Bush Sucks.

[Makaveli]

Well most criminals probably aren't going to turn in their guns in the event of a gun ban it will mostly be law abiding citizens that are disarmed.  Guns are widely available so there will always be a black market for criminals to get their weapons.  

England sounds like a nice place and I'm sure it's not being overrun by criminals but it appears the gun ban has not lowered crime.  

With this sort of thing it's violent crime that gets looked at.  Most of the time statistics on gun crime looks at the murder rate in ways like per 100,000 people.  Other types of violent crime like rape and robbery are also analyzed.      

Forget the internet propaganda. Watch the news.

A statistical analysis would be much more reliable.  Like I already said most instances of self defense with guns do not involve violence and that type of case rarely gets attention.

[Leyla]

A statistical analysis would be much more reliable.

Don't you go backing down on me. You can lie with statistics.

Are you afraid to put your "80 to 1" statistic to the test?

I'm not going to let other people tell me what to believe. I'm going to see it with my own two eyes.

[Makaveli]

Believe what you want but what is on the news is hardly an accurate representation of crime and self defense numbers in this country.  Statistically studying crime is not perfect but it can give a far more accurate stats.  The news is more likely to report a drive by shooting than it is to report someone stopping a mugger with a gun and ending the situation non-violently.

[Leyla]

What the hell?

Statistics can be manipulated to say whatever you want.

The local news reports every shooting and every killing. I'm trying to find out how many innocent people we lose in gun deaths.

You're chickening out on me because you know who's going to win this one.

[Makaveli]

Have fun but it will prove nothing.  It's convenient to say that stats could all just be a lie but statistical analysis is at least a scientific way of getting stats.  Watching the news is not a scientific way to get stats.  The news reports what they think people will find most interesting for ratings.

[Leyla]

It will prove everything.

Every shooting and every killing makes the news.

That's what gets ratings.

[Makaveli]

And most cases of self defense with firearms involve no shooting or killing.  

I'm shocked that you are suggesting watching the news is more reliable than scientific studies on crime.

[Leyla]

most cases of self defense with firearms involve no shooting or killing.

I know of several people who were robbed at gun point with no shooting, who were held at gun point by their jealous husband with no shooting, and who were threatened by high-school thugs with a gun to their head with no shooting.

None of those made the news either.

But what does make the news, is the actual killings.

[Leyla]

By the way, none of these statistics you named were from "scientific studies."

They were from Pro-Gun web sites.

[Makaveli]

I know of several people who were robbed at gun point with no shooting, who were held at gun point by their jealous husband with no shooting, and who were threatened by high-school thugs with a gun to their head with no shooting.

None of those made the news either.

But what does make the news, is the actual killings.

That's right, and if it was reported to the police it would have been included in crime statistics in the area.  Killing is the main thing that makes the news not non-violent defense.

[RT]

The theory is that "if guns were outlawed, only outlaws would have guns!"

This is totaly crap.

Actually, you are wrong unless you have stats to back your claims up I wouldn't make statements like that.

I am in law enforcement hear in the US. And I am the last person that would want more guns on the streets, but if they are going to be on the streets I would rather have law abiding citizen with a permit carrying and owning them then a bunch of criminals doing as they please.

Police are in most cases not their to protect people when a crime is being perpetrated they only are there to take a report and then maybe with all the crimes that were committed they may have time to get to yours if it is higher on the investigation list.

Please do be naive and live behind rose colored glasses.

Most people in the world are generally good people, but there are a small percentage that don't give a sh*t about yours or my logical way of thinking and living.  In fact these people are sociopaths with no compassion and would kill, torture, stab, shoot, rape or use whatever they can find to make your life a living hell or end......they live in a different world all together.  Most people that preach love all people, peace, love thy neighbor not matter what they do, turn the other cheek mentality have not had a sociopath pray on them and/or commit a heinous act of unspeakable crimes against their families.  

If you are looking and expecting police and the government to protect you all the time, that is naive. Just remember who is the police? Government? It is people. And many times in history and in the world things get out of balance and when they do who will protect you and your loved ones?

I have seen most anti-gun, anti-violence, and loving people turn to protecting themselves after an extremely bad experience.

I wish the world could be kisses and hugs and fantasy lands that most people view the world from, but it is not that way for most of the world.

It is OK to preach but unless you truly have been in the trenches and in the real world of criminals, but I understand there is what is called blind ignorance in the world and no matter what you truly know to be factual and try to convey, there will be the other side that will never know the real truths because they have never experienced what they are talking about and don't want to know.


Regards,

RT

[Makaveli]

By the way, none of these statistics you named were from "scientific studies."

They were from Pro-Gun web sites.

They were posted on a pro-gun website that was citing stats from valid sources that were not related to any pro-gun organization.  The stats I posted before were from the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology and Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig who were anti-gun researchers from the Clinton administration.  

The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology for example  is not affiliated with the NRA or gunowners.org.

[Leyla]

*sigh* my point is, non-violent defense doesn't make the news, but niether do non violent threats. So they cancel each other out.

One thing that deeply effected me in England, was that all the time I was there there wasn't a single shooting or shooting death on the news.

There, RT, is your huggy-kissy fantasy land.

It made me realize how much I had been desensitized. I think most of us in the US are desinsitized to gun-violence.

We accept it as part of life. "So what there's a new killing every time I turn on the TV. That's normal isn't it?"

But while I was there I realized, it doesn't have to be that way.

[Makaveli]

Unlike the news the advantage of statistical analysis is it can give a good representation of all violent or non-violent crime and crime or defense.  

It's not normal that we have so many killings this country we have some serious social issues.

[Leyla]

Look Makaveli, a gun for you is a toy.

You don't want anyone to take away your toy and ruin your fun.

You need to grow up and realize a gun is not just your fun toy. It causes terror, horror, and lots of bloody violence and death.

[Leyla]

And "statistical analysis" from a pro-gun website doesn't count.

[Makaveli]

It is fun to shoot but there are still better reasons to have guns like for protection.  Or how about the decrease in violent crime that states that have allowed concealed weapons permits have seen.    

The study was not done by the pro-gun website they were merely posting the results of a study from a non-affiliated source.  Research from a pro-gun organization like the NRA or an anti-gun organization can't be trusted since it's then much more likely that the results could be biased to favor their cause.  For the last time the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology is not affiliated with the NRA or gunowners.org and the Clinton anti-gun researchers from the National Institute of Justice certainly weren't affiliated with anything pro-gun.  There is a pretty big difference between a website reporting a list of facts and findings from non-affiliated sources and who does the actual research.

[RT]

And "statistical analysis" from a pro-gun website doesn't count.

I would have to agree with your statement, but on the other side neither are stats from anti-gun site.

I myself wish that one day none of us would have the need any type of weapons to protect ourselves. I would love my children to grow up in a world that was crimeless, compassionate, non-corrupt, and everyone was happy and not afraid.  

In the world we live in showing love or compassion is a sign of weakness and called mushy for the most part. Those in society that claim to be peaceful and loving are not that at all, but true hypocrites.  I think that actions speak louder than words. It very easy to hurt someone, but the love or heal that persons takes strength. Lets hope the world will get their oneday.

I don't watch any new or TV in the US it is all negative.  I have enough I see everyday and don't need the worthless maggots at the news stations trying to stir emotions.  

I don't also think we can hide from the crime, and all the bad in the world, but on the other hand I am not exactly sure how to stop it. Does anyone truly know? Maybe we all need to just lay down and let the criminal elements rape, torture, rob then kill all of the good people, then all that will be left is a world full of scum.  I guess I don't have the answer, but I like to think there is some ultimate answer. I am not being sarcastic, but just offering a ridiculous thought.

RT

[Leyla]

The 42 to 1 is an FBI statistic.

Gun enthusiasts claim it is "false" because it includes suicides and accidents.

Suicide is not an act of self defense. In fact, it is just the opposite.

Accidental shootings are just as tragic, especially when the victim is someones young curious child.

[Makaveli]

The 43:1 statistic isn't an FBI stat it was done by a guy named Kellerman in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1986.  There were many criticisms of this study about how severely flawed the methodology is.  I've haven't heard anyone claim that suicide is self defense it has nothing to do with it and that would make no sense to say that.

The biggest problem I see is it ignored non-violent instances of defense with firearms which ignores the vast majority of cases of defense with guns.  The author also admitted it ignored cases where the criminal was injured by a gun.  In the study the majority of the deaths were from suicide which doesn't count as a violent crime against a victim.  Most of the other deaths besides for suicides were between felons, drug dealers, violent spouses, or involved criminal activity.  Out of 397 total deaths 41 were from homicide a lot of which was from criminal activities.  Other criticisms are that the study only looked at 2 non-random cities and it had an inaccurate estimation of gun ownership.    

One criticism that pointed out how flawed it was used stats from same area and it looked at violent deaths not involving firearms.  The ratio of violent deaths without guns compared to self defense killings without guns came out to 99:1 while the ratio of deaths involving guns was 43:1.

[Makaveli]

Despite America's increasing amount of firearms we can see that violent crime is slowly decreasing in the U.S and things appear to be getting a little better.  You can view the statistics on the FBI's website here: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

In 1990 the murder and manslaughter rate was 9.4 per 100,000 people.  In 2003 it was 5.7 per 100,000 people.

[Leyla]

Oh  yeah. It's reeeeaaal safe around here:

Local Gun Deaths

July 17, 2005, 11:01PM
Security guard shot dead in fight outside nightclub
A security guard was fatally shot early Sunday during an altercation outside a northeast nightclub, police said.

July 18, 2005, 8:07AM
Teen wounded in drive-by shooting at apartments
A 17-year-old is recovering from gunshot wounds suffered in a drive-by shooting at a southwest apartment complex Sunday evening.

July 19, 2005, 1:26PM
Officer shoots car-burglary suspect outside his home. A suspected car burglar is in very critical condition this morning after breaking into an SUV near an off-duty police officer's home.

(Here's one for your team. Makes me feel a little funny though, because it wasn't in self defense. Don't get me wrong, I think car thieves should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law- but this man was judge, jury and executioner. )

July 19, 2005, 6:20AM
Man gunned down at shopping center
A fatal shooting in front of a southwest shopping center late Monday may have been set off by an earlier altercation between the victim and his assailant. ``The argument escalated into gunfire.''

July 20, 2005, 6:13PM
Gunman shot by police dies in surgery police shot and killed a man in southwest  early today after he reportedly threatened a wrecker driver and then officers with an automatic pistol.

(Man freaks out with automatic weapon and cops shoot him. We've probably all freaked out after having our car towed. I know I have. Without the gun he probably would have slept on it and worked it out in the morning. But now he is dead. The irony is, he probably bought it to protect his family.)

[RT]

Oh  yeah. It's reeeeaaal safe around here:

Local Gun Deaths

July 17, 2005, 11:01PM
Security guard shot dead in fight outside nightclub
A security guard was fatally shot early Sunday during an altercation outside a northeast nightclub, police said.

July 18, 2005, 8:07AM
Teen wounded in drive-by shooting at apartments
A 17-year-old is recovering from gunshot wounds suffered in a drive-by shooting at a southwest apartment complex Sunday evening.

July 19, 2005, 1:26PM
Officer shoots car-burglary suspect outside his home. A suspected car burglar is in very critical condition this morning after breaking into an SUV near an off-duty police officer's home.

(Here's one for your team. Makes me feel a little funny though, because it wasn't in self defense. Don't get me wrong, I think car thieves should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law- but this man was judge, jury and executioner. )

July 19, 2005, 6:20AM
Man gunned down at shopping center
A fatal shooting in front of a southwest shopping center late Monday may have been set off by an earlier altercation between the victim and his assailant. ``The argument escalated into gunfire.''

July 20, 2005, 6:13PM
Gunman shot by police dies in surgery police shot and killed a man in southwest  early today after he reportedly threatened a wrecker driver and then officers with an automatic pistol.

(Man freaks out with automatic weapon and cops shoot him. We've probably all freaked out after having our car towed. I know I have. Without the gun he probably would have slept on it and worked it out in the morning. But now he is dead. The irony is, he probably bought it to protect his family.)

This is all happening in Bangladesh? Wow and I thought the US had problems.

[Leyla]

Heh heh heh  *winks*

 

[Leyla]

Wow. A whole tree days without a killing and then this.

July 24, 2005, 11:04PM

Girl, 2, critical after shooting
Toddler was hit in a flare-up over a broken window

A small girl remained in the hospital in critical condition Sunday from a gunshot wound inflicted by a man who had confronted a group of teenagers after one sent a football crashing through the window of his southwest apartment, officials said.

These are the ones I hate the worst. If only he'd had a baseball bat, or a knife, at least he'd have got who he was aiming for.