Astral Projectors Vs. Lucid Dreamers

[Leo Volont]

Astral Projectors Vs. Lucid Dreamers

I had spend some time writing for a Lucid Dreaming Page, and now upon reviewing the sentiment that flavors this Astral Projection Page, I discern a surprising difference.   Astral Projectors are generally Spiritualists, while the Lucid Dreamers are for the most part Materialists.  I should have known.  Looking at this categorically, Astral Projectors are willing to suppose that Subjective Experience and Supernatural Field is inherently objective and real, thus supplying every prerequisite for Spirituality.  Even when provided with exactly the same experiences that the Astral Projectors find objective and Spiritual, the Dreamers will "interpret' the content as unreal, imaginary, symbolic.  To them Subjective Experience is ultimately arbitrary and disconnected from Reality.  The Dreamer concedes no Spiritual Dimension.

I was often puzzled by Dreamer Beliefs and Behavior.  Even when experiencing Sleep Paralysis, when it was easiest to Astrally Project, they would insist upon trying to turn the situation into a technique for Lucid Dreaming.  I never understood it.  I would write essay after essay presenting the opinion that Techniques should not have to reach beyond the obvious opportunities, and that Lucid Dreaming Techniques should be pursued when in Dreams, but from Waking Consciousness through relaxation, and especially during Sleep Paralysis when the Astral Body and the Physical Body are obviously going out of phase and synch, then Astral Projection would be both easier and more intuitively accessible.  But the Materialistic bent of the Lucid Dreaming Community created a bias against Astral Projection.  They simply refused to believe that the phenomena was subjectively real.

I knew they were materialists, and so I argued that it was not necessary to believe that Astral Projection was 'Objectively' Real.  All they had to do was to concede that Astral Projection was as "Subjectively" Real as their beloved Lucid Dreaming.   But their bias against Astral Projection was not subject to any logic but was more visceral and impulsive.  They never thought about it.  They just didn't like it, and would not do it.   Even when they DID IT, and would describe an Astral Projection in all the classic details, they would label it as some funny unique kind of Lucid Dream. 

Now I am not saying that Lucid Dreamers cannot be Spiritualists.  Indeed, a Spiritualist can make good use of Lucid Dreaming.  You see, Astral Projection nearly always starts the Spirit off at the most basic of Spiritual Planes – that Stratum that almost exactly overlaps and incorporates the Physical Plane.  But Lucid Dreaming, practiced by an experienced Spiritualist, can carry one up to some of the Higher Planes almost instantly. 

So even the most gung-ho Astral Projector, when in his dreams, should not neglect the wonderful opportunity that Lucid Dreaming can provide.  Yes, one can depart a Lucid Dream and enter into an ordinary Physical Plane Astral Projection, but such would be a missed opportunity.  One can Astrally Project when one is, well, Astrally Projecting. 

Both disciplines, Astral Projection and Lucid Dreaming, have their strengths and advantages.  A well rounded Spiritualist should be accomplished in both fields.

But, yes, the Spiritualist Tendency exemplified by the Community of Astral Projectors would indicate that they are better geared for taking advantage of  these opportunities than the more Materialistic Community of Lucid Dreamers who cannot digest or integrate and benefit from their Experiences, either Lucid or Astral, because, essentially, they reject their own Reality.

[Mydral]

Hmm you should write a book haha.. 

very nicely said.

[Leo Volont]

Hmm you should write a book haha.. 

very nicely said.

Well, as much as anything 'online' is 'nicely said', where the protocol is to never do more than a single edit and rewrite.   We all just say it and hit enter.  And so whatever merit may be found must be owing to substance and sense, because there is never any time or care spent in polish. 

[andonitxo]

Dear Leo,

You're from other galaxy, aren't you? Just kidding.

I was born materialist, I admit it. Only in this last two years I've learnt not to worry about money, even if I'm not an egoistical person. I mean, bank credits are too high and to pay every month's fees I have to take care of my domestic economy. But since I sold my house and I'm on renting, I feel so free and light...

Pinpointing your conclusions, I must say I've had two lucid dreams... occasionally, and I've been trying to astral project since adolescence (about 15 years) and I've been but unable to do so also. And thanks God, because in the process I've learnt so much about myself and my psyche that otherwise I wouldn't know right now.

I'd love to project to the astral, just to fly and to investigate. Everytime I dream I'm flying I feel so absolutely happy...!. But I took the wrong techniques, and more important, I didn't know myself so the process was similar to push a wall.

Thanks for your words, they're mind beating and kind. I'll meditate on them.

[jub jub]

I lucid dream but I consider myself a spiritualist. I also astral project. To tell the truth, it's hard to discern between the two.

[Mendel]

I used to LD since I was a child. I didn't realize until about 6 years ago,
that there was even such a thing as AP or OBE's. Before this, I just assumed
dreams were all in the mind. I think most people do.

It's only when I read books about OBE'ing that I realized LD's may include more than just *my* imagination,
they're made by *everyone's* imagination - everyone alive and a lot of deceased people, too.

It's actually a bit difficult to prove that more than one mind makes up one's dreams. Subjectively,
you begin to see things in LD's or AP's that you couldn't have possibly dreamt of.
But to get objective evidence, it takes lots of experiments and a little luck. I have done many
experiments visiting people in the astral and proven to myself, that I obtained the data not
from my imagination but theirs!

So, I consider myself lucky, to know a little secret, that when you LD, you explore not only your own mind,
but everyone else's, too.

-mike

[bounda]

i got through the first sentence and realized it was confusing the excrement outta me lol i was all like  but anyways i think that what ur trying to get across is that projectors are like... more open to different beliefs and such right?

[Leo Volont]

Hi Leo,



....Does consensus define reality? Can we explore an inner construct at will and call that reality? Are there levels of consensus and consturct realities? Can ANY inner experience involve consensus?

Yes, one's conceptual construct can be very restrictive and confining.  ESPECIALLY the notion that everything is from the Brain and the "Subconscious" Mind.  These Materialistic Assumptions, commonly held by Dreamers, limits what they are willing to accept or even perceive.  whereas Astral Projectors are prone to treat their Experiences as Objective Perceptions, not from inside the Self but from External Sources, or at least the Wider Spiritual Acknowledgement of a Big Self -- a Collective Self.   

[Leo Volont]

Dear Leo,

You're from other galaxy, aren't you? Just kidding.

I was born materialist, I admit it. Only in this last two years I've learnt not to worry about money,

No, no, no... we are talking Philosophy... not shopping.

A "Materialist" is one who renounces and rejects the idea of any Spiritual Reality.  so there is no Astral Plane, no Spiritual Plane, no psyschic powers or ESP.  It is what Atheists believe.  Atheists may think they are only negating God, but when they are forced to be consistant, then they need to also reject a great many correllaries.

It may seem a rational and a reasonable position -- the rejection of what Science cannot prove.  However, Science has some extremely strict protocols so that almost anything can be negated.  For science to positively validate anything, there needs to be double-blind experiments that cancel out every loose variable.  So nothing experienced in Real Life can ever be positively affirmed.  Any variable destroyes proof.

But we all KNOW there is a spiritual dimension.

The easiest example is that many people KNOW when they are being watched.  Here is an example:  Back during the Vietnam War the Sergeants used to rotate the position of Point Man to every member of the platoon, to be 'fair'.  Well, these Platoon were, and their sergeants were soon weeded out -- wiped out by enemy ambushes.  So the Sergeants learned to pick their Point Men for one minimal skill.   What the Sergeants would do would be to observe his soldiers from behind, or from out of sight somewhere, and notice who would turn around and look.  If everytime you looked at the back of 'Private Jone's' head, he starts looking around to find out who is watching him, then he is the perfect Point Man... the guy will 'feel it' when an Enemy Ambush is laying in wait for him, waiting for him to take those last few steps forward into the death zone.  Oh, Yassar Arafat would have made the perfect 'Point Man' -- he was famous for his ability to discern Zionist Death Squads, Ambushes, even approaching Gun Ship Helicopters still dozens of miles away.   If somebody even 'thought' about killing Yassar Arafat, then somehow he would know it, and he had the awareness to act upon his feelings.  Hey, its not paranoia when they really are trying to get you. 

The Skill really is more universal than most people will admit.  Try applying it.  Observe people and see that they will sense you and look your way.  Oh, it DOES NOT work with beautiful women.  Beautiful Women are so used to being stared at that they make a point of ignoring it even when they appreciate it.

Oh, and we often hear from Crime Victims, that they were experiencing a sense of dread right before they were 'jumped'... attacked by surprise.  They were being stalked, and they knew it, but didn't do anything about it.  This is often a matter of regret for them.  They resolve to trust their feelings from then on. 

World Travelers learn to pay strict attention to these 'instincts'.  Where you are unfamiliar with the country and the towns and don't really know much of the language, one has nothing 'reasonable' to rely upon, and so feelings and intuitions shoot way up in priority.

     

[Leo Volont]

So, I consider myself lucky, to know a little secret, that when you LD, you explore not only your own mind,
but everyone else's, too.

-mike

Oh, indeed... I used to bring it up all the time, but the most obvious proof of the Objectivity of the Spiritual and Collective Realm is a SHARED DREAM.  If two people every have the same Dream, or rather, if they share the same Dream Scene, then suddenly we have the Objective Continuity, the Criteria for Reality, that all of the Materialists would insist upon.   Of course, then they reject the notion that there can ever be a Shared Dream.  Science always falls back on the a priori notion that "the impossible can never happen", and so they reject some things out of hand.

But I have had a Shared Dream, or perhaps me and an acquaintance had Astrally Projected.  We met at the schools cafeteria late at night in the early morning hours and we were looking for food.  We met and talked and then moved on.  The next day when we met in the hallway, we each remembered that we had "dreamed" of the other and when we both came up with those 'sly looks' at the same time, we both immediately suspected what had occurred.  We both simulataneously described out end of the dream, not waiting to be prompted, but each going over each detail of place, situation and dialogue at the saem time.  The Shared Dream had been an Objective Reality.

Spirituality Proven.   

[Leo Volont]

i got through the first sentence and realized it was confusing the excrement outta me lol i was all like  but anyways i think that what ur trying to get across is that projectors are like... more open to different beliefs and such right?

yeap... you picked that up pretty good.

That is part of good essay writing technique, that one has to present in the first paragraph a promise of what one will be able to demonstrate and conclude by the finish of the essay.  So, if you are willing to take a good essay writer at his word, then often you only need to read the first sentence or two.

[blade5x]

Well then there's me who doesn't really believe there is a difference between a WILD and an EP/AP, maybe because of my lack of realistic experiences the past few months. But I more believe the dreams can be a portal to these spiritual planes, or maybe dreams are a part of it already

The first few WILDs I performaned were amazingly real, like full blown EPs with hyperwareness, now they are all sort of me... meh... very dream-like, which usually always take place in my general area of sleeping (within one mile or kilometer).

I have tried going to through mirrors in a dream (I've only done this twice), and one time ended up in a white void, and another time I ended up in a black void (possibly a tunnel because I was color streaking by and I was moving at a painfully fast speed). Still working on this I'm also working on a shared dream, my little brother has finally gotten around to having a few of his own WILDs lately (I guess SP runs in the family?)

[jub jub]

Are you on the "I love philosopy" forum?

[Leo Volont]

Are you on the "I love philosopy" forum?

"I love Philosophy".

Isn't that redundant.  The word 'Philosophy' comes from the Greek 'pholos' -- love; and 'sophia' -- wisdom.

so 'I love philosophy' would be 'I love the love of wisdom'.   I suspect that if there actually is a "Love of Philosophy" Forum, than it must have been something of a nerdy inside joke.

No, not me.  I once took a degree in Philosophy... so by now I am ready for the "I Hate Philosophy" Forum. What do they say, 'familiarity breeds contempt'.   

[Flannery]

ESPECIALLY the notion that everything is from the Brain and the "Subconscious" Mind.  These Materialistic Assumptions, commonly held by Dreamers, limits what they are willing to accept or even perceive.  whereas Astral Projectors are prone to treat their Experiences as Objective Perceptions, not from inside the Self but from External Sources, or at least the Wider Spiritual Acknowledgement of a Big Self -- a Collective Self.

Both are equally "close-minded" then.

By the way, if something comes from the "unconscious" it's no lesser important. It could be argued that it is more important, even, for the individual. We have something to learn from our unconscious, and it is our stuff, not to be confused with other people's stuff.

[Leo Volont]

Both are equally "close-minded" then.

By the way, if something comes from the "unconscious" it's no lesser important. It could be argued that it is more important, even, for the individual. We have something to learn from our unconscious, and it is our stuff, not to be confused with other people's stuff.

"no less important".  Think about it.

If it comes from the Collective Consciousness, then it comes from a Totality, from a working Concensus.  But if it is rooted entirely within an individual, well, is it not immediately suspect to pathology or aberration.  Yes, important, but as a diagnostic symptom.

So, no.  When we look at the Qualities and even the Quantities of various things, with any degree of attention or reflection, we come to realize that it is almost always mere rhetoric to say that "Everything is 'just as important' as everything else". 

An Whale and a Gnat are both living things, but certainly the one is not nearly "no less important" than the other, which hardly touches the significance of the comparison between the Collective Consciousness and the individual unconscious; between God and the garbage dump of one man's mind.   

[SilverSlider]

The easiest example is that many people KNOW when they are being watched.     

Hah yeah Leo, so true...it makes it hard to observe humans, something I find myself doing often.

[Enoch]

Lucid dreaming and astral projection are one and the same. If you wake up in a dream out of body or if you conciously leave your body. The only differance is the huge amounts of wasted energy during concious obe that could be avoided and used for other things like a longer stay or better control. Or even to use the energy to see if you are in a real dream or a made up scenario. either way we are trying to accomplish the same things. Two dreamers that i respect very much would agree Castaneda and Moss.
         We are the people that see from outside the box. So PLEASE lets not be like all those "others" and argue over such petty things. Even if ld and obe are differant (there not) we need to be the ones to find what they are and HELP each other.
     

[EqualThoughts]

first of all enoch, there is no box dont give me that crap
i definately believe that obe and ld are different, have had both and they have major differences.

[Leo Volont]

first of all enoch, there is no box dont give me that crap
i definately believe that obe and ld are different, have had both and they have major differences.

Yes, I would agree.

I had once broken out of a Lucid Dream into an OBE -- I had positioned myself horizontally and face up, and launched upward to go straight into outer space.  In the Dream, it was daytime and the Dream Sky had been cloudless and blue.   In the Dream I arose quickly and soon I pierced into Space as the sky became black and the stars became ultra clear.  Then all at once the Dream Scene simply shredded apart and unraveled and I found myself OBE, floating just a few hundred feet over the hotel I had been staying at.

If one can go from One Category to another Category, then the Categories MUST BE DISTINCT.

One can say they are the Same only by subsuming both phenomena into some wider inclusive category, but that would be to go Intellectually Backwards, wouldn't it?

To understand things, we must examine the details.  Details are important.

Now, yes, I can agree that both Lucid Dreaming and OBE are important and valuable.  But it would be wrong to say they are the same thing. 

[Enoch]

First off eqaul thoughts lets try and look at this as helping not being a know it all. Because trust me you dont know it all. There is a box and if you dont know what i mean go back to school. or at least dont be so rude until you have a clue.
The box that i refer to is the one most of you live in day to day. Its the robot mode that most of the world lives in all the time with little or no clue.
Second the only differance between ld and obe is that with obe you wake up as you are leaving your body with lucid dreaming you wake up already out. The only differance that mystics and science has come up with is that its possible that ld is mearly an projection of your concious self where as with obe it is a projection of you concious self with full energy body attached. Either way they are no differant as far as what can be done and prctices to get better are the same if you ld or obe. Than might as well finish this off with remote viewing. which is projectiing your concious with focus and enough control to go where you please. This is sometimes seen as a window or with scrying also.
Please do explain the major differances by the way? thank you.
You realize it is very common to have a "dream in a dream" to wake up in obe or ld and have another while dreaming is VERY common. It also coincides with passing the second gate of dreaming when you do this.