Evidence for Astral Realm/Body/Experience

[mactombs]

sci·ence
n.

1a. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
1b. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
1c. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
2. Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science.
3. An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
4. Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.

No, science isn't supposed to be a way of thinking. I hope qbeac has lots of success, I even wish I could contribute by experimenting, but my feeling is ... the best science will ever manage is to show that a person in a certain state of relaxation has a certain likelihood of correctly guessing remote information.

I'm more interested in definition 2 above - inducing an OBE down to a science.  

[Ben K]

its all semantical nonsense. science is a way of doing things, a way of thinking. anyone will tell you that.

OBEs are never going to be proved. There is no such thing as "proof". You either believe or you dont. You can get your hopes up that some magical device will come out or some magical study will be performed but its never going to happen. There will always be people who believe OBEs are "fake" just like there will always be people who believe in god.

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge.
-Carl Sagan

[Selski]

OBEs are never going to be proved.

That's a massive statement.  Do you want a bet?  I bet you the equivalent of '5 physical years of sheer boredom' that one day OBEs are proved.

Granted, we may both no longer be of this physical world, but if we remember this bet, we'll find each other easily and pay our dues.

Are you game?  

Sarah

[Ben K]

definitly game

keep in mind the difference between "accepted" and "proved". God has never been "proved".

There IS no such thing as "objective fact". only beliefs. and i will bet you my LIFE that there will never be a time when every human believes OBEs are not somehow "fake". There will ALWAYS be beliefs that contradict the OBE experience, no matter how foolish those beliefs may be. I do believe, however that quite soon the whole notion of "astral" travel and other areas of consciousness will become more accepted.

Hell, we can "prove" obes right now. There are NUMEROUS studies and reports on people doing the playing card trick and similar things. Its not about "proof" its about belief.

edit- this topic reminds me of a post by frank i read a while ago. il try to find it.

edit- here it is:

Hi:

As I've said a number of times, one of the most frustrating things about this whole thing, for me, is I cannot actually prove any of it to any semblance of a scientific standard.

I am hoping that between all interested parties we can at least bring this topic into the 21st century, by clearing away this Dark Age legacy that forever seems to haunt this topic. Plus, we can at least get something down on paper, written in a way that makes logical sense. Given that this is the 21st century and all that.

Also, I am hoping that in a couple of years we will have a number of people here who have steadily worked through all the various stages and pitfalls to the extent where we will be able to come to some kind of common consensus as regards our experiences. Perhaps by then we will be able to report some kind of actual meeting within Primary Focus 3 of consciousness and develop some kind of objective proof of that fact. Perhaps not to the standard required of science in a strict sense, but more in an objectively held group-consensus sense.

Personally, I believe the wider reality will never actually be proved. As I've said before, for example, that unless you are some kind of engineering scientist no-one ever actually "proved" the existence of electricity before you used it. People simply switch on a light or plug the kettle in. It's there simply to use as you see fit. I think that is how knowledge of the Wider Reality will start to become. The more people have these experiences then the more people will start to accept them, and so the more people who will have them, and so on.

To my mind, it all boils down to getting this topic wrapped up in an air of public acceptability. People generally still think it's all very freaky and mystical, or on the other side of the coin they think it's dangerous. But the more we try to explain it in a sane and sensible fashion, then the more people will come to accept it, and the more they will want to give it a try.

Yours,
Frank

[Selski]

definitly game

Cool.  

Frank or no Frank, you've lost.  Because you said "OBEs are never going to be proved".  And that was the bet you agreed to.

Well, it doesn't specify when they are going to be/not going to be proved, therefore if we go on for infinity, you never win your side of the bet, because there's always the possibility that they will be proved at some point.

Only I can win this bet.  When you find me in the mass of realities we would be living in, say a squillion years from now, and say, "Hey Selski, you owe me that bet we had during that strange existence on the planet called earth, because OBEs still haven't been proved."

And I'll say, "Well Ben K, there's still another squillion years to go at least, so sit back and keep an eye on them scientists - they'll get there eventually..."



Sarah

[qbeac]

Hi Ben K and rest of participants,

In order to obtain scientific proof of these experiences we need four "ifs":

1) "If" there are some experienced projectors who are willing to collaborate with scientist in laboratory experiments according to all the control and security measures of the Scientific Method, and...

2) "If" there is a strong enough connection between the astral plane and the physical plane (not too much distortion, maybe a moderate distortion but not a high one), as to allow those experienced projectors to read two words correctly, and ...

3) "If" those positive results can be published in a prestigious scientific journal (Ex: Science, Nature, The Lancet, etc.). This point is VERY important, it will make the big difference, and ...

4) "If" the same experiment could be replicated by several other independent scientists...

... if thoses four "ifs" happen, "then" we will be able to obtain scientific proof for all humanity about the reality of these experiences.

We have started that process in Spain with an experienced projector. We are about to start doing some serious tests, and our intention is to go for it till the end of the road. The more experienced projectors who participate in this process, the sooner we will be able to obtain that proof for all humanity.

Similar things have happened through out the history of human kind. For instance, during many centuries (even thousands of years), humanity thought the Earth was the centre of the Universe, until Galileo came along with a small and rudimentary telescope and saw for the very first time a few small satellites (I think Jupiter's satellites) that did not circle the Earth... he told about it, encountered a lot of opposition based on the scientific paradigm that most people believed at the time, went through all the above process (the four "ifs" of his time), and finally his observations became "the new paradigm." A paradigm shift is not only possible, it is necessary.

Paradigm change, scientific revolution (wikipedia):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions

So, it is going to be difficult, but it is NOT impossible. All we need is a lot of people working together towards one goal: to improve the future of humanity, to work together for a better future for every human being.

We encourage all of you to think about it and to help out, because it is worth the effort.

We have extensively talked about this issue at links:

- Whats Your Proof?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011

- Post #8, pag. 8. Comprehensive and complete explanation of the Agnostic Method:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=180207#180207

- Method to verify if OBE are real or imaginary experiences
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907

- Can you move a physical object from the astral plane?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21202

Un saludo, qbeac.

P.D. By the way, one of our biggest doubts right now is if it is possible to obtain a good enough connection between the astral and the physical planes, without too much distortion, so that the two words can be read correctly... I believe that's what you call the RTZ (Real Time Zone)...

Do you think it is possible to obtain that good connection? Is there any thing you could do or should do to improve that connection? Thanks.

[mactombs]

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge.
-Carl Sagan

A religious quote from a religious man. Science is a method. Once it becomes a way of thinking, of living, it becomes a religion.

It is true, there is no such thing as objective proof, just acceptance by academia for what goes in the textbooks as being reality. Since proof isn't possible in the absolute sense, what we, normal people, term as "proof" means something different. Ben K demands proof to be something that isn't possible, knows it isn't possible, and therefore states that everything is a matter of belief (which is true). It's not proved unless everyone believes it, as far as Ben K is concerned.

As far as the card experiment, all it shows is that a person can guess what a set of cards will be against some probability. It does not prove how the person does this, and science probably never will. Science is incapable of proving the wider reality, it is grounded to this one. The best it can do is say, this person can do what he claims (as long as what he claims to do has some relation to this reality), but there is no evidence whatsoever for how he does it.

Simply, OBEs never will be proved, only accepted (or not) by what evidence can be shown.

[Ben K]

definitly game

Cool.  

Frank or no Frank, you've lost.  Because you said "OBEs are never going to be proved".  And that was the bet you agreed to.

Well, it doesn't specify when they are going to be/not going to be proved, therefore if we go on for infinity, you never win your side of the bet, because there's always the possibility that they will be proved at some point.

Only I can win this bet.  When you find me in the mass of realities we would be living in, say a squillion years from now, and say, "Hey Selski, you owe me that bet we had during that strange existence on the planet called earth, because OBEs still haven't been proved."

And I'll say, "Well Ben K, there's still another squillion years to go at least, so sit back and keep an eye on them scientists - they'll get there eventually..."



Sarah

Im fine with never winning as long as I never lose  

[Ben K]

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge.
-Carl Sagan

A religious quote from a religious man. Science is a method. Once it becomes a way of thinking, of living, it becomes a religion.

Correct me if im wrong but isnt a method just a set of ideas, which in turn are THOUGHTS or WAYS of thinking?

It is true, there is no such thing as objective proof, just acceptance by academia for what goes in the textbooks as being reality. Since proof isn't possible in the absolute sense, what we, normal people, term as "proof" means something different. Ben K demands proof to be something that isn't possible, knows it isn't possible, and therefore states that everything is a matter of belief (which is true). It's not proved unless everyone believes it, as far as Ben K is concerned.

Not that hard of an idea to accept, is it?

As far as the card experiment, all it shows is that a person can guess what a set of cards will be against some probability. It does not prove how the person does this, and science probably never will. Science is incapable of proving the wider reality, it is grounded to this one. The best it can do is say, this person can do what he claims (as long as what he claims to do has some relation to this reality), but there is no evidence whatsoever for how he does it.

Again, proof means different things to different people. To me the odds of someone guessing a card are so high that with so many successful attempts, i would believe OBEs are "real" based on this data alone. But others will just bring up contradictory beliefs and justify themselves.

Simply, OBEs never will be proved, only accepted (or not) by what evidence can be shown.

Egg-zactly. The trick is to get so much "evidence" that they cannot think up beliefs contradictory to your "evidence". They will then concede and either change their beliefs or bovine excrement their way out of the conversation and go back to their old beliefs.

[Ben K]

Hi Ben K and rest of participants,

In order to obtain scientific proof of these experiences we need four "ifs":

1) "If" there are some experienced projectors who are willing to collaborate with scientist in laboratory experiments according to all the control and security measures of the Scientific Method, and...

2) "If" there is a strong enough connection between the astral plane and the physical plane (not too much distortion, maybe a moderate distortion but not a high one), as to allow those experienced projectors to read two words correctly, and ...

There IS no "connection". The "connection" is a constant thing. The only thing stopping these "experienced projectors" from reading the right words is belief.

3) "If" those positive results can be published in a prestigious scientific journal (Ex: Science, Nature, The Lancet, etc.). This point is VERY important, it will make the big difference, and ...

You will be laughed out of the universe if you give a legitimate scientific journal a study on such an esoteric topic. science simply isnt ready yet.

4) "If" the same experiment could be replicated by several other independent scientists...

Geez thats the toughest one of the group! Its like trying to take LSD and experience the same thing twice!

[qbeac]

Hi Ben K, one of the reasons why we "believe" there must be some type of connection between the physical plane and the astral plane is because of what they call the "verifiable NDEs" or "veridical NDEs". Also, some prestigious scientists have started to investigate this topic using modern means (EEG study, etc.) and have already published several very interesting articles in prestigious scientific journals... so, that's the first step in the road and we think there are going to be many more.

Let me give you just one example:

Near Death Experience In Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands,
Dr. Pim van Lommel (cardiologist), et al, THE LANCET • Vol 358 • December 15, 2001 ,  2039-45.
http://www.thelancet.com/search/search.isa
http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm

This is an example of a "verifiable NDE" from that article:

During the pilot phase in one of the hospitals, a coronary-care-unit nurse reported a veridical out-of-body experience of a resuscitated patient:

"During a night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-year-old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care unit. He had been found about an hour before in a meadow by passers-by. After admission, he receives artificial respiration without intubation, while heart massage and defibrillation are also applied. When we want to intubate the patient, he turns out to have dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures and put them onto the 'crash car'. Meanwhile, we continue extensive CPR. After about an hour and a half the patient has sufficient heart rhythm and blood pressure, but he is still ventilated and intubated, and he is still comatose. He is transferred to the intensive care unit to continue the necessary artificial respiration.

Only after more than a week do I meet again with the patient, who is by now back on the cardiac ward. I distribute his medication. The moment he sees me he says: 'Oh, that nurse knows where my dentures are'. I am very surprised. Then he elucidates: 'Yes, you were there when I was brought into hospital and you took my dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding drawer underneath and there you put my teeth.' I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR.

When I asked further, it appeared the man had seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR. He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as the appearance of those present like myself. At the time that he observed the situation he had been very much afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die. And it is true that we had been very negative about the patient's prognosis due to his very poor medical condition when admitted.

The patient tells me that he desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to us that he was still alive and that we should continue CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says he is no longer afraid of death. 4 weeks later he left hospital as a healthy man."
----------------------

For more examples of "verifiable NDEs", or "Veridical NDEs**" see this link:
**experiencer acquires verifiable information that they could not have obtained by any normal means

- The Division of Perceptual Studies (DOPS) is a unit of the Department of Psychiatric Medicine of the University of Virginia's Health System.
http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies/case_types.cfm#OOB

Un saludo. qbeac.

[qbeac]

Hi Ben K, you can also check this interview with Dr. Bruce Greyson about a similar experiment they are now doing in the operating rooms of the Hospital of the University of Virginia:

http://readthehook.com/stories/2004/09/08/facetimeDrNeardeathGreyson.html

FACETIME- Dr. near-death: Greyson's heart-stopping study

Published SEPTEMBER 9, 2004, in issue 0336 of the Hook

BY LAURA PARSONS ART@READTHEHOOK.COM

A woman hovers above her own lifeless body, detached and at peace, before moving through a dark tunnel toward a dazzling light.

Whether a believer or a skeptic, chances are you recognize the standard markers of a near-death experience. But in 1975, when Bruce Greyson was a newly minted psychiatrist, this was new terrain.

At the time, Greyson was working in UVA's emergency room with a psychiatric resident named Raymond Moody, who had just published the soon-to-be-runaway bestseller, Life after Life, in which Moody coined the now familiar term "near-death experience" (NDE).

Greyson, who was already exploring brain-mind anomalies, became fascinated by the countless letters Moody received from people relating to the surprisingly consistent reports of what clinical death survivors recalled about their flat-line time.

"They were astounded and often relieved to find out they were not alone," he remembers.

Almost three decades later, Greyson, 57, is still fascinated. This director of UVA's Division of Personality Studies began a new project earlier this year designed to verify reports of out-of-body NDEs. Greyson, in collaboration with UVA cardiologists, is conducting an investigation that focuses on patients receiving automatic heart defibrillators who must endure a brief cardiac arrest to ensure that the units are functioning.

Wearing a conservative yellow tie as he leans back in his chair, Greyson says there's nothing to report yet, but he smiles and mentions he's considering extending the two-year study.

"Bruce is a very careful, cautious researcher," says Dr. Michael Sabom, an Atlanta-based cardiologist who also studies near-death experiences.

Greyson points out some of the anesthetics used on the cardiac patients interfere with memory, so he rigged a computer to generate images visible only from the ceiling.

"If people can remember what's going on," Greyson says, "then that's very hard to explain."

Scientifically proving NDEs' occurrence, however, is not what most interests Greyson as a psychiatrist. He's excited by how near-death experiences change people's lives. According to Greyson, near-death survivors share no distinctive traits prior to their NDEs, but afterward they generally become more spiritual, more altruistic, and less materialistic.

Having pioneered a path-breaking study of suicide survivors who reported having NDEs, Greyson discovered that, unlike other failed suicides, his subjects were less likely to repeat their attempts. According to Greyson, "What they tell you is once you're not afraid of death, you're not afraid of life."

Unaware of any chemical capable of creating such a life-altering effect, Greyson suggests NDEs have important implications for psychiatry, noting, "We work very hard for a long time to make very small changes."

Has his research has affected his own outlook? "It's given me a different perspective on what's important in life," Greyson says. "It's also made me a lot less willing to dismiss crazy ideas out of hand."  

[Kazbadan]

i am happy to know that these discussions still exist, they give some life to these almost dead forums

Lately i have so much much work that i dont have any time or spirit to come to AP forums.

Coming back on topic, it sems that the only way to proof obes its to prove it to yourself. Nobody cares. Lets take my example: last days work is so hard that my mind really dont care if obes are real or not. Why ordinary people ( i mean, people that dont like paranormal stuff) would even bother about such things?

If i read something interesting about another topic that is not innteresting to me, i will just think on that for some minutes, but then, puff. For example, if i read that there a japonese guy that moves faster twice than Bruce Lee and that no body beat him i will say "Wow!!! amazing!" but some seconds later its gone, i forget that.

It sthat that makes me worried about OBEs: none of of my friends, family, colleagues would ever accept to learn OBE and then do the experiments for themselves. Even worst, i tell these things to my friends and they think that i am crazy. The few ones that get interested will answer me that such things (obe) are dangerous and they are not prepared for that.

What can i do to change such mentality?

[Ben K]

Hi Ben K, one of the reasons why we "believe" there must be some type of connection between the physical plane and the astral plane is because of what they call the "verifiable NDEs" or "veridical NDEs".

We inhabit ALL areas of consciousness ALL the time. The only differences are differences in perception. You can call it a "connection" if you want but thats really not whats going on. I can give you a very simple way of observing the "astral" realm. simply imagine something! when you do this you are accessing F2oC. This is where most people switch their perception when they have "astral projection" experiences.

The closest "connection" i think would be the brains middle region, with the pituatary gland and thalamus/hypothalamus region, which converts your subjective energy into objective reality, ie your senses.

Ive read alot of these NDE reports and i have to say they are really interesting. I really dont see how an intelligent person can look at those and still believe that death is "it" or "game over". But like i said, its not about facts, its about BELIEF. Im sure in the coming years science will discover more and more and the religous beliefs will start to finally get out of here.

I guess im just suggesting to you that you work not only on objective "facts" but changing peoples BELIEFS as well. Because that will do much more than just ANOTHER paper about someone who was verifiably dead and saw his surgeory happen or ANOTHER paper about someone having an "OBE". But just a suggestion. I mean i can give you 2,000 more examples of verifiable NDEs and people doing the card trick, etc. but people are simply not going to believe it.

[qbeac]

Hi Ben K, I understand what you are saying, but in my opinion, one of the key elements that are still missing is serious research studies about this topic published in prestigious scientific journals such as Nature, Science, The Lancet, etc., etc., etc.

It is true that right now there are plenty of anecdotal evidences about these types of experiences, but at the same time, there are not very many serious studies published in those types of prestigious journals. And no matter how many anecdotal evidences there are, they will never be enough in comparison to a few very rigorous articles published in those scientific journals.

The article in The Lancet from Dr. Pim van Lommel (year 2001) has been one of the pioneers of its kind, but there need to be more similar ones, which all together will be more conclusive. That's what happens in science with new findings, that a single study is usually not enough... the scientific community needs time and very solid proof to rethink the current paradigm (the current body of knowledge they think is the right one at their time) and consider the possibility of a paradigm shift (a new paradigm based on the new findings and discoveries).

And in my opinion, those serious scientific articles have not been published yet in those scientific journals for different reasons, but at least one of them could be because of a lack of the necessary strong and frequent collaboration between the scientific community in general and experienced projectors. I think there has been "some" collaboration, but maybe not enough.

Therefore, one key element in these types of situations is what they call "appeal to authority." Scientific prestigious journals do have enough "authority" among the scientific community, but anecdotal evidences do not.

We have talked extensively about this matter in the following link:

Pag. 8, starting from the top of the page or in Post #4:
(Thread: Whats your proof?)
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=70

Un saludo, qbeac.

[NeoInAstralWorld]

Hi All,

What I am noticing by reading through this and other forums on AP/OBE's is that most of the people who OBE are satisfied with their 'journeys' without deepening in them. It's like having a dream and believing that what happened in it was 100% REAL, when it was just a elaboration of the mind.

Some say here that one's reality has not to be my reality. I can accept that POV, but everyone should understand that mine and your reality (seen like this) is not the REALITY.

I think it was William Buhlman who said in one of his books that he saw deceased people in certain planes doing things like the ones they used to do when they were alive, most of them not realizing that the were not alive anymore... You can say: 'Yes, this is their reality'... Of course! But they are living an illusion, a fantasy, and what they should do is to wake up from that fantasy to move on, to evolve... (lets take as example twp Hollywood movies: The Others and The Sixth Sense) And that's why I think it's very important to investigate about the reality/validity of the OBE/AP, not only for scientific results, but for the own growth as a human being.

I think one can waste their time 'projecting', flying around, talking to different beings believing that every experience is REAL when they are only letting their mind go playing tricks...

J.J. Benitez, a Spanish writer, did once an experiment with a drug in the Amazonian jungle. Being there, he phoned her wife (I think they used to live in the Basque Country by then) and told her to put something underneath their bed. He also phoned a friend of his who lived in Madrid and told him to do the same but on his living room's table this time. After taking the drug he found himself out of his body and then he flew to his apartment and found out that his wife put a framed photo of them under the bed. He flew to Madrid and saw something unusual on the table on his friend's living room (I don't remember what exactly) and the very next day he phoned to his wife and friend and found out that what he saw during his OBIE was exactly what his wife and friend put under the bed and on the table...

From here, once one knows that what happens in the astral is real, one can move on checking always the validity of the experience...

Of course the more subtle the plane, the harder to check its validity taking the physical as a reference but I guess that, one has checked many times with the physical, moving on becomes easier.

Sorry for the length of the post, but I just wanted to make myself clear about my POV of this topic.

[Selski]

Hi Neo and everyone else

I thought I'd stick my oar in again – just for another point of view.

I suppose I could be termed as an experienced projector, as I have had over 100 "RTZ" OBEs, however I don't see myself as experienced at all.  The reason I say this, is that I don't have enough of an idea as to exactly how I manage to have them.  I have theories and ideas, but that's about as far as it goes.  So I could never be a "guinea pig" because I can't will them to happen.

You say things in your post that beg for explanation.  For instance, 'deepening' ones journey.  What do you mean?  How would you deepen yours - please expand?  And you say that dreams are "just an elaboration of the mind".  That's your belief.  Have you never explored your dreams?  Have you never had a dream where it has revealed a "truth" about your physical life?  If you believe dreams are "just an elaboration of the mind" then you probably haven't.

And then you talk about reality, as if you know what reality is.  What is THE reality then?  I'm not being pompous or anything, just curious.  And what is illusion?  Is our physical world THE reality and everything else illusion?  Really?  You even use two Hollywood movies as examples.  Hollywood movies?  Come on.

I don't claim to know what it's all about.  But I do believe there is more to physical reality, or reality in general, than what is at first perceived.  And since I had my first OBE 3 years ago, I'm open to the possibility of other worlds.  

And just what do you mean by "own growth as a human being".  Seriously, I'm sincerely interested as to what you interpret as "growth".  

Because personally, having a lot of RTZ OBEs I wouldn't term as growth.  Of course, when I first had them, it expanded my mind to thinking "outside of the box" so to speak (which I believe is a good thing), but it didn't prove anything.  I even did the playing card experiment which did validate that these weren't dreams (to me).  And before you say it, I didn't guess the card, I saw it.  

In the last 6 months, I have moved away from RTZ OBEs.  I still find them fascinating when they happen, but I am more interested in lucid dreaming and meditation, or what you might term visiting the more subtle planes.  This is where I find I can grow as a human being.  But it's very personal and singular.  I find that I am "evolving spiritually" through my dreams, be they lucid or not, and more so via meditation, far more than via the RTZ OBEs (which seem to occur much closer to our physical reality).

My own viewpoint is that for humanity to grow spiritually, as a group, and individually, is for us to experience these personal happenings for ourselves and learn from them.  Each and every person has to become "open" and "accepting" of the possibilities out there.  So as we (on an individual level) evolve into more of a "knowing" and "understanding" human, so the human race collectively evolves into a more "knowing" and "understanding" group.  

Blimey, where did that last paragraph come from?  That's not like me.  Must have come from deep inside of me.  

I would love to see OBEs taken seriously by scientists and I think it's great what gbeac and TVOS are doing (amongst others).  I would also like OBEs to be proved by scientists, then I can win the bet I had with Ben K.  

However, for me, I am more micro-orientated than macro-orientated and I just love to learn things for my own development.  So, that's my viewpoint and may help you to understand why some seemingly "experienced" projectors are not jumping up and down for proof, and instead are sitting quietly in the background getting on with their own growth.

Finally, you can learn a hell of a lot by your mind "playing tricks" as you say.

I hope this was of interest.

Sarah

[Enterprise87]

Read Robert Bruce's experiences and you probably wont be skeptic anymore.

[NeoInAstralWorld]

Hi Sarah-Selski and Brettb,

Thanks for replying.

I seems that I didn't make myself clear  :confused:

I never said that I doubted the possibility of having OBE's, I believe lots of people have them (I never had one though)!

That's why I described J.J. Benitez as an example of investigating an OBE.

I also believe in Spirits, I have read lots of book about this topic and that's why I mentioned Hollywood movies as an example of what I meant because, yes, they are movies, but they describe very well what happens to lots of spirits who after dying, they don't want to face it and 'create' their 'reality' living in a fantasy...

I repeat, I do not doubt of OBE's, I believe in them, I believe in the existence of other planes, other intelligent beings apart from human beings, etc...

What I doubt is the experience of many people here in this and other forums on OBE/APs.

An example: Someone said here something like that Spirit Guides don't exist, that people are deluded because the only spirit guide who helps people in their OBE's is Jesus Christ...  That's his reality according to the philosophy of many people here on this board... To me he is the deluded one and needs to deepen his OBE's.

I hope you guys understand now my POV.

Neo

[qbeac]

... However, for me, I am more micro-orientated than macro-orientated and I just love to learn things for my own development....
Sarah

Hi Selski (Sarah) and everyone else,

Well, Selski, I thought it was a very good description what you said about being more micro-orientated than macro-orientated. In my case, I guess I must be more macro-orientated than micro-orientated, and perhaps that's why I am so much interested in obtaining scientific proof.... although participating in this forum, and even more, administrating it, is also a macro-oriented activity  

But please, let me clarify a few things about my point of view:

To begin with, I must say that I already believe these experiences are real, among other reasons because I have had several ones myself, and I don't need further proof "for myself" (I have my "Level 1 validation" and that's good enough for me). Also, when I say "real" experiences as opposed to "imaginary" experiences, I mean it from the stand point of the scientific community, which only accepts as "real" the physical world (Ex: there could be many other "real" planes other than the physical plane). So, when I say "real" I mean "real from the reference point of the physical plane."

But if these experiences were to be "real from the reference point of the physical plane", that would have a tremendous importance for the scientific community, because it would imply that a human being can do things that they thought were IMPOSIBLE according to current scientific knowledge. Therefore, they would have to change, modify or update current scientific books. And that's a VERY big deal for modern science (for medicine, psychology, psychiatry, physics, etc.)!

Further more, in the case we could obtain scientific proof that AP are "real" experiences, and considering that nowadays just about everybody can have easy accesses to this "new" knowledge via the modern means of communication (specially via Internet, forums, etc.), it seems to me that we may be on the verge of an evolutionary change in society, or an evolutionary leap forward, and I mean a positive change. In other words, we may be on the verge of a huge paradigm shift, probably bigger and better than the previous ones (Ex: Galileo, Newton, Einstein...).
 
But in order for that change to happen, or to not be blocked, or to proceed, or to happen with a greater speed, or to consolidate itself, in my opinion, it is necessary to obtain empirical proof, or scientific proof, or conclusive proof that these experiences are "real" and not imaginary (please, remember, "real" according to the physical plane).
 
The scientific community has the key to facilitate or to promote that change, or the contrary, to block it or delay it. Because if the scientific community officially validates these experiences, that will open the door for the public recognition and acceptance of these experiences by the rest of humanity, and vice versa.
 
This situation is kind of similar to what happened in Galileo's time: first a great deal of opposition and rejection, but later on, and as the evidence kept piling up, it was simply impossible to deny it.

Therefore, if the final goal we all seem to agree upon is for just about every body in the world to have access to this new knowledge and to try to AP for themselves, so that they can spiritually grow and together build a better world, a happier world, with more justice, more tolerance, more solidarity, more love, etc.... if that's what we all want, it seems to me that the scientific community, for better or worse, has an important role to play in this process right now, because if the scientific community validates theses experiences as "real", the process will accelerate and more people will be able to practice AP sooner. But if the scientific community keeps on believing these experiences are "imaginary", the process will slow down or even be blocked during who knows how many more years or decades.

So, that's why I am personally so much interested in the scientific proof, more for macro-reasons rather than for micro-reasons. Scientific proof could facilitate or even speed up the whole process. But, that's only my personal opinion, and I might be wrong, I am not sure.

I would like to add one more thing:

Regarding the experiments we are doing, we are willing to adjust every single experiment to the circumstances and particularities of any projector, since we are very much aware that this is an experiment with "human beings", and each person may need a different environment to feel comfortable. Also, we believe natural phenomenon does not need to adapt to Science, on the contrary, it is Science the one that should try to adapt to natural phenomenon.

Un saludo, qbeac.

[astralway]

[quote="qbeac
To begin with, I must say that I already believe these experiences are real, among other reasons because I have had several ones myself, and I don't need further proof "for myself" (I have my "Level 1 validation" and that's good enough for me). Also, when I say "real" experiences as opposed to "imaginary" experiences, I mean it from the stand point of the scientific community, which only accepts as "real" the physical world (Ex: there could be many other "real" planes other than the physical plane). So, when I say "real" I mean "real from the reference point of the physical plane."
[/quote]

Hello qbeac,

Do you mean that you have passed the agnostic test?
What evidence experimented for yourself takes you to believe that they were "real" (physical) experiences?

Please, I am very interested in your opinion.

[qbeac]

Hi astralway, well, I think I need to explain that a little better. No, I have not tried the Agnostic Method because I have no control over the experiences I have. I have had several ones but spontaneously and without being able to control what happened in them, other than thinking, being alert and making "mental" decisions once I was already having them. For instance, I wanted really bad to remain having that experience but I was "pushed back" or something... I could not control it.

The reason why they are a good enough proof for me is because of what I have "experienced" and "felt" in at least one of those experiences: I had VERY powerful feelings that were totally clear (the intensity of those feelings was overwhelming), I had a clear conscious through out the whole experience, I could think, I could reflect upon what was going on, I had doubts, I was curious about what was going on, a had sense of wonder... I don't know how to explain it. For instance, imagine you start running against the wall and you hit yourself in the head very hard, and you can perceive the hardness of the wall, and feel the pain in your head, and realize you were kind of foolish for attempting such a thing, etc., etc... you don't need further proof that you in fact hit the wall and that your experience was totally and unfortunately "real".

So, we have classified the proof a person needs to be convinced of something in three different levels: Level 1 (personal level), Level 2 (for small groups of people), and Level 3 (proof for all humanity). We have talked more in depth about all this at links:

Method to verify if OBE are real or imaginary experiences (See Post #1 to Post #4)
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907

- Whats Your Proof?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21011

Chao. qbeac.

[Sunn]

How can you have yer pudding when you dont eat yer meat!!!??

lol..nice floyd reference