spirit guides=useless

[aryanknight666]

spirit guides, angels etc are useless.
If one of you channeled an angel or a guide right now or whatever, there would be absolutely no way to prove that the guide really exists as an external being. That guide would not be able to tell me any information about myself, such as my middle name, or what color shirt I am wearing. There is absolutely nothing any of these entities can do to prove they actually externally exist. If asked to do one of these things, they were say that there is no need for them to do that for one reason or another.
I really don't see what use they are for. Anyone care to convince me otherwise?

[Eol007]

Smiles,

A guide (for the sake of a label) will prove themselves if asked, but continually seek to open ones eyes to their presence regardless.

The rest is up to you!

Good luck,



Stephen

[James S]

Hello AK,

Feeling like a bit of controversy for controversy's sake eh?

So, why should any spirit bother to prove themselves to anyone but the ones they are dealing directly with at the time?

Spirits do not come with trumpet fanfares and big budget lightshows to announce their existence to all. That's the stuff of religious mythology and James Randi followers.

And I'm not sure exactly how asking a guide about the colour of your shirt is going to be of benefit to me? The teachers of our spiritual evolution are not interested in parlour tricks.

Besides, proof, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Kind regards,
James.

[aryanknight666]

Hello AK,

Feeling like a bit of controversy for controversy's sake eh?

So, why should any spirit bother to prove themselves to anyone but the ones they are dealing directly with at the time?

Spirits do not come with trumpet fanfares and big budget lightshows to announce their existence to all. That's the stuff of religious mythology and James Randi followers.

And I'm not sure exactly how asking a guide about the colour of your shirt is going to be of benefit to me? The teachers of our spiritual evolution are not interested in parlour tricks.

Besides, proof, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Kind regards,
James.

If proof is in the eye of the beholder then there would be no such thing as science as it is today. All things can be proved, and they can be proved to everyone, unless of course they do not exist.
It really takes no effort whatsoever (apparently for a spirit anyway) to determine the colour of my shirt and tell it to me, and if it can't 'help' then it can't 'hurt' can it?
I have also dealt with many 'spirits' before. Some of which, have proved their existance. If the teachers of 'our spiritual evolution' as you put it, are not interested in proving themselves, then doesn't that mean they've potentially lost hordes of people who would hop on the spiritual evolution band wagan    ?
The fact is, this can be directly proved, as science has shown. When you ask for proof from a spirit of its existance, but apparently you need to 'look harder' or have you eyes open, whats the point of that? then I will perceive things that would have already happened if I had not asked for proof, and accept them as proof.
Also, if you are *channeling* a spirit through your own body there is pretty much no way for it to prove if it is external unless it physically moves something with telekinisis. Unless you do something like determining say, the colour of someones shirt on the other end of long distance communications...
Think long and hard. Has your 'spirit guide' ever done anything that has really benefited you? Has it ever done anything other then acting like an LSD guru, like say, telling you the winning lottery numbers?

[Rastus]

Is "standing" in front of me having a conversation proof of one of my guides, or a mental condition?  Anger, strong Anger, lowers your vibrations to the point you can't sense your guides, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

[Nagual]

If one of you channeled an angel or a guide right now or whatever, there would be absolutely no way to prove that the guide really exists as an external being.

Really?  Based on what?

Anyone care to convince me otherwise?

I love this one!  Just sit and let the others do the work...
Personally, I don't care to convince you...  

All things can be proved, and they can be proved to everyone, unless of course they do not exist.

Where did you read that...?  Care to prove that all things can be proved?
There are SO MANY THINGS that scientists did observe but cannot understand/explain/prove/etc (yet)...  Maybe one day they will be able; maybe not.

Why would someone/something waste its time/energy for you?
Maybe they have more important things to do...
Maybe you were just dreaming...

[Chimerae]

. . .would not be able to tell me any information about myself  . . .  I really don't see what use they are for. . . Anyone care to convince me otherwise?

Circular logic.

NO TELL: You don't hear.

Don't SEE:  You don't see.

Blinded and deaf coyly you offer to be convinced of sight and sound.



More importantly you ask the real question:  "ANYONE CARE . . .?"  

The real answer is a resounding YES.  Look at the responses you got.  
But you already knew that when you posted.
You just wanted a little stroking . . . to move the ball to the court of your advantage

I have noticed that you're quite good at creating thunder in the lightning of your passing.  Lots of stuff happens around you.  Wouldn't you like to REALLY get in the game?  

Here's a thought for your reflection:  
Open your eyes and take your fingers out of your ears.  
Come on in, the water's fine.

Back at you.

It's the thunder you create . . .

[Nay]

Look at how cute you are aryanknight666... strutting around proudly showing off your tiny little horns.  You're so cute I just wanna squeeze you till your head pops off.  

My four year old does sorta the same thing to get attention, but I'm going to inform him to wear his horns more proudly next time.  It makes for a much better chuckle.


Nay

[Tillibullu]

All things can be proved, and they can be proved to everyone, unless of course they do not exist.

Is that true?  

Do you love your mother?  

Prove it.

Has your 'spirit guide' ever done anything that has really benefited you?

Actually, yes.

Once I was locked out of my house.  I circled three times checking and rechecking windows and doors.  All locked.  I sat down in frustration.  Then the voice of my spirit guide came and said "Check the window behind your bed."  I had already checked it, so I felt silly, but I walked over to that side of the house.

It was OPEN.


Also, last weekend my Spirit Guides were strongly urging me to turn back on a drive I was taking into the city.  I've been on retreat up in the mountains for weeks.  They were really telling me to turn around.  But I was determined to go and visit my friend.  

The first part of the trip was fine.  Roads were clear.  Then I came upon a long stretch of road in horrible condition.  Snow, sleet, ice.  It was the most frightening drive I have ever taken.  I found out later that the road I'd been driving on was officially closed.

Then I got into town and the friend I was visiting was sick the whole time.

If only I had listened.....

Has it ever done anything other then acting like an LSD guru, like say, telling you the winning lottery numbers?

But that is such a 3-d materialist standard of whether or not the spirit guide is useful.  If winning the lottery is not part of your soul purpose, why would the guide bother?  It's not easy communicating between dimensions, there must be a good reason to do so.

Also, lottery numbers are generated by machines.  There is no human consciousness behind them.  This makes them difficult to predict.


aryanknight666, I respect your left-brain sobriety about not just blindly believing.

No point in being believers attached to the love and light paradigm.  Darkness exists.

However, just as there is ignorance in blindly believing, there is ignorance in being too skeptical.  Doubt can be something we hide behind out of fear.

[Shinobi]

...

[Tillibullu]

Shinobi,

Well written.  You make a good point.

The balance is in experiencing both inner knowing and outer proofs.

No matter how great the guru, you still must take responsibility for your own free will choices and remain awake.  Too many want to just fall in line like sheep, because most people do not want to be responsible.

Usually the best state of mind is the one that says, "I know that I do not know".  That beginner's mind....staying fresh and open.

Neither blindly believing nor skeptically disbelieving.

But I have to stress that some kinds of knowing are subjective and cannot be proven in 3d material scientific forums....but they are still legitimate forms of knowing.  They are experiential.

[James S]

I find it interesting when "science" is brought into debates like this.

What exactly has science proven?
Well, a few hundred years ago science proved that the world was flat, and then some years later it proved that the earth was the centre of the universe. It also proved that radio waves were transmitted by something called Ether, and more recently it proved that peanuts cause cancer.
Amazing proof there!

What is science but the orderly arrangement of the facts as we currently understand them.

Science in its purest form is not about proving things, its about understanding things.

When studying those things which is considered beyond the reach of current science, such as spirits, psychic abilities and the astral, perhaps we would do better to not seek proof, but instead seek understanding.

Regards,
James.

[Tillibullu]

As St Augustine said,

"Miracles happen, not in opposition to nature, but in opposition to what we know of nature."

[clandestino]

Great post, Shinobi....as a rational person, I don't believe everything that people tell me. Instead, I look for personal evidence or proof. With respect to the matter at hand (channelling / the paranormal /etc), this proof may be objective or subjective.

Whilst I disagree with Aryanknight's semantics, can I put some words into his mouth?!

"If one of you channeled an angel or a guide right now or whatever, there would be absolutely no scientific way to objectively prove that the guide really exists as an external being, at this moment in time."

Hi James S ! you make a great point that science is only as current as our understanding of the universe, but I feel that the examples you mentioned were not theories, merely hypotheses & as such were never considered as proofs.

On the other hand, science is defined as being the study of the material world, using human reason. It is a tool that can only measure things that can be observed..... So perhaps it has no place in this discussion !!!

Kind regards,
Mark

[You]

Understanding is attained through experience, and thus, you gain knowledge from that experience, making you understand it. Personal science, if you will.

While I do agree things beyond explanation should be given a shot, anyone who hasn't experienced it should definitely not believe in it. Otherwise you lose your objectivity, it gets clouded.

[aryanknight666]

Circular logic.

NO TELL: You don't hear.

Don't SEE: You don't see.

Blinded and deaf coyly you offer to be convinced of sight and sound.



More importantly you ask the real question: "ANYONE CARE . . .?"

The real answer is a resounding YES. Look at the responses you got.
But you already knew that when you posted.
You just wanted a little stroking . . . to move the ball to the court of your advantage

I have noticed that you're quite good at creating thunder in the lightning of your passing. Lots of stuff happens around you. Wouldn't you like to REALLY get in the game?

Here's a thought for your reflection:
Open your eyes and take your fingers out of your ears.
Come on in, the water's fine.

Back at you.

It's the thunder you create . . .

[/b]

I voice my unique opinion, and leave the herd to create the thunder for me.

At least they can rest assured by telling me (really themselves) that its just 'controversy for the sake of controversy' so they can eliminate the possibility that their quaint little belief system or lack there of has actually been disrupted by a different opinion voiced with the intention to actually express a genuine opinion.

Look at how cute you are aryanknight666... strutting around proudly showing off your tiny little horns. You're so cute I just wanna squeeze you till your head pops off.  

My four year old does sorta the same thing to get attention, but I'm going to inform him to wear his horns more proudly next time. It makes for a much better chuckle.


Nay

I think you're really cute too, and I really wouldn't want you hurting your cute little knuckles their punching walls.

Do you love your mother?

Prove it.

That's a nasty thought.

Actually, yes.

Once I was locked out of my house

Locked out of your house? I don't think I want spirit guides proving their existence to me

I find it interesting when "science" is brought into debates like this.

What exactly has science proved?
Well, a few hundred years ago science proved that the world was flat, and then some years later it proved that the earth was the center of the universe. It also proved that radio waves were transmitted by something called Ether, and more recently it proved that peanuts cause cancer.
Amazing proof there!

Science has proved the primitive Christian idea of the earth being center of the universe wrong, and also proved wrong the ignorant dark age belief of the world being flat. Actually, you're right. Science isn't so great. What has it proved? It's only proved enough things for you to actually be able to have a  computer that runs on electricity so you can run the Internet on it and type messages to people about how what science has proved has been useless.

"If one of you channeled an angel or a guide right now or whatever, there would be absolutely no scientific way to objectively prove that the guide really exists as an external being, at this moment in time."

If you consider the spirit telling something to me that the channeler could not possibly know as scientific proof, then perhaps you are correct. But to be correct in the area of terminology it would not be scientific proof but actually just logic, and if logic doesn't apply to anything about these spirits and their wonderful la la land then we get to the 'dragon in my garage' state of things and by that 'logic' I can say that there is a lava hat on my head and it exists, even though you cannot see it, touch it, hear it, smell it, feel it, taste it, and also even though you can run your hands through the area over the top of my hand and clearly see there is nothing solid there or anything giving off heat. It is just there and it just exists because I say it is, and you cannot say 'well you just made that up' because there is no concept of logic here and as such there is no difference to it actually being there and me making it up, it just exists.

I take back that everything can be proved, as well. I cannot prove for example, that the person writing this is the same person who wrote my other posts, I cannot prove that I am male, or that I am even a person and not a bot, I cannot prove that I am who I say I am or anything I say about myself and my identity. Which means that just because one of you says your guide stands there in front of you, there is no way for you to prove that that actually happens and there is no way for me to know if you are lying.

But, I can prove if someone actually has superpowers because they say they do. If they are standing in front of me, and I tell them to use whatever superpowers they claim to have, and after several trials and conditions they cannot do what they say they can do, then I have proved they do not have superpowers.
If someone says that, if you fill a container up half with water, put a floating candle in there and light it, then put the lid on, it will burn out in exactly 6 seconds every time with these conditions, then I can prove them wrong if I actually set up these conditions and after several trials and the time for the candle burning out is not the same every time under those conditions.

[Tayesin]

spirit guides, angels etc are useless.
If one of you channeled an angel or a guide right now or whatever, there would be absolutely no way to prove that the guide really exists as an external being. That guide would not be able to tell me any information about myself, such as my middle name, or what color shirt I am wearing. There is absolutely nothing any of these entities can do to prove they actually externally exist. If asked to do one of these things, they were say that there is no need for them to do that for one reason or another.
I really don't see what use they are for. Anyone care to convince me otherwise?

No point trying to convince a person who has already made up their mind.

[Eol007]

Dear Aryanknight666,

You are not doing yourself any favours. Normally I would have edited/deleted your post, but have chosen to leave it as it is!

Can I suggest as much as you may feel aggrieved that other users may be making digs at you or your opinion that you might consider that you are only enabling them to reflect back to you your own angst.

Whether you believe in Guides, Angels or fallen ones, helpers etc. does not matter a penny fig. Seek the blessing of knowing yourself. Speak to your own soul kindly. The inner guide that is you is there for you if you are ready to pay heed to the call. Open your heart without shame for past actions in this life or any previous incarnation.

You are part of all that is and is not! Seek forgiveness and offer forgiveness. You are LOVED as much as any one else here and deserve peace of mind with what is troubling you at this time.

No one here is really judging you - as you are the only one that can go through that process and will come out the eye of the needle reborn. Many of us here have had our own 'dark nights of the soul' - we recognise in you that these are dark days indeed for you.

If you need healing all you have to do is ask!

We send you only but love. Awaken and remember who you truly are!

Peace be with you,


Stephen  

[Rastus]

AK,

Even in the Darkness you advance the cause of Light.  In decrying something you doubt with your eyes, you in fact bring it strongly into the light.  See who and what supports higher entities, and who decries them, you have strongly influenced many minds on this site, but not the way the post was obviously intended (and what does that imply???, you catch more flies with vinegar than honey)

Yes I'm Judging, myself for offering a counter opinion, myself for wanting all my brothers/sisters to awaken NOW and not later.  But I'm also twisting the energies for those still asleep or just awakening.  It's what 'I Do'.  Home is now here, wake up an RE-MEMBER!

Thank You
-Namaste

[Chimerae]

Dear Aryanknight666,

Normally I would have edited/deleted your post, but have chosen to leave it as it is!

Can I suggest as much as you may feel aggrieved that other users may be making digs at you or your opinion that you might consider that you are only enabling them to reflect back to you your own angst.


Stephen  

Stephen,

I find AK's posts generous, even if they are not necessarily benevolent.  He metaphorically tosses the cat in among the pigeons, but the crap he stirs up was already there.  

What I find interesting is that he's not just ignored as he would be if there wasn't a significant person behind the antics.  There's solid stuff there, and people respond.  Good things float to the surface almost in spite of the opening salvo.  

It's almost like there's a need for a Warrior Society, where everybody climbs into the arena and takes the gloves off to really bash heads, no holds barred.  Some people get at what's real and true that only that way because they get distracted by the chaff otherwise.  

I'm not saying that belongs on Astral Pulse, it's just that there's a need for it and it has a certain legitimacy as a tool of evolution.  

I studied with a Native American shaman who really needed that for himself.  His development was crippled until he found a circle of people where etherically bashing heads and slipping in stilettos was just friendly conversation.  

I don't even want to WATCH if AK ever finds a place like that, but there are a fair number of people I know who would transform if they had any venue like that.   And a referee to call Time Out periodically.

Know of anything of the sort?

[Eol007]

Hi Chimerae,

I appreciate what you are saying and I respect that challenge = opportunity for growth! How we rise to the challenge is another kettle of fish. As you know difficult life lessons get repeated until their truthful significance sinks in.

I would like to get back to on this one later and attempt to qualify (at least in part) as best I can the content of my previous post.

Aryanknight666,

Hope you do not think my approach towards you as facetious?

The thoughts were inspired and I hope that they have value for you! But to repeat myself: I would admit that they do require qualification on my part or at least follow on analysis in terms of the source of inspiration (if that is what it was). It may have been an ego response, although I do tend to question inspired thought (often) regardless! Perhaps if further developed this may lend weight to the original context of this discussion...  as you raise important questions regarding the source of guidance etc.

Best,


Stephen

[Tillibullu]

AK666 raises a very legitimate point about the difficulty of "proving" the existence of spirit guides.  We all know it is legitimate, and that's why it makes us react so.  Because we are frustrated at the difficulty of translating our experience into the 3d logical linear time paradigm.

And this is a serious issue because the fact that the existence of guides is not easy to prove in the materialist, rational, logical, scientific realm makes them easy fodder for exploitation.

Witness John Edward.  Sure, maybe he has a level of psychic ability, but he is a con artist for real, yo.  And we should rally against people like him.

The problem in our world today is we get caught up in these polarized debates.  I don't see AK666 as wrong and myself as right.  We both have pieces of the puzzle, and the synthesis of our observations will lead us closer to truth.

What underlies debates like these is the difference of left-brained and right-brained, yang and yin approaches to knowing and experiencing.  Our modern world is very much a left-brained, masculine yang paradigm and disrespects other ways of knowing.

Yes, this logical rational approach is excellent within its narrow range of experience....within the 3d material world of technology and linear time.
It has brought about a great deal of technological advancement (which is a mixed bag, but we are ALL benefiting from the Internet, for example...even though it might be mere training wheels until we become telepathic, but that's another story).

But there is no need to censor someone who is attached to that paradigm!  Are we that weak that we cannot stand some debate?  Hell no.  The truth of what we are observing and experiencing with our spirit guides is available for those who are willing to open to it.  

Let's remember, awakening is a scary thing, it breaks your brains, it destroys all kinds of attachments to a certain paradigm within which you were raised and within which your network of human contacts exist.  It's not something that can be forced onto someone.  As much as it is a blessing it can be a curse, so let's not force it on anyone.  We should know better y'all.

15 years ago I would argue my butt off with people who believed in this "stuff".  I had been really well trained in the modern world, secular, linear time, "Authority's-word-is-more-valid-than-your-own-direct-experience" paradigm.  Trained to believe what I had heard rather than believing what I see.

And yet lo and behold, I ended up being a shamanic initiate and channel for spirit world.

Plant a seed, and then remain unattached to when and if it grows.....
and then at a certain point recognize that some areas are just rocky ground which will never become fertile.

But there's no need to get upset.....if you know your truth, then be patient and it will be revealed to anyone who is ready.

P.S. This is making me think of a beautiful work by Wilhelm Reich, a book called Listen, Little Man.  It's wonderful reading about the ways in which humans pathologically bow to outside authority.

[Eol007]

...
If you cannot deal with dissenters then you are a CULT.

Appreciate your points, but respect that you may be basing your opinion on an edited version (by parties unknown) of Aryanknight666 previous post!

As I did not save a copy of the original version please consider that the context of my response is now totally lost!

Kind thoughts,



Stephen

[Frank]

Stephen:

I edited the post of profanities, must have been at the very same time you were composing your reply to it, as your reply was definitely not present at the time of my editing. If I have caused you confusion and/or embarrasement then I sincerely apologise.

Could I also use this post as an opportunity to make clear to the membership, that your responses must be in accordance with our published Acceptable Use Policy. Virtually all of you realise this, I know, but we still have a few members who think this policy does not apply to them.

Yours,
Frank

[Eol007]

Stephen:

I edited the post of profanities, must have been at the very same time you were composing your reply to it, as your reply was definitely not present at the time of my editing. If I have caused you confusion and/or embarrasement then I sincerely apologise.

Hi Frank,

No need to appologise... I assumed that was the case.

Best,


Stephen