Is this an accurate chart of conciousness?....

[Tongo]

Okay I read the replies I got from my other (rather unpopular post) about it being nothing more than lucid dreaming, and i've done some further research and it occurs to me many people have various degree's of conciousness when it comes to AP. I fear some may just be regular lucid dreams in some peoples cases.

This is something I found somewhere else. A chart on astral projection exact conciousness chart.

Levels of lucidity:
0% - Unconcious
20% - Semi-concious (lucid dream)
40% - Lucidity doubt (most projections are here)
60% - Certainty - (where certain having projection)
80% - Self awareness (same awareness as waking state)
100% - Cosmoconciousness - expansion of conciousness (Nirvana)

Do you people think this is accurate? where would YOU say most peoples projections are at on the chart.

[Stookie]

I don't understand the association with level of lucidity to area of consciousness. You can be in any area of consciousness, yet have little lucidity and memory of it ever occurring.

In my view, lucid dreaming is astral projection. It takes place in the astral, probably somewhere between F12 and F15 in Monroe's model of consciousness. If you can lucid dream, you can astral project.

If I'm reading this right, your chart also says that lucid dreams only happen with 20% lucidity, but I've been just as lucid as in real life, if not more.

Please correct me if I'm not understanding this right.

[Tongo]

Hmmm lucid dreaming is astral projection? I always thought it was more than that, I always thought OBE or astral projection call if what you will, is specifically being CONCIOUS whilst out of your body. Otherwise I dont see what use astral travel/lucid dreaming is as you cant really be concious or wary enough to know what the hell is going on until you remember it when you wake up but even then its just a mish mash of memory that is random and makes little sense.

Well I dont mean to be rude or anything but (if you are) maybe your not actually having astral projections. Your Lucid dreaming. If you ask me proper astral projection (even though i've never had one but i've done alot of research) involves a good degree of conciousness. Please tell me your further thoughts.

This is real confusing for me really as i'm constantly hearing from people that lucid dreaming is astral travel then hearing that astral travel involves alot of conciousness/lucidity which is something Dreams dont have. When your asleep and dreaming one is unconcious. The ability to be awake when dreaming so to speak is what I believe to be a real out of body experience/AP then someone else will say AP is dreaming. Its all like "!?!?!?!?what the hell is AP dammit!?!!?! is it dreaming/lucid dreaming or more?!?!?!" lol hehe.

[T.L.]

This is pretty hilarious. Okay tongo, you said in the first post on this topic that you are following up to a post you previously made. Someone here replied then you replied with a second post. Under you name it says you have only made two posts on astral pulse. The two posts you made were in this topic alone, so therefore you had no previous post on astral pulse forums. I know what you are referring to also, you are referring to a post you made on Astral Society forums, not Astral Pulse. Where in rather broken english claim that astral projection is nothing more than a dream, and therefore not real at all. That about sums it up, right?

[AndrewTheSinger]

Tongo, only your heart can tell, as long as it is filled with love for all the creatures.



No, seriously, everything that you experience while not awake can be called 'dreaming', the different names refer to the varying intensity and realism of the experiences, and the level of your self-awareness.

From lower to higher awareness:

Dream - Lucid Dream - Astral Projection - O.B.E - R.I.P.

[Stookie]

Tongo - I think your engaged in semantics. A dream is a series of experiences that happen without you being aware, and then are remembered when you wake up.

A lucid dream is a when you realize that you're dreaming while it's in the process of happening and can take control, knowing that you're really asleep in bed. It becomes as real as everyday life. It's not a common thing and for most people is very hard to do on purpose.

Do you agree with me on this point?

[Tongo]

Yeh I agree with you on that point but to say it becomes as real as everyday life? no.

I've had my fair share of lucid dreams in my time like one I remember was even thinking to myself "Hmmm shall I wake up now or hang around a bit?" kinda cool but not really much use.

And yes Clever clever T.L.

[T.L.]

Not very much use is a pretty ignorant thing to say. Ignorant as in not knowing. Each has his/her own opinion but saying no use goes beyond the opinion line, even sleep experts will tell you that it can have real applications. In your example where you said shall I wake up or hang around a bit, it sounds more like you had a semi lucid dream. You were aware you were dreaming but I dont think you were aware you have full control over the dream. Even if you were to argue that lucid dreams are the only thing possible and ap is not, you would still have to see the real applications lucid dreams have. For example people with a fear of heights can use a lucid dream to confront their fear and know all at the same time that they are perfectly safe. Any real life fear can be worked out, and there are more applications than just that, thats just an example. So to say that Lucid dreams have not really much use, is pretty much wrong and just an assumption. Regards,
                         T.L.

[Tongo]

Hmmm well they can be fun thats for sure and yes as far as my semi lucid dream goes I had some degree of control over what was happening which was smashing a convenience store up with a baseball bat (I had a lot of anger in my life back then) it was cool but I think possibly and maybe hopefully, it is a long shot away from concious OBE. I also remember when i tried to wake up I couldnt always do it. It was'nt I might add a feeling of possibly having my astralbody/spirit or whatever go back and connect into my physical or anything it was just having the strength to pull myself out of the dream and wake up.

I guess this whole actual conciousness in OBE's/AP debate is too bloody complex. (scratches his head in frustration)

[Selski]

Dream - Lucid Dream - Astral Projection - O.B.E - R.I.P.

Andrew - that's the best thing I've read on these boards for a long time... 

Sarah

[T.L.]

Tongo I know on astral society they were bashing you pretty hard for what you said. I think it was thier frustration that you didnt go and read all of the past posts on things and topics that you brought up. I know you just have a healthy skepticism about you and thats good, just dont claim that something isnt real because you think it isnt, just be a skeptic and say I dont think ...etc..etc.. or maybe its... Im all for being skeptic till you experience thats great. In my definition of LD (Lucid Dream) I have full control, not just control over me but control over the place I can change the place at will, completely dissolve the dreamscape and start fresh, I have full control over everything, people, places, actions, reactions. That is how I define lucid dream. There are different degrees of lucidity but I only define LD's as LD's when I can control everything and I know who I am in physical life etc... Ill know Im in my bed and even what position I lay in even while being in a dreamscape. I like your skepticism though its a good thing dont let anyone tell you different, just be careful how you approach subjects is all Im saying.

[Stookie]

Tongo-

Lucid dreams, OBEs & APs can all take place with it being as real as everyday life. They can also take place semi-consciously, where it's like you're half-awake or drunk. It can be hard to hold onto awareness and it can fluctuate during the experience. You can exit your body with full awareness, and then slowly lose awareness during the experience, or vice versa. It takes a lot of practice & concentration to hold a large amount of awareness for a long time.

A reason why some people give up so easy might be that their level of lucidity isn't what was expected. It just takes practice. But when it happens, it's amazing.

[Novice]

what the hell is AP dammit!?!!?! is it dreaming/lucid dreaming or more?!?!?!" lol hehe.

One problem you are finding is that there are multiple definitions of AP/OBE. Some people lump them all together. Some seperate lucid dreaming from OBE/AP. Some seperate all three. Some don't believe in any of it.

I think your best bet is start experiencing these things for yourself and draw your own conclusions. In the end that is all that matters. You will doubt what anyone else tells you until you experience it for yourself (or at least you should).

I'm personally not positive how all of these relate to one another. I have some thoughts, but as usual they are dynamic and change with any new info/experiences I have. At present, I do agree that each of these are somewhat different. I would probably concede that what most people define as a lucid dream is limited to saying "hey I'm dreaming" and doing some flying/floating/walking through walls type stuff. But that's about it. Lucidity fluctuates even during the experience and most cannot sustain any type of lucidity for long periods of time. I admit that when my lucidity is low this is typically all I do.

However, if my awareness is high enough, I never stay in a dream. I phase to other people/places. Now here's the ambiguous part for me. I'm nto sure how I can define the difference between lucid dreaming and AP. I think they are similar but possibly vary in degrees of awareness, similar to your initial post. But I could be wrong. This is simply the way I personally interpret them at present.

How do I know when I'm AP and not just in a dream, because I consciously shift my awareness. I have full control over the dream. I can start it, stop it, replay it or leave it altogether. There is no doubt and no 'trying' to do this. I simply do it.

My experiences while AP vary in quality from lucid dreams on multiple levels. One, where/who I visit is driven by my intent, so its very focused and not randomly changing/fluctuating. Two, colors, textures, experiences are more vivid and 'real' than lucid dreams. And as I've mentioned here in the past, in several instances, those experiences were more real than any physical experience I've ever had.

Yeh I agree with you on that point but to say it becomes as real as everyday life? no.

Hmm...I think there's a difference between what feels real and conscious awareness. When you are dreaming (even if completely unaware) the dream is absolutely real to you at the time. It's only once you wake up that you realize it wasn't 'real'.

And I think we all experience varying levels of conscious awareness while awake just as we do while asleep. I know I'm not the only one who's gotten into a car to go somewhere, had my mind wonder during the trip, only to blink and realize I'm where I was heading but I don't remember a single thing about how I got there! Ever walk through a mall towards a store and not remember a single thing in any display window you passed? These are just two examples, but people in general go through life fairly unaware, except for perhaps their immediate needs/surroundings.

Reality and conscious awareness are not tied to physical life. Meaning the two exist within the physical, but are not bound to it. So I do not believe you can tie those two to physical life and use that as a guage on experiences. I think you need to isolate them from the environment in which they occur (physical, dream, AP) and go from there.

[Lysear]

  I dont know whether I think there is a dreamworld. I would suggest that there is an astral world, and when you are dreaming you are only interacting in it to a certain degree, you only have a dim conciousness of it. when you project into the astral world, you can be much more lucid, more present in your conciousness.


                                          Joe

[Stookie]

I totally agree Lysear. I find very little difference between phasing and when I lucid dream, other than my method of becoming aware. When I lucid dream or phase, I don't take the environment to be a correct perception of reality - I know there is an underlying reality to what I'm experiencing. Same as in the physical or any other area of consciousness. It's easy to get wrapped up in it (at any level) and think it's a definite reality, but then one day you experience a deeper level...  as far as what's being spoken of here, it's all astral.

[sk8chik]

Our souls were in the astral plane when they chose to come to this planet to learn the lessons Earth has to offer, so I feel its counter-productive to put so much energy into going back to the astral plane rather than learning those lessons we came here to Earth to learn.

[Stookie]

Perhaps for some of us the lessons on earth are tied into the discovery of what's beyond earth. Ignoring the astral would be living in ignorance for some us.

We all currently exist in the astral plane though. We're just not all conscious of it.

[Sharpe]

Okay I read the replies I got from my other (rather unpopular post) about it being nothing more than lucid dreaming, and i've done some further research and it occurs to me many people have various degree's of conciousness when it comes to AP. I fear some may just be regular lucid dreams in some peoples cases.

This is something I found somewhere else. A chart on astral projection exact conciousness chart.

Levels of lucidity:
0% - Unconcious
20% - Semi-concious (lucid dream)
40% - Lucidity doubt (most projections are here)
60% - Certainty - (where certain having projection)
80% - Self awareness (same awareness as waking state)
100% - Cosmoconciousness - expansion of conciousness (Nirvana)

Do you people think this is accurate? where would YOU say most peoples projections are at on the chart.

Omg no, you're dead wrong.
First of all you have to understand that human consciousness may not be real, it might be just an idea.
Second, "consciousness" is obviously made for surviving, if a living entity would be unconscious it would be efficient, but it would make the same mistakes over and over again because it is not aware of the mistake it's making. If you're conscious of the fact you made a mistake, this "software" will be implanted in your subconscious, which would expand your view about reality. -Freud
Like you believing in stuff like ACTUALLY going OUT of your body.
If you believe in this consciously, you will create a map in your subconscious.
If you would've studied NLP you would understand that you cannot have a perfect map of reality, because the map we make in our subconscious is never exact, it's mixed with feelings. You can "buy" a fake map so to speak.
Just understand that "The map is not the territory" -Alfred Korzybsky.

Some of you are obviously making amateuristicly flawed models about consciousness, and I suggest you stop doing it before you lose track of reality and do something illogical.

[Bird]

The only difference between LD and projection is to me that when I become lucid in the middle of a dream I have missed the start. When I project, I go consciously into the dream right from the start.
Both can take place in the RTZ or somewhere else and the shift can take place at any stage.
The degree of lucidity and control is something different altogether. That's how I see it.

[owenp185]

From my limited knowledge of what conciousness etc.. is i think that once the physical body switches off or enters a certain mode. It triggers a shift into another dimension/ reality ill call it x for now, the dimension x is limited by the person expeirencing that moment. The more one is in the present and the more energy (existing in physical and x)which is gathered which both have to be understanded, changes the way you are limited or the variation in perception of the experience. In this dimension all matter is conciousness and the subconscious e.g. thought, feeling, senses. The limitation is not a good or bad thing though certain areas of this limitation maybe preferred than others.
I believe we came from this dimension x before physical and the memory wasn't erased not even temporarily but stored which maybe the akarish records (forgot name). To get back to the original question i think there is no difference between a dream or a projection but it does not mean that the experience is worthless as dreams are still just as important. I believe there is a connection between the physical and dimension x which is a link greater then our understanding.
A thought of mine is that this can cause clairvoyance, ghosts and many other paranormal and psychic abilities/events and even a way to intertwine both realities/ dimension. I belive that phychic type abilities are originally from dimension x and you mix these abilities into physical and physical matter can be mixed into this other dimension which means you can actually enter physical locations. I think i may of went a bit off topic ive forgot the question

[greggkroodsma]

Okay I read the replies I got from my other (rather unpopular post) about it being nothing more than lucid dreaming, and i've done some further research and it occurs to me many people have various degree's of conciousness when it comes to AP. I fear some may just be regular lucid dreams in some peoples cases.

This is something I found somewhere else. A chart on astral projection exact conciousness chart.

Levels of lucidity:
0% - Unconcious
20% - Semi-concious (lucid dream)
40% - Lucidity doubt (most projections are here)
60% - Certainty - (where certain having projection)
80% - Self awareness (same awareness as waking state)
100% - Cosmoconciousness - expansion of conciousness (Nirvana)

Do you people think this is accurate? where would YOU say most peoples projections are at on the chart.

That's very accurate.  I would say that most people are around 30%. 

[Gandalf]

As has been said many times before (and will be many times again!):

Dreams, lucid dreams, astral projections, phasing experiences are all variations of THE SAME THING.

They are ALL non physical - ie astral experiences. THE ONLY THING THAT DIFFERS IS YOUR LEVEL OF CONSCIOUS AWARENESS.

You 'astrally project' every night, just with a very limited level of conscious awareness. The goal of phasing is to experience the astral with 100% awareness.

One technique I use is to lucid dream and then raise my awareness from there, however in my opnion this is only ever partially successful. You can raise your awareness to 99% from a lucid dream, but I find that I have always had that 1% missing. It may not seem like much but that missing 1% makes a HUGE difference!

That is why the best approach is to phase from full wakefulness, rather than from a lower 'dream state'.

This is the aim of the phasing process.

Others here claim they can reach 100% awareness from lucid dream states, in which case, I'm jealous!

[Stookie]

Amen!

[Awakened_Mind]

I don't know if I like all these percentages of consciousness 

How can it be quantified?

-AM

[Novice]

I don't know if I like all these percentages of consciousness 

How can it be quantified?

-AM

That's just it. You can't scientifically quantify it like this. However, the concept, based on my experience, is correct. The 'concept' being that the awareness you achieve during these experiences is a variable. And that you can usually categorize each experiences based on the level of lucidity you achieve within each one.