New Scientist's paper about OBE

[Stillwater]

I think everyone needs to stop bickering, lol.


We have 5 pages of banter not even related to the topic, and it shows no signs of stopping.


This thread has formed its own subcultures! That is nothing short of a sociological marvel!


There are now two camps organized around competing belief systems, and each poster seems to be strongly identifying themself with one of them, and defending against its offences!

We need to stop arguements against individual people; if this discussion is to generate anything useful, we must sepparate arguements and ideas from the people who made them, and analyze them on their own merits;furthermore, before anyone goes supporting their belief system, it is courteous to address the objections of the other side, otherwise the converstation will continue to circle as it has done for days.

[Sharpe]

Exactly.

[Hisoka]

My sentiments exactly, Stillwater. Sense at last.

[Mustardseed]

Dear Stillwater
I expect that you have been following the thread. I think that what has happened, is that Sharpe has continued successfully hijacking the entire process, by stating a barrage of unsupported theories, masked as fact. He continues to state his points, though they have been addressed, in a very hostile way. This is called flaming. Most serious folks have grown weary of his antics, and are bound to leave this thread because of his attitude.

He naturally sees himself ,as a serious contender for the TRUTH, (as he sees it) and will follow people, that he does not appear to like, around in other threads, only to cause more contention with his abrasive comments, untill be is banned. This should not take long, at the rate he is going.

If he was interested in a serious conversation, or debate he would have engaged in one. Flamers are a very real thing in the internet community ,and the AP has had its share of them. They eventually leave, after they have been exposed for what they are.

Most people are here to discuss the experiences they have had, or aspire to have, and they see him for what he is, if not immediately then at least very soon after they have had a brush up against him.

Regards Mustardseed

[Stillwater]

Hi Mustardseed,

I understand where you are coming from, and have followed the thread from the beggining, and have seen the behavior you are describing; I also believe that if a person truly is disruptive, and repeats the same behavior, it is best to see it for what it is and pay it no attention, as doing so is an invitation for more of the same.

I do stand by what I said, in that it is best for the discussion if the focus is not on the individuals themselves involved, but rather what they have to say.

If what they say is of merit, then we respond accordingly; if it isn't, we courteously offer our counter-reasoning; if what they say is inane, or they repeat the same statements without reading what others have to say, they are probably not contributing and it is best to ignore them, without making reference.

When forum members begin posting comments about the character of other members, it is clear that control has been broken, no?

Please do not feel I am talking down to you, as I understand your position; I am merely stating my observation that both "sides" are acting rudely, and some reflection upon what has developed into a complicated social combat might be in order.

P.S. :

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/diplomat.htm

This one looks like a role I seem to fill too often, lol; speaking vaguely, as you can see it suits me, I have seen examples of each of these "net personalities", and the majority of them do seem to have a close representative on this forum   

[Sharpe]

Hey I didn't start calling people names I just wanted to discuss why my beliefs are better.
And I wasn't hijacking anything, you did a good job of making it seem that way.
If you look back, all my beliefs are supported, and I never see anyone here give a valid source except wikipedia.
Which is absolutely ridiculous, wikipedia isn't a real encyclopedia if you didn't knew that.
Everything I said about the brain can be found here: www.brainmind.com.
You could've researched that yourself.
Now, you have no option to accuse me of unsupported theories.
So drop it.

I thought I was gonna find resonable people on these forums that I can actually discuss these topics with.
But after the attack from catmeow, anyone would make a counter-attack.
The childish behaviour going on here is a great dissapointment.

And the stereotyping is even worse  .
I started out this topic with good intentions but when I said my beliefs, I got attacked saying I was too young or something. lmao

And then I was called young of age, after that I was called troll, then it followed up to acne or whatever.
I never accused anyone of being anything lol.

I merely wanted to point out that most of your beliefs can be explained by how good the brain is programmed.
OBE- no proof whatsoever.
I even asked one guy to take the Randi challenge, no, according to him the challenge was a hoax.
And after that *no response*.
Well then, do something with it, why not prove to everyone by putting a card on a high position in your house without looking at it and then just AP and look at the card. If the card is right while AP'ing you are right it exists. (I read this experiment somewhere)
This seems like a good experiment.

So untill you can prove it, everything you say is unsupported and unsourced bogus.
See, I nailed it without stereotyping anyone, because I don't need to.

[Mez]

wow this topic has gone on a tangent

it seems the maps of either side of the argument feel threatened.

that card experiement is one I will DEFINATELY be trying out when I become more advanced at AP.

I understand the brain is incredibly powerful and could theoretically create these scenarios we believe to be external from the mind. I also understand that there IS more to existence than the physical world and science cannot prove or disprove that because science cannot measure it therefore science disbelieves it because science CANNOT believe it.

thus is our existential quandry.

One might believe the experiences of an astral projector are subjective due to the nature of the astral realm... leaving no room for solid "proof" on account of ones experience but certainly a very real experience to the individual. The correlations of these experiences with other projectors are vast but with no way for it to be measured scientifically this still doesnt amount to "proof" although it certainly validates the experiences for the individuals. Arguing for the scientific side saying that "due to the information a prospective projector has recieved about what the experience is supposed to contain the subconcious creates it accordingly" does not explain isolated cases. The power of the subconcious mind is more than enough to create a scenario of astral projection but has science pinpointed the how and why? How specifically does using exit techniques for astral projection produce the same symptoms (and subjective experiences) in over 90% of projectors (my own rough estimate)... the power of suggestion alone is an unacceptable argument due to isolated cases having the same symptoms and experiences. This is a huge question that science is yet to answer and this factor MUST be taken into account when dealing with this issue no matter which side of the argument you are on. To disregard the subjective experiences of many, many people including isolated cases that have vast positive correlations because science hasnt found a way to measure with a physical instrument taht which is non-physical (a seemingly impossible task) seems a bit closed minded. I would love to know the science behind it but maybe there isnt any per se.

Going deeper into the experience side of things in regards to the experiment with the card...
if one could complete the experiment with 100% accuracy this would make the experience objective.
Thus giving "proof" to the existence of Astral Projection as being real and external from the mind.
Im positive people have done numerous validations like this one but as soon as I become more advanced at AP (be it in my mind or not) I will certainly be undergoing this experiment as I would like to verify it for myself.

I Believe the odds are stacked firmly against science in a couple of ways.
Sharpe I checked out www.brainmind.com and I must say its a very extensive resource! thanks for the link I would also like to add that if you want to try and understand this or ascertain its validity...

Give it a go for yourself. You wont be dissapointed.

[catmeow]

Sharpe you joined this thread with a complete nonsense statement

Put it like this: Science is truth / reality.
Paranormal and any other phenomena not proven = 100% chance it doesn't exist, because it was made up by man in the past to form a philosophy on the "truth", obviously we know the truth now so there's no use into believing in any kind of mumbo-jumbo.

After that you stereotyped us with:

Believing in these stuff is a simple model for an unintelligent human being to find a way to achieve a clarity of the universe

Most of you probably didn't achieve a high status in our societies status-hiërarchy.
And are trying to find a way to still achieve a status because human's psychologicly want to have a higher status

Then you announced that you were more educated than us:

And I think I proved my point of being more educated than you

And at every juncture, you refuse to answer your questioners.  Instead of answering a  question you simply dismiss it as if it is beneath you, in a very patronising and hostile fashion, effectively ignoring it:

The brain DOES fill the gap, and if you ACTUALLY think you go out of your body, go do something usefull with it, punk...

Your arguments are based on unsafe assumptions. They also don't make any sense. Your conclusions are just your own personal opinions masquerading as "logic":

You could take as example: how high is your status amongst your equals: 00001 = lowest, 11111 is highest for example.
And the same trick with the serotonin, this probably makes more sense.
But maybe if you make it precise, the serotonin is 01111 with people that are the alpha males in most groups.
But if you are a king or you rule the world or whatever, you are the ultra alpha male (I made that up xD), so this would give you the highest possible serotonin release = 11111.
Because if we know there's someone better than us, we can't accept all serotonin, however if we know we're the king of kings, we give ourselves permission to receive the whole thing (serotonin).

You have no time for anyone's opinion other than your own.  As Mustardseed put it this is called "flaming". Eventually people become tired of this behaviour and begin to respond in a negative fashion.  What do you expect? 

If You walked into a bar in Cricklewood (an Irish community) and shouted "All Irish are thick", and "I'm more educated than you" etc, you'd get a very sobering response, probably ending in hospitalisation. This is effectively what you did here.  So you got a few personal comments?  Small potatos compared with what would happen to you in the real world.

You need to grow up, learn some social skills and get out into the real world on a Saturday night instead of slumping over a keyboard.

PS Mez - thanks for an intelligent post and re-directing this thread back on track.

[Sharpe]

Hey I just read your last posts, and the latest 12 are all attacking me.
Thank you for giving me such attention.
I do not know what I did to PO you, but I can assure you that everything I say, except this post:

"Put it like this: Science is truth / reality.
Paranormal and any other phenomena not proven = 100% chance it doesn't exist, because it was made up by man in the past to form a philosophy on the "truth", obviously we know the truth now so there's no use into believing in any kind of mumbo-jumbo."

(Which you have mentioned, repeatedly)
Is pretty much very close to the truth.

Now I'm not going to say anything about your ESP experiences but let's keep this easy here.
I have nothing to prove, you however, have no business telling me I'm wrong unless you can prove it.
Prove it, and stop blabbering about me personally because you don't know me.
Can't you see your own human mistakes here?
You try to find anything personally about me, then you attack me with it.
Primitive discussion tactics.
Lawyers use it every day, but that isn't related to this topic is it?
And lol, you say I started flaming right?
Didn't you notice your first attack calling ME uneducated?
Nailed. -This conversation is over-

And Mez, I would love to hear your results about that test, you know my beliefs, and if you pull that test off, I would need to recalculate my whole map of reality. Which I think is fun, because althought I might say that most of what I believe is reality like I said on that post that catmeow mentioned, repeatedly.
It would be awesome if there is an afterlife. Not that I see the point of it...

[Selski]

And Mez, I would love to hear your results about that test, you know my beliefs, and if you pull that test off, I would need to recalculate my whole map of reality.

Hi Sharpe

The playing card experiment was successfully 'pulled off' by me a few years ago.  Here is the relevant post:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_the_astral_faq/the_playing_card_experiment-t18497.0.html

The trouble with this is that you don't know me from Adam and there would always be doubt in your mind as to whether I cheated or made it all up.  In addition, you might also say that to prove it scientifically, it would need to be done numerous times.  Even then, if I told you that I'd successfully done it 17 times (for instance), you still are left with that doubt as to my integrity.

So in a nutshell, the best way to obtain proof is to experience it directly yourself.  And to do this, you need to suspend any belief/disbelief you have about said subject.   

Sarah

P.S.  Oh and just because I have had many OBEs, it doesn't necessarily follow that there is an afterlife - in my opinion.

[Sharpe]

Well I wouldn't call it succesfully pulled off, but why didn't you check the card in your pocket while AP'ing?
And you had 2 suits correct right? That means you had a chance of 4 to 1, 4 to 1, meaning 16 to 1 chance right? So how did you get 500 to 1?

Anyways about the afterlife thing, If everyone actually did have free-will and every human being was a free spirit, it would mean that there should be an afterlife because it's logical that the body would only be a tool.

I may try AP just to try out some experiments, but my beliefs more or less stay the same.
Thanks for your post though, I knew I read that experiment somewhere but I couldn't find it.

[Stillwater]

I may try AP just to try out some experiments, but my beliefs more or less stay the same.
Thanks for your post.

There! The human condition

I am glad you can at least entertain possibilities- that is what this site is all about.

[Selski]

Hi Sharpe

The trouble with OBEs is there is much speculation as to whether they occur in the physical realm or not. 

Most folks who have the "classic" OBE (where they find themselves in their own bedroom) find that the room is 'not quite right' in that a door is in the wrong place or an extra window is on one wall. 

This makes sense with the playing card experiment.  My belief (and understand it is a belief, not a known fact) is that when we project into the etheric world, it is not physical in the least, but because we perceive it to be, we assume certain things and can literally "create" a physical world overlay on top of another world, if that makes sense.

For instance, what I saw was the Jack of Spades in the astral.  But because of certain (dis)beliefs that this experiment was even possible, I subconsciously made it harder for myself by putting a blue 'A' in the way, thereby potentially making me question/abort the whole experience.

The fact that I stuck with it and checked it out was proof to me.  I'm totally sure myself of my own experience - I know I cannot share it fully with you or anyone else, for you would have to experience it yourself to know what I mean.

Therefore, I'm happy with what I've experienced.  Whether it's "real" or not is beside the point, in my opinion.  We could argue for the rest of eternity whether something is "real", "factual" or "truth".  It doesn't matter, from my point of view.  I've come to the conclusion that if you choose beliefs that make you happy, that makes for a smiley life. 

Curious about something you said...

If everyone actually did have free-will and every human being was a free spirit, it would mean that there should be an afterlife because it's logical that the body would only be a tool

What do you mean by 'free-will', 'free spirit' and 'logical that the body would only be a tool'?

As an aside (and a lovely experiment if you've never done it) - take yourself outside of being human and imagine yourself as an alien looking down on planet earth.  Imagine what humans think.  Then imagine what robins think.  Then worms.  Then moles.  And so on.  If you can do this (while meditating is even better), it can give you huge insights to our world, especially from a non-human source.

Sarah

[Selski]

Well I wouldn't call it succesfully pulled off, but why didn't you check the card in your pocket while AP'ing?
And you had 2 suits correct right? That means you had a chance of 4 to 1, 4 to 1, meaning 16 to 1 chance right? So how did you get 500 to 1?

Just to clarify, you are talking about TVOS's experience, not mine.  Mine was the post above, the Jack of Spades post, the One Off. 

Sarah

[Sharpe]

Oh excuse me about that lol.
I really get stuck on the part where you say that if it isn't real, this "etheric" plane you are talking about.
Because the way TVOS described it sounds awfully close to a lucid dream.

And if you can change or bend the reality in that realm it would be difficult if there were more people inside that realm.
Wouldn't there be a conflict on how everything should look like inside that world?

"What do you mean by 'free-will', 'free spirit' and 'logical that the body would only be a tool'?"
Well, if everyone had a spirit, this would break down the materialistic thought about the brain.
And these spirits would have free will, free to think whatever they wanted, which we humans don't have (that's why I doubt, OBE's).
And because the spirit is the main source of where the information and consciousness is stored, this would make the body including the brain a tool.
And if the body dies, the spirit would move on to the world which you speak of.
Unless the spirit can also die, if that's the case, all of the above doesn't matter.

By the way: "I've come to the conclusion that if you choose beliefs that make you happy, that makes for a smiley life."

I love what you said here, but I always say to myself that there are better things I can do than just being happy for the rest of my life.

[Selski]

I like your response, and I'm the type to go away and think about it for a while.  I'm quite a simple-minded being, and non-technical or scientific, so forgive me if my response is a tad 'basic'.

My first impression is that you assume quite a bit - such as 1 + 1 = 2.  There's nothing wrong with that, but it's quite a 'black and white' view of the world, which won't help if you want to pratice AP.

You also used the word 'better' more than once in your posts.  I'm curious to know what is 'better' than living a happy life.  I'm not being argumentative - just curious to know what you term 'better'.

Sarah

PS  Please understand I'm not looking for a fight, but trying to understand your way of thinking.  If I can't understand, then at least to accept it as your way of thinking.

[Sharpe]

Haha, well I just want to know the truth, black and white is how I like to see things because it gives control.
But it immensely jeopardizes happiness.
Because in some way I think, we aren't supposed to know the truth.
And to know the truth we need to ignore any human feelings.
Just like what you said about the alien observation, looking at things from a different point of view changes everything.

My strongest belief is that humans are fully programmed organisms, that do what they are programmed to do.
I do know that this is probably the case but I don't fully "get" it, just like mathematics.
For instance, I got angry at some people in this topic but I also know that I shouldn't be angry because it's just a program in my brain.
That's why I don't fully *get* it.

And unless I can view humans as programmed entities, I never will.

How about you, what are your beliefs?

[Mez]

Haha, well I just want to know the truth, black and white is how I like to see things because it gives control.
But it immensely jeopardizes happiness.

You're spot on with that. The whole subject of brain maps and programs fits in very well with what you've just said and Im forever making that exact observation of my gf's dad. If she does something that isnt in accordance with his map (of how he thinks she should act) his immediate response is reacting to control, the sponsoring thought of the desire (or need) to control is fear. Fear = unhappiness.

This is a model which applies to humanity pretty much the world over with one exception... (maybe theres more?? idk bout that though)

that exception being yoga. Im not talking about the form of excersice because that is only one form of yoga known as hatha yoga and its basically a pepatory stage for Raja yoga. Excluding Hatha yoga there are 4 main forms of yoga these are Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga and Raja Yoga.

Im about to explain my main point which is explained very clearly in the Bhagavad Gita. (these qoutes are from *coughs* wikipedia but I am only citing them from there for convenience. If you want to look into this further I suggest you go here http://www.krishna.com/node/915 where you can find the Bhagavad Gita as an audio book. Bear in mind its 5000 years old and was spoken supposedly from Krishna who was an incarnation of god. These are the people who gave us the term "Chakra" so to me their words hold some serious weight.)

Karma Yoga:

"Karma yoga focuses on the adherence to duty (dharma) while remaining detached from the reward"

Jnana Yoga:

"In the Bhagavad Gita (13.3) Krishna says that jnana consists of properly understanding kshetra (the field of activity--that is, the body) and kshetra-jna (the knower of the body--that is, the soul). Later in the Gita (13.35) Krishna emphasizes that a transcendentalist must understand the difference between these two

Jnana yoga teaches that there are four means to salvation (transcendance):

Viveka - Discrimination: The ability to differentiate between what is real/eternal (Brahman) and what is unreal/temporal (everything else in the universe.)
Vairagya - Dispassion: After practice one should be able to "detach" her/himself from everything that is "temporary."
Shad-sampat - The 6 Virtues: Tranquility (control of the mind), Dama (control of the senses), Uparati (renunciation of activities that are not duties), Titiksha (endurance), Shraddha (faith), Samadhana (perfect concentration).
Mumukshutva - Intense longing for liberation from temporal limitations."

Bhakti Yoga:

"Bhakti yoga is a term within Hinduism which denotes the spiritual practice of fostering loving devotion to God, called bhakti"

Raja Yoga:

"Raja yoga is concerned principally with the cultivation of the mind using meditation (dhyana) to further one's acquaintance with reality and finally achieve liberation.

It is also sometimes referred to as ashtanga (eight-limbed) yoga because there are eight aspects to the path to which one must attend

The eight limbs of Ashtanga Yoga are:

Yama - Code of conduct - self-restraint
Niyama - religious observances - commitments to practice, such as study and devotion
Āsana - integration of mind and body through physical activity
Pranayama - regulation of breath leading to integration of mind and body
Pratyahara - abstraction of the senses, withdrawal of the senses of perception from their objects
Dharana - concentration, one-pointedness of mind
Dhyana - meditation (quiet activity that leads to samadhi)
Samadhi - the quiet state of blissful awareness, superconscious state "

Basically what it is all about is a perfectly balanced mind. Krishna makes a point that people who know the absolute truth of the universe (in his humble opinion) understand there is no need to be attached to anything for they understand that their bodies are temporary and so is the physical universe and so on and so forth... He says one who has a perfectly balanced mind feels no need to lament when something bad happens and no need to rejoice when something good happens.

In this model of human existance there is no room for fear. No fear = No unhappiness.

Before I knew anything about hinduism I kinda looked at it in a funny way being tottally ignorant.
Now that i've come to understand (as I may) and believe all that I do...
I have adopted this as my philosophy (only quite recently, my map is still adjusting) and it is my firm belief
I must say it has given me a startling amount of clarity in any given situation and I have definately experienced FARRR less unhappiness.

[Selski]

How about you, what are your beliefs?

Hi Sharpe

I believe in endless possibilities.  And in all the various shades of grey between black and white. 

Sarah

[Sharpe]

You're spot on with that. The whole subject of brain maps and programs fits in very well with what you've just said and Im forever making that exact observation of my gf's dad. If she does something that isnt in accordance with his map (of how he thinks she should act) his immediate response is reacting to control, the sponsoring thought of the desire (or need) to control is fear. Fear = unhappiness.

This is a model which applies to humanity pretty much the world over with one exception... (maybe theres more?? idk bout that though)

that exception being yoga. Im not talking about the form of excersice because that is only one form of yoga known as hatha yoga and its basically a pepatory stage for Raja yoga. Excluding Hatha yoga there are 4 main forms of yoga these are Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga and Raja Yoga.

Im about to explain my main point which is explained very clearly in the Bhagavad Gita. (these qoutes are from *coughs* wikipedia but I am only citing them from there for convenience. If you want to look into this further I suggest you go here http://www.krishna.com/node/915 where you can find the Bhagavad Gita as an audio book. Bear in mind its 5000 years old and was spoken supposedly from Krishna who was an incarnation of god. These are the people who gave us the term "Chakra" so to me their words hold some serious weight.)

Karma Yoga:

"Karma yoga focuses on the adherence to duty (dharma) while remaining detached from the reward"

Jnana Yoga:

"In the Bhagavad Gita (13.3) Krishna says that jnana consists of properly understanding kshetra (the field of activity--that is, the body) and kshetra-jna (the knower of the body--that is, the soul). Later in the Gita (13.35) Krishna emphasizes that a transcendentalist must understand the difference between these two

Jnana yoga teaches that there are four means to salvation (transcendance):

Viveka - Discrimination: The ability to differentiate between what is real/eternal (Brahman) and what is unreal/temporal (everything else in the universe.)
Vairagya - Dispassion: After practice one should be able to "detach" her/himself from everything that is "temporary."
Shad-sampat - The 6 Virtues: Tranquility (control of the mind), Dama (control of the senses), Uparati (renunciation of activities that are not duties), Titiksha (endurance), Shraddha (faith), Samadhana (perfect concentration).
Mumukshutva - Intense longing for liberation from temporal limitations."

Bhakti Yoga:

"Bhakti yoga is a term within Hinduism which denotes the spiritual practice of fostering loving devotion to God, called bhakti"

Raja Yoga:

"Raja yoga is concerned principally with the cultivation of the mind using meditation (dhyana) to further one's acquaintance with reality and finally achieve liberation.

It is also sometimes referred to as ashtanga (eight-limbed) yoga because there are eight aspects to the path to which one must attend

The eight limbs of Ashtanga Yoga are:

Yama - Code of conduct - self-restraint
Niyama - religious observances - commitments to practice, such as study and devotion
Āsana - integration of mind and body through physical activity
Pranayama - regulation of breath leading to integration of mind and body
Pratyahara - abstraction of the senses, withdrawal of the senses of perception from their objects
Dharana - concentration, one-pointedness of mind
Dhyana - meditation (quiet activity that leads to samadhi)
Samadhi - the quiet state of blissful awareness, superconscious state "

Basically what it is all about is a perfectly balanced mind. Krishna makes a point that people who know the absolute truth of the universe (in his humble opinion) understand there is no need to be attached to anything for they understand that their bodies are temporary and so is the physical universe and so on and so forth... He says one who has a perfectly balanced mind feels no need to lament when something bad happens and no need to rejoice when something good happens.

In this model of human existance there is no room for fear. No fear = No unhappiness.

Before I knew anything about hinduism I kinda looked at it in a funny way being tottally ignorant.
Now that i've come to understand (as I may) and believe all that I do...
I have adopted this as my philosophy (only quite recently, my map is still adjusting) and it is my firm belief
I must say it has given me a startling amount of clarity in any given situation and I have definately experienced FARRR less unhappiness.

Well, I don't know Mez, I read the whole Krishna thing.
But, in my opinion, the universe is build on logic, so you need to turn off your feelings to grasp the actual truth instead of the wrong ones, any feeling will bend the logic the wrong way, the way you want it to go subconsciously.
We believe what we want to believe instead of the truth imo.

Some feelings are to die for in a human point of view, however with an "alien" () point of view, it is just a chemical released in your brain.
That's why I think happiness is just an illusion.

[iNNERvOYAGER]

 Hi Sharpe, thanks for the link www.brainmind.com , that's a good one.

from wikipedia "theoretical physics "
"Modern theoretical physics attempts to unify theories and explain phenomena in further attempts to understand the Universe, from the cosmological to the elementary particle scale. Where experimentation cannot be done, theoretical physics still tries to advance through the use of mathematical models. "

A famous example is the discovery of how to detect black holes by Stephen Hawking. When black holes were purely theory, Hawking created a model that predicted that black holes actually emit x-rays from the event horizon. As a result, black holes are now detected and are a scientific fact.

"Where experimentation cannot be done"

I recommend that you start with the basics, as you would in any field of study. (IE, jumping directly to the advanced course might not help.)

The investigation of hypnogogic imagery      (setting aside the subject of audio atm (sounds of beautiful chorus and polyphonic symphony.)
With the modern advancements in 3D graphics, we know that all imagery can be described mathematically and in terms of geometry. (described but not necessarily explained, but it's a start) In my work, I use a 3D engine as a visualization tool, and hope to be able to create emulations of this experience as a form of visual documentation.

We start with the mental practice that enables us to make observation of what appears to be "imagery from another world".
Instead of using the word, "meditation" lets say for example, "mental/brain concentration exercise" instead.

While in good health and with a clear respiratory system, find a quite room, and sit in a comfortable reclining chair.

Practice relaxing the body, releasing tension in the muscles, and with eyes closed, focus attention to the visual field.
When you do this, you naturally focus on the area between the brows.

Quiesce the mind and ignore the inner chatter until it's as quiet as possible. For example, similar to reading without mentally vocalizing the words.

Eventually ( as in my experience, taking years of practice) you will notice that the blank visual field takes on a 3D void appearance.
Imagery begins to form in the void, beginning with vague cloud like donut shapes, to vivid sharp and detailed natural looking cloud formations. (Why are clouds in the sky so fascinating?)
My observation is that the cloud imagery is not from memory of clouds I've seen, rather that the mind is visualizing the geometry of mental structures that are derived from the same fractal like expressions that result in actual cloud formations in nature.

That's the beginning.

With regular and routine practice, observation of imagery that exceeds the beauty and creativity of most artwork can be seen in vivid detail, from the indescribable intricate multi color textured abstracts to scenes of majestic forests populated with an endless variety of plants.

At times the imagery takes on a technical theme, and geometry of architecture and unusual machines can be seen.

As you progress, you will eventually be able to "step" into these scenes and explore with high Fidelity, while maintaining full memory and lucid consciousness.

And, this is sort of the first step.

Where does the imagery come from?
I could say that this is created individually by my brain in isolation, or that I could be seeing something that we all share on a quantum level for example.
Based on the theory that synaptic processes depend on quantum functions to solve the sense of perseption.

A note on hypnagogic imagery and audio  : in the diagnosis of schizophrenia, hallucination symptoms are "Aside from hypnogogic and hypnopompic hallucinations"
In my case, this never happens spontaneously, and requires a deliberate initiation of a process to achieve this state. So, no, I'm not hallucinating as a result of mental illness.

- I V

[Mez]

I could say that this is created individually by my brain in isolation, or that I could be seeing something that we all share on a quantum level for example.

Have you read Franks phasing resource?

Focus 2 is your subconcious and anything you create from that is created by your brain in isolation but going further Focus 3 becomes once again (like Focus 1 (physical)) a common consensus reality "something that we all share on a quantum level".

The 3D blackness or that void is halfway between F2 and F3 so you could use it to access either.

[iNNERvOYAGER]

Have you read Franks phasing resource?

Yeah, I like to refere to that when people talk about the fear of "going out of the body"
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_obe_discussions/danger_of_oobe_or_lucid_dreaming-t26718.0.html;msg222124#msg222124

This thread starts with an article about a research project of tactile sensory disassociation with the help of VR goggle monitors.

The problem is caused by an ignorant journalist, Andy Coghlan, making off the wall assumptions and conclusions about the research.

"Out-of-body experiences are 'all in the mind' 19:00 23 August 2007 NewScientist.com news service, Andy Coghlan.

I was just trying to explain to Sharpe that it's not realistic to begin learning about a subject by jumping to the most advanced part, and that I'm suggesting to begin with the basics first. The first part of my post follows along with Frank's description of how you start the basics of phasing, and relating my personal experiences.

What are your personal experiences in regards to Frank's description of phasing?

[Mez]

i found franks resource to be rather enlightening... after my first AP I got the feeling that I didnt really go out of my body but I also knew it wasnt a dream and that I had a level of waking conciousness throughout. This means I had to be somewhere but I didnt know where... in light of what frank said I was probably projecting to Focus 2. Ive never really tried phasing as such (the whole 3D blackness thing) but I am super keen to give it a go.

As for going "out" of the body the idea of overlays (in the RTZ case a F1/F3 overlay) is rather interesting and certainly IMHO very valid.

Anyone can say OBEs are all in the mind (and that you dont really go out of the body) but if you look closely at what frank says about Focus 4 (kinda like the source of it all?) technically we may think we are physically moving about all day long but we never actually go ANYWHERE... its all in our mind.

[Novice]

Haha, well I just want to know the truth, black and white is how I like to see things because it gives control.
But it immensely jeopardizes happiness.
Because in some way I think, we aren't supposed to know the truth.
And to know the truth we need to ignore any human feelings.

So you are basically a hard core analytical type...(not bashing, simply making an observation). In my experience, the world is not black and white. It is more like one giant gradient scale of grey. Truth and fact are not the same thing; truth is highly subjective.

Would you agree that we live in a world of duality/polarity? One thing cannot exist in this world without co-existing with its opposite. You can't have hot without having cold. North doesn't exist without south. Up and down are inseperable. The truth is that these opposites exist quite harmoniously in the world (assuming humans don't mess with them). The opposite of logic is emotion. Anyone who is emotional is never logical and vice-versa. I don't believe 'the truth' can be found in living by one to the exclusion of the other. I think 'the truth' is that both are needed in balance to truly live life.

Now, you can raise the issue, as you have also done, that happiness (and I'm assuming other emotions as well) are all an illusion. This is not a new concept. Indian's refer to it as maya. They consider this world an illusion. Pain and happiness are simply illusions. I agree with some of this concept, but not most of it.

But, in my opinion, the universe is build on logic, so you need to turn off your feelings to grasp the actual truth instead of the wrong ones, any feeling will bend the logic the wrong way, the way you want it to go subconsciously.
We believe what we want to believe instead of the truth imo.

I think belief and truth are closely linked. Something is true for you because you believe it. Wanting to believe something doesn't make it true. You don't believe in OBE's, therefore they aren't true for you. However, OBEs are very true to me because I've experienced them. Because of those experiences, I believe in these types of experiences. Although I don't believe every experience I've read, and there have been a number of them that contradict my own experiences. I only go with my own experiences because those are the only ones I can really judge. As a result, my beliefs are constantly adjusting as my experiences expand.

Now all of the people on this board could make post upon post of their own experiences and why they believe OBEs are real. But I doubt you would believe a single one of them. Why? Because you've never experienced anything like then, therefore you don't believe they're true. I know I didn't believe any of this stuff before I had my own experiences. And like Selski's suggested several times, if it is something you want proof of, you need to look no further than the person looking back at you in the mirror.

Regardless of the 'proof' anyone here provides, the only thing you should put your faith in is what you yourself experience. Otherwise, its too easy to let beliefs run rampant and take control of logic. This is one of the reasons why I think logic and emotion are partners in life. Without logic, life is chaotic and rampant. Without emotions, life is grey and hollow. However, if the two are happily married... 

Just a few thoughts!