Sticky Skepticism

[mactombs]

I've had my share of OBEs since I started a year and half ago. I've had OBEs "more real than real". I've had a dream of a past life that I was able to confirm the details of by looking up the historical facts - and several uncanny details at that. But I'm finding myself lately leaning more and more toward viewing OBEs and the sort as physiological phenomenon rather than truly supernatural.

I can't make claims for other peoples' experiences, one way or the other. This is about my own experiences. As amazing as some of them are, I still doubt everything.

Is there ever a point where you stop doubting and accept something as real? At what point does that come? Or is it healthy to remain doubtful of everything? You can't live by uncertainty, but at the same time, I don't like the idea of self-delusion. I'm gullible by nature.

Maybe skepticism and curiosity go well together. Maybe if I'd accepting OBEs as real the first time I experienced one, I would have lost interest a while ago. Sometimes, though, I can't help but to wonder if my inability to have belief in something doesn't hold me back from experiencing more.

[Selski]

Hi mactombs

I can't add anything, but I totally agree with you.  I'm exactly the same, and at times it really bugs me that I'm like that.

Sarah

[Kazbadan]

thas bad to know.
wwhy dont both of you do the card test?

[MisterJingo]

Hey mactombs,

As you can tell, I'm in the same boat . I think if I didn't hold such scepticism then I would experience more, but this seems to suggest that the things I would experience otherwise would be belief generated and potentially hold no truth. This is a point of contention. Should I just believe to get more, or should I stay impartial to these experiences and be true to myself?
I also think I hold such scepticism because I have read deeply into esoteric and occult areas, and all the philosophies of the astral I have read either have huge holes or inconsistencies in them, or they just don't feel right in light of other knowledge I hold.
I think this is area one should have an open mind (scepticism) because it seems no one truly knows what it is or what is going on.

Nb I put scepticism in brackets as if it was true scepticism I think we would write OBE experience off and not consider them like we do. I think it is more an open-mindedness than true scepticism.

[Nay]

I don't doubt anything I've experienced.. wait, I take thet back.  Once I kept asking over and over if one paticular experience was for real, to only have one of the best experiences of my life happen.  I got my answer too.

That is a shame you guys feel that way, you've sounded so sure when you talk of your experiences in the past.  Do you feel that they weren't real now and just your imagination?

[mactombs]

That is a shame you guys feel that way, you've sounded so sure when you talk of your experiences in the past. Do you feel that they weren't real now and just your imagination?

I had to think about this one. I went back and looked at my posts starting when I first joined two years ago. I have to say, I can't believe it's been that long. I also miss the crowd that used to be regulars.

I also found what I had dreamed about in more precise detail:

I was taking a nap. At the end of it I dreamed I was an American on a steamer. It was the late 19th century. I remember something happening [suddenly]. Then I remember falling into the ocean and drowning. It was dark and very cold. I remembered another odd detail about this dream occurrence: there were only two survivors. I woke up for a second before falling back to sleep, and told myself to remember doing a google search when I was awake.

As it turns out, in 1875 the steamer SS Pacific (carrying the equivalent of $5,000,000 in gold) was struck by another ship and sunk. There were 300 people on that ship, and only two survivors. It matches perfectly with what I dreamed, and searching a database of shipwrecks, it's the only steamer I could find from that era to have sunk and had only two survivors. Pretty eerie.

I don't think I was just imagining things when I think back on my experiences, but at the same time I'm not convinced they provide proof positive. I haven't been able to do a card test or anything like that. Just because something feels genuine to me doesn't mean it's authentic. When there's a lot of hope/emotion involved, I know I'm (at least) quite capable of completely conning myself over to the favored conclusion.

This is important to me. I want to know, not just believe.

[MisterJingo]

I don't doubt anything I've experienced.. wait, I take thet back.  Once I kept asking over and over if one paticular experience was for real, to only have one of the best experiences of my life happen.  I got my answer too.

That is a shame you guys feel that way, you've sounded so sure when you talk of your experiences in the past.  Do you feel that they weren't real now and just your imagination?

I'm very sure of my experiences, I'm just unsure of what they actually represent outside of myself . I'm very much aware of what the brain is capable of producing (to all extents and purposes it generates our own personal universe from external stimulus), and what need and belief can generate (what we want to be rather than what is). My questions are concerned with if these experiences are an extension of this generated universe (through the act of imagination) or if they hold any greater reality.

[mactombs]

Thanks, MisterJingo, that puts into clear words what I think, too.

OBEs are still neat if they're all just internal and imagination-generated, but they are something else altogether if they are part of a greater reality. I've had OBEs that suggest both possibilities.

I guess I don't like it when things are inconclusive - I like certainty, or at least high probability. This doesn't seem to always mix well with the nature of OBEs.

[Nay]

I don't doubt anything I've experienced.. wait, I take thet back.  Once I kept asking over and over if one paticular experience was for real, to only have one of the best experiences of my life happen.  I got my answer too.

That is a shame you guys feel that way, you've sounded so sure when you talk of your experiences in the past.  Do you feel that they weren't real now and just your imagination?

I'm very sure of my experiences, I'm just unsure of what they actually represent outside of myself . I'm very much aware of what the brain is capable of producing (to all extents and purposes it generates our own personal universe from external stimulus), and what need and belief can generate (what we want to be rather than what is). My questions are concerned with if these experiences are an extension of this generated universe (through the act of imagination) or if they hold any greater reality.

Ah, yes, now I understand.  I guess then, it comes down to a matter of faith and believing, regardless.

I had a wonderful time this morning and believe that some aspect of me was on another plane.

[jalef]

just as stated above i dont doubt my experiences, i had the personal proof i needed but i still dont really know what to make of them. i think the problem is that too much beliefs are linked with OBEs in general. for example some people conclude from OBEs the existance of several astral plains, spirit guides, demons, gods and so on.
i think that one has to be very carefull in holding apart knowledge and pseudo-knowledge. for example OBEs dont even proof the existance of an afterlife because it can all still be somehow generated by the brain and with brain death the ability to OBE could also vanish.
i need much more experience in this area because all my projections so far were into the real time zone. or maybe it just isnt hammered enough into my subconscious

[Selski]

I agree with MisterJingo too.  And like mactombs, I've had my fair share of "possible afterlife" experiences along with my fair share of "total random nonsense" experiences.  

I think I struggle with the idea of taking on any beliefs.  I can only assume it is to do with my upbringing.  I was brought up a born-again Christian where beliefs were taken as truth and fact.  Ever since I rebelled against it many years ago, I've shunned believing in anything.  Because I didn't want to fall into the trap of having "everything worked out" and "put into a tidy box".  I like the idea of chaos, randomness, unsurety etc.  

I think I'm at the point where I believe that something is going on, but I haven't a clue what.  It could be a million different things and settling on one (or a few) as my solid beliefs seems... awfully narrow-minded.

There are just too many possibilities for me.

I wish I could settle with a few heartfelt beliefs - I would feel more like a rounded person - but for some reason, a part of me won't let me take anything on board for more than a few weeks.  :confused:

If my OBEs/experiences were consistent and formed a pattern, then I would perhaps be more inclined to come to some logical conclusion about them, however they tend to be all over the place.  Again, perhaps that is a reflection of me wanting randomness and chaos?  Who knows.

I certainly don't.  

And Kaz - I have done the card experiment.  It's in the Astral FAQ section.  Was one of my better experiences.

Sarah

[Kazbadan]

Thanks for the info selski. But if u have done it why dont u still believe?

I wish i could project so good has Frank, Robert or others...i would do such experiments everyday/week and gather lots of results. Only then i would be know for sure.

[Selski]

Hi Kaz

Believe what though Kaz?  Believe that I've left my body?  But remote viewing is basically what the card experiment could be.  Remote viewers don't need to leave their bodies.  I just happened to (possibly) leave mine to see the card.  Then again, I might just have happened to perceive I left my body to see it, and in actual fact it was remote viewing.

Or believe in an afterlife?  Well, when I leave (or perceive to leave) my body, my physical body is still alive and well where I left it.  So who's to say that just because I'm now wandering around without the physical, that means that I survive death.  How so?  My physical is still alive.  Who knows what happens if the physical dies?

If you could project as well as Frank (for instance) - what conclusions would you come to? And why?

Sarah

[Kazbadan]

The main conclusion would be: this is not a dream, something strange and really paranormal is happening here.
I would conclude that brain can obtain information in strange ways. Do u get my point?

maybe i wouldnt prove obes, remote view etc but something was happening, and it wasnt just dreams...but something more that can connect my brain/mind to this reality, on a different way than normal.

[Selski]

Hi Kaz

The main conclusion would be: this is not a dream, something strange and really paranormal is happening here.
I would conclude that brain can obtain information in strange ways. Do u get my point?

Ah yes, I understand completely.  I came to this conclusion the first time I had an OBE - that something strange was happening - it was definitely no dream.  I guess I'm getting blase with my experiences.  They are wonderful and special - and so so different to dreams.

I ought to be more grateful!  

Sarah

P.S.  And Portugal should win the World Cup - my favourite player is Luis Figo.  That might have something to do with his dashing good looks rather than his footballing skills...  

[Nostic]

Is there ever a point where you stop doubting and accept something as real? At what point does that come?

When you can effect and/or observe the "real world" in a direct and highly predictable manner. Otherwise, I guess there will always be room for doubt. Further, without that, you still have to deal with your day-to-day life- your OBE experiences not having much more of an effect on your life than vivid dreams.
I guess, in the meantime you just have to believe in what is possible. When considering if something is possible or not, I'll often ask myself "well, why wouldn't it be possible?". And I can never come up with a good enough answer for that one. So I just keep moving forward.

[Kazbadan]

I dont have right now the conditions to learn obing properly (in some rare ocasions i will obe) but one day i hope i can learnt it and prove it to myself.

Also, even if obes are not real ( i mean, they are just dreams) one can still learn lots of things with it. For instance, dont forget what lucid dreaming or dream incubation can do for creative solutions for problems.

Selski, thanks for what you said about Portugal i hope we can win, but we have a very hard task! Yes, Figo is indeed a good player, but Deco or Cristiano Ronaldo (or Ricardo Carvalho on defense) are very good too.