Dear Mustardseed

[Shams Tabrizi]

"Silence is the best reply to a fool."
- 'Ali

Dear Mustardseed,

It is because you are cowardly and afraid that you want me banned aka assassinated. You want to silence me because I pose a threat to your ego, you want to extinguish the light of my wisdom because it obliterates the darkness of your ignorance. You are a murderer who has washed your hands in my blood and bowed before the Whore of Babylon. I am innocent. What crime have I committed? What happened to your so-called "freedom of speech"? You asked questions regarding Islam and I answered them. However, you are embarrassed because I refuted every single one of your baseless claims that you made against Islam. You didn't expect a humble Sufi like me to expose you, but I did. I exposed you for the arrogant fraud that you are. You asked these insincere questions not to learn more about Islam, but rather to incite an argument that you thought you would win. You thought you were a god, but you were nothing more than an idol. You thought victory would be easy, but I ended up turning the tables on you. I have humiliated you in front of your worshipers and I have stripped you of your followers.

Now you want me banned because I defeated you at your own debate and beat you at your own little game. Do I then deserve the blame? I take aim, a man like me cannot remain timid and tame. I do this for the Truth, not for fame. I make no false claims and I expected the same. Tsk, tsk, tsk - it's a shame.

I take my leave and drink from the cup of death. Go ahead and execute me like Socrates, behead me at the guillotine. My severed head, full of divine knowledge and sacred wisdom, will continue to speak. I will no longer possess these lowly mortal eyes, for I will see beyond this world through my third eye floating above. My ashes carried away by the cold wintry wind will bear witness to my words. Like leaves that fall in autumn, tell me, do you know who I am? My name is Shams and like the morning sun I shall rise again. Let me then die as a witness of Truth, Liberty, and Justice. In the words of Sydney Carton: "It is a far, far better thing that I do than I have ever done. It is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known."

Farewell,
Shams Tabrizi

"In between voice and presence,
lies a place where wisdom flows.
In disciplined silence it opens,
with wandering talk it closes."
- Rumi

[Shams Tabrizi]

"They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it."
[The Qur'an 61:8]

I sincerely advise you to read the Qur'an with an open mind and learn more about Islam with an open heart. You will not regret it so long as you do so. There is only one Religion and Path that leads to Enlightenment and Paradise and that is the Religion of Islam and the Path of the Prophets. We were all born Muslim but it is our parents, society, and a multitude of other factors that cause us to go astray and become non-Muslims. I pray that you will soon realize that you were originally born Muslim and that Islam is truly your natural religion. May Allah bless you and guide you to the Straight Path. 'Ameen.

"Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as (if there were) a niche and within it a lamp, the lamp is in glass, the glass as it were a brilliant star, lit from a blessed tree, an olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself), though no fire touched it. Light upon Light! Allah guides to His Light whom He wills. And Allah sets forth parables for mankind, and Allah is All-Knower of everything."
[The Qur'an 24:35]

[Mustardseed]

Dear Shams
While it may to seem that you have "eradicated me" with the light of your "humble" wisdom, and that you have exposed me before my "worshipers", and that you are now being executed as the true martyr that you are, this alone is your point of view. ..............(what planet do you really come from ....comeon tell the truth)

I am sure that you feel great in the role of the martyr, enjoy........ your flowery language indicate your own exalted view of yourself, a sad little Muslim, full of hate, bias and religious dogma, and entirely too simple to have a decent discussion, without resorting to threats of hellfire etc. Quite immature dear Shams......

You have turned no tables, not even a footstool, have changed no minds, nor have you furthered the cause of your religion....on the contrary. You have confirmed the existence of the very stereotypes that most folks tend to judge as "wacko", an irate and half way mad fundamentalist, who is living still.......in the middle ages. Now before you jump to the conclusion that this is a good thing ....and a compliment let me level with you....it is not. 

In the greater scheme of things you are of no consequence, its all just words, and you have really not presented any argument for Islam, other than reiterating the Suras you have already quoted. While you think of yourself as a "fountain of truth", you are exposed to all for what you are, a rather ignorant silly little man.

If you do get banned, (I almost hope you don't ), it is not because of your statements of Faith.....but your abusive tone, and your aggressive attitude. You simply have no respect of other points of view than your own, and prove it every time you post. This kind of Fundamentalist attitude, this warlike and unkind even fascist attitude is tearing the world apart, and it will probably be for that reason that you will be banned, if you do. You simply have no manners......thats all.

While you yourself rave against freedom of speech, in publishing cartoons, or speaking up against Islam, and furthermore, calling for the execution of anyone who offend you, and your religious views, you want freedom of speech to offend others, with racial religious slurs name calling, and whathaveyou.........do you see the point. If not let me spell it out.........you are a religious h y p o c r i t e

You are no sokrates here is a story about Sokrates, for your consideration:

which Socrates claimed to hear a divine voice within himself on important occasions in his life. It was not a voice which gave him positive instructions, but instead warned him when he was about to go astray. He recounts, in his defense before the Athenian court, the story of his friend Chaerephon, who was told by the Delphic Oracle that Socrates was the wisest of men. That statement puzzled Socrates, he says, for no one was more aware of the extent of his own ignorance than he himself, but he determined to see the truth of the god's words. After questioning those who had a reputation for wisdom and who considered themselves, wise, he concluded that he was wiser than they because he could recognize his ignorance while they, who were equally ignorant, thought themselves wise.

You Dear Shams hear no voice, when you are about to go astray, only your own, You Dear Shams are not aware of your own ignorance but think yourself very wise...........no Sokrates by a long shot.

Most people on the AP consider themselves as travelers, ever learning, and I assure you they are very decidedly looking for the truth.....you are not. You believe that you have the "truth", and like Millions of other Zealots, you are willing to kill others for that "truth". You provide no answers, only dogma, and you want others to believe you simply because you say so. You discount other interpretations than your own of this Koran..........you alone have the truth.

I never stated that I was positive toward Islam, or that I wanted to be enlightened by the Koran, I said I was very critical of it. I have seen your kind all over the Mideast, (and yes Dear Shams, I do tell the truth I lived in the Mideast for many years, something you call a lie, something you know absolutely nothing about.  )

So my advise to you Shams is crawl back to your fellow believers, under whatever rock you live,and make your plan, since you cannot get a hold of me, like your people got Theo Van Gogh and others, you will have to settle for ....just getting madder and madder, until you finally find someone you can kill for your God. You seem a very violent and ignorant man....just the right kind of Martyr, who questions nothing but goes down in a blaze of "Glory".

All I can hope is that you come to your senses and start acting as a real human being, and not as a brainwashed brainless twit.

So sad 

In order to have my point explained, please listen to this guy, he is BRILLIANT and explains so well what we are up against

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxbYBIlT6VE

[AmbientSound]

Shams, I have made some modifications to your original post:

"They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it."
[The Qur'an 61:8]

I sincerely advise you to read the Qur'an with an open mind and learn more about Islam with an open heart. I strongly believe that you will not regret it so long as you do so. In my heart, there is only one Religion and Path that leads to Enlightenment and Paradise and that is the Religion of Islam and the Path of the Prophets. It is we Muslims' belief that ALL were born Muslim but it is our parents, society, and a multitude of other factors that cause us to go astray and become non-Muslims. I pray that you will soon share this belief with us that Islam is truly your natural religion. May Allah bless you and guide you to the Straight Path. 'Ameen.

"Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as (if there were) a niche and within it a lamp, the lamp is in glass, the glass as it were a brilliant star, lit from a blessed tree, an olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself), though no fire touched it. Light upon Light! Allah guides to His Light whom He wills. And Allah sets forth parables for mankind, and Allah is All-Knower of everything."
[The Qur'an 24:35]

I felt this would be a lot more respectful towards the beliefs of others. Putting it this way, you don't sacrifice your beliefs in the process and it does not insult anyone by implying that their beliefs are false. I have been in opposition to organized religion since I was in high school. My experience with it wasn't very good and I felt it was time for me to explore my own beliefs. Since then, I have not labeled my belief system and I have not gone back to organized religion. Labels define and categorize things, so I am without them. I cannot define God and I don't know anyone who has or can.

It is nice when others share your beliefs, I know how it feels. Mine change as I continue to grow and learn, but they change less and less as I get closer to understanding truth. I find that the kind of people I wish to be around are those who are accepting of my beliefs, are secure in their own, are non-violent, non-judgmental, creative, insightful, and expressive. Even if they are wrong, I like to hear what they have to say. I don't tell them they are wrong, I just ask them questions that might not have occurred to them- tactfully and respectfully. Because if indeed I am wrong, then I will have learned something and it will save everyone a whole lot of grief and strife.

[Tayesin]

Most interesting. Belief and dogma. The argument of right and wrong.

When will people see that no matter what you believe, no matter what culture you were born to, no matter the indoctrinations of your society, that we are all human beings on the face of this little world who do not act towards each other in a humanitarian way?

We do not see that all people have the same desires and needs, nor do we see that they all have family and loved ones, just as I do, and you do.

We do not see therefore that we are all in the same boat, together but separated; instead of joining forces to row the boat together we persist in continuing archaic behaviors of separation based on some perceived superiority.

Yes religion has a lot to answer for. The past cruelties still live with us to this day, no matter which religion we look at.

So our only hope for a peaceful world is to see clearly what it is that unites us and therefore stop seeing the differences as something to kill each other for.

We are heading into major changes in the way human beings live on this world and if we persist in the separation drive then we will all have less chance of long term survival.

I am sure the Koran must speak of love and peace, as does the bible; both speak about the same god, albeit with a different name, and agree in the fact of a man known to us as Jesus, who is revered in both books?

With this in mind, can we then not move towards seeing the similarities? Can we then not re-unite as humanity?

If not then I am sad to say all is lost, already.

Pray to your God for clarity, for Peace and for the Love and the Light 'He' intended for us to experience but have chosen to live apart from.

Love Always.

[Stookie]

Hi Tayesin,

I don't think all is lost. But I think the internet has given EVERYONE a voice, and some people feel the need to use it as a tool of propaganda, thinking they're saving us, saving the world, saving humanity, when it's actually a wall between us and a true inner experience of something greater.

I grew up in the Lutheran Church where the main principals taught to me over and over when I was young were:

Love
Grace (undeserved love)
Forgiveness
Faith

I find problem with any religion that doesn't incorporate these principals. We were taught that by living by these principals you will live in harmony with the path God has chosen for you. But for some reason, I seem to rarely see them expressed by many who claim to be spiritual. We all want the direct interstate to heaven, but can't seem to live by the most simple of principals. Instead of forgiveness, we see what we view as faults in others and want to "fix" them. But if you can fix your own perception, you can influence by simpling shining your own inner light of compassion.

As the world grows colder, we need to become even more compassionate, like the Dali Lama says.

[galaxy_storm]

Well, I'm afraid that someone who has been taught an ideology since he was born, will take it as his truth and will have great difficutly comprehending or accepting other ideas and/or belief systems, unless he chooses to by his own will. I'm afraid words can't change a person here, experience can.

[RJA]

Shams,

It's interesting that you assert that we were all born Muslim and that there is only one true religion.  But in fact, Mohammed himself didn't even believe that.  He believed that he was a prophet to the Arabs in the same manner that other religions already had their own prophets.  As such he believed that Muslims, Christians and Jews in fact all worshipped the same God and that none of them had to be converted.  During his lifetime, when his people would gain a military victory over an area he would purposely have his soldiers NOT live amongst the peoples and NOT convert them to Islam.  Mohammed's form of Islam was a religious and social order that dictated how his people were to live together as a society.  He purposely did not attempt to convert non Arabs and was content to allow Jews to be Jews and Christians to be Christians.

[Novice]

Shams and Mustardseed-
The previous thread was locked due to inflammatory comments similar to the ones starting this thread. Disagreeing on religion has been happening for thousands and thousands of years. In my opinion, it has also been the cause of more death than anything else. While here, disagree or discuss all points you wish, but do not attempt to 'start a war'. The Acceptable Use Policy of this site is one for all members to abide be, regardless of their religious affiliation.

No one is trying to assassinate anyone or limit anyone's freedom of speech on this site. And name calling is solely a negative response. Both are against AUP. The tone of these posts needs to return to a respectful manner from all members.

[kamals]

As someone who has refrained from contributing to such threads for a while (2 years? I ferget) I need to point out a few things..

The respect needs to go both ways and be mutual, I'm willing to engage anyone here in an air of mutual respect.

Something else:

EVERYONE has conditioned world views that are poorly examined. The spiritual quest concerns

The person who is truly open enough to truly examine other belief systems in their totality is rare, it is contingent on a degree of spiritual MATURITY that makes many such questions irrelevant.

As for arrogance and such, well, everyone who has posted to these threads - Muslim and non-Muslim alike - should really re-read their replies and think about them.

People like Mistardseed are, I am convinced, sincere but rarely take the log out of their eyes and are really convinced that Muslims are utterly wrong, which isn't a "bad" thing it is their world-view, but their complaints would impress me more if they truly addressed the subjective nature of their complaints. It is hard for the arrogant one to notice her own arrogant and more easy for her to notice the equal arrogance of another she argues with, OR MORE SERIOUSLY to PROJECT her arrogance onto another.

I am a Muslim, I am convinced in the deepest part of my being of the truth of the teachings of my faith. To a non-Muslim this may appear as confidence, to another non-Muslim it may appear as rank and offensive arrogance. Now what these teachings are is a different matter; for Islam is highly nuanced, there are MANY schools of thought, ranges of opinion, and such teachings are COMPLEX and HIGHLY nuanced, and whose interpretation has unfolded and evolved in history.

There is a continuum and spectrum of beliefs and ideas and teachings that form the Sufi path and Islam in history. Specific aspects of the Islamic tradition have often been, and often are, questioned by Muslims internally. The range of debate and discussion isn't seen by non-Muslims who are unfamiliar with Islam, but it exists. At the same time, ANYONE who takes an absolute position in today's world is seen often as arrogant, and this is because the modern West's mind-scape reflects a real discomfort with the idea of the absolute, and insists on a sort of relativism that, I believe, is a bane to any real sense of the sacred and spiritual.

But this world-view in itself should be questioned as rigorously as Islam is questioned.

No one with awake eyes and hearts can stand in front of a mountain and not see reflected in it the absolute.

No honest debate between Muslims and non-Muslims can take place without both coming to the table with respect, without being disingenuous.

It is not arrogance for one who knows something to say "I know this" - the word Iman, "faith" or "belief" in Arabic, has a dimension to it that is epistemological in nature. The mindset behind the word is not easily translated into English and since language shapes world-views this is a stumbling block. The Muslim with "Iman" doesn't just "believe" in the English sense, there is a degree of certitude involved that may SEEM like arrogance to one who is unsure of his or her principles, but this more reflects on their state. I am a Muslim who seeks and follows truth and when my soul recognizes truth, it embraces it with a totality. The absolute is the principle, th erelative may be the way in which my subjectivity understands principial reality, but in the mindset of the Muslim is no room for wavering once one has recognized a principle to be true.

If this seems dangerous, or arrogant, I submit with humility that this may reflect more the mindset of the person who thinks he perceives such...

[Everlasting]

All religions suck equally.