257_

you re right, there is not enough on the minor roman deity to make a religion out of it, not because we dont know enough, we do, it just that there isnt much to know, he was responsible for making sure the Morning star came up every day, that's it.

Any 'religion' would have to be based on the Hebrew Satan figure, the one who eventially adopted the name Lucifer as well; this is where we get to Le Vay's satanism.. which is metaphorical rather than literal....

What the church didnt realise when they made up their devil worship/black sabbath mythology was how utterly absurd it all was..
no sane minded individual would 'give their souls to satan in return for a bit of material gain', metaphorically they might, but not in a literal sense.. how could you enjoy your gains knowing you were going to roast in hell afterwards and be used as satan's sex aid? I would challenge you to find anyone who would actually consider this who wasnt nuts.. the only ones who might were those who didnt believe it in any case, which just reinforces my point about how absurd it is.

The church liked to spread the idea that there WERE people who would consider this a good trade but there has been NO EVIDENCE of any such things taking place in recorded history, i cant emphaise this enough..
the only thing that MAY have occured is some christian accidentally bumping inot some pagan practice out in the sticks somewhere and mistaking this for 'devil worship' but thats about it..

The ONLY time we have EVER had any confirmed 'devil worship' (outside of LeVay) is within the past century thanks to the spread of hollywood movies etc and it is ALWAYS traced back to rebellious teens trying to be 'evil' or nutcases who have watched said movies and taken them as fact.

the devil worshp myth is one of the most bizarre myths ever spread by the church and is alive and well today, being peddled by the christian right, often in the shape of nightmarish satanist conspiracies to control the world.

Le Vay's philosophy has just made this a lot more complicated now thanks to his use of the term 'satanism'.. thanks mr LeVay


Douglas

[You]

Such complications incite thoughts. Thoughts people need to have to fully shed the dogma they've had drilled into them. As adamant as I am, the morality is still deep within me. I don't know what's religion, what's parental, what's experience, and what's me.

[Bex]

I have many friends who are Satanists (by the Church of Satan, run by Anton LeVay) and they are by no means devil worshippers or Luciferians.  I dislike people who are so ignorant to not know the difference.  My friends are all good people who simply, as the D&D nerds would say, are alignment True Neutral and not so caught up with worrying about others or having others fret over them.  In a way, parts of me are still Satanist -- as I was a practising one only a year ago.  While now I am following the path of Buddha, I can't help but stray and become a little .. . peeved when I see such idiocy as those who blindly label Satanists as the Christian enemy.  After all, having to INVENT an enemy is elementary and only proves your lack of faith.

[You]

You could try a bit of both you know Just because most satanists want material wealth and pride/ego, it doesn't mean you have to be like them. It's all about what you want!

It might be more proper to say 'founded' by Anton La Vey, since he's dead now and can't run it. I forget who runs it now... I thought about joining but it figures, the second I do they boost up the membership fee from $100 to $200. Screw that, they'd better lower it, otherwise I'm saving for other stuff.

[Bex]

You could try a bit of both you know Just because most satanists want material wealth and pride/ego, it doesn't mean you have to be like them. It's all about what you want!

It might be more proper to say 'founded' by Anton La Vey, since he's dead now and can't run it. I forget who runs it now... I thought about joining but it figures, the second I do they boost up the membership fee from $100 to $200. Screw that, they'd better lower it, otherwise I'm saving for other stuff.

True, true.  I do think that I *am* a bit of both.  I find it hard to commit myself fully to anything, since doubt still appears every so often.  I've been told by some people that I'm too kind and giving to be a Satanist, but by others that I'm way too fiery and selfish to be a Buddhist.  I know that I refer to what other people say a lot, but it's hard to just ignore other opinions.  I guess a part of me really admires and loves my touchy, yet proud, Aries nature -- and another part wants to be a calm, Shinto priestess in a Buddhist temple.  Eh.  But this isn't the feudal era.

[You]

I didn't know Buddhists had to be unselfish or Satanists uncharitable... that's news to me.

[Bex]

Well, you know how people are.  

Stereotypical.

Most of it comes from me blowing up at idiots and them saying "I thought you were trying for enlightenment."  To which I respond, "I am.  It's hard.  *punch!*"