why you will never OOB

[MartyD]

I used this preset:

http://www.bwgen.com/presets/deepmind4.bwg

Deep Mind IV it's called seems to do the trick. I've only been using the program for five or six days now and, again, last night I managed to get the vibes a second time. Also, interestingly, I haven't really paid much attention to quieting the mind, but i've found that after using this for almost a week I can keep my mind thought free for at least a minute.

Before I couldn't hold it for five seconds.

-Martin-

[josemi]

i used a megabrain brand brainstorm to induce alpha theta and delta waves, and i gave it up because it made me feel sick, and with nuisances in the stomach. have you ever felt nuisances or some kind of sickness using tapes in order to bring down brain waves?
i agree with napoleon on a thing: i believe that there is a minority of people who have a capacity to project and there are a majority who doesnt. ive worked hard for months dedicating hours and hours of meditation and energy work (even with symbols of reiki) and i havent got anything. just some times to get my body numbed, and nothing else.

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone,

I deemed this important enough to consult Robert Bruce for hos opinions. Robert is truly an expert at these things through many years of dedication.

Brian, who Robert refers to, is Robert's co-author for his forthcoming new Astral/OBE book.  Here is what Robert says:

"First and foremost, these percentages appear to have been drawn from a very
small sample of the population, and are admittedly 'small studies'.  More
research would most definitely be required before these stated percentages
could be used to pose more than a hypothetical argument.  However, if the
research has some merit and only 35% of the population are capable of theta
and obe, that is quite a high average in itself.  But the 65% who have
strong natural resistance to theta and OBE can still, I think, train their
brains to be more flexible.  Once trained, they would be more susceptible to
artificial trance inducing aids.  I have never come across any person who,
if they worked at it in the long term, could not accomplish full theta
trance and OBE. They might have to work at this for much longer than the
lucky 35%, but it can be done.  Brian, my coauthor, is a shining example of
this. Brian is probably one of the 65%, but he has really worked at it and
has for some time been succeeding at OBE, LD, and even WILD."

I hope this helps people out this into perspective.

This re-nforces my own view that people are born with, or have developed, distinct differences in the way both hemi-spheres of the brain work together - the more they work together, the deeper theta obtainable in general terms. That being the case, the brain can be trained to work optimally, but it will take some time and effort. The effort is well worthwhile.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Adrian]

Greetings MartyD!

quote:Originally posted by MartyD:
I used this preset:

http://www.bwgen.com/presets/deepmind4.bwg

Deep Mind IV it's called seems to do the trick. I've only been using the program for five or six days now and, again, last night I managed to get the vibes a second time. Also, interestingly, I haven't really paid much attention to quieting the mind, but i've found that after using this for almost a week I can keep my mind thought free for at least a minute.

Before I couldn't hold it for five seconds.

Thanks very much for your most useful information, and well done on the development.

I am sure that BWGEN has alot going for it, so I am going to start another topic in the Astral Consciousness forum.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Tom]

Alpha waves are common. Close your eyes and you will have them, generally. The state of mind they are associated with is relaxed and yet alert, but not lost in thought or activity like the beta of most waking life. It can have bursts of theta and usually does when it is continued for some time. Zen meditation is usually done with the eyes open, and over time they develop alpha frequencies with the eyes open. It is more important that the alpha waves develop over several areas at once and that the left and right hemispheres becomes synchronized. Theta is deeper and slower than alpha. It is more introspective. It has a greater degree of imagery. It is here that spontaneous imagery, such as hypnagogic imagery, is allowed to develop. This is highly unusual for me. I tend to sit in the alpha no matter how deeply I relax. Either that or I fall asleep. Hypnagogic imagery is highly unusual to me.

[napoleon]

In 1970s and 1980s there was a growing popularity of mind machines, extraordinary tapes and so forth.
The designers/producers of these wonders claimed that their devices would help you with easy and effortless OOB, remote viewing, learn 100 or 500 foreign words within one session and so forth.
There were statements that such tapes and machines will be in every school so the kids will become super-students - relax in 10 minutes and 500 words learned within next 20 minutes. I was convinced and enthiusiastic.
Thirty years passed and there is less mind machines and tapes than it was before. Few schools used the tapes, few individuals exoerienced OOB and even fewer developed Remote Viewing but thousands paid their hard earned money for keeping the hope alive.
Ever wonder why it happened as it happened ?

There are folks who tried 100 or 200 times with various CDs and tapes and nothing really happened, except some mediocre sensations.  I have better sensations after beer,

I am not saying that all the tapes / mind machines are wothless, probably not.
But I wish that instead of some very general and vague claims they would say the following:
"- Out of 100 folks who listened to my tape 80 reached the theta state and therefore I named it "The Theta Tape"
But no, they are very quiet, it is safer for them from economical point of view to say: just listen to our tape one time or few times and you get "IT".
Eventually if you don't get it after 100 times you can  try 100 more times ... or buy another tape
And the best hit is to have a "feedback" on the front page from someone who was successul with such tape. Then if you are not successul you blame yourself instead of the producer. You think why he got something and not you, it must be something wrong with you, you are the failer and other crap. Just stop and think: maybe not you but this product is crap.
If they this product is so effective why they have the "feedback" from somebody signed with initials instead of the results of a research ?

(Sorry for my poor English, I hope you understand)

I wish you an easy OOBs or prolific astral sex.  
Whatever.
Jan

ps.
I am not trying to destroy your hope. Hold it tight and have luck but don't be fooled. That's all folks.




Jan

[MartyD]

Well maybe you're not trying but for those who haven't projected i'm sure you doing a pretty good job!

[Jacara]

Tom:

quote:Zen meditation is usually done with the eyes open, and over time they develop alpha frequencies with the eyes open.

It's actually much easier for me to "picture" something with my eyes open, I've always assumed that this was unusual because people always say to "Close your eyes and imagine..."
The standing meditation I like to do is an eyes-open one, too.
Maybe I should just start from there; who says I have to have my eyes open for meditation / projection?

quote:I tend to sit in the alpha no matter how deeply I relax. Either that or I fall asleep. Hypnagogic imagery is highly unusual to me.

Ditto.
I guess I'll have to try to be one of the "65%".  Not that I necessarily believe that number or that it's as hard to train the brain as some may think.

[Tom]

I think most of us are doing our projection exercises with closed eyes. We are not picturing or trying to see anything, either. Most of the techniques discussed here seem to focus on creating and recreating tactile sensations, just as with the NEW system. Closing the eyes causes alpha waves to be produced. Excessive thinking can keep the brain stuck in beta waves, but that is easy enough to avoid. Going to theta seems to be a sort of letting go, just as going to alpha requires letting go of quite so much thinking. Exactly what must be let go of and how awareness is to be sustained is unknown to me. The silva mind control system, which speaks of alpha and theta, seems to suggest it is just a matter of practice.

[astralc]

What if the frequency of the brain has nothing to do with astral projection? What if it were some other factor?

The masters all trained for many years to be able to achieve these trance states, what if they used methods other than deep brain relaxation? What do successful 'travellers' do that is not just relaxation?

I suspect that astral travel and OOB involves increasing ones chi or kundalini, raising ones vibrations to a higher level. Does that mean that their brain emitts theta and delta frequencies or does that involve beta and alpha or a mixture? What if it involves increasing chi to the chakras instead? I just don't know.

Astralc

"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
www.shoal.net.au/~astralc
"The marriage of the ancient arts of astrology, taoism, tantra and the modern science of psychology."

[Frank]

quote:
There were statements that such tapes and machines will be in every school so the kids will become super-students - relax in 10 minutes and 500 words learned within next 20 minutes. I was convinced and enthiusiastic.
Thirty years passed and there is less mind machines and tapes than it was before. Few schools used the tapes, few individuals exoerienced OOB and even fewer developed Remote Viewing but thousands paid their hard earned money for keeping the hope alive.

Ever wonder why it happened as it happened ?

Er, because the advertising was a load of hype and a perfect demonstration of where something that might work fairly well in controlled conditions in a laboratory, can completely fall flat on its face when confronted with real-world conditions?

Yours,
Frank

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone!

quote:Originally posted by astralc:
What if the frequency of the brain has nothing to do with astral projection? What if it were some other factor?

The masters all trained for many years to be able to achieve these trance states, what if they used methods other than deep brain relaxation? What do successful 'travellers' do that is not just relaxation?

I suspect that astral travel and OOB involves increasing ones chi or kundalini, raising ones vibrations to a higher level. Does that mean that their brain emitts theta and delta frequencies or does that involve beta and alpha or a mixture? What if it involves increasing chi to the chakras instead? I just don't know.

One of the most important aspects of projection is the "body asleep" state, so that consciousness can dissociate from the  physical body. This is the process that occurs naturally every night during sleep, but in Astral projection we need to keep the mind awake to take control.

Please note, that it is the body that is relaxed, and not the brain which needs to have full control over the situation.

There is little doubt that vital energy and vibrations can have a big effect on the projection of conscsiousness and subsequent control and memory, but the pre-requisite trance state comes before these in the sequence I think.

[Lysear]

Hi everyone, I dont aggree with what napolean says either, i mean if we project every night theres bound to be a way to do it conciously!

however it seems that napolean is being lynched slightly! he has made a series of valid comments. Surely the purpose of this forum is to provide a discussion area for projection and related topics, therefore comments such as those by Napolean can only improve our understanding of the subject matter? am I right, if you think differently please tell me because I'd like to hear your opinions

             Lysear

[Tom]

Of course Napolean is getting a negative reaction. The only thing worse here than saying 65% of the population can't learn astral projection is to say that it can't be done by anyone. I haven't learned to project yet, so I am watching this to see how to go from being in the 65% to joining the other 35%. That was accepted as a possibility, you know. That is a bit like saying instead that everyone can learn to project but first 65% of us might have to work at it to develop brainwave frequencies below the alpha range.

[napoleon]

Hey folks, I am not expecting that everyone will agree or disagree with me.
I excpect that we can talk about some things. If you don't like what I am sharing with you - just don't read it. That's simple, right ?
But if you find something interesting on these topics please share with me and others here on the forum.
The importance of alpha and the switch into theta is the crucial one in OOBE, hypnosis, self-hypnosis, Silva Mind Control, and many others.
Theta activity and its strength during rest is strongly and positively related to hypnotic susceptibility, flexibility of the brain and is the most consistent EEG correlate of experiencing extraordinary states , incl. OOBEs.
Several studies have reexamined these relationships based on rigorous subject screening and control, along with enhanced recording and analytic techniques.  Several researchers , Cutcomb, Crawford, and Pribram (1990) found highly hypnotizable persons to generate substantially more theta during rest than did low hypnotizable subjects during resting baseline.
The position which is most supported in the contemporary literature is a consistent pattern of EEG activity which can differentiate individuals according to their brainwaves scores.

This baseline individual difference is an important neuropsychophysiological indicator of hypnotizability and flexibility of the brain.





Jan

[napoleon]

Hey folks, I am not expecting that everyone will agree or disagree with me.
I excpect that we can talk about some things. If you don't like what I am sharing with you - just don't read it. That's simple, right ?
But if you find something interesting on these topics please share with me and others here on the forum.
The importance of alpha and the switch into theta is the crucial one in OOBE, hypnosis, self-hypnosis, Silva Mind Control, and many others.
Theta activity and its strength during rest is strongly and positively related to hypnotic susceptibility, flexibility of the brain and is the most consistent EEG correlate of experiencing extraordinary states , incl. OOBEs.
Several studies have reexamined these relationships based on rigorous subject screening and control, along with enhanced recording and analytic techniques.  Several researchers , Cutcomb, Crawford, and Pribram (1990) found highly hypnotizable persons to generate substantially more theta during rest than did low hypnotizable subjects during resting baseline.
The position which is most supported in the contemporary literature is a consistent pattern of EEG activity which can differentiate individuals according to their brainwaves scores.

This baseline individual difference is an important neuropsychophysiological indicator of hypnotizability and flexibility of the brain.





Jan

[Adrian]

Greetings Napolean!

This is all very well and good, but these are just random samples.

Everyone will have different initial brainwave characteristics to start with, due e.g to lifestyle, and particularly sodium/pottasioum levels in the brain. Also such things as caffeine intake, smoking, alcohol and numerous other things will make a difference from person to person.

However, people can alter their base brainwave level by addressing the above factors, and also by meditation, use of e.g. BWGEN etc..

Robert Bruce tells me that hs has never known anyone fail to OBE sooner or later with practice and dedication.

Please watch what you are dogmatically claiming here - it is only a fraction of the complete truth, and it might discourage people unecessarily. The fact is, taking a snapshot from the street, as opposed to a long term Astral projection training are two entirely different things.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[napoleon]

Hello Adrian,

What I am expecting from you guys is some documented research, some checked results and so forth. Rather than: I don't believe you, you are destroying my hopes, you are dogmatic, and so forth. Hey, calm down a little bit. I am not a researcher, not a scientist, so no need to feel threatened by what I am saying.

Adrian wrote about "iinitial brainwave characteristics to start with, due e.g to lifestyle, and particularly sodium/pottasioum levels in the brain."
But I am not talking about initial brainwave characteristic but about something much more stronger and more stable and called The Brainware Signature.
Each of us has his own unique BRAINWAVE SIGNATURE - and this is not based on a "snapshot from the street" as Adrian described but on very long research done by Anna Wise. She is probably one of the top experts in the world on EEG, brainwaves and altered states of mind. There is her book on www.amazon.com and is FASCINATING to read
(details about brainwaves, trainings,
brainwaves during OOBs,
brainwaves during samadhi states or religion extasy,
Zen monks' brainwaves,
catholic priests' brainwaves during prayer,
brainwaves of a kid who could see ghosts
and so forth)

What I understand by saying that the 65 % (or so) of population will never experience OOB is this:  I assume that some small percentage from this group after the 300th attempt can get some results.
The rest of the folks in this group maybe will need 600 attempts before experiencing any results. So, from this point of view one can say that majority of people can experience "something".
But this is just a speculation from me. This is like saying: almost everybody can learn play piano but only very few will become real artists.

You see, the vast majority of designers/producers of the mind machines and tapes didn't bother to do any research, not even a damn "snapshot from the street." That's the problem, at least for the few of us.

Wishing you well
Jan





Jan

[Tom]

Hi, Napoleon, this time I will speak directly to you instead of about you. What most people here are forgetting is that we are not just a random sampling of a large population. The majority of people will not even try to learn astral projection. We have selected ourselves from that larger population, and so the numbers like 65% and 35% do not apply to us when those numbers are about the larger population group we come from. Even so, many of us still feel threatened by the idea because of doubts we carry about our own abilities. The ability to choose to try means we are more likely than average to be in the 35%. I am admitting that I am in the 65%. It is not a new admission, given that I have been trying since 1988. Somehow I am doing something wrong. What I want to know is this: what advice do you have for people like me to learn astral projection? Or, almost as good, is there something that people like me might be able to do better with alpha than the other 35% can do?

[napoleon]

Hello Tom,

You wrote:
"I am admitting that I am in the 65%. It is not a new admission, given that I have been trying since 1988. "

Well, I have been trying since 1990 ... and I am definitely in 65 % group, I have checked it on my EEG.

You wrote:
"Somehow I am doing something wrong."

In my opinion you doing fine, you need just help, the right help for those with rigid brainwaves and/or too strong alpha.


You:
"is there something that people like me might be able to do better with alpha than the other 35% can do?"

Definitely yes.
You can have strong alpha and try to strengthen theta in the same time. Your theta will PROBABLY never surpass your alpha but ... but if you have strong alpha + weaker theta (both synchronous) you can access the Zen monks meditative state, you can do self-healing or even try healing others.
After longer practice it can lead you toward astral realms in deep sense of these words. However the path is quite long.  To speed up this process you should either buy tapes with alpha freq. or get the brainwave generator and design the session yourself. Get the alpha synchronous first. Then add theta and run the two freq. simultanously. The problem with majority of tapes is: they go either directly or very quickly into theta. This is not for folks like me and you. We need a gradual approach, step by step, first higher alpha, then mid alpha, then deeper alpha and so forth.
Remember,
We are not the "fast-lane drivers" into the astral realm  as are those with stronger theta.

There are also other techniques, specifically design for those with rigid brainwaves/strong alpha. But I will not tell them as I don't want to fire all my ammo in the first exchange of fire

In my opinion you should first do some research on brainwaves, get some books, and the right tapes/eqipment and start. But again, small stapes and not a jump into very deeeep frequencies - which although are very attractive will bring you NO RESULTS for many many years.

If you have EEG just check what is your dominant frequency. Probably is about 10 herz....
Then get tape with this freq. or design your own program using this req.
Your brain will become familiar with this state and with sinchronisation. Then lower the treshold to 9.5 herz, experiment with this for a while, get familiar.
After time go to 9 herz or 8.5 - here you will experience nice body sensation or some visuals. Then add weak theta and let your brain get familiar with it.
With training you will be able to increase the theta...gradually while having alpha too.
With the very gradual strengthening of your weak theta your strong alpha will be softened and weaker. That's all you need man !

The other option is listening to the theta/delta tapes 800 times before somebody will tell you that you trying not hard enough.

Jan

[Adrian]

Greetings Napoleon!

You still are still generalising far too much in my opinion

The brainwaves of each and every person vary during the day - probably considerably.

And I have consulted Robert Bruce on this discussion - Robert has helped thousands of people over a great many years on OBE related subjects, and has quite literally seen every possible case. Robert clearly states that anyone can OBE with practice - and Robert, above all, will know.

Sure, I would concede that some people have more natural tendencies than others, but like everything, if you practice enough you can get there.

Brainwave entrainment is progressive, and as far as I can tell it is permanent, and that is clearly an important factor to consider. Such entrainment can be accomplished through daily meditation and, for example BWGEN - which I believe is a very valuable tool for many people - probably the best overall brainwave entrainment tool there is - and free or nearly free.

Tom is also correct when he states that it is more likely to be the people that have these abilities,or latent abilities that will be drawn to it in the first place. The vast majority of mankind, as yet, has never heard of the Astral or OBE, much less sought the abilities. Universal laws are perfect because they were designed and created by perfection, and such laws take everything into account.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Tom]

It is not a matter of giving up to acknowledge that maybe, based on the way my brain is wired, it might be easier to work with energy and healing. It is a joy to not bash my head against a wall and wonder what is wrong with me when some things like astral projection take much longer than most people need. I still want astral projection and will not give up on trying. It helps to understand that there are ways to assist me and that choosing not to acknowledge that I need help will not make me feel better. 300 tries? 600? How about 3000? Maybe even 6000, and still not being there? What Napoleon is telling me is not that something is wrong with me or that I will never get there. Instead, what I am hearing is that I am okay and that there are tools out there more suited to me than all of those tools designed for the other 35%. It is true that Robert Bruce can teach anyone. We all acknowledge that. The difference is that for 35% of the population it will be easier for Robert Bruce to teach. The other 65% will need for Robert Bruce to spend more time and effort, but Robert Bruce can afford it. What I want is to know everything there is about that, and how to help myself.

[napoleon]

Hello Adrian,

BWGEN as probably "the best overall brainwave entrainment tool there" ?
Hmm. I use it for 1 month, every single day, and had not one OOB.
Should I try it for 12 months more ?

You wrote:
"Tom is also correct when he states that it is more likely to be the people that have these abilities,or latent abilities that will be drawn to it in the first place."

So what about those of us visiting this forum, or those attempting OOB for many many years, who never actually experined it for  themselves ?
It is frustrating to be drawn here, read about all the super extraordinanry astral adventures and don't have your own.  

You wrote:
"Robert clearly states that anyone can OBE with practice - and Robert, above all, will know."
This sounds cool and keeps my hope alive.

Wishing you well
Jan




Jan

[Adrian]

Greetings Napoleon!

I suspect your biggest block from OBE is not brainwaves, but your attitude.

In order to experience OBE you must approach it with a postive attitude. All I have seen from you is a negative attitude, and that is your problem I reckon.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Tom]

From my perspective Napoleon is being more positive in attitude than most people I know. It is positive to be willing to change approaches when something is not working. The only problem (possibly) is the name of this thread. It is only people who have not accomplished astral projection and yet do not try other approaches whi will not never succeed. Unfortunately I cannot suggest a new title for the thread, one less confrontational.