Bush Sucks.

[Willis]

In one of my biology course we have seen that any species that grows exponentially will sharply go down drastically, I hope that it's not true.

This is a biological truth.  Here is an article I wrote for www.oneplanetonelife.com.  Forgive me, its kind of long....

"We are the result of 4 billion years of the evolutionary process.

The Evolution of Life is the result of the continuing cooperation of Earth systems. Any system that does not participate in the complement of the entire system will eventually fail, without exception.

This is death.

Death in the natural world is not defined as a result of competing species. Death is the necessary ingredient life needs to remain in harmony with the bigger process of life called Evolution. If a death is not in harmony with the bigger process of life, it is not necessary, and is therefore detrimental to this process called evolution.

Darwin got it wrong in one important aspect: Survival of the Fittest. We have used this phrase to justify our slaughtering of the natural world. It has become our battle cry against nature.

Nature is a network of complimentary systems. Any system that does not participate in the complement of another system will eventually fail. "Fittest" does not mean strongest, it means the part that fits best within the whole. The system does not get rid of another part that is benefiting the system. The system gets rid of the part that becomes detrimental to the system, and replaces it with a more beneficial part, one that "fits" better.

With this new definition of the natural cycle, this process of evolution, I can say that what we are doing is not part of this natural process.

Evolution did not cease at the creation of Homo sapiens. Evolution continued on to create the mind, what Ken Wilbur calls the intangible noosphere. Through the continuation of evolution, the mind has created language, created writing, created the sciences, religions and philosophies, created society, culture, and laws. It is unique in the natural world, and it is the sole property of Homo sapiens.

The mind is the natural by-product of the Evolution of Life. But it does not end here. Evolution is and always will be at work.

The conscious decisions we make today guide the future evolution of the mind and its compliment to the rest of the system.

Our destiny is to bridge this gap that has been created between humans and the natural world, between what is the noosphere and the biosphere. To become compliments to the system called life. To participate in the creative, evolutionary process that has been guiding life for 4 billion years."

[Gandalf]

Darwin got it wrong in one important aspect: Survival of the Fittest

Actually he didn't get it wrong, he got it right. Your interpretation of 'fittest' to mean 'best able to adapt' is correct; as that was what he actually meant.

It was everyone else who was wrong as his famous quote was taken out of context and mis-interpreted, especially by 'social darwinists' like the Nazis and people like them; the social darwinism mindset, based on a mis-interpretation of Darwin's theory, was very popular throughout the late 19th and early 20th century and not only with the Nazis. Many 'educated' People held similar views in America, Britain and elsewhere is Europe at the time and used it to justify racist views.

Just goes to show 'a little knowledge is dangerous', as they say!

Doug

[Willis]

Wow.  I never heard of that before.  It makes sense.  "Best able to adapt" could be taken both ways, meaning competition or cooperation couldn't it?

Thanks for the info Doug!  I'll have to look into that.  It would be very relevant to some of the environmental stuff I am working on.  Where can I get some of this info from?

Will

[Ben K]

hmm...your paper does not address the issue of complex human social "norms" and the subsequent enforcement of those norms. We will never evolve if we dont want to.

do any more child prodigies need to commit suicide?

[Willis]

Huh? Please explain or give an example of the social norms...

We will never evolve if we don't want to.

No, but sometimes drastic change can be forced upon you.  And like every single event in your life, you can choose what you will do with it.

And what do you mean by

do any more child prodigies need to commit suicide?

[XenXheng]

In the interests of fairness, I would ask that you make the following threads in addition to this one:

"Pol Pot Sucks."
http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/pot.htm
http://www.time.com/time/daily/polpot/1.html

"Saddam Sucks."
http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/htimages/KurdsGassedin1988_Time3-31-03.jpg
http://www.thesandspur.org/media/paper623/news/2004/10/22/News/Mass-Graves.In.Iraq.Investigated-778044.shtml

"Kim Jong Il Sucks."
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17504
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,1075267,00.html
http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/terrorism/north_koreans_eating_human_flesh.htm

"China Sucks."
http://www.ycsi.net/users/reversespins/humanrights.html
http://www.uaw.org/action/china/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1425570.stm

"African Warlords Suck."
http://allafrica.com/stories/200505230467.html
http://www.preventgenocide.org/africa/
http://english.pravda.ru/world/2002/07/05/31830.html

Insert any other of the dozen atrocities committed on this planet, worldwide, at any time, if you so wish.

It is really nauseating how you people gloss over such blatant disregard for human life like this.  Millions murdered in Africa and East Asia, the Kurds being slaughtered by the hundred thousands in Iraq, and yet, the only person you decry on these forums (or any other one), is Bush, Bush, Bush.

A convenient scapegoat to blame for the world's problems, and your own.

Those of you who have immense personal problems and yet refuse to deal with any of them, instead equating Bush with Hitler and thinking, "Yeah, my life's a wreck... but at least I'm not BUSH!  He hurts people just like me and that makes him the same as Hitler!"

Those of you who spend so much time spewing venom at Democrats, Republicans, Evangelical Christians, Bush, Clinton, America, Canada, China, New Agers, Satanists or whatever group or country you've decided is your sole, mortal enemy.

All of you need to take a long hard look at what's really going on in the world, and at yourselves.

Glossing over the world's atrocities and focusing on a convenient enemy (and who is most convenient as the leader of the strongest nation in the world) does nothing to raise awareness for the multitude of problems out there right now.

Yes, Bush has acted terribly with many different things in our country and abroad.  He's screwing social security, the environment is suffering, and he's nipping away at homosexual rights.

But unless you can think to yourself what good traits Bush has, or what good things he has done for the world (freeing Iraq from a brutal dictator who killed hundreds of thousands, despite why the war started, to name one), and unless you can wrap your mind around the numerous atrocities happening around the world, even as we speak, you will NEVER understand the whole story.

Bringing awareness to Bush's faults is a noble act.  I applaud people for bringing them into the light, so I know what mistakes he is making and what to prepare for in the future.

However, equating him with Hitler?  Blaming him solely for problems in the world?  Ignoring his good points, and blowing up and focusing on all his faults?  Bringing no attention to other, more important, things going on in the world?

That's just pathetic.

As long as you continue to demonize Bush as your convenient enemy, you will always be running away from other problems, whether they be in the world at large or in yourselves.

And as long as you refuse to hear a Republican's point of view, adopt a Democrat way of life, or view history IN ITS ENTIRETY, rather than posting this tired old escapism "Bush Sucks" bull, you will always only have half the story.

And half the story is not sufficient to have a clear view of the world.

Grow up.  It's no wonder that many of you hate Bush and America as you do, not because of who or what they are.

For many of you, it's because they reflect that which you are not: strong, active, affecting change.  That is why you ignore murder in other countries; America is the strongest.  And more power means more evil, right?  If America kills tens of thousands as CASUALTIES OF WAR in Iraq, it's certainly much more evil than child soldiers and genocide, millions killed blatantly BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE in Africa.  After all, when has Africa ever had the strongest army in the world?

Chris

P.S. If you doubt what I say, show me links to where you decry murder, rape and other crimes with the same veracity that you do Bush and America.  Something different than the high horse, "Oh, that's terrible.  But there must have been a reason in the grand scheme of things.  God has a reason.  Heaven is showing us compassion.  *Insert more apologetics here*"

Show me one time where you afforded America and Bush, your convenient enemies, that same courtesy.

[Frank]

Hi:

If I may add, this thread is on the topic of "Bush" sucks. It may well be that other world political figures "suck" too. In which case you would be very welcome to discuss that topic in a suitably titled thread. But this thread is for people who think "Bush" sucks, so you will obviously see a very anti-Bush bias in this thread, as it is the very nature of the thread.

This forum is not "anti" Bush in any way. It would just appear that some members dislike his policies or his character, etc., to the extent they would like to make their voice heard. Provided they do it on-topic, in the right section and in accordance with the published AUP I see no problem with that. As I say, you are more than welcome to do the same thing with any other political figure of your choosing.

Yours,
Frank

[XenXheng]

Are you saying I'm not allowed to discuss an unhealthy fixation on a demonized Bush in a thread titled "Bush Sucks."?

Then perhaps you should explain why people discussing french fries on the first page were not given a similar warning.

Or the people on the second page discussing money and happiness.

Or the pro-Canada posts.

Or the evolution and death posts.

My point isn't that they should be silenced or warned.  I'm saying if it adds something to the conversation, it should be allowed.  Seeing as how you consider "humor" and "deep thoughts" to be fair game, I don't see why others shouldn't have the chance to defend their hatred of Bush, and only Bush, or America, and only America.

And my point isn't holding up Bush for moral judgement between dictators worldwide, despite the fact that I pointed out the difference between the two.  I lead my post off with those examples to give everyone something to think about before they continued with the rest of my post.  I want to know what makes people think they can blame only Bush for the world's problems while blatantly ignoring more pressing issues.

In that regard, I think I am firmly on topic.

Chris

[Willis]

Wow.  I don't know what to say about this last post, but I'll try.

I appreciate and respect your thoughts and perspective on this thread, but to be honest, I don't really understand where you are coming from.

However, I will respectfully reply to your posting and point to some of the inconsistencies I see not only in your words, but also in the attitude from which these words have been written.  This is a forum in which people can exchange their viewpoints and in no way am I wanting to disrespect yours, so please don't take offense.  I only wish to give you a better understanding of where I'm coming from, and in turn, maybe find out a little but more about your perspective.  That being said....

In the interests of fairness, I would ask that you make the following threads in addition to this one:

...

Your list is far from complete.   You were not really trying to include these links in "the interests of fairness", because that would be an impossible task, for you omitted millions upon millions of other topics.  The reason you put them in there to try and "prove" that your thoughts on this topic are more important than the other thoughts that have been posted, and this was your illustration.

It is really nauseating how you people gloss over such blatant disregard for human life like this. Millions murdered in Africa and East Asia, the Kurds being slaughtered by the hundred thousands in Iraq, and yet, the only person you decry on these forums (or any other one), is Bush, Bush, Bush.

This title of this topic is "Bush Sucks".  Once again, it would be an impossible task to list here all the atrocities committed by all the leaders around the world.  This topic is about sharing particular viewpoints we have concerning particular actions about the Bush Administration.  This topic at no point in no way is attempting to illustrate all the things wrong with this world!  It is beyond my understanding that someone could believe that was the goal of this topic, or that that is even possible.  Not to mention the personal attacks in the first line of that quote.  Out of respect of your viewpoint (something you don't have for ours) I will refrain from the obvious opportunities you have provided us.

Those of you who have immense personal problems and yet refuse to deal with any of them, instead equating Bush with Hitler and thinking, "Yeah, my life's a wreck... but at least I'm not BUSH! He hurts people just like me and that makes him the same as Hitler!"

Again, with the personal attacks.  You are slowly eroding the respect people who read this may have for you and your viewpoint.  And I briefly scanned over this topic and nowhere did I find someone saying "Yeah, my life's a wreck... but at least I'm not BUSH! He hurts people just like me and that makes him the same as Hitler!".  Also, nowhere did I see people say Bush is just like Hitler.  What was being pointed out is the eerily similar propaganda tactics that are being used.  It is naive to think that anybody can say that Bush is the same as Hitler.  And it is similarly naive to assume that someone is trying to say just that.  You only read what you wanted to from that post, again to try and validate your thoughts and the insecurities you may have about them.

A convenient scapegoat to blame for the world's problems, and your own.

From my perspective, the current administration is but only a part of the world's problems.  Not to say that some of the administration's policies aren't good.  But once again, this is not the place to list ALL these policies and critique every single one of them.  Depending on who you are and what you do and the perspective and knowledge you have about the world and the administration, the different policies you are going to focus on.  That specific policy/topic is outlined in the unitial posting.  As for my own problems, you haven't a clue.  With that comment you have lost all respect I may have concerning the thoughts you have about this topic.  Well, I guess I do respect it enough to comment on it, but not much more.

Those of you who spend so much time spewing venom at Democrats, Republicans, Evangelical Christians, Bush, Clinton, America, Canada, China, New Agers, Satanists or whatever group or country you've decided is your sole, mortal enemy.

Unfortunately, all of us have our enemies.  Your enemies just happen to be us and our thoughts.

Glossing over the world's atrocities and focusing on a convenient enemy (and who is most convenient as the leader of the strongest nation in the world) does nothing to raise awareness for the multitude of problems out there right now.

How can you sit there and say that bringing a topic of concern to a public forum for debate and discussion does nothing to raise awareness on world problems?  That is exactly what we are discussing!  Again, IT IS AN IMPOSSIBLE TASK TO BRING ALL THE WORLD'S ISSUES UNDER ONE TOPIC AND DISCUSS THEM!!!!!  If you believe I am wrong about this, start the thread!  Lets get it on!

All of you need to take a long hard look at what's really going on in the world, and at yourselves.

I have been doing that for quite some time now thank you.

Yes, Bush has acted terribly with many different things in our country and abroad. He's screwing social security, the environment is suffering, and he's nipping away at homosexual rights.

How can you agree with the topic of debate, yet spew venom at the people who are trying to discuss it?

But unless you can think to yourself what good traits Bush has,

done that...

or what good things he has done for the world (freeing Iraq from a brutal dictator who killed hundreds of thousands, despite why the war started, to name one),

that is a matter of perspective...please respectfully discuss our perspectives with us...

and unless you can wrap your mind around the numerous atrocities happening around the world,

an impossible task, but one I am currently attempting...

you will NEVER understand the whole story.

Again, for anyone, even the Bush Administration, an impossible task.

Bringing awareness to Bush's faults is a noble act. I applaud people for bringing them into the light, so I know what mistakes he is making and what to prepare for in the future.

Wait a minute...  

Glossing over the world's atrocities and focusing on a convenient enemy does nothing to raise awareness for the multitude of problems out there right now.

Which is it?

However, equating him with Hitler? Blaming him solely for problems in the world? Ignoring his good points, and blowing up and focusing on all his faults? Bringing no attention to other, more important, things going on in the world?

We've been over and over this point, and it seems to be the intent of your posting.  Once again IT IS AN IMPOSSIBLE TASK TO BRING ALL THE WORLD'S ISSUES UNDER ONE TOPIC AND DISCUSS THEM!!!!!  If you believe I am wrong about this, start the thread!

That's just pathetic.

Agreed.

As long as you continue to demonize Bush as your convenient enemy, you will always be running away from other problems, whether they be in the world at large or in yourselves.

  Please explain.  If you reply to this posting of mine at all, please explain this one.  Please, please, please.  You have a point in this quote to make and I don't get it.  Please explain.

And half the story is not sufficient to have a clear view of the world.

If it is possible to have a clear view on the whole story, someone must have already done it.  Please tell me who it is so I can get some more info on it.  I'm coming up a little short.

Grow up.

I am grown up.  I'm am quite sure that I am more grown up than you.

For many of you, it's because they reflect that which you are not: strong, active, affecting change. That is why you ignore murder in other countries; America is the strongest. And more power means more evil, right? If America kills tens of thousands as CASUALTIES OF WAR in Iraq, it's certainly much more evil than child soldiers and genocide, millions killed blatantly BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE in Africa. After all, when has Africa ever had the strongest army in the world?

Chris, when are you running for World Leader.  You have my vote.

P.S. If you doubt what I say, show me links to where you decry murder, rape and other crimes with the same veracity that you do Bush and America.

www.oneplanetonelife.com

P.S.  That is my site.  Please show me YOURS.

Respectfully,
Will

[XenXheng]

Hello,

Thank you for the reply.  And please pardon the language.  I had someone in particular in mind when I posted, and if the post doesn't apply to you... then the jabs do not, as well.

It IS an impossible task to talk about all the world's problems.  I agree.  But please direct me to a post this angry that isn't about America or Bush.  Can you?  Can you show me a post in these forums that demonizes someone as badly as they do Bush?

I'm not saying we should talk about everything that has happened, for that is impossible.  Why you thought I would indicate we MUST write about EVERYTHING that's happened rather than what I was trying to say, that we should BALANCE the demonizing of Bush with SOME other points of the world at large, is baffling.  I blame my vagueness, which is a problem in a lot of my writing.

I never said that people said their lives were a wreck in this post.  However, I'm sure it is true for some of their private lives, which is what I was trying to point out.  The quote was meant as a personal thought, not a post.

For the Bush=Hitler analogy?  Post 4.  "You're being too easy on the Father.  Heil!"

You also say that some may have lost respect for me and my posts because of my personal attacks.  Does that mean they will refuse to listen to me?  Because I'm abrasive?  Wouldn't that be denying themselves of potential information because "someone made me feel bad?"

If Hitler said the sky was blue, should people doubt him?

You and your thoughts are not my enemy.  In fact, you have proven yourself, in this post and around the forums, to be an open-minded person who sees all sides of the issue.  I applaud you, and I praise you.

This post was meant for those who consider themselves open-minded by blaming America and Bush every opportunity they get while glossing over all the other problems of the world (not ALL, but SOME, my friend).  Their actual close-mindedness, yes, is my enemy.

This is not a pro-Bush post.  This is an anti-ignorance post.  I want to see balance... in our news media, in our forums, anywhere information is being exchanged.  I spew venom not at people who dislike Bush, but people who dislike ONLY Bush.  If you are not in this category, let me know a cafe near where you live so I can buy you some tea or a beer or whatever it is you like to drink.

Quote:
Bringing awareness to Bush's faults is a noble act. I applaud people for bringing them into the light, so I know what mistakes he is making and what to prepare for in the future.  

Quote:
Glossing over the world's atrocities and focusing on a convenient enemy does nothing to raise awareness for the multitude of problems out there right now.

Which is it?  It's both.  Bush is a problem, and other world leaders are a problem.  Focusing solely on one or the other is denying part of the story.

Quote:
As long as you continue to demonize Bush as your convenient enemy, you will always be running away from other problems, whether they be in the world at large or in yourselves.  

"Please explain. If you reply to this posting of mine at all, please explain this one. Please, please, please. You have a point in this quote to make and I don't get it. Please explain."

Oh, ok.  Let me use self as an example, so you can rightly spear me later for projecting my past failures onto a larger group of people.

I started out an evangelical Christian, Southern Baptist.  Evolution was my enemy, until I realized what they thought about women, and the illogical concept of Hell.  Eternal punishment for finite sin was my beef.

I became a scientist as a reaction, and then religion and God became my enemy.  However, I hated Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and every other religion way less than I hated Christianity, the religion "large and in charge" in our country.  I hated God, too, for my problems were great and He did nothing to help me.

Then I found a balance between science and religion and now accept both as important in my life.

Yet, I still had a multitude of problems, and needed someone to hate.  So I became a liberal, and hated Bush, America, old rich white men and all the other typical focal points of liberal rage.

After a few years of that in college, I finally came to grip with the bulk of my crippling problems in life, and eradicated my depression and suicidal tendencies.

This was my point.  Rather than dealing with my own problems rightly and directly, I instead externalized my problems onto a convenient scapegoat.  Hence my earlier quote about a wrecked life.  My life was a wreck, but as long as I keep blaming someone else for their own faults, I can forget about dealing with my own.

As long as Bush was my scapegoat, I could get away with not taking responsibility for my own life.  His faults were greater than mine, after all, which means we should deal with him first.

Later, I also found myself speaking to a few conservative people who were not the stupid, racist, homophobic people my liberal friends had made them out to be.  As a reaction, I became conservative to escape what the liberal movement had become for me: a reactionary, nay-sayer movement of hatred that was all ideals, and little actual progress.

As a Republican... I realized that that group did the same by demonizing the Democrats as stupid, short-sighted and blinded by their rage.  So I stopped being Republican and instead sought truth.  Pure information, the account of what happened.  Not colored by politics, or personal vendettas or anything else.  Just what happened.

And being in this place in my life now, it saddens and angers me to see liberal news outlets that tell us how many marines died in Iraq.  Conservative news outlets that tell us how many insurgents died.  Nobody wants to talk about the whole story, to tell us things that might be detrimental to their beliefs.

Is it so hard to ask for a news report that tells us who died, and what happened?  Leave out information for time constraints, not because the editor is a liberal who wants to see the war in Iraq end, and wants to paint his own picture of the conflict.  Let the people decide what is what with the whole picture in front of them.

So I came here and see the anti-Bush thread sitting there, and go page after page of posts that have nothing to do with any other major problems happening in the world.  And that made me mad.

That's why I posted.

Like you, I'm still searching for a source of information that isn't colored or biased.  It's not easy, and I have yet to find one.

"Chris, when are you running for World Leader. You have my vote."



Thanks, but I'm still a bratty, immature 22 year old with a chip on his shoulder who isn't firmly in control of his emotions just yet.  I wouldn't trust myself with that much power... but I would take an advisory role.

Will sir, you are the exact kind of person I want to get to know more than the ones who attach their egos to a party or idea and refuse to think further on the subject.  Any insults in this post were not meant for you... and overboard for those they affected.

I hope you can understand me better now.

Chris

P.S. "I'm am quite sure that I am more grown up than you."

Aw, and after you said you wouldn't resort to personal attacks?  Tsk, tsk.

[Willis]

Hi Chris, nice chat!

If you have someone particular in mind, then please don't say "all of you" and things like that.  It would really help discussion.

But please direct me to a post this angry that isn't about America or Bush. Can you? Can you show me a post in these forums that demonizes someone as badly as they do Bush

?

Why do I have to do that?  I am demonizing some of Bush's decisions.  Why do I have to show you that I also demonize other people in order to make my perspective more valid?

I'm not saying we should talk about everything that has happened,

You had said that throughout your post.  It was the main point of your argument.

...we should BALANCE the demonizing of Bush with SOME other points of the world at large,

Those other points are for other topics.  This one is about Bush.  Why do I have to write about the atrocities done in Africa in order to validate what I am saying about particular Bush policy?  Respectfully, maybe your just being vague again.

You also say that some may have lost respect for me and my posts because of my personal attacks. Does that mean they will refuse to listen to me? Because I'm abrasive? Wouldn't that be denying themselves of potential information because "someone made me feel bad?"

Yes, yes, and yes.  My point exactly.

You and your thoughts are not my enemy. In fact, you have proven yourself, in this post and around the forums, to be an open-minded person who sees all sides of the issue. I applaud you, and I praise you.

Thank you.  Seriously, that was nice.  

Their actual close-mindedness, yes, is my enemy.

I am not here to mentor, but from my view, their close-mindedness is not the enemy, for we all are close-minded to an extent.  It is a tool we develope to prevent ourselves from becoming victims.  Some more so than others.  But this path is not about their close-mindedness.  All your enemies, if you have them, are within.

Which is it? It's both. Bush is a problem, and other world leaders are a problem. Focusing solely on one or the other is denying part of the story.

Agreed, however, in order to have a productive discussion, we cannot include ideas that are not relevant to the topic.  The topic is specific aspects of the Bush policy.  If you can point us to information concerning other world leaders that may shed light on our topic of conversation, please do so.  That's what this is all about!

started out an evangelical Christian.... or personal vendettas or anything else. Just what happened...

OK, so you have pushed your personal problems, whether overcome or not, onto us.  You took what you despised about yourself and put that weight on our shoulders and labeled us the same, then demanded we follow the same path you have taken in order for us to overcome our weaknesses.  Please don't assume that your problems are mine.  In fact, in light your new post, they are not in any way.  This sounds harsh, but I do not mean it disrespectfully in any way.  Your comments just don't have any relevance to my perspective and you tried to force it that way by trying to make me and others look ignorant and close-minded.

I agree with all you say concerning the media and their slant on things.  You are spot on.  It makes it difficult to believe anything you read or hear, and I think we can all agree to that.

I do not claim to know all that is.  My concern is environmental and the afffects our perspective of nature is having on our home.  For me, our raping of the natural world is a symptom of our troubled spirit/beliefs, whatever moves your soul.  It is bringing society to the edge of collapse.  I am not a doomsayer, like you, I am seeking the reality of the larger picture going on.  Its not about Africa, its not about Suddam and Bush, its not about the animals, its not about Scott Peterson.  It is about what is within.  I hope I am not misquoting Frank when I say "it is all within".  From the Christian perspective, Christ only fought the enemies within, and had only love and compassion for his enemies without, even upon his crucifiction.  We all know the Buddha's battle was within.  Even Hitler's battle was within.  The difference was, with Hitler, he projected his inner enemies onto the world and fought them there.

I appreciate your kind words.  Insults should not be meant for anyone.

I understand you much better now, thank you.

P.S.  22?  Yep, I am more grown up!  

[Frank]

Hi:

Again, I stress that this thread is specifically entitled for those members here who think "Bush" sucks, which has naturally incorporated a number of side issues. Your complaint set out by stating, "In the interests of fairness, I would ask that you make the following threads in addition to this one:"

Why are you asking us???

If you wish to set up a topic on a similar theme regarding any other political figure of your choosing you are entirely at liberty to do that, provided, of course, you do so in accordance with our published AUP. Please do not complain that this thread is biased against Bush. The very nature of the way the thread was created is designed to attract people who think he "sucks".

You call for balance, but you are entirely at liberty to create a thread entitled, "I think Bush is god's gift to humanity", or similar, if you want. It's just that this thread is for people who think Bush sucks and is largely for people to discuss why they think he sucks to varying degrees and any naturally occurring side issues that may offshoot from that. If you think he doesn't suck at all, then simply open a thread saying why you think he doesn't suck at all.

If you are calling for balance, then YOU simply create the threads that provide that balance in whatever way you feel is appropriate.

Yours,
Frank

[XenXheng]

I've read other forums before and always shook my head seeing the flame wars, the insults, the anger.  I promised that should I be a forum goer, I would choose to "discuss" rather than "debate" or "argue," both of which feel to me like "I'm right, and I won't give any ground."

And then I post a flame.  I wish I could tell you I was surprised, but I'm not.  I always make promises to be more loving and friendly and to take better control of my emotions, then the next day I get carried away again.

I'm sorry for being so rude to people in the first post, generalizing and for any feelings hurt.  Please forgive me for being the close-minded, pigheaded one.

Actually after I posted my last one, I went to L.A. to take care of some passport business with that whole bureaucracy thing going on, and I felt bad about what I had said.  So, I told myself I would be kind to people and not lose my temper like I usually do in that cramped, hot, rude place.

It came more naturally than it usually does.  I was waving and smiling at people on the street, gave someone on the street some money (actually pulled an illegal U-turn to come back for him)... and get this.  A girl just randomly walked up to me, asked me to take her for a ride on my motorcycle, then for my phone number.  While I was red-faced, sweating, not exactly in my Sunday best and just standing at the light, she started talking to me.  What a difference an attitude makes.

So I hope everyone here is not upset with being my evolutionary guinea pigs, because I wouldn't have been able to find a better control over myself and a better perspective towards others without royally screwing up here.  So please forgive me, and have my thanks, if you will.

I'd like to magically turn the clock back 24 hours and restart my first post, if I may, using the new knowledge I have gained.

*Ahem*

Thanks for bringing that to our attention, Willis.  Shame on President Bush, proclaimed "Steward of the Land," for being so reckless with emissions that are already too much for us to handle!

However, not to single you out or anything, but don't you think this constant harping on President Bush's policies is calling attention away from more important issues like genocide, child prostitution, secret jailings and other issues going on in the world that have nothing to do with him?

I mean, I wouldn't normally ask, but it seems the News and Media section of this forum is not really addressing issues that many would consider important, like murder and rape by the millions in other countries.  We seem to spend an inordinate amount of time on Bush and America.

It's important to know what he is doing wrong and I thank you again for sharing with us.  Truly, his environmental record is abysmal, and we should all know what he and his corporate buddies are up to behind the scenes!

But at the same time, I would like to hear about more pressing issues from someone as informed as yourself (nice site, by the way, I had no idea Earth's extinction rate was that high), rather than fueling the already roaring fire of Bush's terrible track record.

With respect and admiration,
Chris

[XenXheng]

Hello Frank,

I don't quite understand.  You are only allowed to post in this thread if you believe the original poster is correct in his opinion that Bush Sucks?

So if I create a thread that says, "Garfield the cat is God," nobody can post in it?  I'm assuming nobody prays to a statue of Garfield... though I certainly used to when I was 8.

Thanks for clarifying,
Chris

[Nay]

Can't we just all suck along....I mean get along?

[XenXheng]

Actually, if I may declare myself the loser of this conversation and bow out rather ungracefully, I'll do so now.

Sorry for hijacking your thread, man.

The drink offer still stands.

Chris

[no_leaf_clover]

But unless you can think to yourself what good traits Bush has, or what good things he has done for the world (freeing Iraq from a brutal dictator who killed hundreds of thousands, despite why the war started, to name one), and unless you can wrap your mind around the numerous atrocities happening around the world, even as we speak, you will NEVER understand the whole story.

However, equating him with Hitler? Blaming him solely for problems in the world? Ignoring his good points, and blowing up and focusing on all his faults? Bringing no attention to other, more important, things going on in the world?

That's just pathetic.

Unfortunately, the Republican party today is pushing for a lot of policies that are known to go hand in hand with fascism. First of all is our huge militarization (see this graph and this graph). Second, and possibly most important, is the huge show of patriotism that the current administration has been able to pull in order to be able to do things with that military. Iraq is an example, seeing as how Iraq did absolutely nothing and still got invaded, and rather than any massive protesting on the part of the peasants, it's still going on.

And let me take this opportunity to dismiss the total bs excuse that goes like "Saddam was a brutal dictator". I'll present a chart here of all the genocide that continues in the world today, and you pick out the "bad dictators". You'll find Saddam was by no means the worst, and that there are much easier targets to hit if you want to knock out bad people. The facts are that Bush lied about WMDs and connections to al Qaeda to get us there. There was no "Saddam is bad" war; it was a "Saddam has WMDs" war, and he did not have them.

Modern Genocide in Africa:

Sudan (2,000,000 deaths so far)
Ethiopia (1,000,000)
Burundi (475,000)
Congo (2,120,000+)
Uganda (550,000+)
Zimbabwe (20,000)
Equatorial Guinea (50,000)
Nigeria (1,000,000)
Rwanda ( 810,000+)
Somolia (100,000)
Botswana (100+)
Algeria (210,000)
Guinea Bissau (1000+)
Morocco - Western Sahara (1000+)
South Africa (1000+)

Going outside of Africa into other continents, you have...

Americas:

Colombia (upwards of 160,000)
Brazil (upwards of 300,000)
Cuba (1000+)

Asia:

North Korea (2,000,000+)
Burma (115,000+)
India (100,000+)
Nepal (6,000+)
China (35,000,000)
Pakistan (1,561,000)
Indonesia (510,000+)
Philippines (1000+)
Afghanistan (840,000+)
Sri Lanka (1000+)
Cambodia (2,310,000+ to 2,810,000+)
Vietnam (1,110,000+)
Laos (110,000+)

Europe:

Russian-Chechnya (60,000+)
Georgia (100+)

And finally..... the Middle East!

Israel-Palestine (4,000+)
Iraq (190,000 - also continuing to this day)

I'd like to especially draw attention to Africa. In the Sudan alone there have been 10x the number of people killed in a modern-day genocide than Saddam ever killed. What's more is that the forces in that part of the world are much weaker than Saddam's forces, making them much easier to defeat, and yet we do nothing. I've never heard Bush mention the Africa Genocides once. The only thing the current administration does is offer aid to keep some Africans from starving, and it seems that just detracts attention from the real problem down there. No unusual political tactics there, I can assure you.

So why did we go to Iraq? There were no WMDs, and obviously Bush cannot have had very good intelligence that there were, there were no connections to al Qaeda as even the 9/11 Commission itself will tell, and the worst excuse of all, "Saddam is BAD!", doesn't hold a bit of water in the face of all the other truly brutal regimes that Bush is utterly ignoring. I guess those countries just don't sit on enough oil?

And back on to our nation's current fascist policies.. Besides overwhelming militarization, and pulling nationalistic bs to get people to shut up about whatever the government does (As Jon Stewart said he has found.. something like, 9/11 + X = Shut up, where X is whatever the government says.), there is also discrimination and sexism, as you've mentioned in the form of homophobia, which is also a fascist policy, and using other political parties for scapegoats. It's been increasingly difficult for anyone other than an anger-blinded radio show host to pin faults on the left, but "liberal" still draws a negative connotation for many americans thanks to such media sources, and especially the incredibly biased Fox News. I guess it's coincidence that the left-wing was similarly mocked in 1930's Germany, and that the Nazi party not only had major propoganda sources in mainstream media but also blamed the Reichstag Fire on Communists (Which brings me to another point, and that is that the government perpetrated 9/11 as a Reichstag of their own, which you can discuss on this thread if you'd like).

Obsession with national security... That's another big one. You can also call it 'fear mongering'. It's scaring the hell out of your citizens so that they seek comfort in the government; thus patriotism/nationalism. I think we would all agree that events like 9/11 did this wonderfully, in the same way the Reichstag Fire was wonderfully executed to fear monger the German people.

Seeing as how we're supposed to learn from history, and that history repeats itself, etc., look at the following quotes:

"Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ... All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger." - Hermann Goering, Nazi leader

And here you can see Hitler implementing the very policy:

"An evil exists that threatens every man, woman, and child of this great nation. We must take steps to insure our domestic security and protect our Homeland."
- Adolf Hitler

Is it just me or does that last quote sound like something out of a George W. speech?

"Now we go forward — grateful for our freedom, faithful to our cause, and confident in the future of the greatest nation on earth." - George W. Bush

"Our war on terror begins with al-Qaida, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped, and defeated." - George W. Bush

You'll notice another deception tactic in how the cause of all the terror that Americans feel is pinned upon al Qaeda and a vague group of other 'terrorists' (Maybe the kind that didn't exist, like the ones in Iraq? At least, didn't exist there until we invaded). That fear mongering is not coming from al Qaeda. It's coming from our government, and it should be no surprise that the fear has worked precisely in our government's favor since 9/11. It's worked because they've planned it too in the same way the Reichstag Fire was planned by the Nazis and blamed on Communists. Again, there's another thread for that if you want to discuss it.

Another tactic is putting religion and a religious ferver to the government and its actions. You can imagine the effect this has on people. The Nazis did this and were big on it too, but they didn't use Christianity. They cleverly went back to Germanic pagan religions and drew further nationalism from that. In our circumstance of having being founded from the start as a very Christian nation, Christianity works well for the current administration. Bush has already made comments as to how God told him to invade Iraq, etc. George Senior has even said that atheists cannot be patriotic and shouldn't even be considered citizens, and Grandaddy Bush, Prescott Bush, was a business partner of Hitler's and sold the Nazis something like 50% of their steel. But this connection, it must be pure coincidence, of course!

Further, corporate power is protected in Fascism, and this is really what defines Fascism as separate from Communism and other extreme leftist governments. Instead of equality for all, there is a very strong push for clearly defined social classes and powerful corporations. It's no secret that corporations virtually run this country, and they have had very close ties to government officials ever since WW2, and sometimes even earlier (Teapot Dome Scandal). I would go so far as to say all the true evil in this country comes directly from the corporations, or more specifically, money, or even MORE specifically, power, or greed. The whole system of Capitalism encourages greed, and it encourages being better off than other in terms of money, and therefore power. The atrocities that these corporations commit and engineer to create more profit are the real problems, and if you look into those they'll speak for themselves.

You can read on further fascist policies we're adopted here, including fraudulent elections (look up Diebold, if you want a peek into this), a discouragement of intellectuals and the arts, supression of labor movements, cronyism, and a sick fixation on crime and and punishing others.

Corporatism can be blamed for most every problem this world faces today, and Bush stands for corporations. Republicans in general stand for corporations, ie 'big business'. This would not be so bad as any other president we've had here in the modern world, except that with Bush we see a sudden and very frightening turn towards a suppressive government that supports its corporations maybe a bit too much, and to make it all scarier, this nation also happens to be the most powerful in the world in regards to military and economy. That such a leader should take us over (having not convincing won on his own a single election), serving such institutions, and overseeing the implementing of such policies while using fear-mongering is bad any way you might look at it! Trying to optimistic here doesn't even require you to look to the good side of Bush; it would just have you look for a way to get him out or delay the onset of fascism, unless of course you do not value your freedom and would like to see a fascist state become of the US.

It is naive to think that anybody can say that Bush is the same as Hitler.

It is naive of you to put that over him this early into his career.

He is no Hitler now, despite all the deaths he has thus-far been the direct cause of (figures on civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan are being discouraged, and no reliable numbers are even out; something very bad in itself). But that he is implementing policies not far off from your Hitlers and Mussolinis should be a wake up call that he isn't heading in the right direction. You can cry "You can't compare him to Hitler!" now, but if you don't pay attention and figure out where exactly this bastard is going, you won't be able to cry that for much longer.

[no_leaf_clover]

What? The discussion end before I finished posting?

Anyway I think I'm going out to eat. I'll bbl.

[Willis]

Great post no leaf.  Great post.  A significant portion of Americans feel the country has been hijacked.  Like I said, I am republican, and party lines has nothing to do with this post.  I am appalled at Bush's arrogance and the blatant finger he waves to the other leaders of the world.

I hope this country can climb out of the hole this man has dug for us.

[Willis]

Oh, Chris, thank you for your post.  This was not an argument in which I was trying to win.  I just wanted to have honest, mind-opening discussion.

P.S.  Please pass my link to as many people as possible.  Nobody knows how bad it has gotten.  Maybe I'll post a topic on a recent environmental news article and go off on these tree hugger issues.  That would be fun.

www.oneplanetonelife.com

Thanks again.
Willis

[coolbreeze]

Nay, thanks for lightening the mood a little. This thread is very emotionally taxing to read about intellegent people arguing about something like this and makes me really want to scream "WHY CANT WE ALL BE FRIENDS?"
But anyways....
I feel Bush has his own agenda and doesn't care for the rest of the country let alone the world, as seen with the way the Bush Administration has treated the UN. So, with this in mind- I think we can safely say that stopping genocide never has been on the Bush agenda, and never will be.

Look past the political boudaries though, the government doesn't have to be the one to stop genocide, at least not completely. I think we can get something done without constantly bickering politicians.

PS: I do hate bush though.

[Jenadots]

Cool breeze...and your hatred for Bush helps the problems of the world....how?  

We all better hope he says and does the right things over the next three years.  

And I really don't beleive the problems of the world are all his fault or our collective faults....many of the people who are suffering and dying are doing so because of their own leaders, not us.  

We cannot be all things to all people....or solve all the problems in every country.  We can do what we can, but the rest of the world needs to do something too.  

And hating any one in office is a waste of energy.  Better to direct that energy outward in a more peaceful thoughtform....one that perhaps can raise the level of positive energy in the world instead of just feeding into all the negative energy that already exists.  

The bickering politicians are merely reflecting the bickering that seems to be going on everywhere in this country.  We are not a very satisfied bunch and it shows up in the oddest sorts of ways.

[Nay]

Nicely said Jenadots, nicely said.

Nay

[patapouf]

Modern Genocide in Africa:

Sudan (2,000,000 deaths so far)
Ethiopia (1,000,000)
Burundi (475,000)
Congo (2,120,000+)
Uganda (550,000+)
Zimbabwe (20,000)
Equatorial Guinea (50,000)
Nigeria (1,000,000)
Rwanda ( 810,000+)
Somolia (100,000)
Botswana (100+)
Algeria (210,000)
Guinea Bissau (1000+)
Morocco - Western Sahara (1000+)
South Africa (1000+)

Going outside of Africa into other continents, you have...

Americas:

Colombia (upwards of 160,000)
Brazil (upwards of 300,000)
Cuba (1000+)

Asia:

North Korea (2,000,000+)
Burma (115,000+)
India (100,000+)
Nepal (6,000+)
China (35,000,000)
Pakistan (1,561,000)
Indonesia (510,000+)
Philippines (1000+)
Afghanistan (840,000+)
Sri Lanka (1000+)
Cambodia (2,310,000+ to 2,810,000+)
Vietnam (1,110,000+)
Laos (110,000+)

Europe:

Russian-Chechnya (60,000+)
Georgia (100+)

And finally..... the Middle East!

Israel-Palestine (4,000+)
Iraq (190,000 - also continuing to this day)

The number says it all; it's not a question of Republicans, Democrats, Green Party or any other political machine. We are the zombies that let those things happened.... I wonder when we will wake up. On an international level, just don't buy gas for a day and use a bicycle, let's see how ''solid'' this globalized system is: this is where we will realize that ''we'' are the solid foundations under it and that they make us hold this enormous pressure on our backs.

Take care,

[no_leaf_clover]

The number says it all; it's not a question of Republicans, Democrats, Green Party or any other political machine.

You're right. It's the result of Capitalism; all of them know this.

There's no profit for them in saving the lives of the people that are slaughtered around the world every day. That's why they don't bother to say or do anything. Only in a money-driven system could you produce such pigs, and only in a money-driven system could those pigs manipulate their subjects into similarly not caring about the rest of the world and putting out deceptive pocket-change aid funds simply to keep quiet those few of us that do care.

When someone says that it's "their fault" that a 3rd-world country sucks, frankly they don't know what they're talking about. If it was simply that easy to get in on the corporate-obsessive business of having a 1st-world country, I think it's safe to say they would do that! But no one is giving those countries much money, no one is fairly trading with them, their resources are virtually stolen from them, they are in dire need of medical aid for all of the diseases rampant in those parts of the world, and no one gives a sh** that they're killing each other with our weapons (the one thing they will consistently buy) on a daily basis in Holocaust-reminiscent genocides of millions of people. Yeah, it's all their faults! Maybe that's what you would like to believe to keep yourself from feeling guilty, but it's simply not true and you are continuing to allow this to occur day after day, all over the world. That's why people hate us, by the way.

And hating any one in office is a waste of energy. Better to direct that energy outward in a more peaceful thoughtform....one that perhaps can raise the level of positive energy in the world instead of just feeding into all the negative energy that already exists.

I don't think 'hate' is as much the goal here as is immediate, progressive change on a very wide scale.

It won't happen if enough people aren't aware of what's going on, or if not enough people care. It similarly won't happen if we just "hope" the charade goes well. The real issues will certainly not go well because it's their very nature not to, and there's no use idly hoping. People need to understand why we need a fundamental change in our system (imperial corporations and money-driven world politics resulting in a loss of freedom and a loss of lives), and then they need to accomplish changing it. Pretending these problems don't exist isn't helping anyone, either.