Proving God to a Skeptic

[You]

Billy "How do I know there's a god, father?"
Father "The bible tells us so."
Billy "Why should I believe the Holy Bible?"
Priest "It is divinely inspired."
Billy "How do I know it was divinely inspired?"
Priest "The bible says so."

On a related note: you don't need instant teleportation or object manifestation to be Santa, that goes against all the folklore. You need many many elves, hidden in the 'North Pole' (I assume some other-dimensional astral fortress), the ability to make Reindeer fly, the ability to control time, the ability to reshape your body to fit through chimneys, and the ability to digest amazing amounts of cookies and milk, although actually I think the time control thing would cover that, though it could cause some health problems. Imagine eating nothing but cookies and milk for a month, which is at least how long it would take him to do it with time frozen.

[Nostic]

On a related note: you don't need instant teleportation or object manifestation to be Santa, that goes against all the folklore. You need many many elves, hidden in the 'North Pole' (I assume some other-dimensional astral fortress), the ability to make Reindeer fly, the ability to control time, the ability to reshape your body to fit through chimneys, and the ability to digest amazing amounts of cookies and milk, although actually I think the time control thing would cover that, though it could cause some health problems. Imagine eating nothing but cookies and milk for a month, which is at least how long it would take him to do it with time frozen.

So, what's the problem??

[markulous]

Well Santa obviously doesn't exist.  Even if he did our parents admit that they put those presents down there and we see them in the closets, etc.

The Dali Lama has talked about faith.  And that if you base your faith on things that you have not experienced then your faith wavers and you really don't have any.  If you have experienced God or have prayed to Jesus and he has answered then no one can convince you otherwise.  However if you just base them from other people saying so or from a book that you read your really not going to know.

So basically what I am saying is the person really has to be open minded and make an attempt to look for God.  If you become stubborn and closed minded(maybe not on a conscious level but subconsciously) you'll never believe in God or be able to experience Him.

[You]

If I prayed to Jesus and thought I received some kind of reply, that would not be proof for me. The human mind is fallible, even mine. Humans are humans after all, not divine, so how can we verify what is divine and what is illusion? It is a faulty principal, having such subservience and yet the arrogance to dictate that we perceive he whom we serve, so perfectly.

[MindFreak]

I just thought I would throw in my two cents.

I personally see no reason to believe in a god. Nothing in my everyday existence would make me think that there was such a being and I am certainly not going to believe something just because it is a common belief. If nothing in your own experience leads you to believe in this supreme being, then why take another persons word for it? Believing in God out of blind faith is ignorant. Believing in anything out of blind faith is ignorant. Why not believe in Allah? or Zeus? Beliefs should come from one's own judgement, not blind faith.
Of course there is as much proof for the existence of god as there is for the absence of god so no one can say for sure.

Also, if god is this supreme, compassionate being, where is he? So many innocent people suffer all the time. Where's god?

These are just my thoughts, I mean no offense to those who believe in god.

[beavis]

Of course there is as much proof for the existence of god as there is for the absence of god so no one can say for sure.

Theres just as much proof for the existence of little green leprechauns with double-pointed vampire teeth as for their nonexistence.

Same kind of statement, so based only on that reason, god is equally likely to exist as those leprechauns.

My $10 says the leprechauns exist instead of god. Who wants to gamble?

[MindFreak]

Maybe god is a leprechaun

[markulous]

When it comes down to it if someone really does NOT want to believe in God there really isn't any way to prove it.

For me I have felt God.  And it's really the only explanation that I see(to me).  How everything works in perfect harmony.  How are brains work.  And not to mention everything I have seen astral projecting(and the fact that I am able to do it).  I don't see how all that could be created from gas's and what not.

But it depends on your definition of God.  If you imagine some old white guy with a beard sitting up on a cloud seeing everything, then that might be the reason you can't believe in him.  We can't have a fixed image of him.  And when you think about it if he is so powerful and perfect how can we even conceive what he is?  Or talk about what he is like?  It's like sheep trying to describe another sheep what we look like and how our emotions are.  The capabilities just aren't there.

Oh, BTW, to MindFreak.  Allah is actually the same as God.  So is Jehovah.  And I can't remember the Jewish name for him but it's all the same God.  Basically all major religions worship the same God, they just bicker about the small stuff.

[MindFreak]

I agree it depends on your definition of the word god. Many christians do see him as a "he" and a being separate from ourselves. Some equate god with the absolute, the unmade, the unconditioned.

As for the god of the OT I could never believe in him because the OT is just an altered form of older polytheistic myths.

Also, not everyone would agree with you that they all worship the same god.

[Gandalf]

Basically all major religions worship the same God, they just bicker about the small stuff.

the problem here is that this comes across as a bit monotheistic-centric view. in that you are really only refering to the three middle-eastern originated monotheistic faiths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. They are all variations of each other.

however these do not represent all the worlds faiths. What about Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufism, Sikhism, Taosim, Shintoism, never mind all the smaller faith froups like natve american, neo-pagans etc.

Although you are right *from an outside objective viewpoint*  in that all the three varients of the monotheistic faiths worship and recognise the same god,
however the woshippers of these three varients of monotheism do not really recognise the validity of each others religious practice, and in many cases even view the other's god as 'not their god'.

eg all accept the 'God' figure but many disagree about his characteristics. and Judaism does not accept jesus as son of /part of god, and christianity thinks judaism should convert to the 'updated' version. Actually islam is the most inclusive believe it or not, as it accepts the validity of both judaism and christianity (apart from the divinity of jesus), although naturally it believes that it is the latest version and therefore the correct one and encourages everyone to convert to itself.

Also although the monotheistic version of god is meant to be non-gender specific (or is that a pc name for a transvestite!) and to be non culture specific, in reality it is quite clear that perceptions of god are very much based on cultural perceptions. The islamic conception of god is very eastern, very arabic. christianity and esp. jesus is so blue eyed and aryan its unbelievable how he is portrayed in some churches. As for the genderless concept, although god is 'in theory' genderless, in reality this is completely untrue. There is absolutely no doubt about it, god is conceived of as being male, even if you dont realise your doing it most of the time.

Try it yourself, how long will it be before you say 'he' or 'him' when refering to god. now you can say this is just convention, i have heard this excuse before, but its far more than that in reality, the use of 'he' and him' psychologically means non other than your inbuilt conception of god is male. For example, just try using the female terminology instead, your mind doesnt like it, even although its the same difference, but you are just trained to conceive of god as male. The islamic god is perhaps the most male of them all. i dont think it is possible after all this time to ever drop the 'maleness' of the term 'god'; its been ingrained for far too long. You will notice many believers who will deny the 'maleness' of god, but this is due to the fact that they are SO used to thinking of god this way, they cant even see it!
It is no suprise that there is such a rise in neo-paganism, wicca and interest in hinduism and so on, as many people now, especially women, just dont connect with this male-centred view of divinity; they see this skewed vision, to the bewilderment of the devout who do not appear to understand what the fuss is about. However, once you become aware of this maleness, it is very difficult to see past it, and you do wish for a more gender balanced version that actually appeals to women directly, as well as men.


Doug

[markulous]

Well I didn't include Buddhism, Taoism, and Hinduism, etc., because IMO they aren't really religions per se but philosophies.

Yeah I was thinking about that not to long ago about how God is classified always as He and how from seeing/hearing that it's brainwashed into our heads.  For lack of a better pronoun I think referring to God as a He is okay as long as one doesn't create a fixed image of a male deity.  Because having that one tiny little fixed image of God creates a person to want to completely define God and make him static.  Then that's how we get all of this bigotry and hypocrisy saying what God is or isn't and how everyone needs to look at God this one "correct" way.

I believe in God and in Christ.  But I don't consider myself a Christian.  But I don't condemn people that don't have my same viewpoint, because my viewpoint is kind of skewed as it is.  I think if everyone religious or no was tolerant of everyone elses beliefs that it would be not an impossible thing to prove God to an atheist.  

A lot of times(I am not saying all or anything like that) people disbelieve in God because of how he is represented.  It's like if I was born into this family that were very bad people but went to church and tried to cram church down my throat my immediate reaction would be to pull away.  And I would have these twisted images of who/what God really is.  Anyway I am rambling I am very tired!

[Gandalf]

I agree with you ,but the idea of 'just using 'he' as a convention but not thinking of him as 'he'  doesnt, in my view, actually work, as your everyday conception of god, providing you dont stop to think about it to much, is going to be male. I actually think that those who say they dont conceive of god as male most of the time are deceiving themselves. I think from a psychological view its pretty much impossible not to. Sure you can say that god isnt male, and this is fine in theory but what about the reality.

As for Hinduism and other forms of faith, I WOULD classify them as religions, but religions that place a high emphases on philosophy. But thats my view. I dont view religion as being only a faith system which believes in one monotheistic creator. Go to India. There you wil find that there is FAR more to hinduism than mere 'philosophies'. It is very much a full on religion, with many different aspects, not just the philosophic aspect that westerners think they are familiar with. In fact religion plays far higher a factor in peoples lives than in the west; it permeates everything. In fact to even make a distinction between everyday life and religious lfe is mistaken, they are one and the same over there.

[MindFreak]

IMO they are all religions, but it depends on how you define religion.
An (allegedly) enlightened monk said this:
"'Religion' is merely a word that we use to label the teachings of a person who is considered to understand the truth or nature of human life. Such teachings are various."

[Tom]

What if it can be arranged for someone who does not believe in God to have to say "What was this experience I just had?" and to have the answer to this be "God."? Can this be done, so that the talking can follow the showing instead of replacing it?

[MindFreak]

can you arrange that?

[beavis]

I am a body plus a spirit. I understand little about how a spirit works, and a little more about how brains work. The things some feel and label as "god" do correspond to some inputs to body and spirit (so I understand why they say its god), but I think body+spirit cant tell the difference between a real god and a powerful entity pretending to be god, and many would pretend to be god. I'm sure there are some who would fool others to think they're god for fun. I would. Even if I experience things that others would call god, I dont trust any of my parts to determine if it really is god. I'd need more direct knowledge about god to think god exists. Until then, I think gods like the christian god dont exist, and gods like in buddhism might exist, or something weirder than both might exist.