New Scientist's paper about OBE

[bjb1234]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PQAc_Z2OfQ

Above is the link to a official video from the scientists, showing the experiment and explaining what they did.

After viewing the video you will see most news articles about these experiments are very misleading.

It doesnt explain much, but atleast there trying to come up with some explanations for things like OBEs.

Altho in these experiments there was no OBEs involved at all.

Just visual suggestion, illusion to trick the brain.

[Sharpe]

A theory that was taught as fact (by alot of people) a while ago was that the moon came out of the sea....

You cant say all science is truth, cause as somebody said earlier, its always been updated and changed based upon NEW DISCOVERIES.

No you can't use that metaphor as an example.
Like I said, science is closer to the truth then anything else.
Being physically out of your body hasn't been proven in OBE.

As a matter of fact, I'll use a metaphor if YOU like these so much.
True, people thought the moon came out of the sea.
But maybe SOME people don't know what OBE is and they make up theories like ACTUALLY going out of your body, now this can be interpretated as your own metaphor: The people didn't knew where the moon went when it went down the sea so they logically cleared that up with what they knew as reality.

Now we know that the moon rotates around earth.
And most people, espescially intelligent people know that eliminative materialism is reality, because it doesn't defy logic and it makes absolute sense being crystal clear in every field.
So it shouldn't be too hard to understand that being in an OBE is merely a dream where you position yourself as if you're outside your body.
You allready have a map of the world in your brain so if you're in a dream you can float around in your preconscious where you are aware of what reality looks like in your memory, because every single detail is allready stored in your subconscious.

I notice most believers in the paranormal use the same example over and over again.
They use: "We used to believe this and that, but we start learning more and more about our existence/reality".
It's always the same, but you have to believe that maybe what you believe IS the wrong one, and science allready moved past that and that most of you are floating in a forgotten ship.

[Mustardseed]

Let me see...................my guess is ...............17......... male, average student, maybe black clothes and a safety pin in his nose.

nah just kiddin...............32..........investment broker suit and tie. Good student better career investor.

[T.L.]

"Being physically out of your body hasn't been proven in OBE."

When Im projecting its the exact opposite as physical, most refer to it as the non-physical for that reason.


"You allready have a map of the world in your brain"

Assuming that one has seen all of the world. I have purposely while projecting intended to go to some places I have never seen. Paid close attention to details, ended it searched for pictures of that area and personally verified what I had seen. Having never seen that part of the world it should of been impossible for me to bring back the details I did if this was just a dream.

  Personally I dont think it will be possible to 100 percent prove obe's in a scientific manner. Other than verifying numbers, geographical data, and the like while projecting. Proving the non-physical with physical instruments just seems to be next to impossible. If you dont want to try to experiment yourself and wait for science to either prove or disprove before you are even interested, you will most assuredly die physically before that happens.

[catmeow]

Just a  few points:

1. Stating the Obvious

I don't understand why this experiment is such a big deal.  All it shows is that, if an individual's "point of perception" is moved a few feet behind his physical body (by use of a VR headset) then he still associates the physical body he sees in front of him with "himself" and feels as if he is actually "outside" it. 

Now maybe I'm dumb or something but this seems pretty obvious to me.  It doesn't prove anything at all. Next we'll have scientists discovering that if you pay someone a lot of compliments they feel "better".  Oh sorry that research has already been done.  Another case of stating the obvious.

2. Bad Reporting

The problem is that commentators are VERY FAST to misinterpret results and (usually) write off OBE's following "scientific" experiments.  A chance remark by the experimenter that "this might lead to an understanding of OBEs" is usually completely misrepresented, to mean "we have shown that it's all in the mind".  The BBC have done this with the following headline:

Out-of-body experience recreated
Near-death events have triggered out-of-body experiences
Experts have found a way to trigger an out-of-body experience in volunteers.
The experiments, described in the Science journal, offer a scientific explanation for a phenomenon experienced by one in 10 people.

3.  Scientists are Impartial

To say that scientists are completely independent arbiters of the truth is nonsense.  It's like saying that parents are completely impartial to their kids' performance at sports day.  All they want is to find out who the best kid is!  Yeh, right.  All scientists have their own particular axe to grind and try really hard to prove it.  Scientists with competing theories engage in competition until one of them finally reaches a tipping point in terms of evidence which sways the rest of the scientific community, to his point of view.

4. Science And Proof

Science is good.  I know, I'm a scientist myself.  It offers a concensus opinion on the nature of things based on evidence and repeatability.  But nothing has ever been 100% proven in science.  The two best, and most respected  theories ever devised are the theories of quantum mechanics and relativity.  But neither of these is considered 100% "proven".

5.Bigotry

And finally, words fail me at how uneducated and ignorant (meaning not knowing the facts) the following is:

Put it like this: Science is truth / reality.
Paranormal and any other phenomena not proven = 100% chance it doesn't exist, because it was made up by man in the past to form a philosophy on the "truth", obviously we know the truth now so there's no use into believing in any kind of mumbo-jumbo.

As I said science is not truth, it's a framework for establishing the nature of things, but nothing in science has ever been 100% proven. And if something hasn't yet been proven that doesn't mean there is, de-facto, a 100% chance that it doesn't exist.  So before Rutherford discovered the proton there was a 100% chance it didn't exist?  Utter nonsense.

[Sharpe]

Assuming that one has seen all of the world. I have purposely while projecting intended to go to some places I have never seen. Paid close attention to details, ended it searched for pictures of that area and personally verified what I had seen. Having never seen that part of the world it should of been impossible for me to bring back the details I did if this was just a dream.

Dude, the brain fills the gap, it's good in doing that.
And I didnt actually mean physically going out of your body, you know what I mean, you don't actually go out of your body, you don't go outside of anything. You stay in your limits (your brain).

And mustardseed, you're not even close.
But if you should know, I'm not the stereotypical human being like you wanted to put me in a generalised area as a non-believer, so you can ignore me as a human being by just putting me in a box.
Now can you please stop stereotyping me and actually listen to what I have to say?

[Sharpe]

As I said science is not truth, it's a framework for establishing the nature of things, but nothing in science has ever been 100% proven. And if something hasn't yet been proven that doesn't mean there is, de-facto, a 100% chance that it doesn't exist.  So before Rutherford discovered the proton there was a 100% chance it didn't exist?  Utter nonsense.

Ok.

[T.L.]

    According to a few scientists, when asked what we really know. The reply was very little. We are not even sure and has yet to be proven that our consciousness actually resides in the brain in the literal sense. "Dude, the brain fills the gap"  This doesnt account for describing a geographical area and its buildings with 95 percent accuracy, when one hasnt even seen the area in person or in images. Its like if a projector was asked to go to a certain area and find a list of generated numbers on a computer monitor. Then he correctly gives the numbers. Then having someone such as yourself say "Dude, the brain fills the gap, it's good in doing that" Also what catmeow pointed out in you saying that if something isnt proven then theres hundred percent chance it doesnt exist. Your logic in this case is nonsense. This thread seems it ran its course, and now we are back where we started.

[Sharpe]

The brain DOES fill the gap, and if you ACTUALLY think you go out of your body, go do something usefull with it, punk...

[Sharpe]

And btw we know pretty darn much about our existence, so much that you need a few lifetimes to learn them. So don't bring me that ****.

[Mustardseed]

Dear Sharpe
Please excuse my attempt at sarcasm. All I meant to say is that your statements appear to be so extreme as to suggest that you indeed are very young.

Your dogged worship of science is in every way as Fundamentalist as a Christian minister, Islamic Faithful or whatever, and it is to those of us who have had the dubious pleasure of living a bit longer, quite inordinate.

I will refrain from further comments. It is quite futile, ..............."dead men do not bleed", trust me.

Regards Mustardseed

[Sharpe]

I'm sorry, but I'm not trying to be a dogmatist here, now can you please stop talking about me personally, and also stop judging be because you don't know me.
Now actually look what I have to say.

[iNNERvOYAGER]

By deliberately scrambling a person's visual and tactile senses, it is now possible to give them an "out-of-body" experience.

Two procedures – which are the first to imitate an out-of-body experience artificially – use cameras to fool people into thinking they are standing or sitting somewhere else in a room. They provide the strongest proof yet that people only imagine floating out of their bodies during surgery or near-death experiences.

"The brain can trick itself, and when it is trying to interpret sensory information, the image it produces doesn't have to be a real representation," says Henrik Ehrsson, of the Institute of Neurology, University College London, UK, who designed the first experiment.

To start from the beginning, my question is, what is the original researcher's hypothesis?

The introduction to the article is mixed with reporting of the research and the interjection of opinion by the journalist, Andy Coghlan.
"Two procedures – which are the first to imitate an out-of-body experience artificially – use cameras to fool people into thinking they are standing or sitting somewhere else in a room. They provide the strongest proof yet that people only imagine floating out of their bodies during surgery or near-death experiences." (This is Andy Coghlan talking, NOT the scientists?)

A common problem with journalists is that they very seldom know much about what they're reporting on. (lets beat up on journalists now     )

[Sharpe]

Exactly, I seriously don't see the point of the expiriment anyways

[Mustardseed]

I'm sorry, but I'm not trying to be a dogmatist here, now can you please stop talking about me personally, and also stop judging be because you don't know me.
Now actually look what I have to say.

OK fair enough. I will stick to the topic. Apologies to you again.

My view is stated clearly however, and I find that it is mindblowing that you can disregard it, to the degree you do. To make claims like you do, that:

Science is truth / reality.
Paranormal and any other phenomena not proven = 100% chance it doesn't exist, because it was made up by man in the past to form a philosophy on the "truth", obviously we know the truth now so there's no use into believing in any kind of mumbo-jumbo.

Such a claim is ludicrous and I am trying to explore why you would make such a statement. Even scientists would disagree with you, so what do you base this silly comment on? ......Do tell!

If you were of age, and still had such a view, it would be very surprising to me. Thus I conclude that your statements are based on inexperience=youth, and serves no real purpose in the discussion of said matter.

Do feel free to reply and make your observations, regarding the subject in the thread, but if you want to be taken serious, you have to make claims supportable by fact. If you don't it is YOU my friend who is sprouting off Mumbo Jumbo

This is the Definition of Mumbo Jumbo:

Mumbo Jumbo, or mumbojumbo is an English phrase or expression that denotes a confusing or meaningless subject. It is often used as humorous expression of criticism of middle-management and civil service non-speak, and of belief in something considered non-existent by the speaker

[Sharpe]

I thought I said "ok" to the fact that I was wrong about that 100% thing.
But anyways, you're doing a great job of finding my weaknesses in this discussion and keep attacking that 1 point I made because I got a bit PO'd for the fact that most people here tried to sound intelligent or fully aware of the truth, whilest in fact most of the idea's and theories are not logical, but they are humanly hypothesized answers for the truth/reality.
And I thought I allready explained why OBE is not what it seems.

"an OBE is merely a dream where you position yourself as if you're outside your body.
You allready have a map of the world in your brain so if you're in a dream you can float around in your preconscious where you are aware of what reality looks like in your memory, because every single detail is allready stored in your subconscious."

Now, someone expiriencing OBE would get the IDEA that you're actually out of your body and that your soul is flying in the air or whatever.

Imagine egyptians, they didn't knew they were on a planet that rotates around the sun, so they did the obvious and most logical thing they could do.
They looked into the sky and saw the stars, sun , moon, so they started hypothesizing with the human brain which was evolved to the point more or less like the one we have now.
So let's just say they had the same brains, even we would make the same conclusions, they thought that the stars/sun/moon were living beings, gods.
And they are immortal, because they don't die, they ressurect after going down.
But now we know, because we went outside earth and we landed on the moon.

This is just like OBE, it SEEMS that you're going out of your body, but there are other, more logical answers. And that's what science wants to achieve, clarity vs magic/fantasy.
I can't believe some people actually believe this, that's why i got PO'd the first time I read some of the communities posts.
Believing in these stuff is a simple model for an unintelligent human being to find a way to achieve a clarity of the universe, but it only messes up your map of reality, because it isn't true.
But people that want clarity are rare, so I don't think most people believe in OBE for just that.
Most of you probably didn't achieve a high status in our societies status-hiërarchy.
And are trying to find a way to still achieve a status because human's psychologicly want to have a higher status. This is noticable by being happy when your status is high (= you are loved by many).
But mostly, status is build on what the society expects from you.
So if you fail in that, you must find a different society, and a different hierarchy, and a different idea of status.
Getting a high status in the new-age community isn't that hard, because you don't physically need to do anything, which removes a lot of pressure.
Anyways, for the people that actually want clarity, they are doomed here.

And mustardseed, again, "If you were of age".
You don't even know how old I am.
I don't judge you about your age or whatever stereotype you are.
Using someones gender/age/physical appearance, is just a sad way in winning an arguement and you know it (or maybe you don't, I hope you're conscious of your actions now). 

[Mustardseed]

Believing in these stuff is a simple model for an unintelligent human being to find a way to achieve a clarity of the universe, but it only messes up your map of reality, because it isn't true.
But people that want clarity are rare, so I don't think most people believe in OBE for just that.
Most of you probably didn't achieve a high status in our societies status-hiërarchy.
And are trying to find a way to still achieve a status because human's psychologicly want to have a higher status. This is noticable by being happy when your status is high (= you are loved by many).
But mostly, status is build on what the society expects from you.
So if you fail in that, you must find a different society, and a different hierarchy, and a different idea of status.
Getting a high status in the new-age community isn't that hard, because you don't physically need to do anything, which removes a lot of pressure.
Anyways, for the people that actually want clarity, they are doomed here.

You know what my friend, why don't we just agree to disagree. Obviously you are completely unaware of what is going on around you  possibly due to a lack of education, life experience or too large an ego.

You have absolutely no idea of what is happening in the world around you, but appear to still be in the formative years. It takes a young man, inexperienced and proud to discuss and argue like you do. You are continually spouting off theories and unsupported opinions disguised as facts, saying that things are "simply not true". In another thread you stated

I'm just gonna say politely, that I don't believe it and you shouldn't just say things like: "THIS IS THE TRUTH", be a little more: "My opinion is:/I think:", just because you believe solidly in something doesn't mean it's true, you are just giving an opinion, it can never be proved, understand?

Would it be too much to ask you to follow your own advice?

You also complain about me judging you unfairly, because I call you a young man, and in the same post where you state so grandly that you, and I quote:

.

...don't judge you about your age or whatever stereotype you are.

In the same post you turn around and call the entire board and the posters here "low achievers" ."unintelligent"......... How does that strike you, as maybe ............hypocritical? Just asking!!

Lets just end it here. You obviously do not have a clue what you are talking about, you simply want to discuss these subjects. If you wanted to discuss them respectfully and with a open mind to at least hear folks out and debate respectfully, it would be fine, but you do not seem to want that but rather seem to draw some sort of pleasure from tearing down and criticising, a very negative approach, and unproductive.........I should know!!! In any case as for myself.......I do not have the patience or time to politely spend 10-20 years trying to teach you.

Regards Mustardseed

[Sharpe]

I haven't heard you say anything logical since yesterday, all you do is say what I say is wrong and you try finding mean little tricks to win this discussion.

You this, you that.
Drop it, if you have any knowledge to support your beliefs of OBE, say them or be quiet, because you obviously don't know anything.
And I think I proved my point of being more educated than you, though I loathe talking about what status someone has achieved in "life" in general.

And I see you have been looking at my posts from a year back, how low the ship has sunk to try to float again.  . - (This is exactly what YOU are doing)

I rest my case *shuts suitcase*

[Stillwater]

I think you both make logial points in different posts, but I also think this discussion has degenerated, lol.
You both apparently have good intentions, and I don't like silencing people, so do as suits you, lol, but I think this line of exchanges is getting  ugly

(Ducks back into trench with helmet)

[bjb1234]

End of the day the media has had done very bad coverage on this new research.  Very misleading titles etc...

If you go watch the actual experiment on youtube you will see it hasnt got too much to do with OBEs (not atleast from what i saw).

Just looks like mental suggestion, tricking the mind using goggles.

Sharpe you was wrong about a few things, for example science isnt all truth/reality, and anything thats not science is false.

Like i said earlier, science has many theories accepted as truth which have been updated/changed years later when they got evidence they was wrong.

I would guess 50 years time, most of the accepted theories and "truths" of today wil be laughed at by the scientific community.

I also believe the world would have evolved alot by then, with new discoveries.  Or disasters forcing us to work together.

All we need for mayor world peace is to get USA/EUROPE/RUSSIA/CHINA/INDIA to work together, but now there forgetting the lessons of ww1 and ww2 and are going to end up fighting and maybe destroying our planet out of oil and energy.

Bad times

[T.L.]

"an OBE is merely a dream where you position yourself as if you're outside your body.
You allready have a map of the world in your brain so if you're in a dream you can float around in your preconscious where you are aware of what reality looks like in your memory, because every single detail is allready stored in your subconscious."

  This theory you have made seems to be a mixture of your own ideas and the experiment this thread started out talking about. The problem with this theory other than most others experiences being to the contrary is that if you were right in this theory the obe experience would be severely guided by ones expectations. If one can remain impartial while in an obe and then check up on a friend or someone you know, what you might expect them to be doing and what they are actually doing are two entirely different things.
    My experiences in projections were almost always not guided by my expectations what so ever. In relation to geographical information etc.. There have been times when in a projection I run into a part of my town I have never seen, and I think to myself this cant be real. Only to realize that the place I experienced is real, I just never happened upon the place because I never drive on that road. I think there are a ton of reasons why you have the opinions you do, but I dont see any reason to express them here because I know already what you would say. You would just state the exact opposite like anyone else to try to prove that your opinion is not just based on a theory you came up with, with no first hand experiences at all. I think we all realize this thread has run its course. We all agree to disagree =-)

[Sharpe]

I ain't gonna give you the last word to make you feel better, psht.
If you actually think you go out of your body, why don't you take randi's 1 million dollar test?

[Stookie]

All of this is theoretical. The best way is for each individual to search within themselves. The answers found there are much more conclusive (albeit subjectively). Then, instead of telling someone else what you found and expecting them to adopt that belief system, you give them a way of finding those answers themselves, as you have. They may still find different answers, but they've exercised there own will and thinking. Pointing people in the right direction is much more productive than telling them where their flaws are. I think that's what the Astral Pulse is about - sharing ideas, tips, & tools. Not pushing beliefs.

It seems the only way a scientist in a lab could produce results which everyone could believe is hard conclusive physical evidence, like a good video that can be reproduced over and over in different circumstances. But how in the world do you get a physical object from something non-physical?

Maybe the only way to prove something non-physical to people is to help them have their own non-physical experience.

[T.L.]

    I would love to. I dont think though they have the patience to monitor me night after night while attempting to project. Some days I can project and some I cant. Its not very controllable in that manner. Also its not as simple as taking the challenge, you first have to sign up, fill out their paper work. Send it in. Then wait. Some get answered some don't. Then if you do get an answer and they want to put you to a prelim. test you have to pay for the investigators flight, stay etc.. That would mean hundreds just to get the guy to test you, then if it takes 4 days to a week to get project you will be paying for his stay where-ever he decides to stay. When the person succeeds it gets worse. They have to wait to go to do the initial test and needs to get a hundred percent success. If there is even one wrong answer given or 1 percent failure rate they throw out all of the successes. I know this because Ive personally spoken with a few claiments stating that they were ripped off by that challenge and even randi himself. He has a personal axe to grind when it comes to anything paranormal, he doesnt believe and some will say he doesnt want it to exist. Any proof shown to the contrary is just thrown out.
  Dont get me wrong the sword is a double edged one. The same can be said about people who believe in the paranormal. Any evidence given to them that what they experienced was not paranormal they will just throw out in the belief that they are right no matter what. For example someone swears that a "ghost" is opening a door in their house but its just a draft caused by some wind tunneling effect when certain doors/windows are opened and closed. Then when shown the evidence they still disagree with the findings. I have no intentions of coming into contact with people of that kind of mindset, because right or wrong you are the loser in that kind of situation. You can find numerous discussions about randi's "challenge" on multiple forums for legit complaints about it.
  That's neither here nor there though. Whether or not you believe that I do really project myself does not change the fact that I can and do. I would be happy though if you did experience it because its a very freeing thing to experience. There are physicists that say without the consciousness what we perceive the physical world to be wouldnt exist. So in a way the physical world we are living in is just an illusion created by our consciousness, not the other way around. There are other physicists that believe the old occult principle of like attracts like. They explain it in the way that everything exists on a vibration level of some sort. (Which everything does) The difference between something being solid, or not, visible or not visible is the vibration level that said thing is at. Like visible laser light and not visible laser like (infared). There are frequencies that remain undiscovered. Never the less anything that is not close to our vibration we can not experience. This is how those physicists would explain the "law of attraction" That sort of explains why people who always think they are sick do get more ill than the average person, and those who say they never get sick, do rarely get sick. Those who say if I didnt have bad luck I would have no luck at all, always have bad things happen to them. So who are we to say that these physicists are wrong. Life is pretty ambiguous and sometimes there are answers that are both right and wrong. Henry Ford said "Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are right"

[Sharpe]

Now wowowow, first of all the law of attraction doesn't exist, because it's just a marketing scheme.
I mean isn't it obvious?

But, forget about that I just want to talk about the randi challenge, you can't just ignore the challenge.
It's still 1 million dollars, if you are so sure of yourself that you can actually do it, who cares about whatever you need to pay for...
IF you can do it, you will get paid, if you can't, then you will lose a bit of money...
But it's obvious you're sure enough, so why not take the shot, you have nothing to lose if you win.
1 million dollars is take-20-years-off-money.