Astral Projection & The Bible...

[David Warner]

Gordy,

You've a way with words and nailed it to be exact!

Prayers, affirmations, work, persistence, believing, and hard work will pay off fruitful projections. It all takes energy, 24/7 devotion and praying to your creator.

I can't understand how the church and society can twist and turn the meaning of astral projection to evil and darkness. What you had said in the last chapter of Daniel about latter days is definite "the astral planes" and survival of physical consciousness. And then to take that passage to twist it to evil of astral projection....

Anytime, when I'm out and project, bare in mind if I can remember at that time (everything comes at you so quickly) I always say "Thank You God and Jesus". In one experience I was in the backyard at my mom/dads house and reprized my thanks to God and noticed a sparkle through the pine trees sun beam from sky. It was God just giving me a little 'Thank You" back..- very cool!

Tvos

[Ybom]

I have a theory that I don't fully believe yet, but it definitely applies here. No name for it, so give it a read and comment?

1a. The stories and instructions in the Bible are strictly a test in misguidance, to see if you'll follow them blindly. This would explain why several verses conflict with each other, while others don't.

1b. Maybe where things conflict and where they don't are keys to a bigger puzzle that's currently over our heads. In my opinion this is really similar to what the Bible Code was doing.

[stubborn-envelope]

I am very familiar with the Bible, though I can't always give exact verses.

There are a few places in the Bible that could be referring to astral projection or be interpreted as an OBE, such as some of the experiences recorded in Ezekiel and Revelation.

Christianity is a very diverse religion.  Fundamentalists and evangelicals do not generally believe in astral projection, and they can easily take the scriptures we may interpret as an OBE and interpret them in another way.  Liberal Christians don't seem intrigued by the subject, although there are Mystical Christians who believe in reincarnation, etc.

I have found that the Bible is a book full of wrath, murder, contradictions, and very ancient beliefs.  There are also some good things in it, too.  That's because the Bible isn't just one book; it is many books stretching over a very long period of time.

Sure, you can find some support in the Bible for OBEs, but you can find support for contradictory views in different areas of the Bible.  That's why it isn't a very good argument to say that the Bible verifies something.

Christians have different views on the Bible, too, so what is acceptable to one Christian might not be acceptable to another.

James

[Stookie]

The Bible and other books have been great guidance for centuries, but it seems like humanity is at a place where we need to start looking/finding the source that these inspirational writings point towards. Too much importance have been placed on the writings themselves, other than what is behind them. Most Bible contradictions probably come from taking it way too literally. When Christianity and the Bible was in it's early days people probably LOVED what it had to say and were extremely inspired, but over time kept analysing to the point of over-analysing until there are so many interpretations and translations and denominations that take a wonderfully simple message and turn it into fundamentalism and politics.

Even though Christianity has been the basis for my spiritual life, I feel it was books other than the bible that really made the important changes in myself, like Walden (Henry David Thoreau), the Tao Te Ching, The Tao of Pooh, Ultimate Journey, Carlos Castaneda books...

[David Warner]

Stookie,


Are you talking about Winnie The Tao of Pooh..:)
Just having a little fun there!

Here's an analogy, the problem that I see with the bible, its a 1976 TV instruction manual for the latest 2006 HD Plasma Digital Flat Screen TV. You might be able to use a few of the features but the rest is absolute.

Not saying that the bible isn't a good reference, guide yourself by and practice that message, but don't hold back on other opportunities as well.

The problem is that when humans get involved, exchange thoughts, ideas, transfer the scriptures from one language to another. Don't you think that there's going to be error.

Tvos

[Stookie]

Are you talking about Winnie The Tao of Pooh..

Actually, I am talking about Winnie the Pooh. It's a book (whose author's name I can't recall) that explains Taoism through the Pooh characters. Simplistic characters for a simplistic philosophy.

Here's an analogy, the problem that I see with the bible, its a 1976 TV instruction manual for the latest 2006 HD Plasma Digital Flat Screen TV. You might be able to use a few of the features but the rest is absolute.

Great analogy. I think the thing is to be able to integrate the bible with other teachings/books/philosophies and not limit yourself to one particular teaching. Use them all and create your own. I think that's what most people at the Astral Pulse do anyways.

[David Warner]

Stookie,

I agree about what you had said - integrate the bible with other teachings and not limit their self with one belief system.  It makes the person well rounded, wiser, gives a wider range of understanding and love.

It would be nice if others on this board could conduct a interview with their local parish and guide by astral projection with the bible. I think the results would be staggering.

Tvos

[David Warner]

Gordy,

Ironically, this last Sunday when I went to church the preacher Rob Bell at Mars hill in Grand Rapids read a passage from Daniel. If you read through the whole chapter of Daniel is references sleep, vision and God talking to Daniel.  

Here's the verses:

In the second year of his reign, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams; his mind was troubled and he could not sleep. 2 So the king summoned the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers [a] to tell him what he had dreamed. When they came in and stood before the king, 3 he said to them, "I have had a dream that troubles me and I want to know what it means. "
4 Then the astrologers answered the king in Aramaic, [c] "O king, live forever! Tell your servants the dream, and we will interpret it."

5 The king replied to the astrologers, "This is what I have firmly decided: If you do not tell me what my dream was and interpret it, I will have you cut into pieces and your houses turned into piles of rubble. 6 But if you tell me the dream and explain it, you will receive from me gifts and rewards and great honor. So tell me the dream and interpret it for me."

7 Once more they replied, "Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will interpret it."

8 Then the king answered, "I am certain that you are trying to gain time, because you realize that this is what I have firmly decided: 9 If you do not tell me the dream, there is just one penalty for you. You have conspired to tell me misleading and wicked things, hoping the situation will change. So then, tell me the dream, and I will know that you can interpret it for me."

10 The astrologers answered the king, "There is not a man on earth who can do what the king asks! No king, however great and mighty, has ever asked such a thing of any magician or enchanter or astrologer. 11 What the king asks is too difficult. No one can reveal it to the king except the gods, and they do not live among men."

12 This made the king so angry and furious that he ordered the execution of all the wise men of Babylon. 13 So the decree was issued to put the wise men to death, and men were sent to look for Daniel and his friends to put them to death.

14 When Arioch, the commander of the king's guard, had gone out to put to death the wise men of Babylon, Daniel spoke to him with wisdom and tact. 15 He asked the king's officer, "Why did the king issue such a harsh decree?" Arioch then explained the matter to Daniel. 16 At this, Daniel went in to the king and asked for time, so that he might interpret the dream for him.

17 Then Daniel returned to his house and explained the matter to his friends Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah. 18 He urged them to plead for mercy from the God of heaven concerning this mystery, so that he and his friends might not be executed with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. 19 During the night the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a vision. Then Daniel praised the God of heaven 20 and said:
      "Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever;
      wisdom and power are his.

21 He changes times and seasons;
      he sets up kings and deposes them.
      He gives wisdom to the wise
      and knowledge to the discerning.

22 He reveals deep and hidden things;
      he knows what lies in darkness,
      and light dwells with him.

23 I thank and praise you, O God of my fathers:
      You have given me wisdom and power,
      you have made known to me what we asked of you,
      you have made known to us the dream of the king."

Daniel Interprets the Dream
24 Then Daniel went to Arioch, whom the king had appointed to execute the wise men of Babylon, and said to him, "Do not execute the wise men of Babylon. Take me to the king, and I will interpret his dream for him."
25 Arioch took Daniel to the king at once and said, "I have found a man among the exiles from Judah who can tell the king what his dream means."

26 The king asked Daniel (also called Belteshazzar), "Are you able to tell me what I saw in my dream and interpret it?"

27 Daniel replied, "No wise man, enchanter, magician or diviner can explain to the king the mystery he has asked about, 28 but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in days to come. Your dream and the visions that passed through your mind as you lay on your bed are these:

29 "As you were lying there, O king, your mind turned to things to come, and the revealer of mysteries showed you what is going to happen. 30 As for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, not because I have greater wisdom than other living men, but so that you, O king, may know the interpretation and that you may understand what went through your mind.

31 "You looked, O king, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

36 "This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

39 "After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

44 "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.
     "The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and the interpretation is trustworthy."

46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell prostrate before Daniel and paid him honor and ordered that an offering and incense be presented to him. 47 The king said to Daniel, "Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery."

48 Then the king placed Daniel in a high position and lavished many gifts on him. He made him ruler over the entire province of Babylon and placed him in charge of all its wise men. 49 Moreover, at Daniel's request the king appointed Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego administrators over the province of Babylon, while Daniel himself remained at the royal court.


What really is interesting about this the following facts:

1. So the king summoned the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers [a] to tell him what he had dreamed. So the decree was issued to put the wise men to death, and men were sent to look for Daniel and his friends to put them to death.

** The magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers were not successful in the dream interpretation **

2. During the night the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a vision. Then Daniel praised the God of heaven 20.

** Vision,Dream,Trance **

Because of Daniel interpreted the dream for King Nebuchadnezzar, lives were saved and God was praised by the king. Daniel received the vision/dream where he communicated with God. Again, a positive and not a negative channel of communication or thanking God for the vision through the dream.

So I guess if lives were saved, god communicated to Daniel through the dream this would be FACT of positive. Exploration of astral projection, trance, meditation, as long its used to honor God, serve humand kind and in the astral - No one can dispute this claim!


What would be great is if we could compile a list of verses/chapters of where all the positive/factual data is. So anytime there's debates about the bible and astral projection/dreams there will always be a reference in a sticky or perm topic

Tvos

[IequalMC2]

Tvos, I'll help if I ever find anything, or remember anything.  

A King sits on the thrown in the royal court. A dream has been disturbing him. He calls a council of the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers, word and action relays the dream. He didn't want to look like an butt.  

What happened...?

"Daniel wakes up; last night he dreamt a dream that nearly everyone dreams when there anxious. He had been gnashing his teeth in his sleep (people do that when there agitated it reflects in sleep) he interprets again, can it all be so simple? (Obviously the king has been gnashing his teeth, front teeth representing image)

Everyone forgets Daniel was a spot on smart councilor, he's not just relaying the dream, he's also giving advice on how to keep the kingdom (Invisible writing falls, A massive statue makes a statement)

That's what I think anyway, I did have a normal dream last night, but most people do.

Relax!
Blessings All-Round!
Labradorite!

comments?

[andonitxo]

I have seen writings by christians and non-christians alike who have believed that John was in an OBE state when he experienced what was written down in the book of Revelation.

Personally I don't know what to think about this, but it's an interesting idea.

In fact, the only common sense way to understand the incomprehensible Bible is from the viewpoint of an angel or an ascended master. Take that viewpoint and it gets a bit less foggy.

[Stookie]

So I guess if lives were saved, god communicated to Daniel through the dream this would be FACT of positive. Exploration of astral projection, trance, meditation, as long its used to honor God, serve humand kind and in the astral - No one can dispute this claim!

So far, I think that really has to be the best proof the bible can have to offer. Not only does it say that dream communication from God is possible, but it's just as easy to be deceived by a vision. The first astrologers/sorcerers didn't believe it was even possible for God to communicate to them. It was the faith in God that Daniel had that enabled the correct communication direct from God. Daniel tells the king the others can't do it because it's not God through them, it's them trying to do it themselves.

-----------

Something a little unrelated: Yesterday I got into a discussion about born-again Christians with my boss, who is Southern Baptist. We got to a point where he said he believed that even though all Christians will go to heaven, not everyone will be in the same place there. He said you will be judged by your deeds for Christ on earth. His exact statement - "I don't think there is any way that I'll be in the same place as Billy Graham in heaven. He's done so much more than I'll ever be able to, so his gifts in heaven will be greater than mine."

It made my jaw drop. All I could tell him is, "I've never heard anything like that before." I don't want to go to some stinking heaven where I'm still going to be on the lower rung. As a Christian I was taught that we are all equal in God's eyes - what happened to that? This is the type of Dogma that makes steam come out of my ears. I understand that from an astral/obe perspective, everyone has something different to expect after death. But from the perspective of a Christian it just seems harmful. Billy Graham is not better than me...

[Stookie]

The Daniel passage also helps explain the passages I posted earlier that discounts sorcery and astrology and the like. I think what it really means is where the source of the communication is coming from. I'm sure back then visions, dream, and clairvoyance was a much more widely accepted thing, so these verses could be written to keep people from communicating to negative energies/sources.

[David Warner]

Stookie,

I came across a web site devoted to the bible and has a excellent search database engine for keywords like dream, spirit, occult etc..

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/

When I find the time, I will devote my energy picking out the passages about dreams, spirit, stories that relate to astral projection. Definitely like to have this information on-hand when the discussion arises.

Another interesting passage in the bible about God communicating to Abraham. This shows that if God communicates to us through dreams, warns us of the danger and what is wrong/right.

Genesis 20
Abraham Deceives Abimelech

1Now Abraham moved south to the Negev and settled for a while between Kadesh and Shur at a place called Gerar. 2Abraham told people there that his wife, Sarah, was his sister. So King Abimelech sent for her and had her brought to him at his palace.
   3But one night God came to Abimelech in a dream and told him, "You are a dead man, for that woman you took is married."

   4But Abimelech had not slept with her yet, so he said, "Lord, will you kill an innocent man? 5Abraham told me, `She is my sister,' and she herself said, `Yes, he is my brother.' I acted in complete innocence!"

   6"Yes, I know you are innocent," God replied. "That is why I kept you from sinning against me; I did not let you touch her. 7Now return her to her husband, and he will pray for you, for he is a prophet. Then you will live. But if you don't return her to him, you can be sure that you and your entire household will die."

   8Abimelech got up early the next morning and hastily called a meeting of all his servants. When he told them what had happened, great fear swept through the crowd. 9Then Abimelech called for Abraham. "What is this you have done to us?" he demanded. "What have I done to you that deserves treatment like this, making me and my kingdom guilty of this great sin? This kind of thing should not be done! 10Why have you done this to us?"

   11"Well," Abraham said, "I figured this to be a godless place. I thought, `They will want my wife and will kill me to get her.' 12Besides, she is my sister--we both have the same father, though different mothers--and I married her. 13When God sent me to travel far from my father's home, I told her, `Wherever we go, have the kindness to say that you are my sister.' "

   14Then Abimelech took sheep and oxen and servants--both men and women--and gave them to Abraham, and he returned his wife, Sarah, to him. 15"Look over my kingdom, and choose a place where you would like to live," Abimelech told him. 16Then he turned to Sarah. "Look," he said, "I am giving your `brother' a thousand pieces of silver[a] to compensate for any embarrassment I may have caused you. This will settle any claim against me in this matter."

   17Then Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech, his wife, and the other women of the household, so they could have children. 18For the LORD had stricken all the women with infertility as a warning to Abimelech for having taken Abraham's wife.


Now, when we look at this passage. It states not to seek mediums, interpret oments or engage in sorcery. I can understand about using knowledge for evil doing, but if God comes to you through a dream - how do we distringuish right from wrong.. Its still a dream, vision, trance or communicating with the living spirit of God or those who pass on. It sounds like to me a contradiction that the bible projects in certain passages.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12

10For example, never sacrifice your son or daughter as a burnt offering.[a] And do not let your people practice fortune-telling or sorcery, or allow them to interpret omens, or engage in witchcraft, 11or cast spells, or function as mediums or psychics, or call forth the spirits of the dead. 12Anyone who does these things is an object of horror and disgust to the LORD. It is because the other nations have done these things that the LORD your God will drive them out ahead of you.


Your thoughts are welcome'd.

Tvos

[Stookie]

I'm not sure if this completely relates or not, but I'm going to give it a shot:

Imagine that in bible days everyone had dream-visions. It's so common that no one questions it. Now look at the bible literally (expecially the old testament). Faith and Devotion to God are essential, and it makes more sense when a person is born clairvoyant. To have the highest devotion in your heart so as to not be decieved. Anyone who has been in the astral knows deception is fairly easy. In the bible there is only one true source of everything (God), and that source cuts through all deception and egotism.

Supposedly the 3 Wise Men were astrologers or something similar, even though the bible says astrology is wrong. But they used their gifts to find Jesus. They are called "wise" men, but it dosn't really explain what makes them wise. Perhaps their devotion to God and removal of the Ego?

[Player4joo]

During the old testaments of the bible there was god. 1 God so it was monotheism. Then during the new testaments there was Jesus who was supposedly also god. So then a big debate started. There is only 1 god, how can we put Jesus and God together and make them one....

According to a story i heard on the history channel? maybe discovery channel? well a few roman priests got together and locked themselves in a room and decided that they will provide an answer to the people. When they came out of the room they had the miracle solution. Lets create something called the holy trinity!!! Yeah!! with God the father on top, Jesus on one side, and the holy spirit on the other side. This trinity creates one whole triangle and this triangle represents god, thus there is no multiple god worshiping going on.

Wait up... hold up then.... so the holy spirit is a part of god? Wait!!! don't i have the holy spirit within me!!??? Wait.... Doesn't a verse say, the kingdom of heaven is within all of us?

So we carry god with us wherever we go.... my point i guess is this. People in the bible all had visions, astral projections etc.....the thought of the matter was that god gave these people visions and astral projections where they are "in the spirit". Many Christians will argue that these types of experiences are only available through god and cannot be achieved alone. Well.... we have god within all of us so doesn't that mean we can all have projections and visions? If yes... then why would Christians say that astral projection and the like doesn't exist Kinda makes yeah think if you think logically.

[CFTraveler]

Hi.  I tried to just read but I couldn't resist adding a few things:
About the old testament prohibiting divination and sorcery, this is my answer:
1-The bible specifically allows casting of lots (which is a form of divination).  I won't mention the OBE examples in it- any previous post will do this excellently.
2-In Matthew 22, 36:40
"Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.  
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." So all the other rules depend on this one.

As to Jesus proclaiming his godhood, I really think that is a mistranlation- for at least two reasons:
Forgive me that I couldn't find the exact quotes but I will go out on a limb here:
In at least one occasion someone called Jesus good, and he rebuked (I think it was a her) saying "there is only one that is good, and that is God [not me]".  In another (in Matthew) He was giving a list of do's/don'ts- and one was "Don't call anyone master, not even the Christ, only God is your master."  And finally, everyone has heard the story of the burning bush: When God appeared to Abraham and told him his name "I AM".  So it's shouldn't be too farfetched to think that when Jesus said "I am the way and the light" He probably originally said  "I AM is the way, and the light.."  You get my drift.  
As to why did Jesus have to get crucified and died? Well, I reject the assumption that it was to remove or sins, because IMO this is an assumption that was developed much after Jesus' life and death, by hundreds of years.  If you look at his message of love and forgiveness, then there's got to be another reason.  This is how I see it:
1-The Romans crucified thousands of Jews in the time of Jesus.  This is something that was done commonly, and I think it was Nero that bragged about how many jews he had crucified a day. (It's somewhere in Josephus, in Antiquities of the Jews).  The amount was astonishing, and in my opinion, he probably inflated the amount. I am mentioning this because I am going to propose 2 reasons, one historical.
The first one is this:  Jesus spent a lot of time explaining that the physical world is not so important- That the spiritual world is what matters.  Even after healing the sick, casting out demons, and performing resurrection, people didn't get that he was saying the body wasn't it.  So he went one step further and transfigured himself into light. Now that's something to write home about.  But people still were impressed, but didn't get the message.  So one way to drive the message home is this: He died very publicly, came back in the flesh- now that guarantees two things- That his followers (not just his apostles, mind you) would get that mortal life isn't all there is, that if you understand your relationship to the Father, mortal death is nothing to be afraid of.  I believe at this point most people finally got it, at least until the message was obscured by the "early church fathers." Who dissappeared a lot of scripture and imposed a view of humanity that was almost opposed to that of Jesus.
The second reason for resurrection:  If he didn't die and come back as publicly as he did, we wouldn't be talking about him.  It's that simple.
I know I'm going to catch some flack with this but I just couldn't resist it.
Regards, CF.

[Stookie]

CFTraveler -

I like what you have to say about Jesus' crucifixion & ressurection. There is one thing though that has always confused me about Jesus though. He dosen't really seem to know what is going to happen when he dies. He has faith in the Father and his Will, but at times is scared and unsure. I believe this is seen in the Garden of Gethsemenee (I have no idea how that's spelled) and when he's on the cross he screams "Why have you forsaken me?" He thought that God abandoned him. These 2 things lead me to believe he's more human than most chrisians think.

However, after the Ressurection, there is something VERY different about him. One of his first appearances, he comes to the diciples, and the Bible says he comes in even though the "doors and windows were shut". Not long after that they were fishing and saw someone on the shore, but it said that it wasn't until one of them (the most loved one - I forget which) said it was Jesus before they could recognize him. Why didn't they notice him? Was he really in a physical body? It would explain why he suddenly appears out of nowhere.

But it would, like you said, convince them of life after death, and get them to spread the word. If he just would have said "Though shalt practice Astral Projection", things would have been easier.

[David Warner]

Stookie,

Yes, it would be much nicer if Jesus said "thou shall practice astral projection" hence the religion conflict against occult views. But if you notice what I mentioned earlier about Daniel and God giving him the vision. How much farther does one have to look? Its right there in the verse about dreams and with God being on Daniel's side to save lives.

Tvos

[David Warner]

Ap Friends,

Well good people, I finally released the discussion on my web site Www.InvisibleLight.Us a few days ago.

A excellent in-depth interview discussion with my friend Ralph V. We cover discussions on religion, spirituality, and the out of body experience. I had the opportunity to spend many hours with Ralph in a interview to discuss the positive use of dreams / oobe used as a legitimate Christian tool.

The gist of the discussion centered around the oobe and "how the individual uses their experience". Do you walk the path of darkness or into the white light? Do we oobe and have God on our side, or against.

Email me at Info@InvisibleLight.Us for the ID/PASS
to enter into the site.

Thank You,

Tvos