ISLAM........what does it teach?

[Stookie]

I'm not pointing any fingers, just coming in for a brief moment to let everyone know that heated debates are fine, but PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't insult each other. You don't have to respect each other or their beliefs, but please respect the Astral Pulse community and it's rules.

[Mustardseed]

I'm not pointing any fingers, just coming in for a brief moment to let everyone know that heated debates are fine, but PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't insult each other. You don't have to respect each other or their beliefs, but please respect the Astral Pulse community and it's rules.

Hi Sto
I would appreciate if you would indeed point fingers. There is no need to be so politically correct. I have tried to stick to the thread, and although I have made no attempt to hide my critique of Islam, it is entirely our Muslim members who have and continue to insult others. We have been called uncivilized dogs and our existence has been named an insult etc How about if you in the moderators forum draw a line in the "sand" as pertaining to these fundamentalists and their religious rhetoric. I dare say that if this had been posted by a Christian fundamentalist he would have been banned many moons ago. Why the leniency? 

I have questioned such religious beliefs as capital punishments for apostasy, marrying children and killing innocent people to promote a specific religion, (all of which have been stated and confirmed by Osama as his personal belief) and I find believe I am justified in questioning a religion or religious leaders who endorse such things.

A few of the AP RULES: Posting...... "knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, profane, threatening, or otherwise violative of any law."

OSAMA about Islam : (The Koran) is informed of is certain knowledge, knowledge that carries no doubt in it, and is outside the realm of speculation.

OSAMA about respect: you live delusions and your existence is an insult. Thank God for verbal abuse to use on people like you.

OSAMA about defaming: Okay Mr. MustardDung (LOL pretty funny actually)........to AS: you worthless dog.

OSAMA on knowingly false: Secondly, the prophet sws married aysha when she was a woman, after she hit puberty. (every muslim knows he married Aysha at 6 and had sex with her to consumate the marrige at 9, hardly a woman.)

[Super Sonic]

i. The increase of musical instruments, and the Muslims making it lawful even though the Prophet has forbidden them.

Could you elaborate on this please?

[Mustardseed]

Could you elaborate on this please?

Another teaching of Islam, that might interest some, namely that music is Haram, (forbidden) listen to this:

Satan has trapped the weak hearts in the love of singing and made it beautiful to them. Satan reveals to his agents' fake proofs that they use as evidence to the beauty of singing. These people accept Satan's revelation and, as a consequence, abandon the Qur'aan. When you witness them while listening, you will find them silent in humbleness, sitting idle and their hearts are concentrating and totally enjoying music and singing. Their hearts will feel closer to music, as if they were drunk. They dance and move in a suggestive manner, like faggots and whores. And why not? They are drunk with the pleasure of listening to music and singing and act accordingly (this is from a Hadith by Ighathat Al-Lahfan.)

[abu-usaama]

OSAMA on knowingly false: Secondly, the prophet sws married aysha when she was a woman, after she hit puberty. (every muslim knows he married Aysha at 6 and had sex with her to consumate the marrige at 9, hardly a woman.)

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=2610353

Nearly half of African-American girls start showing signs of puberty by 8 years old, and some American girls are developing as young as 5, even 4 years old, experts say.

http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/05/08/10/girls_hitting_puberty_at_younger__amp_younger_ages_experts_say_exposure_to_plastics_and_insecticid.htm

    *

      Over 27 percent of African-American girls, and 6.7 percent of white girls showed signs of puberty including breast or pubic hair development by the age of 7.
    *

      By the age of 8, 48.3 percent of African-American girls and 14.7 percent of white girls had one or both of these characteristics.
    *

      By the age of 3, 1 percent of whites and 3 percent of African-Americans had such characteristics.

[Shams Tabrizi]

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) warned us that one of the Signs of the Day of Judgment is when musical instruments will be widespread and female singers will be popular.

Music is extremely popular today and many people say such foolish things as: "No music, no life" or "I can't live without music."

Listening to musical instruments and female singers is totally prohibited in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Furthermore, Plato and Buddha also prohibited music.

Musical instruments are pagan idols. Music is the 100% expression of the nafs (passions) of the performer. In order to reach enlightenment, one must learn to control his urges and passions. Therefore, music is a hindrance to achieving true spirituality.

What is permissible in these 3 religions is listening to nasheeds which are acapella, vocal-only chanted poetry/songs. The lyrics must also be pure, wholesome, and free from immoral content.

[Shams Tabrizi]

The Qur'an was sent as a Guide to all of mankind by the Allah - the One and Only God, the Creator of all that exists. Islam simply means submission to God. A Muslim means one who submits to God.

The greatest misconception by non-Muslims that Islam was a new religion started by an Arab named Muhammad. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) did not create his own religion, rather he was the final Prophet and Messenger following the same religion and teachings as all of the Prophets that came before him - including Adam, Abraham, Hermes, Moses, David, Jesus (peace be upon them all). They all preached that God is One and that only He should be worshiped.

"Mankind was [of] one religion [before their deviation]; then Allah sent the prophets as bringers of good tidings and warners and sent down with them the Scripture in truth to judge between the people concerning that in which they differed. And none differed over the Scripture except those who were given it - after the clear proofs came to them - out of jealous animosity among themselves. And Allah guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path."
[The Qur'an 2:123]

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) taught us that we were all born Muslim, but it is our parents who raised us as Jews, Christians, or other religions. This is why I humbly invite you to embrace Islam which is your true religion. Become a Muslim and you will be my brothers in Islam.

Announce the Shahadah - "I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His Final Prophet and Messenger. "

If you accept Islam, all your past sins will be forgiven, all your past good deeds will be kept, and you will be a Muslim. If you reject Islam, then it's between you and God. It's up to you, it's your choice - but please do consider it.

The Prophet Muhammad (peace e upon him) said in his Farewell Sermon:

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black, nor a black has any superiority over a white- except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim, which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not therefore, do injustice to yourselves. "

Allah (God) says in the Qur'an:

"O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted. "
[The Qur'an 49:13]

"And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge. "
[The Qur'an 30:22]

"Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as (if there were) a niche and within it a lamp, the lamp is in glass, the glass as it were a brilliant star, lit from a blessed tree, an olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself), though no fire touched it. Light upon Light! Allah guides to His Light whom He wills. And Allah sets forth parables for mankind, and Allah is All-Knower of everything. "
[The Qur'an 24:35]

And We have not sent you (O Muhammad) but as a mercy to the worlds.
[The Qur'an 21:107]

[interception]

Nearly half of African-American girls start showing signs of puberty by 8 years old, and some American girls are developing as young as 5, even 4 years old, experts say.

May I just ask this: Is it accepted practice in the middle eastern Muslim societies to take children as wife's? Is it allowed in the Qur'an? (By children I mean females younger than 18 years)

[Super Sonic]

First of all, thank you all for your replies. I was muslim myself until the age of 10 or 11, since I was born into a muslim family. However, I suffered A LOT back then and after a lot of thinking decided I would be better off not hoping for miracles from God, if there was one. I am now an atheist, therefore I question religions, especially Islam, a lot. I personally don't know the answer to all those questions asked in the first post, but what got me really interested is the thing about musical instruments. It's weird IMO. I mean, I really can't live without music and I know many people who can't either. Also, there is the case with "ilahi"s (when I look the word up in a dictionary, it shows "chant", "hymn" and "psalm" as the word's equivalent in English, so I'm not sure.) which are umm songs (?) that praise the religion, God and the Prophet, and they are performed with instruments as well.

May I just ask this: Is it accepted practice in the middle eastern Muslim societies to take children as wife's? Is it allowed in the Qur'an? (By children I mean females younger than 18 years)

I don't know what it says in the Qur'an, but it is not allowed my country (Turkey) whose population consists majorly of muslims. It is an Islamic country in other words, but you have to be at least 18 to be able to get married legally. Then again, there is a thing called "imam espousal" in which you are allowed to get married to a person of any age by permission of an imam. This is practiced in my country as well, especially when men want to marry more than once.

[Mustardseed]

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=2610353

Nearly half of African-American girls start showing signs of puberty by 8 years old, and some American girls are developing as young as 5, even 4 years old, experts say.
http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/05/08/10/girls_hitting_puberty_at_younger__amp_younger_ages_experts_say_exposure_to_plastics_and_insecticid.htm
Over 27 percent of African-American girls, and 6.7 percent of white girls showed signs of puberty including breast or pubic hair development by the age of 7.
By the age of 8, 48.3 percent of African-American girls and 14.7 percent of white girls had one or both of these characteristics.
By the age of 3, 1 percent of whites and 3 percent of African-Americans had such characteristics.

So let me see if I understand you right. You say that as soon as a girl starts to develop pubic hair, she is a woman and as such "fair game" as a wife. Your prophet set the standard, and you have no problem with a 60yr old marrying a 6-9 year old as long as she had started to menstruate? Is this correct?

Could this appalling attitude and sexual perversion, so common among young Muslim males, have anything to to with the exploding rape statistics of western Europe. Check this out


http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/757-Pan-European-Arab-Muslim-Gang-Rape-Epidemic.html

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=7BD5FD4E-81C2-49E9-A1CA-232A9B26ADE7

[interception]

So let me see if I understand you right. You say that as soon as a girl starts to develop pubic hair, she is a woman and as such "fair game" as a wife. Your prophet set the standard, and you have no problem with a 60yr old marrying a 6-9 year old as long as she had started to menstruate? Is this correct?

He quoted a bunch of statistics as if it is supposed to prove something. What is it supposed to prove? That it is okay to have sex with an emotionally immature child because "she has HIT puberty"? It is absolutely disgusting if that is a widespread practice, which I still hope is not the case.

[Mustardseed]

Yes rather disturbing, yet very much like I understand Islam. In Islam woman is seen merely as a sort of companion made by Allah to satisfy mans need for sex. This is why they are seen as someones property and covered in various scarfs and chaudors and hijabs. This is also why a woman often receives punishment in a rape case for enticing a man. They are seen as inherently "vile", in regards to their sexuality, and certainly by virtue of birth inferior to man. Truly an object more than an equal. A western kufr woman is seen as a beast, raping her is in line with masturbating, she is nothing a mere infidel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nUI3TUdFCk&feature=related

"lets face it woman was created from a crooked rib"

[interception]

"lets face it woman was created from a crooked rib"

There is the problem with religion right there. Can't argue with that one, can we? A crooked rib? Thats his justification is it? Amazing. 

I'm not even gonna go there this time... except to say that the barbaric way woman are treated in certain Muslim societies is absolutely deplorable.

"Oh, we have eradicated pornography, but we treat our woman like total dirt." Way to go sport. Progress has indeed been made... *deep sigh*

[Shams Tabrizi]

In Islam, we are allowed to marry once we reach puberty - this defines adulthood. It is also the same in Judaism - once you hit puberty you are also considered an adult and a Jewish boy will have his bar mitzvah while a Jewish girl will have her bat mitzvah.

In Islam, we don't have any type of physical or sexual contact with the other gender before marriage. Therefore, we are encouraged to marry young (normally around 15-20) so this prevents us from falling into the sins of fornication/adultery. The majority of Muslims don't get married until after they graduate from university - around 25-30. This causes a lot of problems because it also is unnatural and denies a person his natural right to intimacy. It is best if all people marry by the age of 18.

We don't have sexual perversion. In Western society you accept pornography, homosexuality, sadomaschism, rape, scat-tinkle, necrophilia, bestiality, and all types of sexual perversions. You think all of this is natural and okay to do, but in Islam we don't have such filth and garbage. You would never find somebody like John Wayne Gacy or Jeffrey Dahmer in our countries.

About woman being created from a crooked rib, sure what's your big deal?

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

"Treat your women with affection. Verily, the woman is created from the rib. The most crooked rib is the upper one - if you try to straighten it, you will break it."

We Muslims also have a saying that goes like this:

"The first woman was created from the rib of a man.  She was
not made from his head to top him, nor his feet to be trampled
upon by him, but out of his side to be equal to him, under his
arm to be protected by him, and near his heart to be loved by him."

[Shams Tabrizi]

In response to your attitude about not living without music... Then how could you ever reach enlightenment and attain true spirituality if you can't even sacrifice your addiction to music? There are children starving in Africa and Asia and the rest of the world who don't even have a bite to eat. All they want is some food and water to live then you say you can't live without music? No, that's a lie. You can't live without food and water, the kind that nourishes not only your body but also your soul. You can't live without God.

[Mustardseed]

Like many issues the marrige of children can be made to look very innocent and indeed acceptable, at least the way you describe it. However this is your rosy-colored-glasses-view and certainly not reality, as it is lived in Islamic countries.

While I in principle agree, that perversions are a scourge to mankind, and forms some of the worst symbiotic attachments to negs, these same things are also present in Islamic countries. One could argue that people who engage in these activities in the west do so by mutual consent, but in Islamic countries this is not the case. I have personally met and seen muslims in Bombay who were monsters, abusing poor indian prostitutes in the most horrific ways. One guy messed up a Indian prostitute so bad that to cover his crime he threw her from a 5th floor balcony and claimed she committed suicide. He paid off the  police and went scot free (I knew the policeman on the case)

The majority of sexual perversions in Islamic countries are along the line of sodomy and childabuse.

http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Islamic-sexual-perversion.htm

I find that you post very hypocritical and inaccurate. Here is a small quote from Ayatollah Khomeini

Ayatollah Khomeini:
A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he
should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and
damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her
life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives.
The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister.
From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom,
Iran, 1990

and a few more:

Bestiality

Is there a proper Muslim way to have sex with animals? Indeed, there is! Guidelines for sex with animals can be found in the writings of Ayatollah Khomeini. Two excerpts from his writings serve to clarify the matter.


"A man can have sex with sheep, cows and camels and so on. However, he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village; however, selling the meat to the next door village should be fine."

Khomeini's "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990

"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrement become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed and as quickly as possible and burned."

Now I am sure you will say that this is fake but believe me it is not. Can it be true that you are so ignorant about the life of your own leaders and the way Islam is actually lived. This is strange to me. I guess you choose to believe whatever you are told rather than to see for yourself.

Your choice

http://www.geocities.com/islampencereleri3/sayings_of_ayatollah_khomeini.htm

Do explain.................

[Shams Tabrizi]

You are a liar. India is a Hindu country, not Muslim. Only 13% of Indians are Muslims. The rest are Hindus. Prostitution is rampant in every single Western city, where prostitutes are often murdered and killed. Women live in fear in your countries because so many are raped every moment. We don't have such fear in Muslim societies. Our women can walk the streets safely without worrying about being raped and killed or worrying about murderers like Ted Bundy who stalk and murder women. Furthermore, Ayatullah Khomeini was part of the Shi'a (Shiite). The Shi'a are not Muslims. There's no need for me to defend him because he is not a Muslim. He has nothing to do with Islam and he is not a leader for us Muslims in any shape or form, whatsoever. However, unless you've read his book yourself in its original Persian language, then I don't see how you can copy and paste from an internet article which has no real source. But it doesn't matter because the punishment for rape, adultery, incest, bestiality, sodomy in Islam is death.

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said regarding bestiality:

"Whoever has sexual relations with an animal, kill him and the animal."

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said regarding sodomy:

"Kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done."

God declares that rapists, highway robbers, serial killers, and other such people who cause fear and disrupt the peace of society are to be sentenced to the death penalty and executed:

"The recompense of those who wage war against Allaah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter"
[The Qur'an 5:33]

Muslim families are tightly knit and very close. We don't have to worry about our father getting a gun and killing his own wife and children like happens in your country. This phenomenon in the West is so common you even call it "Familicide". We can walk down the street and go to the mall without worrying about some madman going on a public shooting rampage. We can send our children to school safely where they don't have to worry about their fellow pupils bringing a gun to school and shooting up the classroom. So don't you dare try to look at our problems because you have a million problems that just keeps on getting worse.

We could go on and on but the reality is your society is totally messed up - not our's. We don't have even half the problems that you have. The only problems we have now is due to Westernization of our countries and trying to destroy our society's moral fabric. Bestiality (having sex with animals) is legal in your country. Sadomasochism (BDSM - where a man beats a woman brutally while having sex with her and totally humiliates her as if she's not even human) is legal in your country. Gangbangs (a bunch of men taking turns having sex with one woman) is legal in your country. Orgies (wild group sex) is legal in your country. Adultery (cheating on your wife with other women or even men) is legal in your country. Having a baby with a woman outside of wedlock and then abandoning her and the baby is legal in your country. Aborting and murdering an innocent baby because you were messing around is legal in your country. Coprophilia aka Skat (the sexual fetish of eating poop/feces) is legal in your country. Necrophilia (having sex with dead bodies) is legal in your country.

[Mustardseed]

Please refrain from calling me a liar. I speak the truth in this matter, and don't get so riled up. Yes India is Hindy, but Bombay was at the time I was living there over run with sex tourists from the Arab peninsula. Men from Bahrain AbuDhabi, Dubai, SA, etc were flocking by the thousands to India (and probably still are) to abuse Indian children and female prostitutes. Get over it Moslims are not innocent by virtue of being born Muslim.

Yes I know that he is Shia but you do have to defend him cause he is a Muslim. You constantly attack me for things that happens in the west but not done by me, and political derisions made by America, a country that is not mine, and you expect me to argue in defense. We are arguing for our civilizations, you for yours and me for mine. Do so without namecalling and jumping to conclusions.

As you can see gang rape is becoming  a problem in Europe, perpetrated by gangs of Muslim youth,  adress that. I claim it is possibly because of the lack of respect that Islam teaches its followers you should show for the Kaffir. Sex with children is also a problem in Muslim countries but has been legalized through marriage, a 50 year old can marry a child as soon as she es starting puberty.

Try to be reasonable in your arguments, and get used to the fact that Islam also has its problems. In my country  80% of violent crime is committed by Muslims, who only is a tiny minority. 80%.

Are you even following the links i POST

http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/757-Pan-European-Arab-Muslim-Gang-Rape-Epidemic.html

By the way I don't know where you have read that Christianity forbids Music, please give me the source

[Super Sonic]

In response to your attitude about not living without music... Then how could you ever reach enlightenment and attain true spirituality if you can't even sacrifice your addiction to music? There are children starving in Africa and Asia and the rest of the world who don't even have a bite to eat. All they want is some food and water to live then you say you can't live without music? No, that's a lie. You can't live without food and water, the kind that nourishes not only your body but also your soul. You can't live without God.

How do you know I can live without music? Is that written in The Qur'an? Even if I can live without it, there is no way I can escape from hearing some music one way or another. It's really nonsense. Are you a sinner when you are listening to news having a background music on the TV? My intention was to watch the news... Is it a sin when I hear a song being played in a music stroe on the street? I was just passing through. What about drawing pictures? I once heard that this is forbidden in The Qur'an too. If it's a sin, wouldn't it be a bigger sinner when you forbid a disabled person who cannot do anything besides moving his arms? Fine arts should have been the last thing that Islam forbad.

[Shams Tabrizi]

I reiterate that not only are you an evil liar, but you are a filthy liar of the worst kind. Why would I trust anything written in an anti-Islamic website run by Israeli Jews? You can't deny anything I've written because it's all true which is why you keep avoiding the issue.

We cannot change God's Laws in any way. If a scholar declares that it's  permissible to cheat on your wife or rape somebody, not only is he ignored but he also becomes a disbeliever.

We follow two things in Islam - the Qur'an which is God's Word and the Sunnah which is the Way of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). If any scholar or leader contradicts the Qur'an and Sunnah in any way, then we are not to obey them in that.

Furthermore, whoever makes what God has forbidden permissible or makes what God has made permissible forbidden is no longer a Muslim, but rather an apostate.

The fact of the matter is your nation is morally bankrupt and spiritually void. So until you can fix your own corrupt society and correct your own dirty problems, stop pointing fingers at Muslims because you have a billion fingers pointing back at you. That's what's messed up with you Westerners - your hypocrisy. You have such double-standards. One set of rules for you, another set of rules for everybody else.

I'm done with your nonsense. I advise you to read the Qur'an with an open mind and see for yourself what Islam truly teaches. If you reject Islam, you will face the punishment and wrath of God. If you embrace Islam, then you will be in the Gardens of Paradise. May Allah guide you to the Straight Path.

[Shams Tabrizi]

In Islam, we believe that God judges each and everyone of us by our intentions. What appears on the outside of a person may be different from the reality that is inside. An example is some people who donate large amounts of money to charity but do this to be well-known and be called 'generous' instead of purely for the sake of God. Another example would be a man who kills an evil man in order to save an innocent life, but people who did not witness the entire incident would think he was a murderer. However, God knows our intentions and judges us by what is in our heart.

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) told us the story about an Israelite prostitute who noticed a thirsty dog while she walking. She took off her shoe and gathered water from the well and poured it in her shoe then gave it to the dog to drink. God forgave her all her sins and had mercy on her because she showed mercy. Her intention was purity and selflessness for the sake of Allah.

In the end, the issue isn't about music. What's most important is that you embrace Islam and testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is His Final Prophet and Messenger.

Watch these videos of the Qur'an being recited:

Surat al-Mutaffifin ("The Defrauders" - 83rd Chapter of the Qur'an)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l-um8AwIqw

Surat al-Qaf ("Qaf" - The 50th Chapter of the Qur'an)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OnwTQxortA

[Mustardseed]

Well its gonna be interesting isn't it. Who will we meet in the hereafter, and where. You seem so sure, and I tell you what.! If heaven is filled with young Muslim men, copulating with virgins for eternity, clothed in the bloody rags they wore when they blew up innocent children and adults in suicide bombings, .............if heaven is filled with young children, enjoying similar virgins, for being blown up in mass killings in the minefields of Iran and Iraq, I will tell you something. I would rather not bother.

If there is a God, and if he rewards Muslims for blowing up innocent people, giving them a life of luxury, and if this same God gives them more innocent victims in the here after, he is no god of mine. He is a monster and I would rather live in what you call hell, playing music, drinking a few beers with old friends.

It is YOU who is a infidel, you who follow such a God so I guess we wont be seeing each other. Ha

You have successfully changed the topic, from what Islam teaches to another vengeful attack on the west and the moral woes of western civilization. You Muslims are masters of this,................... the questions are unanswered, you are in a religious rage, ready to blow yourself up, threatening hell fire, and vengeance on the infidel, and we are all just sitting here mind blown at your utter ignorance and lack of common courtesy. No wonder your societies, indeed the entire Muslim world, are such a mess, such hell holes. They are permeated with hate and religious fanaticism, and most of all full of people like................you. Ignorant uneducated and uncivilized followers of a religion of suppression. 

Your rhetoric does not fool me, my little fanatic foe, I have seen you close up, lived in your countries and seen your rulers and the laws they enforce. Your so called "civilization" stink to the high heaven owith arrogance, ignorance, and hypocrisy, a melting pot of lunacy threatening to set the world on fire for your "God".

So sad 

[AmbientSound]

Sorry for not replying sooner, I've been away. Good to see that there are more views offered on this thread.

My statement about nature is that nature IS god and vise versa- a singular consciousness/intelligence that includes all the dimensions, all matter and emptiness, as well as consciousness, to all the boundless realms of infinity. I don't understand how that makes me a filthy pagan or ignorant. Maybe we have different definitions on what a god is, but since nobody has seen god, we can sit here and argue about it all day and never make any progress.

As for Christianity and music, I can explain that- I have a degree in music.

During Europe's Dark Ages, the Church (Catholic, obviously) ruled that music must be monophonic. That is, all the singers had to sing the same words at the same time, rather than having one section start in, then another, then another (like a fugue). Christianity did NOT, however, at ANY point, forbid music. Composers were simply strictly limited in what they could write for the masses. This has changed, however, and there is thankfully much more freedom.

In response to your attitude about not living without music... Then how could you ever reach enlightenment and attain true spirituality if you can't even sacrifice your addiction to music? There are children starving in Africa and Asia and the rest of the world who don't even have a bite to eat. All they want is some food and water to live then you say you can't live without music? No, that's a lie. You can't live without food and water, the kind that nourishes not only your body but also your soul. You can't live without God.

I think you are confusing addiction with appreciation.

Personally I enjoy music and I appreciate all forms of it. Like anything else, it can be a tool or it can be harmful. It depends on how it is used. Music itself is a form expression, nothing more. Both music and art help to bring new ideas into the world so that humanity can continue to progress and evolve. Though I do enjoy various forms of popular and less popular music, I hear music in all its forms, including those not recognized by most people. All noises have tones, frequencies, wavelengths, etc. How you perceive it is entirely up to you.





Shams, people in many Islamic countries blow themselves up in marketplaces, on buses, and other high-density civilian areas. It was Muslim extremists who slammed two Boeing 757s into two large buildings filled with innocent people, sank the U.S.S. Cole, and blew up a bus in Europe. Watch the news and please read my earlier posts.

I can admit that there are problems in my country, as there are in yours, as there are in any. Corporate profiteers run rampant in their benefiting at the expense of their fellow countrymen and lawmakers are passing laws that are further restricting our freedom. However, if it were not for the freedom Americans have, you would not be enjoying the Internet as it is today. The computer came out of America, many medical practices came out of America, the idea of freedom is strongly pursued by Americans, even today. Like all countries, America is going through a time of trial. Despite MASSIVE protests and public outcries (I was there), George W. Bush remains in office and continues to unjustifiably enjoy the benefits of the office he has stolen from his worthy opponent back in 2000. I am not any happier about this than you are and I have never supported America going into Iraq. He has undeniably caused great harm to our country and the next president will have a lot of work ahead of them. At least they are willing to sit down and talk with America's perceived enemies to try to reach an understanding.

The reason the U.S. does not want Iran to have nuclear technology is because they are worried that Iran will use nukes against Israel. I won't get into that conflict because it's a complicated issue and would detract from the main issues being discussed here.

I would like to continue this discussion without insults or lack of respect.

[AmbientSound]

It seems that there is still no common ground in the viewpoints here. Correct me if I am wrong. Insults have been flung back and forth and the debate seems to remain heated- at least that is the energy I am feeling from the replies.

I would like to propose a series of questions for everyone who wants to participate in this ongoing debate in order to try and build common ground so that we all have something to go on here. Regardless of the responses, I'm just looking for what everyone agrees on, the rest will be discarded. I will forget the past posts, I just want somewhere to start, which has been the problem with this debate from the beginning. I think it will be necessary to pose more questions like this to everyone as this debate continues so that we can try to increase the common ground between the apparent two sides present. Please try to refrain from using scriptures. Instead, give examples of what you mean (for example, I believe ... like if x and y happened, but not z.). Assume that when I say 'people,' I am referring to ALL people all over the world.

Once again, my aim is to provide a COMMON GROUND so that we can all start at that point. I just want to know what peoples' general beliefs are, general ideas about right and wrong, etc. Please don't go criticizing each others' answers to these questions or telling people that they are wrong. This is just to get an idea of where people stand.









With that said, here are the questions:




1.) Do you believe that there is a common level of respect that should be given to all people?

2.) Do you believe that it is up to each of us to decide for ourselves what our beliefs are, whether or not they turn out to be true, and regardless of the number of people who may agree or disagree with us?

3.) Do you believe that freedom is imperative to religious salvation, spiritual evolution and growth, determining what our values and beliefs are, figuring out who we are individually, etc.?

4.) Do you believe that everyone is born with an innate sense of right and wrong? If not, do you believe that it is something that is learned or something that can be taught?

5.) Do you believe that ritualistic innebriation (the use of mind-altering substances, including, but not limited to, alcohol and tobacco) is acceptable for the acquisition of spiritual knowledge when used with respect and in conjunction with meditation and prayer?

6.) Do you believe that your personal happiness is important?

7.) Do you believe that there can be love between a man and a woman, a man and a man, or a woman and a woman?

8.) Do you believe that both men and women should be treated equally?

9.) Do you believe that both men and women should be acknowledged for their biological differences? Should this affect their civil rights?

10.) How do you define what a god is? Do you believe in one god or many? Why?

11.) Do you believe that wisdom comes from experience?

12.) Do you believe that trial and error is an effective way of learning?

13.) When would you justify killing someone? What would someone have to do to deserve being killed?

14.) Do you believe that it is okay for people to make mistakes, as long as they learn from them?

15.) What forms of expression do you feel are acceptable? What do you believe is okay to express? Do you believe it is wrong to express certain ideas? Which, if any?





I guess since I'm posting the questions, I'll start.



1.) Yes, I believe a common level of respect should be given to all people initially, regardless of who they are, where they come from, what they believe, whether they're a man, woman, or child, etc.

2.) Yes, I think we should all decide what our beliefs are individually. I think it is a part of our spiritual evolutionary path, We are all coming from some viewpoint, and I think we are all, for the most part, seeking to find a common viewpoint.

3.) Yes. I think freedom is an essential element of existence. I believe that we were given free will for a reason and that it helps us figure out who we are and what we stand for, etc.

4.) This is a tough one for me to answer. I believe that in some ways, yes, we are born with an innate sense of right and wrong, but they are not always revealed to us immediately- I would not think to harm someone that I trust, for example. When I was a kid, my mother raised me on her own, with very little support from my father, and because of that, I knew that she cared about my well-being, so I came to trust her. Because of this, I wanted to help her however I could.

5.) This is another tough question. I think ritualistic inebriation is okay, as long as respect is shown for one's body (that means don't do it frequently), mind (keep focused on the topic on which you are meditating), and spirit (give thanks for the blessings that you are about to experience, ask for protection, and ask that they bring you the knowledge and wisdom you seek as long as it serves the highest good). I don't think substance abuse is okay, which I define as getting intoxicated just to feel good. To me this constitutes a violation of the body's health, the clarity of the mind, and the sanctity of the spirit.

6.) I believe that personal happiness is important. I believe that our emotions are an indicator of our state of being- e.g., if you are unhappy, then something needs to change in your life, and if you are happy, then you are on the right track. I do not believe, however, that our personal happiness should come at the expense of others.

7.) I believe that love is a strong mutual attraction between two people. I believe that love is a mysterious but wonderful thing that defies words. I believe that love can happen between two people (possibly more) regardless of their genders.

8.) I believe that both men and women should be treated equally. They should have the same rights and enjoy equal respect, etc.

9.) I believe that the differences between men and women need to be acknowledged, but that this should not affect their rights or freedoms. I believe that it is up to each of us to state what our needs are and express them when necessary.

10.) My definition of what a god is: an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving being. I believe there is only one god, and that this god is responsible for the creation of the Universe as we know it. I believe that this Universe, in all its substance, emptiness, consciousness, unconsciousness, and dimensions, as well as anything and everything else that exists, whether in the mind or elsewhere, makes up this god. I believe this because I feel that people are generally attracted to the one will of serving the people around them and making sure that they are happy and that they are in a state of well-being in all the aspects of their existence. I believe that God is the common uniting factor for us all and that God resides within each of us. Those who do not serve the others around them tend to experience negative emotions more frequently than those who do. There seem to be clues all around that indicate the existence of one god rather than many.

11.) Some wisdom, I believe, comes from experience, while other wisdom comes from the words of others, which can allow us to draw connections between our own experiences that we might not have been able to do otherwise.

12.) I believe that trial and error is the most effective way to learn, because there is no harder way to learn than that. For example,  when you are building a house and you are using a hammer to drive a nail through wood, and you slip and hit your finger, you learn to be more careful in your technique.

13.) I think that killing others should be avoided as much as possible, and should be used only as a last resort. I would justify killing someone who was trying to kill me, I would justify killing someone if they were trying to use physical force to change my beliefs, and I would justify killing someone if they were threatening the lives of my loved ones. I would also justify killing someone if I saw them trying to kill a stranger and the circumstances did not permit me to gather more information about the situation.

14.) Absolutely. And I believe that if someone makes a mistake that is costly for me, then realizes what they did and apologize for it, forgiveness is necessary.

15.) I believe that all forms of expression are acceptable as long as they do not violate the rights, freedoms, and well-being of others. I believe that all things have a time and a place where they are appropriate to express and other times and places where they are inappropriate to express. I don't believe it is wrong to express any idea at all. If you feel like expressing an idea that is not appropriate to express publicly or even to people you may know and trust, you can write it down or draw it in a private journal. Later, you can go back and experience it and decide whether you still agree with it.

[abu-usaama]

1.) Do you believe that there is a common level of respect that should be given to all people?

No, I respect Muslims more than I respect non-Muslims.

4.) Do you believe that everyone is born with an innate sense of right and wrong? If not, do you believe that it is something that is learned or something that can be taught?

Everyone is born with an innate sense of right and wrong. However, the sense isn't godly, so therefore is not a source of legislation.

5.) Do you believe that ritualistic innebriation (the use of mind-altering substances, including, but not limited to, alcohol and tobacco) is acceptable for the acquisition of spiritual knowledge when used with respect and in conjunction with meditation and prayer?

No, all mind-altering substances are forbidden in Islam.

6.) Do you believe that your personal happiness is important?

Of course! Out ultimate personal happiness however, lies in the eternal paradise that God promises the believers. This is the ultimate success.

7.) Do you believe that there can be love between a man and a woman, a man and a man, or a woman and a woman?

Allah states in His Noble Book, the Qur'an(translation of meaning):

"And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect." [Surah Rum 30:21]

Allah places love (muwadda) and mercy (rahma) between the man and the wife as a sign.

As for man on man love, or woman and woman love,  then this is a perversion of the natural order of things.

8.) Do you believe that both men and women should be treated equally?

9.) Do you believe that both men and women should be acknowledged for their biological differences? Should this affect their civil rights?

Legislation is what Allah and His Messenger have legislated. Allah has decreed that men are the gaurdians and protectors of women, and that a woman should obey her husband. the rights of men and women respectively should be derived from Islamic legislation.

10.) How do you define what a god is? Do you believe in one god or many? Why?

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

And there is none like unto Him.  "[Qur'an 112]

Allah! there is no god but Him, the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Throne extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. [Qur'an 2:225]

11.) Do you believe that wisdom comes from experience?

Allah grants wisdom to whom He wishes.

15.) What forms of expression do you feel are acceptable? What do you believe is okay to express? Do you believe it is wrong to express certain ideas? Which, if any?

It's to openly deny God or His signs. It's wrong to say "there is no God". It's wrong to mock God or any of His prophets.  It's wrong to utter evil in public. Expressing disdain towards parents is unacceptable as well.