Evil = Ignorance?

[Tom]

Have you looked into Buddhism at all? There is a diagram called the Wheel of Life. It is a teaching diagram. At the core are three animals running around in a circle. They represent ignorance, craving, and hatred. Ignorance of our true nature leads to the other two, and the three both cause and sustain everything else. There are different types and depths of ignorance, however, and evil is most definitely preceded by it. For similar reasons, even attempts at good can have unpleasant side effects. All things considered, it is a miracle that things aren't much worse than they are.

[Kodemaster]

Hello Gandalf,

I believe we all have a predestined plan, but at the same time a certain allowance for free will. It's like our plan is an outline and we are free to fill in the details.

It's what we *do* with our free will that determines whether we are good or evil.

I believe "good" and "bad" are determined by how we treat people. If we live our lives trying to comfort, help, understand, love and care for others, then good karma is created and we advance spirtually. If we choose to use our free will to manipulate, abuse, neglect, abandon and destroy, then bad karma is created and we don't get ahead spirtually.

That's my opinion...

Jen

[Atlas]

Hi Gandalf

>> know from previous discusions, opinion is divided.. some say that good and evil are simply human constructs only.. <<

Yeah I'm pretty sure I see it this way.

>>For me evil is ignorance.<<

You think so? I don't think that's accurate. Some people know full well that what they are doing is "wrong" and LIKE that it's "wrong." Ignorance of what? We are all very ignorant really, of many things,  and I don't think this equates that we are all very evil.

I see evil as any coercive or aggressive act. Any act that interferes with the freedom and sovereignty of an individual. Murder/theft/fraud/force etc..
But I really have no proof that even this is true, I haven't really studied eithics and morality enough to explain it. For me, I work out my morality backwards from the goal. To me, the goal is a society of peace, freedom, abundance etc, and I think these moral "rules" are most helpful in bringing about theses goals. That's how I see it at least.

Atlas

[Gandalf]

You think so? I don't think that's accurate. Some people know full well that what they are doing is "wrong" and LIKE that it's "wrong." Ignorance of what? We are all very ignorant really, of many things, and I don't think this equates that we are all very evil.
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Hmmm, you have a point there, unless of course the we take it that people who commit acts 'because' they are wrong are STILL doing so due to ignorance... But maybe your right and ignorance is just one of many variables.
I like Tom's description of the budhic wheel though... that implies that ignorance feeds a cycle of hate and craving which self-perpetuates..
I think this could be true, esp when you look at real world situations today like Northern Ireland or Israel/Palestine,, just an endless cycle of hatred/fear perpetuated by ignorance

Douglas

[Tom]

I might not have been clear. I was trying to say that ignorance lies behind most of existence. This can be as small as a single thought. It usually is. Most of us don't have the resources to start a war or to kill millions of people or to develop weapons of mass destruction. If nothing else, people would be reluctant to cause harm if they knew exactly how and when the consequences would hit.

[elasticca]

It seems to me that the premise that evil is synonomous with ignorance fails to address certain moral questions. Let me explain. Most people would agree that certain actions or behaviors are intrinsically  morally offensive, or "wrong". A few examples might include the following: Murder, rape, and  theft. If you were to examine the above examples briefly, I'm inclined to believe that most of us would agree that there is an element of offensiveness in these actions that require punitive actions to be taken against the offender. In short, people desire justice in their societies. But justice is the upholding that which is good and right in a moral sense.

Wether or not ignorance or a lack of knowledge results in offensive behavior is in my opinion, entirely besides the point. I think the bigger question regards our innate ability to draw a distinction between right and wrong in the first place. Where does this abilitycome from? Simply stating that evil is ignorance doesn't seem to answer the question. I would agree however that with knowledge comes responsibility, and this responsibility includes moral accountability for our actions, thoughts, and behaviors. Wether people like it or not, we are indeed accountable for our moral decisions. We endure the consequences of them experientially, and we face legal or punitive consequences for them in our societies.

It's my position that we draw distinctions between right and wrong, not out of ignorance as some would assert, but because their exists a Supreme Being whose very nature is Good, and Right, and Just, and to whom all men are morally accountable to for their actions.

-Michael

[Tom]

My answer to this thread is that evil is not ignorance, but instead that evil is preceded by ignorance. So is most good. When ignorance is removed, however, compassion and wisdom remain. It is then that we can really start to help other people.

[wierdzly]

A person I know who has done passed life therapy on serial killers in prison says. Evil is a manifestation. When evil is done to someone in a past or present life, it can manifest itself in that person.

One of the most evil killers was cured after he experienced his own (past life) murder, by a person on their own evil trip.  This person would kill anyone he could get his hands on but now helps others in prison.

WEIRDZLY!

[Atlas]

>>My answer to this thread is that evil is not ignorance, but instead that evil is preceded by ignorance. So is most good. When ignorance is removed, however, compassion and wisdom remain. It is then that we can really start to help other people.<<

I still am not clear on how you guys are using the term "ignorance." Ignorance of what? Ignorance of WHAT precedes good and evil, and even if some form of ignorance does precede good and evil actions, can it be shown that this ignorance actually has anything at all to do with the action?

Atlas

[Gandalf]

I was wanting to sound out peoples opinions about the nature of evil here..
I know from previous discusions, opinion is divided.. some say that good and evil are simply human constructs only..
I think it comes down to what you define 'evil' as:
For me there is indeed such a thing as 'evil'
For me evil is ignorance. From ignorance stems all delusion, fear, hate misunderstanding etc.
To say that it is a human problem is quite true. All the problems of our world today are stemed in ignorance and fear... so to say that our world is ruled by evil is a true statement as far as I can see.
'Good' on the other hand is enlightenment and understanding as well as love.

Therefor the ideas of a constant battle between good and evil is not a concept to just be dismissed as I feel there is indeed a struggle between 'knowedge' and 'ignorance' in our world.

The problem is made worse by those who have *some* knoweldge, not enough to make them reach for any form of enlightenment but rather to fear it.
They would rather keep the world the way it is because they fear change in any form. Crowely's statement 'a little knoweledge is dangerous' is quite true in this case.

Some of these 'forces of ignorance' are very powerful..
Adrian has pointed out the idea that those in the higher astral realms may have decided against their old policy of trying to bring enlightenment down here to our level and now the idea is for us to go to them, hence the upsurge in interest in OBE, astal exploration and so on...
In this case the forces of ignorance (inc ultra conservative religious groups etc) would view that as a definate threat... however, these ideas are now reaching such a high audience now (with the advent of the internet) which means that hopefully they will be able to do little to stop it despite atempts to discredit it.

BTW I am not a conspiracy nut in any way, its just that it has been my observation that in our world there is a definate stuggle between knowedge and ignorance and that there are those who know that there is 'something more' out there and they fear it as they fear any kind of change... the major religions are particuarily prone to this.

Regards,
Douglas