ISLAM........what does it teach?

[Mustardseed]

For years I have had experience with Islam, in countries under Islamic rule. I have seen and felt how Islam is lived in a country professing to follow its teachings and has been deeply disillusioned. It has given rise to a series of questions and I have yet to meet anyone who is able to answer the many pressing questions about the doctrines in the book.

I am hoping that Muslims will answer this post and explain. Please do not quote the Koran as any source of proof for various statements but try to show the greater scheme of things. I believe that Islam is a very sinister Religion and that it is by large hidden from the average Muslim.

Mostly the ones defending Islam tries to discredit Christianity, but as we all know 2 wrongs does not make 1 right, instead try to explain the following doctrines and behavior of your fellow Muslims, in regards to these issues.

Death penalty for apostasy

Multiple wives and the superiority of the man over his wife (divorce proceedings)

Jihad, the waging of war with the Kuffir to reclaim former dominance


There are a few others they will come later

Regards Mustardseed

[Mustardseed]

I find it amazing and quite significant, that while Moslem's always seem to be on the offense about Christianity and other religions, when they are asked to "defend" their own beliefs they run out of arguments.
They seem to prefer threads where they can attack others and get into comparisons with other religions. When they are confronted with their own beliefs, and asked to explain, all you hear is ......silence. Personally this to me is a sign of indoctrination. An indoctrinated fundamentalist always shies away from people who are confirmed, of a different belief, as well as people who have too curious questions and critique.
They simply have been told not to talk to people who are critical of Islam. They cannot  handle a normal conversation, because they are exposed for what they really are and what they believe and all the false fronts are riped away. Very sad.....but it makes sense and confirms my expectations.

[abu-usaama]

My question to you mustardseed, is

1) Why do you forbid the quoting of the Koran for a Muslim to support his beliefs with? Are you afraid of beliefs of the Muslim, and the Qur'an's self-evident nature?

2) Why are those issues pressing to you? Are you personally hurt by my feelings of Muslim superiority? Are you personally hurt that I deem Islam superior to your kufr(unbelief), and that the apostate is deserving of death? Are you personally hurt that Islam has given me the freedom to take more than one woman as a wife? Are you personally hurt that a Muslim man is respected and obeyed by his wife, as opposed to the utter disrespect of a woman to his husband that is present in kaafir societies?

[Mustardseed]

My question to you mustardseed, is

1) Why do you forbid the quoting of the Koran for a Muslim to support his beliefs with? Are you afraid of beliefs of the Muslim, and the Qur'an's self-evident nature?

2) Why are those issues pressing to you? Are you personally hurt by my feelings of Muslim superiority? Are you personally hurt that I deem Islam superior to your kufr(unbelief), and that the apostate is deserving of death? Are you personally hurt that Islam has given me the freedom to take more than one woman as a wife? Are you personally hurt that a Muslim man is respected and obeyed by his wife, as opposed to the utter disrespect of a woman to his husband that is present in kaafir societies?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_o7QnKAmUs&feature=related

According to the rules of argumentation I do not have to justify asking a question. My question is my right. Instead of turning the burden of proof on me please answer the question and support your beliefs. Whether I am jealous or not is a non issue.

Please watch this clip. I can assure you I am not jealous of someone having 4 wives, or having the freedom to marry children. To me this is not freedom.

I am trying to avoid the tedious cycle of circular arguments, so commonly used by fundamentalists.

Now on to the actual subject matter , please explain........

[AmbientSound]

Here's an idea:

Usaama gets to quote from his scriptures, BUT.....

for EACH AND EVERY quote, he must provide empirical, objective historical evidence to back up the quotation.



It is the reasoning behind the scriptures that is being questioned, am I correct? For example, why does a man get to beat his wife? What effects has this had on women psychologically and socially in predominantly Islamic societies? What psychological and social effects would beating your wife have on the women of other cultures and religions in the world?

Get used to it, Usaama. People are going to ask the hard questions about Islam based on what they have heard. You've got to show them something concrete. If you can't, you're out of luck, and if this seems consistent in similar arguments, you might want to re-examine Islam. In order to grow and evolve spiritually, one must be willing to admit when they are wrong. The best way to rid yourself of hostility from others is to show them how and why Islam is not what they think it is. Give them the objective, empirical information that all the world agrees upon.

[abu-usaama]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_o7QnKAmUs&feature=related

According to the rules of argumentation I do not have to justify asking a question. My question is my right. Instead of turning the burden of proof on me please answer the question and support your beliefs. Whether I am jealous or not is a non issue.

Please watch this clip. I can assure you I am not jealous of someone having 4 wives, or having the freedom to marry children. To me this is not freedom.

I am trying to avoid the tedious cycle of circular arguments, so commonly used by fundamentalists.

Now on to the actual subject matter , please explain........

Isn't interesting how in your rules you do not hav eto justify  asking a question, yet, in your mind, I have to justify quoting the Qur'an, Allah's Word that He revealed through the Angel Gabriel from above the Seven Heavens.

[abu-usaama]

l

Here's an idea:

Usaama gets to quote from his scriptures, BUT.....

for EACH AND EVERY quote, he must provide empirical, objective historical evidence to back up the quotation.



It is the reasoning behind the scriptures that is being questioned, am I correct? For example, why does a man get to beat his wife? What effects has this had on women psychologically and socially in predominantly Islamic societies? What psychological and social effects would beating your wife have on the women of other cultures and religions in the world?

Get used to it, Usaama. People are going to ask the hard questions about Islam based on what they have heard. You've got to show them something concrete. If you can't, you're out of luck, and if this seems consistent in similar arguments, you might want to re-examine Islam. In order to grow and evolve spiritually, one must be willing to admit when they are wrong. The best way to rid yourself of hostility from others is to show them how and why Islam is not what they think it is. Give them the objective, empirical information that all the world agrees upon.

you need to get used to the fact that Ill quote the Qur'an by itself, because it is self-evident, and an explanation for all things.

The entire world's opinion does not weigh against the Word of Allah.

"And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All­Hearer, the All­Knower.

وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ صِدْقاً وَعَدْلاً لاَّ مُبَدِّلِ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ

And if you obey most of those on earth, they will mislead you far away from Allah's Path. They follow nothing but conjectures, and they do nothing but lie.

وَإِن تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَن فِي الأَرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللّهِ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلاَّ الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلاَّ يَخْرُصُونَ

Verily, your Lord! It is He Who knows best who strays from His Way, and He knows best the rightly guided ones.
إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ مَن يَضِلُّ عَن سَبِيلِهِ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ
" [Qur'an 6:115-117]

In order to grow and evolve spiritually, you need to admit that there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger. If you dont, then all your spiritual evolution is in vain.

[AmbientSound]

l
you need to get used to the fact that Ill quote the Qur'an by itself, because it is self-evident, and an explanation for all things.

No, Usaama, it's not. If it were self-evident, there wouldn't be a debate about it. That pretty much throws out your argument right there if you're sticking to that method. Matter is self-evident, the sky is self-evident, gravity is self-evident your existence is self-evident. Do you see people posting topics on this site such as "Does gravity really exist?" or "Is there really such thing as stuff in the world?" No, because they are universally obvious. Allah's existence and word are not universally obvious.

The entire world's opinion does not weigh against the Word of Allah.

"And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All­Hearer, the All­Knower.

وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ صِدْقاً وَعَدْلاً لاَّ مُبَدِّلِ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِي

Where exactly did I use the word "opinion?" I remember using the phrase "empirical, objective historical evidence." Is Allah going to provide those things in this debate on your behalf?

The rest of the world is pretty important, and I think the rest of the world would agree. Islam benefits from it every day, uses the contributions and discoveries of other people to survive and develop (not to mention kill lots of innocent people, the majority of which are fellow Muslims- it's in the news, Usaama, the news- all the time), does business and trade with foreign nations, etc. The entire planet is interdependent. There is a reason for biodiversity and major air and water currents. If you would examine this interdependence, you would see that this is a message from God. Islam is one participant in a battle of VIEWPOINTS. You need to be more universal in your reasoning. Your supposed 'evidence' only applies to Islam, it does not apply to the rest of the world. You're not making observations yourself, you're quoting from a book that someone else wrote. You don't even know if its content is true but you are willing to believe with every ounce of your heart and soul that it is, and you unrealistically insist that others accept it as truth (because you are using quotes from it without providing any other kind of *evidence*). Has any of Islam's scriptures been, even if inadvertently, validated by international science, psychology, and sociology? Do they corroborate the claims made in the scriptures?

In order to grow and evolve spiritually, you need to admit that there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger. If you dont, then all your spiritual evolution is in vain.

I disagree, strongly, especially seeing as "admitting" to something I don't know to be true would be lying, which would be spiritual degeneration.


Now onto Mustardseed's rules: his are universal, Usaama, and yours are not. He is asking you for things like statistical evidence, polls, surveys, and more empirical data. In other words, facts. Nobody is questioning whether the Quaran is the word of Allah, what is being questioned is whether or not Islam is a sinister, evil religion, based on the testimonies of ex-Muslims, such as the woman in the video for which Mustardseed provided a link, and by current ones.

And in a more simplified way, what does Islam teach?

[Mustardseed]

You explain it better than me. Thanks, and you are right. I would like to simply ask what Islam teaches on various subjects. Is that too much to ask. .

You also say that Muhammed was the perfect man so you should try to emulate his way of life, this is why the Hadith is so important, they are samples of how he lived.

How about beheading those who leave your religion?

How about marrying a 6 year old and consummating the marriage at 9.?

How about killing the Kaffir to spread Islam.?

Do tell if I have misunderstood these things or defend these issues, so I can embrace your religion.

[AmbientSound]

Usaama, it is imperative that you use knowledge that is agreed upon by Muslims and non-Muslims alike. This is often referred to as "common ground," and is essential for reaching any kind of understanding. This is the best way to get your point across to a non-Muslim. Generally speaking, quotations from your scriptures do not hold the same convictions in the hearts and minds of non-Muslims as it does with you. You need to be more universal in your communication.

What you are doing is akin to going to a foreign country, where they speak a different language, and continuing to speak to others in that country using your own language. Nobody understands you and they all look at you as if you've got three heads. If you are going outside of your Muslim sphere, into "the rest of the world," then you've got to learn how to interface with the rest of the world. Your statements so far  show that you clearly do not have that interface developed, or are choosing not to use it.

I hope this helps you in your attempts to convey your points.

[Mustardseed]

Personally I think he is a liar, and does not live in LA, just another sample of how he feels he can deceive the Kaffir. I base that on these quotes

"Are you personally hurt that Islam has given me the freedom to take more than one woman as a wife?"

"Are you personally hurt that I deem Islam superior to your kufr(unbelief), and that the apostate is deserving of death"

Sounds like the talk of a Mideastern person.

I guess we will never know.

[AmbientSound]

 "Are you personally hurt that I deem Islam superior to your kufr(unbelief), and that the apostate is deserving of death"

"Are you personally hurt that Islam has given me the freedom to take more than one woman as a wife?"



Sounds like somebody has issues with the size of his manhood. Who needs four wives and a feeling of superiority over others? Civilized people don't have attitudes like that, because they know well the consequences of having such attitudes. Hitler wasn't civilized, and neither was Napoleon. They were ruthless tyrants bent on world conquest (wow, just like Islam!).

Now that there have been a couple of replies, Usaama will conveniently avoid the challenges to his points made earlier in hopes that readers will forget, which, by default, would render his points illegitimate. He knows that denying our points would make him look like a madman, because only a madman would believe otherwise. Since he has no evidence to suggest otherwise, he chooses not to respond.

[AmbientSound]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut0NQCGRqYI

I see more evidence of spiritual evolution in my dog.

[abu-usaama]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut0NQCGRqYI

I see more evidence of spiritual evolution in my dog.

that has nothign to do with Islam, you worthless dog.

[abu-usaama]

You explain it better than me. Thanks, and you are right. I would like to simply ask what Islam teaches on various subjects. Is that too much to ask. .

You also say that Muhammed was the perfect man so you should try to emulate his way of life, this is why the Hadith is so important, they are samples of how he lived.

How about beheading those who leave your religion?

How about marrying a 6 year old and consummating the marriage at 9.?

How about killing the Kaffir to spread Islam.?

Do tell if I have misunderstood these things or defend these issues, so I can embrace your religion.

Okay Mr. MustardDung,

firstly, if you want to know what Islam teaches, then why dont you ask about its dogma? The dogmatic part, the belief part, is the main issue that separates Islam from other faiths, not issues of legality. Rarely does it cross my mind, or the minds of other Muslims, to kill someone if he left the religion, or to marry someone young, or to kill "The kaafir".

Regarding the completely irrelavant issues you brought up, firstly, no where does Islam say to behead those who leave it. Secondly, the prophet sws married aysha when she was a woman, after she hit puberty. Thirdly, there is nothing wrong with fighting to uplift the Truth.

[AmbientSound]

Resorting to insults, are we, Usaama? How spiritually evolved. I see a pattern here, and it's getting old fast.

Actually, I think the clip has a everything to do with Islam- more specifically, the greater Jihad- and once again you haven't backed up your statement. The woman was holding up the Koran and came to apologize, and what did her fellow Muslims do? They ignored their own alleged religious convictions, and decided that, despite the fact that she herself was innocent, since she was related to the offender, they would rape her. The courts then allowed the men to go free, even though they were initially sentenced. That is not spiritually evolved.

Conveniently ignoring my previous responses, Usaama? 14 replies have been posted. Are you going to make a valid point anytime soon or are you just here to insult people who disagree with your delusions?

[abu-usaama]

Resorting to insults, are we, Usaama? How spiritually evolved. I see a pattern here, and it's getting old fast.

Actually, I think the clip has a everything to do with Islam- more specifically, the greater Jihad- and once again you haven't backed up your statement. The woman was holding up the Koran and came to apologize, and what did her fellow Muslims do? They ignored their own alleged religious convictions, and decided that, despite the fact that she herself was innocent, since she was related to the offender, they would rape her. The courts then allowed the men to go free, even though they were initially sentenced. That is not spiritually evolved.

Conveniently ignoring my previous responses, Usaama? 14 replies have been posted. Are you going to make a valid point anytime soon or are you just here to insult people who disagree with your delusions?

you live delusions and your existence is an insult.

thank God for verbal abuse to use on people like you.

[AmbientSound]

you live delusions and your existence is an insult.

thank God for verbal abuse to use on people like you.

How to survive an Usaama attack...

http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=29947

[AmbientSound]

Illigitimentae non carborandum!

[AmbientSound]

Okay, on a more serious note...


Usaama, I have never met anyone as foolish, gullable, silly, stupid, and childish as you. The ineptitude of your logic, reasoning, and understanding is truly astounding and appalling. It is an embarrassment for the entire human race. You'd rather be a spoon-fed battery for the Matrix than a living, breathing human being. You are confusing arrogance with spirituality. Learn the bleeping difference. You refuse to put yourself in someone else's shoes and see things from THEIR perspective for once, your lack of originality in your insults is more annoying than the insults themselves, and I really don't have to waste energy pointing out what a fool you are, except to you, because it is so obvious to everyone else and I think everyone who has been reading this would agree. I made an attempt to help you by explaining what you need to do in order to get your points across and you still won't listen. Not only did you not acknowledge my efforts, you decided that ignorance is your best friend. Well have fun in your darkness, I will stay right where I am in the Light of God's presence and grace where I continue to grow and evolve in all ways, and others witness it and tell me so without me having to ask it or bring it up. The battle you fight here in this forum is a losing battle for you, as it will be wherever free-thinkers are found. YOU are the non-believer, YOU are the true Kuf'r. Nature IS GOD, if you haven't noticed already. Jesus warned of false prophets and Muhammad was one of them.

Islam plays to your enormous ego, Usaama, and the weight of it is crushing your spirit.

You know nothing and you're a liar as Mustardseed pointed out. Now either answer the bleeping questions or stop posting and let a REAL Muslim answer them.

[Shams Tabrizi]

False prophet? Please. Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the Final Prophet. Here are a list of his end-time prophecies, all of which have come true:

a. The barefooted bedouins competing in building tall buildings. Today we find in the Arabian Peninsula, the Arabs who used to be impoverished herders of camels and sheep, are competing in building the tallest tower blocks. The latest example is the Burj Dubai in the United Arab Emirates which once completed will be the tallest tower in the entire world. (see http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2005/07/dubai_01_598x533.jpg)

b. The Mosques would be like palaces. This is clearly the case, even though the Prophet ordered simplicity in the houses of Allah, the mosques have become more and more fantastic, with golden domes, marbled floors, lavish carpets and chandeliers. (see http://www.islamicarchitecture.org/architecture/i/mosques/sultan/i111.jpg)

c. Disappearance of trustworthiness, so much so that one would only be able to say: "I know a trustworthy person in such-and-such town."

d. The increase in killing, so that the one who kills does not know why he killed, and the one killed does not know why he was killed. Look at the gang warfare where people kill and get killed for no reason, the epidemic of public mass shootings in America, and the new "familicide" (where a man or woman kills his entire family including the children before committing suicide.)

e. The increase of the use of riba (usury/interest) so that no one will able to escape being tainted by it. This clearly the state of the world economy today.

f. The enemies of the Muslims dividing the Muslim's wealth and lands between them, the Muslims abandoning jihad, and concerning themselves only with the worldly matters.

g. The increase of literacy - many people will be able to read but they won't possess true knowledge.

h. The decrease of religious knowledge due to the disappearance of scholars.

i. The increase of musical instruments, and the Muslims making it lawful even though the Prophet has forbidden them.

j. The increase of sexual promiscuity, and new diseases that people had not heard of before spreading amongst them as a consequence of that. This is clear, with the arrival of AIDS, and other previously unheard of Sexually Transmitted Diseases.

k. Appearance of Dajjals (liars, antichrist, imposters), each claiming to be a Messenger of Allah, while Muhammad is the last messenger. There are numerous examples of this, starting with Musailima, who arose in the time of the Prophet, just before his death, to more modern liars such as Elija Muhammad, founder of the Black American racist movement "The Nation of Islam", and India's pretender Gulam Ahmed of Qadian.

l. Nakedness of women while still being dressed and people copulating like donkeys in public. Obviously a direct reference to soft and hard-core pornography, and the way women dress where you can still see their nakedness (cleavage, short skirts) and body shape.

m. The drinking of wine becoming common, and the Muslims making it lawful by calling it another name.

n. Shouting in the mosques and lack of unity.

o. The worst and most ignorant will become leaders and they will be oppressors. George Bush is a prime example.

p. A man will obey his wife and disobey his mother, and treat his friends kindly and shun his father.

q. Men will wear silk and gold, and the making of it lawful by the Muslims even though the Prophet had forbidden it for the men of his 'Ummah (nation).

r. People will abandon the religion for a small worldly gain, and keeping to the religion will be like holding two hot coals.

[Shams Tabrizi]

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) warned us about the Dajjal (The Antichrist). He said:

Allah is not one-eyed, but the Dajjal is blind in his right eye, and his eye is like a floating grape.
[Sahih Muslim]

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

Shall I tell you something about the Dajjal which no Prophet has ever told his people before me? The Dajjal is one-eyed and will bring with him something which will resemble Paradise and Hell; but that which he calls Paradise will in fact be Hell. I warn you against him as Noah warned his people against him.
(Bukhari, Muslim)

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

If you are confused, know that your Lord is not one-eyed, and that no one will be able to see the Lord [in this world].

Take a look at the back of the American dollar bill. Tell me, what do you see? You see one eye floating above an unfinished pyramid - the ONE EYE of the ANTICHRIST!

How can you worship nature and other things besides the Most High? How can you worship the created instead of the Creator who created it? You are an ignorant arrogant fool and a filthy pagan.

The great great female Sufi poet Rabi'a al-'Adawiyya said:

O God, Whenever I listen to the voice of anything
You have made—
The rustling of the trees
The trickling of water
The cries of birds
The flickering of shadow
The roar of the wind
The song of the thunder, I hear it saying:
"God is One! Nothing can be compared with God!"

May Allah guide you or destroy you.

[abu-usaama]

may God reward you shams for your input.

As for you ambientsound, you have some issues. i post to inform about Islam, not to be your amigo.

a Muslim and a non-Muslim can sit down and talk, that doesnt mean, however, that a Muslim will give up what he believes. We Muslims have real, pure, knowledge. Knowledge from Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth. Never will we bely it.
Everything that the Prophet Muhamma d(peace and blessings of God be upon him) informed of is certain knowledge, knowledge that carries no doubt in it, and is outside the realm of speculation.


you also asked me if i believe Jesus is my savior. I dont beleive that. God is my savior and I have no other.

[interception]

@"the infidels": You can't argue with fundamentalist, brainwashed religious zealots guys... just give up.

ALL religions claim their knowledge is most real/pure/bestest/awesome, nothing new there. If you claim "secret knowledge" then its even worse, cultist alarms start going off.

Also, if you have to quote to justify everything you do without being able to think for yourself and shape your opinions to apply to the universal, well then you arent going to convince anybody else but the allready brainwashed.

[Mustardseed]

You explain it better than me. Thanks, and you are right. I would like to simply ask what Islam teaches on various subjects. Is that too much to ask. .

You also say that Muhammed was the perfect man so you should try to emulate his way of life, this is why the Hadith is so important, they are samples of how he lived.

How about beheading those who leave your religion?

How about marrying a 6 year old and consummating the marriage at 9.?

How about killing the Kaffir to spread Islam.?

Do tell if I have misunderstood these things or defend these issues, so I can embrace your religion.

so now we are a few more Muslims posting, good, so how about sticking to the thread. Forget Christianity forget what others believe.......what do you believe, and what does Islam teach. ?

Do tell