Mankind and space travel

[The AlphaOmega]

I have recently heard that NASA has cut funding to Jupiter's moon Europa, which originally planned to send a probe to the moon and drill into the ice in an attempt to see if there was in fact an ocean beneath the surface, and instead again send man to the moon.  I personally find this very disappointing.  Aside from Earth, Europa is the most likely environment to find life in our solar system.  But instead of taking this next exciting step, humanity is sending man again to a desolate, rocky, lifeless rock.  I'm hoping to start a discussion on this topic of space travel within our race.  Though much, MUCH more knowledge can be gained by going to Europa, it seems that man is driven to send itself back into space travel.  How many of you think this is a necessary evolutionary step?  How many think space travel is an impossible feat?  And how many think that it's utterly unnecessary to send man into our unnatural environment when machines can do the job well?

[cainam_nazier]

I kinda of see it two ways.

1.  The machines.  We do need to send machines into space, or at least into the areas where it would be either too difficult or to dangerous to send a person.  We need the information.  We need it to see if it would be worth sending a person.  However machines can be limited on the kind of information they collect.  But they are still needed.  I think the more probes as such that we send out to various locations the more likely we will find some thing worth finding.

2.  I do however think that it is just as important to send people into space as well, even if it is only to the moon.  More information is gathered by sending humans than just the information they collect on the mission.  It also gives us the ability to study the people themselves.  How they react to and deal with the stresses of space travel.

Personally I feel that more research needs to be done on modes of travel in space.  Until we can overcome the distance barriers we won't learn too much more.  We also have to look at more ways to over come the physical and psycological effects of being in space.  Things that really can only be researched by sending people there.  But first and foremost is the need to cheapen the means by which we even get off the ground, which by far is the most costly and resource draining part of the deal.  The easier we can make getting there the more progress that can be made from being there, if you know what I mean.

I also think that it is a needed step in our evolution.  We as a whole get better and stronger by doing things that some say we were not meant or designed to do.  It is our nature to overcome these things and to better ourselves through it.  I also think the same about exploring the ocean.  Some thing else I think that we need to do more of.  There are a great many places there also that we have not been and need to develop the technology to get us there.

[Rob]

There is the argument that sending anything to europe to drill through the ice may be unwise as it could dirty those alien waters with earthling microbes.
So maybe its a good thing, for now. Same thing going on in aahh around the arctic I think, there is a big underwater lake which has not seen normal atmosphere for hundreds of thousands of years, and people are still scratching their heads as to how to get into it without taking modern organisms with them. Tricky problem.
Although I doubt very much that this was on Georgy-boys mind when he decided we need to get (back?) to the moon....he just wants another big thing to distract the american people to try and recover his disastrous image and poll ratings. Trying to show he has vision and intelligence <chuckle-chuckle..>

[Arn de Gothia]

NASA is a joke, the americans have had anti gravity technology for years and they can easily go to Mars. They probably have a base there. They don't want to share this with the world because they are greedy powermongers.

[Squirrelly]

I wouldn't say NASA was greedy for power and fame. They helped contribute a lot to our current information about the universe.

[CFTraveler]

NASA is a joke, the americans have had anti gravity technology for years and they can easily go to Mars. They probably have a base there. They don't want to share this with the world because they are greedy powermongers.

And you know this how?

[nicedreams]

how can you not know it

[The AlphaOmega]

Without being in NASA we can still know enough about physics and the vastness of the universe to know that to get to Mars is not an easy thing, and there's a 99% chance that we are not there now (I guess anything is possible).  And what good would an anti gravity space craft be anyways?  It wouldn't effect anything in space, that's already anti gravity.  With the knowledge we currently have, and our fuel sources, the theory that mankind is already embarked in space travel, especially as far as Mars, which astronomically speaking is nothing, but still incredibly difficult, is probably not a very likely scenario.  I think it will be done some day, though why we would want to go to Mars for any other reason than to say that we can is beyond me.  I'd rather see NASA spend their billions looking for life on other planets, not putting life on them.

[nicedreams]

Without being in NASA we can still know enough about physics and the vastness of the universe to know that to get to Mars is not an easy thing, and there's a 99% chance that we are not there now (I guess anything is possible).  And what good would an anti gravity space craft be anyways?  It wouldn't effect anything in space, that's already anti gravity.   life on them.

anti gravity engine i think its called would change the gravity of the object at the ends of the space craft one has a lot and the other does not  gravity and mass go together kinda and it attracts stuff like the sun to  the planets and that's how it would move

[Arn de Gothia]

NASA is a joke, the americans have had anti gravity technology for years and they can easily go to Mars. They probably have a base there. They don't want to share this with the world because they are greedy powermongers.

And you know this how?

I just know

[El-Bortukali]

astral projection would be an awesome tool to validate these ideas =)

[cainam_nazier]

Well all the NASA Black Ops stuff aside.   If I am thinking about this correctly the "theory" behind anti gravity drives only allows them to work in gravity environments.  I.E. they require something to push away from.  With out gravity there is nothing to power the drive.

And besides if NASA had technology that would allow for considerably greater exploration of space we would know.  That kind of stuff would be used to bolster the US space program to a point of it becoming a driving point for the economy and a position of extreme national pride and political power.  Much in the same way the original "space race" did.

[nicedreams]

no gravity in space does not mean the things are not being pulled by the gravity of planets and stars

[cainam_nazier]

I understand that however.  The gravitational forces of a celestral body only extend so far from it's center and exist in varying degrees.  With out staying within close proximity to some thing creating a sufficient amount of gravity to be used in opposition would make getting around difficult.  You need some thing to push off of.  Not to mention that the whole idea creates a energy intensive machine that simply could not be powered in space at this time.  We lack the ability to generate large amounts of electricity while in space.  Most space vehicles created use solar energy and currently the collection and storage of solar energy is not up to par to a point of it being useful enough to power anything large enough to hold a gravity generating device.  Which is why all of our current space ships and the station do not have artificial gravity.  Yes we know how to do it but it can not be done in space at this time.

[Rob]

You need some thing to push off of. Not to mention that the whole idea creates a energy intensive machine that simply could not be powered in space at this time. We lack the ability to generate large amounts of electricity while in space. Most space vehicles created use solar energy and currently the collection and storage of solar energy is not up to par to a point of it being useful enough to power anything large enough to hold a gravity generating device. Which is why all of our current space ships and the station do not have artificial gravity. Yes we know how to do it but it can not be done in space at this time.

Interesting. But we really dont know if anti-gravity would be a newtonian type reactive force or not. Personally I see little reason why it would be, but evidence from UFO stuff does seem to indicate this might be the case. In which case the actually mechanism of inter-planetary travel becomes radically different. For our puposes, we would probably use a type of setup similar to rocket boosters which drop away, only the initial thrust stage would be much more powerful and quicker. It might even be possible to create an AG beam from the ground. But the core of the matter is the craft would need a very short and intensive take-off, much like UFO's are seen to shoot off at incredible speeds.
Also, what antigravity are you referring to that requires enormous amounts of power? The only valid AG I know of is podkletnovs spinning superconducting disks, which are simply that. Very difficult material to make, but once made, they do not require an enourmous amount of power to operate (which presents some interesting questions about conservation of energy etc). Thrusts as a beam, but also seems to have the capacity to levitate the disk itself. Cool stuff.

[cainam_nazier]

The ones I have seen are on small scale mostly using an electrical current.  Most are constructed with tin foil in a triangular shape.  I do not know if it is true anti gravity but basically a magnetic field is created that pushes away from the ground.  The only problem is that they A) use 10 to 15 amps at 115 V to get a about one pound of material off the ground, and B) they are highly unstable.  Of the different ones I have seen no one has been able to build one with it's own separate power source because they can't get enough lift to pick up more than a pound or two.  Most are tethered to the ground by the same cord that supplies the power.

I could be wrong but most are listed as an "anti gravity" devise.

I see if I can pull up some of the links to different web sights and video when I get home.

[Rob]

Ah, you are talking about lifter craft I think. Hehe I did my final year reseach project on them   .
Well, there are some definately peculiarities they display. Most interesting are the fully insulated layered type designs in Brown original patents (name thomas townsend brown, if you like I can send you the patents), since this would seem to rule out ion movement. Another oddity is the increased thrust efficiency at certain frequencies, and another I identified is that thrust should be much higher when the wire is connected to the foil, but instead thrust drops to like 1/6th its normal setup value. Yeah they are often listed as AG a lot of the time but frankly thats jumping to conclusions a bit! IMO they are interesting and havent been researched enough, but a lot of their operation could still be down to ion movements. However there are some big problems with this model, which is the main hurdle in research. All the models we have are all very incomplete.
I dont think they can lift one or two pounds though! Like, max I have seen is a coupla hundred grams (and a small mouse   ). Power source  needs to be above 15kV, and ampage is in the mA region and below usually. Power to thrust efficiency is approaching, at best, half that of a helicopter I believe. Main reason they cant take off with supply is, as you have said, not enough thrust to carry a very high volt PS.
Interesting topic though, to be sure. Jean-Louis Naudin site has some of the best info out there IMO - http://jnaudin.free.fr (and lots of other cool stuff as well!!!!)

[The AlphaOmega]

So I guess once again we're faced with machine vs man.  If we do have such anti gravity devices, capable of galactic exploration, should we be content in using those for our understanding of the physical universe.  Or is it necessary, for some reason, to attempt to make such travel available to humans.  This is our planet.  This is where we've evolved.  What reasons, if any, do we have to explore space or step foot on other planets?  Our desire for the knowledge of truth has pushed us to explore space using many different tools.  But should humanity be concerned with putting ourselves in that environment as well?  Naturally we can spend a lot of money used for space exploration to help ourselves and our only one true planet.  But we continue to spend it gaining knowledge of our solar system.  Should we be content with our current method of space exploration?  Simply put, is it really necessary for man to travel space?

[cainam_nazier]

www.americanantigravity.com is a good site.  I couldn't remember what they were actually called.  It's been a while since I first saw them.  But even then it I had the impression that they were cool and all but really wouldn't go any where.  I will admit that most of my understanding of physics and other advanced sciences is self taught so I can be a little sketchy on details some times since I lack the actual schooling to go with it.

Alpha,

Yes I personally feel that it is important for us to get out there.  I truly believe that if we were to get out there and learn once and for all if there is anybody else in the universe it would have a more unifying effect on humans as a whole.  I believe that there are others out there.  If that is the case it would be one of the best platforms for global unification of goals for the human race.  I kinda hate to say it but much the same effect as in Star Trek.  I would like to believe that when faced with hard evidence people would take a harder look at what we are doing to ourselves on the global level.  

But of course if the opposite is true and we travel all over hell and creation to find that's it, it's just us.  That too could have a very unifying effect.  To learn that we are that special again could force a lot of people to step back and look at what we do.  Because at that point it would be simply that no one is going to help us figure things out.  There would be no out side voice to say, "You know what, maybe that's not such a good idea."

I dunno, I guess my whole point is that we and species need some thing to force the realization that a unified planet doesn't mean the end of personal beliefs.  That we can work together to end poverty, disease and still take pride in our individual differences in stead of condemning others for being different.

[CFTraveler]

www.americanantigravity.com is a good site.  I couldn't remember what they were actually called.  It's been a while since I first saw them.  But even then it I had the impression that they were cool and all but really wouldn't go any where.  I will admit that most of my understanding of physics and other advanced sciences is self taught so I can be a little sketchy on details some times since I lack the actual schooling to go with it.
Alpha,
Yes I personally feel that it is important for us to get out there.  I truly believe that if we were to get out there and learn once and for all if there is anybody else in the universe it would have a more unifying effect on humans as a whole.  I believe that there are others out there.  If that is the case it would be one of the best platforms for global unification of goals for the human race.  I kinda hate to say it but much the same effect as in Star Trek.  I would like to believe that when faced with hard evidence people would take a harder look at what we are doing to ourselves on the global level.  

But of course if the opposite is true and we travel all over hell and creation to find that's it, it's just us.  That too could have a very unifying effect.  To learn that we are that special again could force a lot of people to step back and look at what we do.  Because at that point it would be simply that no one is going to help us figure things out.  There would be no out side voice to say, "You know what, maybe that's not such a good idea."

I dunno, I guess my whole point is that we and species need some thing to force the realization that a unified planet doesn't mean the end of personal beliefs.  That we can work together to end poverty, disease and still take pride in our individual differences in stead of condemning others for being different.

I agree completely.  I want to also add that there are things that have helped humankind as a side-effect of space exploration.  
Plus we have the drive to go out and explore- It's gotta be for a reason!

[The AlphaOmega]

Very good points, I would have to agree.  At the risk of sounding like a lunatic, there have been a couple of occasions in my life when I have witnessed something in the sky that I simply can't possibly explain.  I would like to know what those were all about.  I think a good way to do that would be to go and and look.

[cainam_nazier]

CFTraveler

I agree completely. I want to also add that there are things that have helped humankind as a side-effect of space exploration.
Plus we have the drive to go out and explore- It's gotta be for a reason!

Like Tang.  

The AlphaOmega Posted: 18 Apr 2006 14:47    Post subject:  

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Very good points, I would have to agree. At the risk of sounding like a lunatic, there have been a couple of occasions in my life when I have witnessed something in the sky that I simply can't possibly explain. I would like to know what those were all about. I think a good way to do that would be to go and and look.  

Okay, you're on a site that deals with largely un-provable concepts, where people claim to do things that some one else can't even witness if they are in the same room, and not to mention the people who channel beings from all over including "aliens", and then the real crazy people who want to raise armies and conquer the world and all that.  And you're worried about sounding like a lunatic because you saw some lights and didn't know what they were.  Not sharing something here in an open disscusion because you think other may label you as a lunatic is the crazy part.

[Rob]

Alpha,

What reasons, if any, do we have to explore space or step foot on other planets?

I am with Cainam on this, would be an excellent way of proving the who ET thing one way or another, which would have a rather large effect on the world. But also, its about the evolution of mankind as a species, the opening up of more possibilities, and the enriching of the living experience. Wouldnt it be amazing if you could choose to live life in space station orbiting Jupiter, then a few years later move to a enormous bubble on the surface of Mars, just because you could? In a way, the more positive things we can experience in life, the wealthier we become as individuals and as a species.
And the alternative would infer approaching stagnation, which would not be good!

Hey Cainam - in that avatar, you look an awful lot like that fella in Mythbusters  

Rob

[Nay]

I love the Mythbusters.  Adam and Jamie.  That Jamie has an incredible constitution!  Did anyone see the show about motion sickness? OMG, I was puking just watching. :sick:  

Ok back on subject.  According to Sylvia Brown, we are going to make contact in 2010.    :abduct:   I wouldn't mind being first in line.

[El-Bortukali]

Alpha,

What reasons, if any, do we have to explore space or step foot on other planets?

I am with Cainam on this, would be an excellent way of proving the who ET thing one way or another, which would have a rather large effect on the world. But also, its about the evolution of mankind as a species, the opening up of more possibilities, and the enriching of the living experience. Wouldnt it be amazing if you could choose to live life in space station orbiting Jupiter, then a few years later move to a enormous bubble on the surface of Mars, just because you could? In a way, the more positive things we can experience in life, the wealthier we become as individuals and as a species.
And the alternative would infer approaching stagnation, which would not be good!

Hey Cainam - in that avatar, you look an awful lot like that fella in Mythbusters  

Rob

yes it would.but it would be better to be able to visit africa without seeing kids die of hunger.

i think we should first rid our species from hunge,diseases,poverty,iletaracy,aging and then,we're off to space.

but i'd love to live the life of a space merchant =)