We Look to Christ

[Tom]

I got lost on the first sentence, about looking. It reminds me of something called "Practicing the Presence of God". It is very simple, but there was a book on the subject. The name says everything. Just constantly tell yourself that God is with you and watching even your thoughts. Can you imagine doing anything really negative with this reminder of the eternal looking over your shoulder?

[PeacefulWarrior]

Sorry that first sentence threw you off...I cut out the first part of the talk and pasted the rest.  As many here know, I am a Christian...and an astral projector.  Go figure.  Anyway, I thought this talk might interest a few people.  It's all about simplicity, really.

fides quaerens intellectum

[Tom]

Actually, I did not understand any of it from the first word on. The word "simplicity" means something to me, though.

There is no conflict between Christianity and astral projection. There are a lot of Christians who have a problem with it, though. Christianity seems to be a very social religion, and it does not appear to be easy for individual Christians to disagree with the main teachings of their particular branch.

[kakkarot]

actually, i think christianity has to be the easiest religion where a member can disagree with a main branch, because there are so many different "branches" that one can choose from. pretty sad really.

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

[PeacefulWarrior]

The best thing about true Christianity is that it allows total freedom.  And just for the record, I don't identify with 99% of other Christians...

fides quaerens intellectum

[Gandalf]

erm... yes.... what a wonderful rendition Peacefulwarrior.... I almost wants me to become a christian (not!)

do all christians have to word things in such a long winded convoluted way?
Nothing personal peacefulwarrior.. its just that your religious post there had all the halmarks of bore-inducing christian speal about it!

I fell asleap after the first line!


Douglas

[Nerezza]

Are you a mormon PeacefulWarrior?

"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." St. Thomas Aquinas

[Blossom]

I personally think Christianity is a tiny twig out of the end of some big limb going off from the trunk of the truth.. [Doc T's analogy sort of] That is why there are so many branches of christianity and so many choices to choose in finding your "religion".  If you ask me what is the main branch, I will say "I don't know" but that is what I am searching for.  The trunk..  

Sincerely, Blossom

[PeacefulWarrior]

First of all, I find it so interesting that whenever I, or anyone for that matter, posts something Christian here inevitably there are those who immediately become negative and persecutory...one thing that always pleases me is the fact that none of those who make deriding comments have any real evidence to support anything they say against the those who testify of experiences they have had.

One thing I can always say at the end of each day is that I never say anything negative about the spirituality of others.  "You believe this or that?  Great!  You experienced that!  Wonderful!"  I am always ready to respond like this.  I may not agree with others beliefs, but that only allows for interesting conversation and the sharing of spiritual experiences.

---------------------
Gandalf- first of all, I am sorry you found the discourse I delivered so "convoluted".   Next time before responding negatively about others spritual experiences and beliefs, you may want to meditate or pray regarding the things said.  "But the natural man breceiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
----------------------
Nerezza- Yes, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
-----------------------
Blossom-
look no further!  http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>
-----------------------

Love and peace to all!



fides quaerens intellectum

[Tom]

Like Buddhism, Christianity has more to worry about from its friends than its enemies. There will always be people who call themselves Christian for the wrong reasons, such as out of habit or because their parents told them so. It is another matter to consciously choose to follow Christ and to believe it is possible to become like Christ. Some people honestly believe they are Christian even though anyone watching them would know their goal is not heaven. People who attack Christianity have clear motives and goals. How do you explain people who call themselves Christian who do harm to the religion?

[Mobius]

Hi PW

Why must you periodically enter these "We look to Christ" or "The lord is my light" sort of threads? As far as I know, this is a neutral site/forum & you are right we should respect others religous beliefs, which I'd say most of us do. However have you seen the Buddhists, Hindu's, Taoists, Satanists or whoever in here putting up their religous dogma & calling the thread "We" look to "Buddha" or "Allah" or "Vishnu"? Who is "we"?, shouldn't you have said "I", or that the people you copied text off are the "We".

Christianity is the most well known for it's total disregard for others beliefs & cultures & have killed millions for not believing what they believe. I never see Buddhists etc. coming to my door or posting dogmatic threads on this forum, blindly saying they "know" Buddha or God, when in fact they literally have never met or seen these people, & rely on their religous text that has about as much truth in it as Harry Potter.

Considering the bible was written by the conquering & occupying Romans hundreds of years after the characters of the bible had died, to me doesn't represent an accurate account of what Jesus was trying to acheive. Almost like America of today conquering Afghanistan, then writing a bible 300 years later to say how good Osama Bin Laden was & making money off him, when I'm sure he wasn't/isn't their best buddy.

Do people come onto your bible forums & say "We look towards the Astral"? You say that you think it is only fair to accept others religions & not dis them for it, but you keep posting these religous threads & pretend to speak for more than yourself. This thread I find is equal to bible bashers turning up to my door to convince me of THEIR beliefs! If you are so excited about your religion, why do you need to push it on others? Surely if it was so good, they would see that for themselves & approach YOU. Anything else, is you trying to force your beliefs on others.................that is not freedom, or autonomy or respect for others right to choose for themselves.

Imagine if I turned up on your LDS site & said "We look to the astral" & after people who are expecting to see something relating to the forum they are on turn and have a go at me, I then say "hey, I'm not being negative or dissin anybody in here, why do you do it to me"?...................well, what did you expect? If it was written in a manner that suggested this is how things are for YOU & not WE, it might have been better received.

90% of the material you write PW is great & I have no problem with, but no-one else in here feels as though it is necessary to push their religous beliefs on others, so why do you?

Mobius

[PeacefulWarrior]

Mobius, my friend, thank you for your opinion.  First of all, I am not forcing or trying to force anything on anyone...and if anyone here put up a thread that said "We look to the astral" I would be the first to read it with interest and enthusiasm.  People in here talk about their beliefs and experiences all the time and that's what keeps me coming back.  Also, the astral chat IS the thread that is open to all kinds of "chat"- and that's why I didn't go post this in the OBE Topic, if I did that then I think I would be guilty of what you are saying I do.

I am sorry if you find the 10% of what I post, about my beliefs, is not interesting or worthwhile and I invite you not to read that percentage.  According to you I do a pretty good job of letting you know exactly what my post is about in the subject line, eh?  And besides, "The Lord is my Light" post(s) are some of the most read and  replied to topics in the forum and generated a lot of fascinating and meaningful debate and conversation.  

I respect you and all other members of this forum, and that is why I post things so dear to my heart.  Thanks for your input, I have and will continue to evaluate carefully the things I post before I post them.
---------------------------
TOM-
What you say IS SO TRUE.  I find that the majority of people's concerns towards Christianity stem from the bone-head (for lack of a better term) things that many have done and continue to do in the name of Christ.  I am glad that you recognize this fact.  Thanks for pointing it out.

-Love and Peace to ALL!

(I think I am going to post something under the title "Looking to the Astral"...)

fides quaerens intellectum

[James S]

I have read, or started to read a few threads like this that are basically lengthy excerpts from material gained from the web or via email.

Religions/beliefs aside, to me this site is all about personal growth and spiritual development. One of the things that I really like about this forum that is of great value towards this end, is it is a group of people who desire to help others through sharing their own personal experiences and revelations.

Pasting lengthy dissitatons of long winded writers does not tell me that the person contributing this to the forum is really any better for it, has had any real experiences as a result of reading it, or indeed has any thoughts of their own on the subject.

PeacefulWarrior, This posting of your obviously holds some value to your beliefs. Instead of subjecting the rest of us to the writings of someone else who we don't know from a bar of soap, why don't you give us your thoughts and perspective on the subject. What it means to you, your own personal experiences and insights and your own personal gains from it are more valuable than the pasted text of a most likely professional writer.

[PeacefulWarrior]

James:
I didn't know two pages was a lengthy dissertation!  Anyway, I do know what you mean...and although I hope no one is judging me personally by the things I choose to share or say in this forum, I do realize that the meaningful interactions can indeed lead to personal growth.
----------------------------------------------------------
To all:
I would love to share my personal thoughts about this post, the only I reason I haven't up to this point is that I have been terribly busy with work and my education....but I am going to take the time out now to do so, albeit a summarized version of what I would like to say.

The following is a very summarized version of my beliefs, which of course I view as the truth.  I do not know all things and therefore I do not profess to understand all truth....if you have any questions or comments I would love to share them (please forgive any grammatical errors):

I believe in God...the perfect being who organizes matter and intelligence.  The being that resides in the ETERNAL NOW that Robert Bruce talks about.  The being that commands us to grow and become perfected.  I believe this being is *Eloheim, which is the name for God that originally appeared at the beginning of the Old Testament.  Eloheim means "Gods"- therefore I believe we have a God of this world/universe, and I worship Him but I know there are other Gods.

I believe this God knows and loves each and everyone of us, and while He knows all things, from the beginning to the end, he has and is giving us experiences to test us and allow us to gain knowledge that we may one day become perfect...and create worlds and intelligences, just like He does.  I believe God is a perfected man and that Jesus Christ, our elder brother if you will, was the most advanced spirit in the pre-existence.  By pre-existence I mean that I believe that this life is a continuation of another life, and in the life before this one, we had only our subtle body, our spirit body, and then we chose to come to this planet and receive a physical body.  

We are here, in the "school of hard life experience", as Bruce puts it, in order to experience duality and to know the bitter from the sweet.  Christ, being the only man who ever lived a perfect life, after having taken upon himself all the mistakes and pain that man caused by sinning (sin= without God, separation from God) was re-united with a perfected physical body.  I believe that we will all be re-united (resurrected) with a perfected physical body because of what Christ did for us.  (And it is my personal belief that we can use this physical body in ways we cannot now, ie. travel instantaneously, etc. like we do in the astral, only that we can transcend and descend through any dimensional level...anyway, I don't want to get off track here).

Therefore everyone is "saved" regardless of whether they believe in Christ or not, there is NO HELL in the traditional sense for sinners and non-believers.  Everyone is eternal and besides a select few, almost no one really, all will experience a wonderful existence, one so wonderful we cannot imagine (unless you have transcended to the higher dimensional levels and had a glimpse at them).

BUT there is a difference between being saved and gaining ETERNAL LIFE.  Eternal life is the way God lives, in the eternal now.  Although He, and dare I say She (we believe in eternal companionship) are perfect and all powerful, the Gods never cease to grow in glory and power and happiness and knowledge because they continue to organize intelligence and matter, both subtle matter and the physical matter we know, in order to create worlds for future beings like us...to test and try them, and to give them the chance to become perfect through their decisions.

I understand that many of you might be saying "man, this guy is crazy", but I can tell you this much: I have had experiences, not lectures or theological B.S. that lead me to not only believe, but to have knowledge of these things.  I guess I can put it this way, if you believe that what people belief is their reality, then I like my reality.  I think you get what you want out of life/existence.  

I love to think about the eternities.  I know we live forever.  I have lived outside my body, and I have had glimpses of what it's going to be like when I leave this corruptible body for the last time and move on.  We all move on, we just have to ask ourselves why and to where.

I don't know you all, but I love you all.  We are all one, yet we are all individuals...and will be forever, that's part of the way it is.  There are certain laws of existence that even God didn't make up, but I believe He governs and organizes perfectly because He is perfect.  All human beings, regardless of sex and creed and race are His children and can become like Him.

Thank you for respecting my beliefs.
-Daniel

-------------------------------------------
*The Gods are Eloheim
J.S. circa 1830
"The word comes from Ancient Hebrew, and needs some explanation.
"Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many; and that makes a plurality of Gods, in spite of the whims of all men. Without a revelation, I am not going to give them the knowledge of the God of heaven.
You know and I testify that Paul had no allusion to the heathen gods. I have it from God, and get over it if you can. I have a witness of the Holy Ghost, and a testimony that Paul had no allusion to the heathen gods in the text. I will show from the Hebrew Bible that I am correct, and the first word shows a plurality of Gods; and I want the apostates and learned men to come here and prove to the contrary,  if they can. An unlearned boy must give you a little Hebrew. Berosheit baurau Eloheim ait aushamayeen vehau auraits, rendered by King James' translators,
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." I want to analyze the word Berosheit. Rosh, the head; Sheit, a grammatical termination; the Baith was not originally put there when the inspired man wrote it, but it has been since added by an old Jew. Baurau signifies to bring forth; Eloheim is from the word Eloi, God, in the singular number; and by adding the word heim, it renders it Gods.
It read first, "In the beginning the head of the Gods brought forth the Gods," or, as others have translated it, "The head of the Gods called the Gods together." I want to show a little learning as well as other fools
The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth. Now the learned priests and the people rage, and the heathen imagine a vain thing. If we pursue the Hebrew text further, it reads, "Berosheit baurau Eloheim ait aashamayeen vehau auraits"     "The head one of the Gods said, Let us make a man in our own image."
I once asked a learned Jew, "If the Hebrew language compels us to render all words ending in heim in the plural, why not render the first Eloheim plural?" He replied, "That is the rule with few exceptions; but in this case it would ruin the Bible." He acknowledged I was right.
I came here to investigate these things precisely "


----------------------------------------------------


fides quaerens intellectum

[Mobius]

Hi all

Thanks James for wording that a little more tactfully & diplomatically than I. What you wrote is closer to what I was thinking, but somehow I sounded (to me) a little too aggressive, which was not my intention.

PW, I'm sorry, you are right, this IS only chat . Like James, I would much prefer to see YOUR own opinion on a particular matter. I know that sometimes it's impractical to paraphrase a book excerpt & it's easier to just post it & let people read.

I don't enjoy having a go at people I like, so thanks PW for not taking it badly. Choosing to skip the thread entirely is what I should have done, like you said, but unfortunately, it's not in my nature. "We look to Buddha" would have drawn the same reaction, I can't help myself.

Good journeys all

Mobius

[PeacefulWarrior]

Mobius-
You're a great person and I always enjoy your thoughts.  It's great that people with different ideas and beliefs can interact through technology and I think it provides the possibility to learn and grow.  Although we may differ in some big ways, I think we do agree on many things...


fides quaerens intellectum

[James S]

quote:Originally posted by PeacefulWarrior:

I understand that many of you might be saying "man, this guy is crazy", but I can tell you this much: I have had experiences, not lectures or theological B.S. that lead me to not only believe, but to have knowledge of these things.  I guess I can put it this way, if you believe that what people belief is their reality, then I like my reality.  I think you get what you want out of life/existence.  

I love to think about the eternities.  I know we live forever.  I have lived outside my body, and I have had glimpses of what it's going to be like when I leave this corruptible body for the last time and move on.  We all move on, we just have to ask ourselves why and to where.

Daniel,

This tells me more about who you are and what you believe than the whole of your introductory posting on this topic.

This is GREAT!!!

This is what it's all about!

James.

[PeacefulWarrior]

Thank you.  I really mean that.  In the future I will make it a point to, when I paste things into posts, give my personal ideas about it.


fides quaerens intellectum

[Cylentpanthur]

First of all, I have to say that this kind of discussion facinates me, and I love the fact that I can come here to find it. Being still young as I am, it's difficult to start these kind of things among my friends, seeing as death, God, and the afterlife are not common topics. I wonder some times why topics such as these cause such heated duscussions. Even here, where they are thankfully civilized and people do not resort to name calling, conversations on these topics are very active. My position on these things is difficult at best. I am not religious, but I do consider myself a spiritual person. I grew up mormon, and tried wiccan for a short while. I suppose my ultimate question is what people think is the "trunk", to refer to blossom's post. What drives us to find God, or Bhudda, or the Goddess, or something higher? Why do we have such a need to connect to something greater than ourselves? I don't know exactly what I'm trying to ask, but this is a start. I don't know if I should start another thread, but the people that have been talking on this one seem the kind of people who could form some sort of answer. Thank you.

MEOW http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_sleepy.gif" border=0>

[Mobius]

Hi Cylentpanthur

I think all of us in here have that trouble of not being able to seriously discuss this issue of death, religion & the existence of God/s. Either we are all half smart for coming here & asking questions or participating in discussions, or we are a bunch of odd balls for daring to acknowledge that one day we will DEFINATELY die & wanting to know more than that, I prefer to think of option one.

IMO, therein lies the question that has spawned a multitude of religions, cults & cultures & even this site. If we definately die, well, what are we exactly? What were we before we are now? If there is nothing after our physical form ceases to be, why has there been so many reports of ghosts, apparitions, visions, voices & a mind continueing to exist after death for as long as written records go back?

Something has obviously existed for as long as human memory exists to question this or to believe there is more to us than these physical bodies we are in, as we know religions & worship of the cosmos etc has existed for as long as intelligent man has. If absolutely nothing had happened after each person had died through the centuries & no visions or phenomena occured, we would not have the many different bibles & religions we have today.

So how did all these various cultures operating independantly of each other, all come up with similar themes of a soul & life after death & various Gods?

I grew up in a christian/catholic family & went to catholic schools most of my school years. I saw the hypocracies & double standards of the system & realised that either there isn't a God, as his/her/it's laws are fairly easy to break, or that these people & I were there to uphold an image of how I/we/they wanted others to see me/us as. Regardless of how I/ we/they behaved when out of view of our religous peers.

After leaving religion behind, I decided to read as many different bibles from as many different religions as I could. After wading my way through multiple religions, I discovered that they all said very much the same things about interacting peacefully with other people & getting along. They just pointed out however, that it is because of THEIR prophet, savouir, saint, God etc. that this is so or you will be better off acknowledging THIS God.

I'm not against religions, I just think all the good things you are supposed to do & say should be done/ said to those closest to you first & prove that you are living this way of life or having this belief. Then you can go out & show/tell people how good you are, & it will be the truth & not an image for the sake of being considered a peaceful or good person, when in reality, you are using that image as a deceptive front, to hide from others your true nature.

With the advent of the internet & the absence of information destroying wars, the amount of information & the ease of access has meant more & more people are chasing up the sources of their various religions they are part of, & most don't like what they find.

People are starting to look for the answers without the religous speils attached, & so we find ourselves on sites like this one. A melting pot for independant ideas & theories, not just one. Regardless of all of our backgrounds, beliefs & religions, we all have this site in common, I think that's great.

Good journeys all

Mobius

[cainam_nazier]

Just on a side note I feel the need to spit this out.

  Being a Libra I almost always see all sides of an argument.  And for the most part I see an argument growing here, although so far aside from 2 comments, has atleast been gentlemanly (sp?).  I am not a Christian, I don't know what catagory I fall into, should one feel the need to catagorize.  And yes honestly I get annoyed when I hear too much religious rambling wether its on tv, the radio, or the internet.  And some times I like to start up with what I lable "fanatics", people all into any religion they know very little about.
  But PeacefulWarrior is not one of these people.  Yes he is deeply involved in his religion but he knows a considerable amount about it, or at least it seems that way to me.  I also do not think that this topic was created to argue the existance of god, or the amount you read about the topic, but rather posted for the benifite of other like minded individuals.  So why can it not be left at that.

  "There is a wonderful thing about reading, listening, or watching anything.  If you don't like it you can always stop."

David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.
http://www.prepaidliving.com/vip/David127385

[Frank]

To be honest, I really enjoy these kinds of discussions and love the novelty of being able to actually communicate with people of often wildly differing religious beliefs in an intelligent and informed way. Though there is the other side of it, where the moment someone crosses the line (as I think about it) and starts trying to preach to me, then I just switch off. No matter who or what it is, I just switch off to the point where the person in question would get more response talking to a brick wall. But Dan's not like that. In my opinion he makes a valued contribution to this BBS and long may he do so.

Yours,
Frank

[PeacefulWarrior]

Sometimes the objectivity, open-mindedness, intelligence and general "goodness" of the members of this site can be, uh.... shocking.  You must admit that I took a risk with this post.  I have been around here a while and I have associated myself with non-religous but spiritually aware people for many years, therefore I fully understand what kind of commotion a post like this CAN make...but I also understand that if someone is truly tolerant, intelligent and open then they will not only allow but appreciate the contributions of ever poster.

Some may label me as a "Christian-mystic" or might even just write me off as someone who has discovered that there's more to reality than dogmatic religous beliefs but just can't let go of all of it.  I don't really consider myself to belong to either of these categories....although I wouldn't be offended if someone were to call me a Christian-mystic because in many senses that fits me.  What I really want to be called, besides a desciple of Christ, is a TRUTH SEEKER.

I want to thank those individuals in here, namely Frank and Cainam, for their kind and objective comments.   I know these two guys most definetly don't consider themselves to be religous, but they are two of the most spiritually minded people I have ever had the opportunity to exchange ideas with and I know they (like almost everyone else here) are trudging up the path of truth and enlightenment (<--is that a word?)
-------------------------------------------------
Ok- if you are sick of this thread, you can stop reading here, because I am about to dive back in....

First of all, I cannot impress upon anyone how incredibly frustrating it is to be a "religous" person who actually despises the word "religous" for a myriad of reasons.  It really frustrates me when I do something selfless or kind and a co-worker or peer says, "Oh, I get it...you did that because you are "religous"..."  I want to shout at them and say, "NO!  I did it because it was the RIGHT thing to do."  Religion?  What does that mean anyway.  Catholic?  Mormon?  Astral Projector?  What?!!!  None of that means much to me.  What means something is TRUTH.  I believe in TRUTH.  I believe that there are many dimensions, many perspectives, etc.  but there is an OBJECTIVE REALITY...and the best way to find it is to find yourSELF and to know the NATURE of GOD.  

We are all at different points in our progression...."religion", "belief systems" are mostly social institutions that have some underlying metaphysical truth(s) to them.  Unfortunately most people, especially leaders, use them as vehicles of control, deception, etc.  That's why it's so hard to be religous, especially Christian, because you turn on the TV and see Christianity being used as a vehicle of capitalism...or war.  




fides quaerens intellectum

[PeacefulWarrior]

The following info is taken from the website www.whyprophets.com,
a site created by an LDS individual and some of his friends.  I am posting this because I think most of this is, frankly, the truth:

"Warning!
This page is very basic. It aims at finding a common point of agreement by avoiding religious terminology. It is abstract and generalized. Please do not think that Mormons normally speak this way! I can already foresee emails saying "this proves that Mormons worship a race of sci-fi space aliens!" No. This is simply abstract speculation, based on current ideas of reality. This is not official LDS doctrine. It is not based on revelation. It is simply my own understanding. I take responsibility for any errors.

There is Always Something Greater:
There are few (if any) limits to scale in this universe. Whatever you think of there is always something smaller, or bigger, or stronger, or weaker, or nearer, or further. Whenever someone says "this is all there is," it is a safe bet that they will ultimately be proven wrong. So, it is probably arrogant foolishness to assume that the humans we see are the most intelligent and powerful beings in the universe or beyond. The numbers in cosmology and metaphysics are mind-boggling. If there is one superior race, then given all the billions of planets in each of the endless galaxies, in endless history and infinite possible universes, there must be vast numbers of such races.


There must be vastly superior beings:
So, it is reasonable to assume that there are more intelligent beings than us somewhere. How much more intelligent? Well, just look at the present acceleration of progress in our technology. If a task is sufficiently important, how long does it take to find a solution? A year? A hundred years? A thousand? One obvious task is "overcoming death." Like time travel, if only a single intelligent race solves this one, the potential for accelerated development is fantastic. Another obvious task is "increasing intelligence." Somewhere in the infinite possibilities of reality, this has almost certainly happened. If we see "the big bang" as the boundary of time and space, then another obvious task is to somehow overcome that as well.


Can a superior being progress?
A suspicious reader may be saying "this is approaching blasphemy – he is going to say that God is an evolved and evolving (i.e. limited) being." No. I am not. I am simply saying at this stage that there must be vastly superior beings. No more, no less. But there is the question of "What do you do if you can do anything?" Some people might take this as an argument for pessimism – that life must be ultimately pointless. But that is not a rational conclusion. Just as (from our perspective) there is always some greater intelligence, so there is always some greater purpose. Supreme beings would have their own view on what was needed.


What is meant by progress?
Does progress in this context mean "getting better" or "doing more things"? The idea of a superior being "getting better" is plainly false (see the next point). But the idea of progress as "achieving more and more things" is unavoidable. Intelligence, by its definition, means making things better. And this is probably the clue. A supreme being cannot make himself or herself better. But they can make inferior beings better.


They Are Infinite and Eternal:
Do vastly superior and deathless equate to infinite and eternal? Yes:


To all intents and purposes, how could we tell the difference? For us to worry over a vastly superior being is illogical – our mental concepts just cannot cope. Whenever you double your intelligence, you radically change how you see things. Imagine doubling your intelligence a thousand times. For you or I to judge such a being is foolish in the extreme.
The very idea of limited intelligence is probably a bi-product of our own limited intelligence. This is a big topic, so I will just leave it at that.
If someone's development is accelerating continually, it is absurd to speak of them in terms of limitations. Compare intelligence to velocity. Once you approach the velocity of light, all the normal assumptions either break down or become irrelevant. To say a vastly superior being could make a mistake is like saying that someone traveling at the speed of light might be overtaken by someone else. They won't.


What is Intelligence?
Up to now, I have not defined intelligence. I will now do so. (Note to LDS readers: I mean "intelligence" as an attribute of living things, not as life itself.) Intelligence means the efficient use of resources where a) "efficient use" means resources can be used for more – to go further, create more, obey our will more closely, or whatever and b) "resources" mean pretty much anything that can be used – objects, knowledge, or whatever. If two people have the same information, the more intelligent one makes better use of it. So, for example, where you or I see random chaos, a more intelligent being sees a pattern and can predict its future behaviour. Where you or I can make flour and eggs and sugar into a nice cake, a more intelligent person can make the most delicious thing you have ever imagined, or use it to attract and develop a wild bird colony, or treat it chemically to create a life saving drug, or rocket fuel, or whatever.


One Supreme Being or Many?
At this point we should maybe stop using the plural. The most intelligent beings will of course work together in perfect harmony (because conflict is inefficient). Also, an intelligent being will not have two leaders where one will do (because duplication is inefficient). So, from our point of view, we need only refer to one supreme being. N.B. Those brought up in a market economy may answer that conflict and duplication are essential to competition, and competition is essential to progress. But a little thought will show that competition is only a useful strategy where knowledge (and hence choices, desires, etc.) is limited. This is another big topic, so I will leave it for now.


A White Male Supreme Being?:
This level of detail is irrelevant to the big issues, and cannot be predicted purely from logic. If a supreme being chooses to reveal his or her presence as male, female, white, black, or blue with three heads, that does not change their nature as supreme. It is tempting to say that "a supreme being is beyond such things, even if they choose to reveal themselves as human that does not mean they really are." But that position is not logical. There is no rational reason for believing that an abstract force is somehow superior to a being with a fixed form. If a supreme being chooses to reveal himselves as a certain form, then by definition that is the intelligent thing to believe. If a supreme being does not reveal such details, that is the end of the matter.


The Supreme Being Has a Plan For Us:
We cannot say exactly what a vastly superior being would do, because we do not see things as they do. But we can draw some general conclusions.


First, destroying is far easier than creating (and has less potential), so it is fair to assume that superior beings would tend to create rather than destroy.
Second, manipulating lifeless forces is no big deal. To achieve even more (e.g. to be more intelligent) they must work with other intelligent beings.
Third, if being intelligent is itself intelligent, then so is making others become more intelligent.


So, supreme beings probably create, they deal with other intelligent beings, and they help these others to become more intelligent. But are they interested in us? Of course. By definition, an intelligent being does not waste resources. Humans have potential and are therefore a resource.


The Supreme Being Loves Us:
Given that a supreme being could choose to do anything, they must enjoy what they do. And they choose to help us to become intelligent like them. Think about that. They are happy. They want us to be happy. They are very interested in us. Making us happy makes them happy. Sounds like a good definition of love.


The Logic of a Saviour
See also – Reasons for the Atonement of Christ

We Are Subject to Error and Death:
This is self evident. We all die. We all do things that are destructive and do not achieve good things. Given our limited intelligence, there is not much we can do about this. Errors are particularly problematic. Errors are not just abstract. Wrong decisions, by definition, have bad results. Who picks up the pieces?

How Can a Supreme Being Communicate With Us?
It is all very well recognizing there is a supreme being, but how does such a being communicate? If they just appeared in a flash of light, there would be no development of intelligence. There is no intellectual stretching when we just do what is blindingly obvious (e.g. whatever the supreme being says). Even if they left us with freedom, we would likely be too scared to take any chances. So, does the supreme being leave intellectual clues? Maybe, but that's not the whole story. Our intelligence is currently limited, so it is quite likely that we would make a mess of this. Any intellectual test has a threshold that some well-meaning mortals will not pass. The only practical way to teach us is to send another human who does it right. The intelligent ones will recognize this to some extent (or at least have the tolerance not to condemn this teacher for some illogical reasoning).

Appendix: Classical Proofs of the Existence of God
Classical arguments for the existence of God do more harm than good. First, they are so weak that they just provide ammunition for atheists. Second, they avoid the only real source of proof – direct revelation. In contrast, the approach outlined on this page has the following advantages over the classical arguments:

This makes sense, and they do not.
It leads directly to personal revelation (pray and find out for yourself), the only way to really know for sure.
This is based on common observations, not abstract tricks. Although this proof is only as strong as those assumptions, the alternative is to talk of theoretically perfect and infinite concepts. I see no evidence that any of us really understands the concepts of "perfect" or "infinite," hence the errors in previous "proofs." In contrast, if we are certain of anything, we are certain that, for example, there is always something bigger.
Augustine's Attempt at a Logical Proof

Eternal truths (e.g. geometry) can only be understood by illumination from God. Therefore there is a God:
Unfortunately, it is possible to arrive at some eternal truths (e.g. that 1 + 1 = 2) without any apparent inspiration, but simply by counting. Now I personally believe that inspiration (of some kind) is essential, but I do not see that Augustine has demonstrated that. I doubt that it could be demonstrated in a simple yet also watertight fashion.

Anselm's Attempt at a Logical Proof

There must be an absolute, final, greatest, self-existent thing:
This depends on two basic premises: (1) a person can conceive of something perfect, and (2) physical is more perfect than conceptual. Perhaps both are true but I think there is plenty of room for doubt.

Aquinas' Attempts at a Logical Proof

There has to be a prime mover – an ultimate cause:
Even if this could be logically demonstrated, it does not do much good, as it pushes God so far back in time that he becomes irrelevant.

The universe is so well organized that it must have had a creator:
This has some appeal, but was never a very good proof. If we compare the universe to an animal (which is also well designed), we can imagine that another universe could have given birth to it, and so the original creator could be an exceedingly long way away.

Scotus' Attempt at a Logical Proof

He suggested a complex variation on the "prime mover" idea, placing secondary causes between us and God:
But the more stages there are to a proof, the more likely that one of them is mistaken, and the less useful it is to the ordinary person. Scotus' proof (though I have not studied it in depth) seems too similar to those that have gone before.

Descartes' Attempts at a Logical Proof

We can conceive of perfect being, and we must have got the idea from somewhere:
I am not convinced of the premise. Do we really conceive of a perfect being? Or just a being who appears perfect to us? A reliance on logical proofs can prove only one thing: that these great theologians did not have much confidence in God's ability to reveal himself directly. They are evidence that the church of their day was in apostasy, and did not have the gifts of the spirit.

The Bottom Line
The gospel of Jesus Christ is rational. Indeed, when looked at logically, it becomes inevitable."

A Supreme Human Example:
What would this ideal teacher do? The only practical way to show that death can be overcome is to do it. The only practical way to show that perfection is possible is to be perfect. It is no good sending a teacher who is just "pretty good." They have to be perfect. Otherwise, we may see the good, and (in our ignorance) copy their faults.


Hope and Evidence:
Being intelligent means making the best use of what we have (see above). In other words, we do not wait until things are handed to us – we are hungry for truth. This means taking chances, but not too many chances. It means balancing the evidence (which we may misunderstand) with our hopes that it means what we think (which hopes may be unfounded). Intelligence means balancing hope and evidence. That (in my opinion) is the most useful definition of faith.


fides quaerens intellectum

[kmd242]

PeacefulWarrior

Your viewpoint is interesting, and i think you are entitled to it. Props to you who can demostrate how diverse spirituality really is. And that my friend is the basic crux of organized religion for me. People always have different viewpoints/beliefs and the fact that organized religion shuns this, and tells the masses how to react or deal with certain issues pretty much cancels out why humanity is such a unique animal.
You also give a great example for the argument of physical versus spiritual. I have an idea that the basic unit that fuels all of our disscussions here in the forum is the inherant energy that is in our bodies. This energy can be manipulated/transfered just as any energy we find in the natural world. Of course, there are some people who have a "god-given" (pun intended talent for this, but i believe with practice and hard work (as with anything) everyone can achieve some postitive results from it. Its not a belief, its not miracle, its not being blessed, its nature taking its course. But we are so over exposed to religion/media that some people are forced to think that this, the most natural of processes, has negative implications. Or they are so caught up with material lifestyles, some dont recognize what they are truly capable of. I think we could all seriously benefit from Astral Dynamics in ways that can hardly be counted. From a simple stimulating technique to refresh yourself from that long day at work, all the way up to concious projection and healing. If we could put the spirituality issue aside for a second and look at AD from a scientifical standpoint. The energy is there in your body, and energy cannot be dissapated. All its waiting for is you to be its guide.
(im stopping here because i could go on about how religion is only there to ease peoples fear of dying, but then nobody would read my post cuz its too long /hinthint