The impossible concept of infinity

Alan McDougall · June 06, 2008, 05:08:02

Hello Guys,

In my imagination I got trapped on an infinity road, No beginning no end. So on my endless ceaseless journey I constructed barriers like walls to end my journey, but the barriers just then extended out into infinite forever. So to overcome the boredom of my ceaseless travel, I made a paradise to rest in for as long as I like and then countless different paradises and just or fun burning hells to make my lonely life fun

Even God cant be Infinite although he must push on towards it forever!!!!!!!

God

loppoppy · June 12, 2008, 18:13:24

you post a lot of deep...stuff...that people rarely reply to haha.
i can't comprehend infinity, but i can feel it.
and infinity isn't an unending road, coz that would be boring, it's a way of depicting infinity, but infinity is far more complex. i can't imagine infinity being boring, otherwise, it would be pointless!

try to think of it like this, true infinity is not a metaphorical distance or a literal amount of time, as true infinity is without time. Infinity is what it is, no word or description can be accurate whilst on this limited plane, thats why it's best to just feel it out, as feelings from the true self speak meaning that words cannot form.

Alan McDougall · June 12, 2008, 18:35:41

Loppoppy,

Quoteyou post a lot of deep...stuff...that people rarely reply to haha.
i can't comprehend infinity, but i can feel it.
and infinity isn't an unending road, coz that would be boring, it's a way of depicting infinity, but infinity is far more complex. i can't imagine infinity being boring, otherwise, it would be pointless

!

AH!!! But I made my undending road fun, countless different paradises (universes) and hells to enjoy burning my failures with.

Read my thread again and you will see thisi

By the way why does your avatar depict someone in hell?

loppoppy · June 12, 2008, 22:09:35

yes but without these things infinity would still not be boring, whereas an endless road would be =) heehee

hahaha because it depicts a man surrounded by flames you assume it's hell? haha i like that.. Naa thats not what it is, it's just a man, surrounded by flames =)

healixe · June 24, 2008, 17:05:30

i like infinity.
scientists came up with big bang yet they also made an idea of destruction.
i like your story, very deep. dunno what to say really.

Synergy · September 12, 2008, 16:45:26

Infinity = Thought

Think about it... how can the universe be infinite? If it is, then it surely can not be expanding then can it? because if it is, then it has to be expanding into something! Ahhhhh a paradox! And if it is finite, as science seemingly points to.... then there must be boundaries. What are the boundaries?

From The Emerald Tablet of Hermes:

"That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, in the accomplishment of the Miracle of the One. And just as all things have come from One, through the Mediation of One, so all things follow from the One.

This Universe we know, is an image of the above....the creator. It's an image in the creator's mind. It was created by contemplation, and so as a result, is OF the ONE (we are all a part of the One). It was thought, and so it was created, down to every atom. The Bible also states that we were created in the 'image' of God. Commonly taken to mean that he created us to look like him... however, 'image' can also be taken to mean the 'image' in his mind.

Now, how do you define a thought? How much space or time does a single thought take? How about a whole Universe of them? You yourself can create in your mind an entire Universe to explore, that is both limitless (since you can keep creating) and also has boundaries (in the sense that what lies at the edge, is what is not yet thought) It can expand, without needing to expand 'into' something. It can contain space and time (you can immerse yourself in it in a dream for example and you have the feeling of passing time) however, that time may not be what passes here.

Was going to post more but I have to head out for a bit

Alan McDougall · September 12, 2008, 17:29:33

synergy

Hey you make real sense

QuoteThis Universe we know, is an image of the above....the creator. It's an image in the creator's mind. It was created by contemplation, and so as a result, is OF the ONE (we are all a part of the One). It was thought, and so it was created, down to every atom. The Bible also states that we were created in the 'image' of God. Commonly taken to mean that he created us to look like him... however, 'image' can also be taken to mean the 'image' in his mind.

A great astronomer who looked out at the vastness of the universe through his huge telescope said to himself "What am I really looking at"? "A great majestic well oiled machine"

After a moment he said to himself again "No this is no machine but "a beautiful thought in the mind of GOD" This is a true story I read some time ago and I will come back if I can remember who he was

Cleric P · September 16, 2008, 23:19:44

Zeno's paradox shows us that the common interpretation of infinity cannot exist. The paradox draws attention not to the infinitely large, which is what most people think of when discussing the subject, but instead it examines the infinitely small, or more accurately, infinite sub-dividing of distances. Zeno said if infinity was a real concept, then any movement, whether across a space or a time interval, is impossible because you would have to cross an infinite amount of sub-divisions to get to your destination. You obviously cannot fit an infinite quantity into a finite distance.

Look at this way - to cross your room you have to get to the half-way point first. But to get to the half-way point, you first have to cross the 1/4 point, but to get to the 1/4 point, you have to cross the 1/8 point. You get the picture. You can keep sub-dividing the distance into infinity - so you never move ! That goes for time too, you cannot cross an infinite amount of time sub-divisions in a finite length of time.

But we DO move through space and time, don't we ? So does that mean Zeno's paradox is wrong and there IS infinity ? Well my take on this (I'm no Philosophy Major btw) is that the paradox shows something much, much more interesting. Namely that time and space are complete illusion (OK, Buddhists know this already !) - you never move anywhere, not through time nor through space, the 3 dimensions of space and one of time (maybe 3 ?) have no existence other than in the mind's field of perception (whatever that is). Movement as such implies distance, distance implies infinity. Zeno shows that infinity cannot exist, at least in terms of distance or duration, therefore all movement is illusory.

Yes, this viewpoint is not new by any means - it's called Idealism, or Idealistic Monism if you prefer - but for me anyway, Zeno's paradox proves in logical terms that everything we perceive has no objective reality, ie. there is no 'out there', only 'in here'. There is no dualism, only a continuum - the 'one', 'god', 'singularity' ? Everything, I mean everything is created by thought, by belief. Quantum Physics bears this out I believe ? Even the so-called Higher Planes, I think these are also belief-created. But I do not think this in any way diminishes the incredible multiverse ! I have to assume though it is created at a different level of awareness to that which we/it normally use, ie. ego consciousness.

Well that's my take on infinity. I really like Zeno's Paradox (he was an Ancient Greek btw) because is gives a solid, logical proof in my eyes that 'reality' is a non-physical, thought-continuum with unlimited (infinite ?) potential ! The term OBE is in this sense inaccurate because there is no 'body' to be 'out of', it's all a mental realm, even the 'physical'. Basically, if you can believe it, you can have it - everyone's a winner ! No one religion can claim to be 'right', nor any other worldview for that matter - because they all are ! The ultimate Pluralism. I think it's a great starting point for a theory of 'reality'. It'll be interesting to see what others here think of these concepts.

One last thought - isn't it impossible to BE any where in an infinite space ? Surely there is no point of reference so a definitive location is impossible ? I mean it's a logic thing, not a technical limitation - even a god cannot 'place' a 'something' into an infinite space because there is no identifiable location, no reference point. You can't just say 'put it anywhere', because there are no 'wheres', only an everywhere. Aaargh - enough on that.

Alan McDougall · September 17, 2008, 03:55:36

Cleric

Very interesting a know about Zeno's paradox , a frog had to jump a ten yard divide he first jumps half way so he is then at 5 yards then at 2.5 yards then at 1.25 yards. The paradox is that given an eternity he is always moving forward so he must reach the end, but he cant because he can only jump half the remaining distances etc.

But size is relative, who knows the minutest subatomic particle might contain whole universe. Maybe the singularity that created out universe which scientist say was non dimensional. Maybe even at this level of the infinitely minute one could continue downward forever, billions and billions of ever smaller universes.

And likewise so on the macro universes into greater superuniverses , upward forever. Why should we not think infinitely small and who should we not think infinitely big?

Starvingpercussionist · September 22, 2008, 16:56:17

Time is an illusory construct of the mind, reality just is. Infinity is inexplicable and beyond reason, it exists eternally yet only in the now. How would I know all this? I've seen infinity by looking within.

Cleric P · September 23, 2008, 09:36:38

I see where you're coming from, but my point is that infinity in the 'traditional' sense of time and distance without end, is refuted by Zeno's Paradox. I think your use of the word in your post is more to describe your own indefinable subjective experience - in that sense it is not up for discussion of any kind as it's a semantic vacuum which defies any meaningful analysis.

I would also not separate time and 'reality' (define ?) as you have - you say time is illusory, but surely so is 'reality' ? I don't think anything the mind can imagine or experience is anything other than it's own (or possibly shared) fabrication. That I think is especially true of experiences in altered states such as LD and AP. All that truly is, is pure, undifferentiated consciousness, anything else is your own. However, that doesn't mean we can't enjoy exploring our incredible illusions, just don't take them too seriously

Alan McDougall · September 23, 2008, 09:49:56

If time always moves from past to present even God would have a problen keeping up

Please, don't go insane now. Of all the apocalypses on this site, the one you're about to read is probably the most mind-boggling of them all. For what will eternity look like? Think of a place where everything has ceased to exist, where golden parkings pop out of nowhere, Napoleon Bonaparte comes back to life and the Twin Towers resurrect themselves. Still, this incredible place is exactly where we are heading, physicists expect.

Empty your mind. We're about to take a BIG leap into the future. Not just a lousy few billions of years, but 10 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 years!

One 'googol' years, is the official word for that number. It's the current age of the Universe, one billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion times over. Squeeze the entire history of our Universe into the thickness of a dollar bill, and one googol years would give you a pile of money that reaches one hundred quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion light years high. It wouldn't even fit in our Universe.

One googol years. That's truly staggering. Beyond anything a human can comprehend.
First, let's fast-forward to the not-so-awfully-far future. For the coming billions of years, scientists predict quite a ride. The Sun will explode, the Milky Way will slam into another galaxy. The Cosmos might collapse, or get torn apart -- scientists can't seem to decide yet which is more likely. And even if the Universe doesn't do that, we're destined to face a weird and horrible crisis, which involves us spending our lifetime as sleeping robots.

The problem is that the Universe gets bigger and cooler. Ever since the Big Bang, it expands, much like an expanding ball of fire after an explosion. Right now, the Universe is still young. It has these cute stars and twinkling galaxies. But in the long run, that will change. Slowly but inevitably, the Universe will empty itself.

Big Nothing: Eventually, the Universe will become a dark, sterile place
First, the galaxies will fly out of sight, beyond the horizon of what we can possibly see. Next, the stars in our own galaxy will burn out, one after the other. The only thing that will remain, is a dull graveyard of cold planets, dead suns and black holes. In about one hundred trillion years, the Milky Way will go black, astronomers expect.

And eventually, even this graveyard decays. One after the other, the dead stars and planets are eaten by black holes, or kicked out of the Milky Way by collisions. Astronomers expect that in one hundred to one thousand billion billion years, our galaxy has dissolved completely.

Time goes on. After a while (more trillions of years) something else will kick in. You'll notice that even the very stuff nature is made of, isn't stable. A proton, the particle you'll find in the core of atoms, has an average lifetime of 100 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 years. Wait long enough, and it will suddenly vanish. Poof, gone. The same goes for light particles, the so-called 'photons'. They're expected to last a few zero's longer, but in the end, they too will kick the bucket, one after the other. Isn't that just bizarre? The light will go out, literally.

The last thing that survives, are the black holes. But in the end, they too will vanish. They will evaporate in a puff of radiation.

So there we are, at our unimaginable one googol years. Finally, the Universe is totally and utterly empty. You won't see any light or spot any planet -- in fact, you won't even find the tiniest speck of dust. The Universe has sterilized itself. All there is left, is emptiness, and darkness. Total oblivion. And worst of all: there's nothing we can do to stop it. We can build fancy machines or futuristic devices all we like -- but in the end, they'll all get kicked out of existence, when the matter they are made of simply vanishes.
So there you have it: infinity. Booooring, we must add.

But don't sob. There's an upside.

As the quadrillions of years pass by, something very odd should happen. In eternity, even the rarest events get a chance to occur. Weird, bizarre phenomena that only happen once in a zillion years or so, become quite normal.

For example: the nothingness should yield a few surprises. Already, physicists know that in a vacuum, there are sometimes tiny little energy 'blobs'. Little, random fluctuations of the so-called 'quantum vacuum'. Out of nowhere, tiny particles pop in and out of existence. But theory predicts that on very, VERY rare occasions, the fluctuations should be a bit larger. Out of nowhere, an entire atom might appear! Or hey, the vacuum may even spit out a few of them!

Think of it like the static on TV. Wait long enough, and out of the random fuzz, a recognizable image might materialize. Wait REALLY long, and one day a complete episode of The Bold And The Beautiful should accidentally show up!

In the vastness of eternity, even things that are almost impossible become real. Like the sudden appearance of, say, a light green buste of Napoleon Bonaparte.

In the Universe, this should give some really surprising results. With eternity at hand, the vacuum should begin to yield all kinds of objects. Incoherent lumps of random garbage, most of the time. But on very, very rare occasions, you'll see other objects popping into existence. The Eiffel tower. A purple camel. A golden parking garage filled with chocolate Cadillacs. Napoleon Bonaparte sitting next to Mike Tyson on top of a stack of comic books. As the googols of years pass by, it's all there.

In the VERY, VERY, VERY long run, the vacuum will even belch up complete planets, and beautiful stars, burning and all. Theoretically the vacuum should even churn out a complete solar system one day, identical to ours, with a planet Earth inhabited by people. "In an infinite amount of time, one day, I will reappear", as physicist Katherine Freese of Michigan University once put it. "An crazy thought, but true."
One day the black nothingness should even produce a new Big Bang. Admittedly, we'll have wait really long for it to happen. Researchers of the University of Chicago once tried to calculate it. And according to their best estimates, it should happen somewhere over the next 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 years. That's a one with 1056 zero's. You can count them, if you like.

Given enough "TIME" everything that can happen, will and must happen

PAPER LINKS:
Govert Schilling, Evolving Cosmos (Cambridge University Press, 2004)
Stephen Battersby, "The Final Unraveling of the Universe". In: New Scientist, 5 february 2005

Starvingpercussionist · September 24, 2008, 13:32:13

Quote from: Cleric P on September 23, 2008, 09:36:38
I see where you're coming from, but my point is that infinity in the 'traditional' sense of time and distance without end, is refuted by Zeno's Paradox. I think your use of the word in your post is more to describe your own indefinable subjective experience - in that sense it is not up for discussion of any kind as it's a semantic vacuum which defies any meaningful analysis.

I would also not separate time and 'reality' (define ?) as you have - you say time is illusory, but surely so is 'reality' ? I don't think anything the mind can imagine or experience is anything other than it's own (or possibly shared) fabrication. That I think is especially true of experiences in altered states such as LD and AP. All that truly is, is pure, undifferentiated consciousness, anything else is your own. However, that doesn't mean we can't enjoy exploring our incredible illusions, just don't take them too seriously

Reality is the eternal moment of NOW. Nothing exists outside of it, thus when you "enter into" reality, you see nothing because you become, as you would say, pure undifferentiated consciousness - the appearance of which is something ineffable and undefinable because of the fact that it is infinite and therefore literally has no definition (boundaries, borders, or explanation for that matter). Time doesn't exist except as a mental construct because only the now exists. The mind is an illusion, and it keeps bound what is boundless by the illusion of time. Without time, there is only now - you could only know this if you step out of your mind and experience it. In spite of Zeno's paradox, there is movement. Why is this? My best explanation is that if there were no movement, there would be no time, and thus no world to live in, only pure consciousness in the now (which is what we always have been, and all we ever will be - everything else added to this primal reality is an illusion for as long as we exist bound by the mind's constructs which are nothing more than blocks to "unconditional love", which is the love of all that is).

...But this is all just subjective conjecture.

Alan McDougall · September 24, 2008, 13:51:19

starvingp.

QuoteReality is the eternal moment of NOW. Nothing exists outside of it, thus when you "enter into" reality, you see nothing because you become, as you would say, pure undifferentiated consciousness - the appearance of which is something ineffable and undefinable because of the fact that it is infinite and therefore literally has no definition (boundaries, borders, or explanation for that matter). Time doesn't exist except as a mental construct because only the now exists. The mind is an illusion, and it keeps bound what is boundless by the illusion of time. Without time, there is only now - you could only know this if you step out of your mind and experience it. In spite of Zeno's paradox, there is movement. Why is this? My best explanation is that if there were no movement, there would be no time, and thus no world to live in, only pure consciousness in the now (which is what we always have been, and all we ever will be - everything else added to this primal reality is an illusion for as long as we exist bound by the mind's constructs which are nothing more than blocks to "unconditional love", which is the love of all that is

).

Man!! guy I really like your take on time and concur completely. My post on infinity or enternity a few posts back, shows how linear time cannot possibly be true.

Time is just a measure of hw we move through or reality

Take care

Alan

Starvingpercussionist · September 24, 2008, 19:59:08

True dat.

You know, my heart sinks at the idea of a universe without intelligence. That it would create itself from nothing only to dissipate into chaos again and this is the best estimate our science has to offer for the future, it just does not sit right with me. I believe evolution, not entropy, is the direction of nature. First comes the evolution to forms capable of sentience, then comes the evolution of sentience itself - although the two are actually the same eternal process at work just with different levels of perceivable manifestation. To think that human kind is the only form possible for sentience is just not something I can believe. I think that planets and whole universes even communicate with each other at levels entirely beyond human comprehension. I also think that the assumption that consciousness is a product of the universe, not the cause of it, is the origin of all human suffering - but to fully grasp that requires so much more than just a passing thought, it would require the permanent relinquishing of all thoughts entirely in fact.

Alan McDougall · September 24, 2008, 22:13:06

StarvingP

I am sure the universe is awash with sentient life. Maybe there is a Superconsciousness a sort of cosmic internet of minds evolving into what we call god. The Superconsciousness(Us) becoming God

Even God if he exists cant be Infinite, but must be evolving and striving towards that goal.

Take care

Alan

Starvingpercussionist · September 24, 2008, 22:19:54

Maybe God already became infinity an infinitely long time ago, but then just started over.

By the way, if anyone's interested, I've written extensively about the paradox of infinity here:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_integral_philosophy/a_work_in_progress-t27940.0.html

Synergy · January 11, 2009, 05:13:19

My take on infinity (from visions, meditation and self revelation):

The only time we can seem to quantify as 'real' time is the present.... because the past has happened and is gone, and the future has not happened yet. Right? Think harder... You can't even quantify the present at all!

First lets look at the past and future.... and why there is really no present at all!

How can we know the past has happened at all? Because of the evidence of what was left behind? What if we are in some sort of dream where all the past components were fed to us in one fell swoop? We would never know. Think of the movie Total Recall. We can never know if the past really existed....ever, because memory is just electrical impulses in your brain. And the future?? We instinctively know it's coming, but the only proof we have is experience gained from our past.

The present as it's own entity does not exist. So why do we experience time as linear then? What is this 'present' that we experience? Think of the present as merely a marker that is continuously moving forward on an ever moving wave front. Like an arrow pointing at a chart, but the arrow always moves forward. It does not have a measurable amount of time in and of itself because to do so, the first part of any quantifiable time would already be in the past by the time you got to the end of the measured sequence.... no matter how small a section of time you take, this would be the truth. So then, the present does not and can not exist as an actual 'TIME' segment... it's merely deciphering time into a linear sense for us to better understand things. But if we could step back from things, we'd see the whole chart all at once. It's a bit hard to picture since you can say that the chart has a beginning and end... however, it really doesn't. It's not a line at all.... it's more like an epicenter, with circular waves coming from it.

Now you can argue that the epicenter was created or has a beginning and end... but remember it exists outside of time altogether. It's not an actual physical epicenter that requires space and time to propagate.... it's just the easiest way I could put it into a term that people could envision.

In this same way, space is also an illusion. And science is starting to prove both counts through quantum physics. If no space and no time actually exist but are only illusions that only leaves one pin point of 'something' that is controlling everything. That something is pure consciousness.

Of course I can not prove it... however if you really ponder what I say about time and how the present itself can not exist as an actual time period... then it makes sense. maybe someone else can add something to this to help illustrate what I am saying better because I can see it in my mind but it's very hard to explain!

Alan McDougall · January 11, 2009, 06:18:10

Synergy

QuoteThe only time we can seem to quantify as 'real' time is the present.... because the past has happened and is gone, and the future has not happened yet. Right? Think harder... You can't even quantify the present at all!

You are right about the present, it also never really happens, just when you thing you have reached a moment in time it has already gone into the past

WhIs this what you propose?

Alan

Alan McDougall · January 11, 2009, 06:18:43

Quote from: Alan McDougall on January 11, 2009, 06:18:10
Synergy

You are right about the present, it also never really happens, just when you thing you have reached a moment in time it has already gone into the past

Is this what you propose?

Alan

Synergy · January 11, 2009, 06:53:08

Correct... the present does not actually exist. It is merely an ever moving wave front, but itself can not be measured as a time segment at all. Its only a perception that keeps perpetuating and gives us the illusion of linear time. So if time is an illusion... then infinity is not hard to understand at all. We always seem to think of infinity as a very very long ever increasing amount of time, but we never seem to think of it as similarly the absence of time altogether.

News:

The impossible concept of infinity

healixe