Quantum physics: A Spiritual Reality

[Winged_Wolf]

Hmm...personally, I don't believe in the "observer" theory.  I just don't think we are that important.
What I do think is going on, is something we do not understand.  I think there is another explanation for what seems to be happening, and it's something we just haven't conceived of yet.

How do you detect a subatomic particle?  The only known way to do so is to observe its interactions with other particles--and once it interacts that way, it is changed.  So we can never know what it was like before the interaction.  Nor after it.  Only during.
This leaves tremendous gaps in our ability to perceive what's going on, on that level--the vast majority of a particle's existence is utterly imperceptable to us.  That means the vast majority of what we conclude about particles is going to be complete speculation.

How can we possibly conclude that our observation of a particle changes it, when the only way we can ever observe it is to use something to change it?  That is incredible circular logic!  It's not our observation that changed it--it's our changing it that allowed us to observe it.



--Winged Wolf
"I will stare at the sun until its light doesn't blind me, and I will walk into the fire, 'til its heat doesn't burn me, and I will feed the fire...."

[PeacefulWarrior]

I think your missing the point...first of all, this stuff is pretty much factual, I mean everything is "theory"...but it's not that everytime we observe something it changes, it's that our thoughts are so powerful that we actually create our own reality.  That is why in the mental planes we can create our own enviornment.  This is the vein of thought that many, including myself, are following...

[MJ-12]

sd

[PeacefulWarrior]

I don't mean that we create "reality" as in everything we see is all our creation, or all in our mind...I am talking more about what we make of oursleves and our future.  I create who I am, what my profession is, what my goals are, etc.  I firmly believe that we could all avoid being sick, etc. if we truly focused enough...mind over matter type thing....

[Winged_Wolf]

As I said, I disagree.  I don't think we can actually fully perceive reality, let alone create it.
Nor do I believe that observers automatically affect what they observe.  
I still maintain that the change is what allows observation--not that the observation causes change.
Theory means it is not law.  There are reasons it is not law.
None of the conclusions drawn here are facts.  We're both looking at the same set of data, and each drawing different conclusions.  Neither of these conclusions is proven by the data--both are equally possible and valid.
Many long-standing theories have been overturned in the past.  There's a tendency to consider a long-standing theory to be a law, but it is not.
Laws are few and far between.
Einstein's theory of relativity is STILL a theory.  It may still be proven wrong.
So long as there is that possibility, it remains theory.
Newton's laws are clever....they state "unless acted upon by a greater force".

I suspect that the reality underlying quantum physics is something that no one has yet fully conceived of.  That all of the current theories are wrong, and the truth is something else altogether.
This is because all of the current theories have problems that seem without solution.
We may yet solve those problems...or find out that the problem is there because the theory is wrong.

I suspect a missing piece of the quantum puzzle lies in the form of psychic energies.  They are real energies--as physical as any other energy.  What it is that makes them different, and how they interact with known energies, is going to definitely have an effect on current theories.


--Winged Wolf
"I will stare at the sun until its light doesn't blind me, and I will walk into the fire, 'til its heat doesn't burn me, and I will feed the fire...."

[MJ-12]

asd

[Winged_Wolf]

Um, that's what I just said.


--Winged Wolf
"I will stare at the sun until its light doesn't blind me, and I will walk into the fire, 'til its heat doesn't burn me, and I will feed the fire...."

[bitsmart]

Here's my take on this: The Zero Point Field is the field of energy which gives the illusion of matter. As acceleration happens, the ZPF energy (which is enormous, but the lowest possible vibratory state) pushes back on the accelerating force.

This is an illustration of Cause and effect. This has been explained in an article written by an astrophysicist on Astral Pulse. His colleague derived the formula F=ma, and since F=ma is a postulate you're not supposed to be able to derive it. In so many words, this derivation of a postulate proves the existence of the Zero Point Field. They were even able to tie it in to Einsteinian Physics.

Now, the way dimensional reality works is in levels of vibration right? 3-dimensional reality being of the lowest vibration, it's the most dense field of energy (and EVERYTHING is a form of energy.) All energy is connected to all other energy through cause and effect, hence 'a butterfly flaps its wings...'. On the mental plane, our higher consciousness is connected with all other consciousness through cause and effect. Our personal mental state on the physical plane influences the higher self on the mental plane, which influences universal consciousness, which is an extremely integral factor in creating reality, INCLUDING physical reality. 'As I think, my world is created.' It's not as dramatic as, say, instantaneous change like in 'The Matrix' but it happens. This is related to syncronicity, how events, people, places and things in your life seem to 'synch up.' Since all energy can be altered in some way, like universal consciousness, your thoughts do have an influence on your world. If you think you have a crappy life, you definitely have a crappy life, and not the other way around. As above, so below. Physical reality is just not as malleable as, say, Astral reality. That doesn't mean that your thoughts don't count, it just means you can't make a blue elephant appear simply by thinking it into existence on the physical plane, because the energy down here is just too dense.

Still with me? Heh.

bitsmart -
information illumination -
bitsmart@bitsmart.org -

Edited by - bitsmart on 29 March 2002  06:05:39

[MJ-12]

zx

[Violet]

Dear Daniel,

I agree with parts of what you have posted but I would like to present the possibility that the following statements are incorrect:
____________________________________________________
"in other words all the subatomic particles that appear and disappear one millions of time/ sec!"

"That means that if we don't observe the system , it will be spread in the space, otherwise it will get properties of the material itself: it would be the man with his observation to create the material reality, perceptible with our five senses."  
______________________________________________________

What the person was referring to is Heisenburgs Uncertainty Principle.
The moment we know the position of an atomic particle we can not know its tragetory.  This is because the moment we observe something we have changed its course!

I would like to more clearly explain Heisenburgs Principle so you can understand why I think your friends statement may be incorrect.

There is a wonderful website that is very helpful for understanding all this.
http://www-theory.chem.washington.edu/~trstedl/quantum/quantum.html

Hiensenburg's Uncertainty Principle flew in the face of classical Newtonian Physics.  In classic Newtonian physics we believe that we can measure the position of things precisely.  Gravity is king in Newtonian physics but if Newtonian physics applied on the atomic level then electons would fall into the core of the atom like the apple to the ground and we would be able to pin point the exact location of electrons and be able to predict there tragetory, which we can not.  Here is the explanation Todd from U of W used to explain how Newtonian physics works on the macroscopic level but fails on the atomic level.  

Say you see a parked car and think you know exactly where it is and exactly how fast it is moving. But would you really know those things exactly? If you were to measure the position of the car to an accuracy of a billionth of a billionth of a centimeter, you would be trying to measure the positions of the individual atoms which make up the car, and those atoms would be jiggling around just because the temperature of the car was above absolute zero!

At the atomic scale of quantum mechanics, however, measurement becomes a very delicate process. Let's say you want to find out where an electron is and where it is going. How would you do it? Get a super high powered magnifier and look for it? The very act of looking depends upon light, which is made of photons, and these photons could have enough momentum that once they hit the electron they would change its course! It's like rolling the cue ball across a billiard table and trying to discover where it is going by bouncing the 8-ball off of it; by making the measurement with the 8-ball you have certainly altered the course of the cue ball. You may have discovered where the cue ball was, but now have no idea of where it is going (because you were measuring with the 8-ball instead of actually looking at the table).

Heisenberg was the first to realize that the main reason we can not yet understand matter and energy in a unified way is because we do not have an appropriate way of measuring things.  

For example:
Let's say you want to find out where an electron is and where it is going. How would you do it? Get a super high powered magnifier and look for it? The very act of looking depends upon light, which is made of photons, and these photons could have enough momentum that once they hit the electron they would change its course! It's like rolling the cue ball across a billiard table and trying to discover where it is going by bouncing the 8-ball off of it; by making the measurement with the 8-ball you have certainly altered the course of the cue ball. You may have discovered where the cue ball was, but now have no idea of where it is going (because you were measuring with the 8-ball instead of actually looking at the table).  

In other words because of the way we presently look at things we can not see the whole pool table yet. Therefore Heisenburgs Uncertainty Principle may be more of an artifact of our present forms of measurements than a reality.    

You and your friend may be very interested in a gentle man named Steven Weinberg who is likely the closest to finding the best measurement technique to come up with a Unified Theory that brings wave and particle theories at the atomic level together.

http://www.sciam.com/1999/1299issue/1299weinberg.html
I like Steven's quote:
How can we get the ideas we need to describe a realm where all intuitions derived from life in space-time become inapplicable?

How true! How true!

Love and Light to the One and All,
Violet


Edited by - Violet on 30 March 2002  03:32:31

[Violet]

Dear Daniel,

Perhaps a better explanation for how our thoughts affect the future is studies done where physists found that a disturbance to an atomic particle at one location in space and time actually can cause an identical predictable disturbance in an atomic particle in another predictable location in space and time.  A carbon copy response so to speak.

I remember listening to an hour long discussion on this two years ago as I drove through mountain passes in British Columbia and all I could get was CBC radio.  Fortunately this particular 'Quirks and Quarks' episode on CBC radio very interesting and enjoyable.  Otherwise I would know nothing about these particular studies.

This is more the realm of Temporal Physics.  Some physists actually entertain the possibility that this discovery will enable us to do teleportation in the not so distant future.  "Beem me up Scotty!"  

Deepest Regards,
Violet



Edited by - Violet on 30 March 2002  03:34:51

[PeacefulWarrior]

Fascinating info. Violet and those of you who have been so kind to take time out of your lives to respond to my post.  I am definetly coming to a better understanding of these priciples!  I will post some more info on the topic as soon as possible.
-Daniel

[Violet]

Dear Daniel,

I finally found a really cool site that has exactly what I was looking for to explain the teleportation concept.  I love the picture they use to explain everything.  A picture is worth a thousand words.  Please note that beam splitters and polarizers have been around for quite awhile.  What is so unique is the configuration.  

In the discussion following they discuss the sending station.  Perhaps our thoughts can be like a sending station?  

In my previous post I should have said, "Beem a carbon copy of me up Scotty".  Oh Man! I do not know if I could handle multiple copies of Captain James T. Kirk (even if he is Canadian)!  Just joking Jim!

http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics/html/teleport.htm

Cheers to Fascinating Physics! And thanks for the most interesting topic.
Violet




Edited by - Violet on 31 March 2002  19:57:21

[bitsmart]

Ah yes, quantum entanglement. I just discovered this stuff the other night. Here's an interesting little website.
http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/quantum/
Quantum physics/mechanics isn't THAT hard to understand, as long as it's explained with analogies that the average joe can understand.

bitsmart -
information illumination -
bitsmart@bitsmart.org -

[PeacefulWarrior]

THE FOLLOWING was written by a friend of mine, Dr. Conforto.  He is a healer/doctor.  He is Italian, so forgive him if his English isn't perfect:
       "Finally, today we can see the scientific bases of the spiritual research that can explain and produce  a lot of manifestations linked to the ancient spiritual traditions ( illuminations, satori, the river of life , miracles , non-local phenomena, meditations , sense of unity, etc.)
   A big help comes from quantum physics.  Everything that surrounds us is made of atoms, made themselves of subatomic particles, with waving properties. In other words they behave now as particles ( with a mass, a position, and a relation space-time ) now as waves ( with no mass, immaterial, invisible, spread everywhere at the same time in the space ); this duality depends on the observer of the system ( in other words us ) and on the measuring instrument we use.
That means that if we don't observe the system , it will be spread in the space, otherwise it will get properties of the material itself: it would be the man with his observation to create the material reality, perceptible with our five senses.
     Our brain is not able to see the quantum phenomena happening in our body and environment, in other words all the subatomic particles that appear and disappear one millions of time/ sec! What we perceive is only the three-dimensional dimension .
     If we wore " quantum glasses" we would see happen the creation of everything around us, and as if from the nothingness, many particles would appear that exchange information with everything that surrounds us, in an indivisible network: the universe is an interconnected and interacting  reality, so that  a transformed information in a particle would be transmitted to all the others particles of the universe..."

I find this fascinating!  What do "ya'll" think?