New article

[Xetrov]

Hi AP'ers.

As some might know or might not know, I wrote a (pretty controversial and confusing) article a wile ago, with my alternative ideas on OBE/AP. After a lot of good discussion on this forum from which I learned a lot, and even more research (and even some more first hand experiences), I came to rewrite my initial article.

Any of you who might be still interested to read it, get it here:

http://home.wanadoo.nl/xetrov/obenew.doc


Its a total rewrite, I used terms and definitions that we all understand, and I included most if not all of the arguments we had in the previous thread.

Well if you do read it, let me know what you think of it and if it's any good

[Vincent]

Mmm have to read it yet!
Was still reading your old topic with all its posts.

Vincent

[Tombo]

Wow! Xetrov, you seem to invest quite some time into this.
I must say I find this article much more agreeable then your last one.  I think we all learned quite a bit in the course our intense discussion. Nevertheless, I hope for somebody to argue against you this time as well, I won't do it though.
I hope you stick around the forums, cause I appreciate your way of thinking.

See you, Tom

[catmeow]

Hi Xetrov

I liked the tone of your new article, and am pleased you included some of the ideas that I raised in the earlier thread.  I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree.  Whilst you see LD and OBE as equivalent to each other, and NDE as a different phenomenon, I see them as related experiences.

There is no way of proving one way or the other which of us is correct.  

I do disagree with the following statement:

I am rather convinced though that it is not possible to split up the spirit into several parts (or "bodies"), whereby one of them has the OBE and the other has a normal or lucid dream. Consciousness (and indeed the body-spirit system generating our consciousness also) is an integrated whole and not dividable into different parts that seem to lose connection to each other, as Bruce says.

I actually suspect that this is exactly what happens!  One copy of consciousness remains with the physical body and has a LD while another copy of consciosness moves away from the physical body and has the OBE.  When the OBE consciousness returns and merges back with the LD consciousness, the OBE memories must successfully take priority over the LD memories for us to remember the OBE.  Of course I'm not sure about this, it's just a theory.  But quite a good one.

Now, OBE consciousness would not need to rely upon a functioning visual cortex, whereas LD consciousness perhaps does rely on the visual cortex, as you suggest.  During NDE there is no LD consciousness, since the physical brain is not working, so here we have just the OBE consciousness.  If we successfully manage to download the OBE memory back into physical consciousness, then we remember the NDE.  Otherwise we do not.

In the world of computer programming there is the idea of "forking" a running computer "process".  When this happens the running process splits and generates an exact copy of itself, which inherits all the memory and environment of the "original" process.  Both processes then continue to run and neither process can distinguish whether it was the original process or not.  This is exactly the same as RB's "mind-split" idea, and I wonder if he took the idea from the world of computer programming.

But it's a very well understood idea, and I don't see why it can't apply to the conscious mind.  Seems a perfect fit to me...

catmeow

[Xetrov]

Hey Catmeow.

Ofcourse we agree that we can disagree! That's why im gonne respond to your critique with a small remark

You quoted me on saying that the spirit-consciousness system (or whatever it is and what you wanna call it) is not dividable. You omitted however the part that followed:

splitting consciousness (so, the mind, not the spirit) is possible, but when you do this all parts of consciousness stay linked together (it stays integrated as one whole), so what actually happens is that we are expanding our consciousness beyond its ordinary physical boundaries

You see, what you talk about, and what I talk about, is the splitting of consciousness, which is not the same as dividing our astral essence or spirit in 2 or more parts (which is what Bruce says). I stated that the copies of consciousness stay linked together, which I still hold is true, but it is possible however that we are not aware of this when we are experiencing it. The point still stands, consciousness can be expanded and split, but consciousness isnt the same as astral matter. So that's why I say that the experience where you seem to loose contact between the split parts is caused by distortion, caused by the fact that you are not in a normal state of being. I said this before but consider the fact that during dreams (also during trances), false memories, time distortion, etc are possible, also that certain chemicals could play a role in suppressing mental faculties, and this is a high probability. To quote you, of course I'm not sure about this, it's just a theory. But quite a good one too!

So, although splitting/expanding of consciousness seems possible to both of us (without going into too much detail how and what etc, that would be another new discussion), if OBE consciousness does not rely on visual cortex abilities as you claim, how do you explain:

Would it be coincidence that when people's visual center (visual cortex) in the brain is active, during RB-type OBE, they can influence the astral by thought? Like, just as what happens in dreams... ?

Add to that the fact  that it seems that in NDE (no visual cortex) people seem to be unable to influence the astral, at least not in the same way as during RB type-OBE.


Pretty much coincidentally isnt it? I don't think so, to me this is a clear correlation.


Well so far, perhaps someone would like to comment on this, however tomorrow I'm off for a vacation (3 weeks to Cuba), so I wont be here for some time. I'll check back in here when I get back though

Happy dreaming everyone.